All Lives Matter

[Marrow]

33 minutes ago, Perspektiv said:

All lives matter to me, is a rebuttal to dismiss the BLM narrative. 

 

The issue I have with BLM, is it has no clear narrative, nor consensus on what the solutions should be. 

 

Just a very fractured leadership. 

ALM is unfortuanatly used like that. Its not what it stands for, but people abuse it.

 

Agree with everything else here, it just seems like they want to start chaos and are hoping they find some answers

[Marrow]

On 7/25/2020 at 7:43 PM, will123 said:

That seems to be the refrain from them when they are asked about the black on black violence in Toronto. 

This just sparked another memory of why i dont like them so much. Remember when BLM stopped the Toronto Gay Pride Parade (that they were INVITED TO) to make a bunch of demands like getting rid of the cops that marched in the parade? Love how they took over the pride parade and made it all about them.

[will123]

5 minutes ago, Marrow said:

This just sparked another memory of why i dont like them so much. Remember when BLM stopped the Toronto Gay Pride Parade (that they were INVITED TO) to make a bunch of demands like getting rid of the cops that marched in the parade? Love how they took over the pride parade and made it all about them.

Yes they caught a lot of flak over that and it has been a crap show ever since. Were these officers members of the LGBTQ+ community? I never heard one way or the other.

[Guest]

13 minutes ago, Marrow said:

This just sparked another memory of why i dont like them so much. Remember when BLM stopped the Toronto Gay Pride Parade (that they were INVITED TO) to make a bunch of demands like getting rid of the cops that marched in the parade? Love how they took over the pride parade and made it all about them.

Seriously? 

 

Wow. That's borderline like stealing from a charity then posting it on Instagram. Then getting upset you got caught, or justifying it with: "they steal from us!"

 

That's pretty low. You have your moment. Can create many more, but opted to Kanye West (on Traylor  Swift) the heck out of it. 

[will123]

25 minutes ago, Perspektiv said:

Seriously? 

 

Wow. That's borderline like stealing from a charity then posting it on Instagram. Then getting upset you got caught, or justifying it with: "they steal from us!"

 

That's pretty low. You have your moment. Can create many more, but opted to Kanye West (on Traylor  Swift) the heck out of it. 

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/pride-parade-toronto-1.3662823

[Mostly Peaceful Ryan]

14 hours ago, GingerRose said:

Not personally. Do you?

No, and I know many officers. I do know racist, but they are not police officers. 

[Marrow]

13 hours ago, Perspektiv said:

Seriously? 

 

Wow. That's borderline like stealing from a charity then posting it on Instagram. Then getting upset you got caught, or justifying it with: "they steal from us!"

 

That's pretty low. You have your moment. Can create many more, but opted to Kanye West (on Traylor  Swift) the heck out of it. 

Heres the best part, majority of the gay community liked cops.

https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/dominicholden/lgbtq-poll-pride-month-cops-coprorations

Besides isnt it a good thing that cops are there? Instead of butting heads any more now cops and the gay community can come together to celebrate pride or gay officers can take pride from both.

 

Screw that though, right? Why talk and come together when we can blindly hate a group we dont like. 

[Marrow]

13 hours ago, will123 said:

Yes they caught a lot of flak over that and it has been a crap show ever since. Were these officers members of the LGBTQ+ community? I never heard one way or the other.

Im not sure if any were, but it is likely. There is even a group for gay cops called GOAL (Gay Officers Action League). 

[Guest]

4 hours ago, Marrow said:

Besides isnt it a good thing that cops are there?

I don't see the issue with cops being there, supporting their community. 

 

Also, I can only speak for the parade I have seen in my city once. 

 

There were people from all ages, skin colors, etc.

 

Just the arrogance. 

 

You just march  in, when you would have been welcome anyways, and find a way to alienate the police and the LGBTQ community. 

 

The pride parade, is showcasing how you push a cause the right way.  You welcome everyone, and create a safe haven for them, to be proud of who they are. 

 

They need to learn diplomacy, or get a better leader. 

 

I already avoided the BLM march in my city for their tactics. 

 

Refusing a police presence is the dumbest thing you can do. 

 

You have a prime opportunity for dialogue. 

 

They're trying to paint the police as a massive villain, but are coming across as an entitled asshole, instead. 

[Guest]

I am black, but would refuse to fly their banners at my branch, my house, anywhere. 

 

I preach peace. They preach violence  or divisive narratives I just can't get behind. 

 

Being black doesn't obligate me to support them. 

[Guest]

I drove past peaceful protesters, and will gladly honk  and wave. 

 

I am all behind that. Peaceful protests. Diplomacy. 

 

Using bully tactics makes you no different than the types of police officers your group is vehemently against. 

[Guest]

I feel zero pity for the crack downs  on those being idiots. Hopefully they get book thrown at them  

[Marrow]

@Perspektiv Could not agree with you more. Ive been listening to MLK in these times to remind myself that there is a peaceful way, the right way.

[Jusey1]

On 7/25/2020 at 6:42 PM, GingerRose said:

So tell me, Why are you for All Lives Matter?

Because LGBT+ lives matter, women lives matter, Native American lives matter, African/Black Lives Matter, and so on.

"All Lives Matter" is the most inclusive you can get when speaking about support Equality for All, and I support every single good movement that moves toward that ultimate goal. Which means I support proper Feminism, Men's Activist, Black Lives Matter, All Lives Matter, LGBT+ Pride & Parades, and many other things... Why pick sides when you can support everyone? We all have the same long term goal in mind: Equality for All so I don't see any reason to pick any fights with each other.

~Edit~

Should've added that I support all of these movements at their very core. I do not support the hostility that some people in ALL OF THESE groups has done and continue to do so.

[GingerRose]

1 hour ago, Jusey1 said:

support everyone

I do absolutely support everyone, but with this specific issue of racial police brutality, not everyone is hurting, I think that's why people are specific to say a certain race is hurting in this like "black lives".

[GingerRose]

I also think that even though many people in blm can be extreme and not peaceful, I know there are many that are peaceful blm supporters. So we can't look at any group and put a extreme general assumption of the behavior on all of them, likewise with all lives matter and other groups in general.

[Mostly Peaceful Ryan]

31 minutes ago, GingerRose said:

I also think that even though many people in blm can be extreme and not peaceful, I know there are many that are peaceful blm supporters. So we can't look at any group and put a extreme general assumption of the behavior on all of them, likewise with all lives matter and other groups in general.

What are the extreme positions and what are the more rational positions? At what point do you abandon a moviement due to the extreme voices or actions of the members? Am I not suppose to base my judgement on a group by the leaders or speakers of that movement? Instead base it on the most rational position? In this example we have two groups both seem to be for basic police reform, the difference to me comes in that ALM don't tend to believe in the irrational positions that some of BLM members have. To me this makes sense to go towards the group that is more like what I believe.

[GingerRose]

1 hour ago, Mostly Peaceful Ryan said:

What are the extreme positions

You'll have to ask @Arodash for this, they have all the links.

~

Rational, is what my mom does. She stands in a peaceful protest and holds signs like "black lives matter" or "black skin doesn't equal right to kill". She also takes anti racism classes and joins witnessing whiteness programs.

 

I personally don't stand with blm, but stand with its main message. So since I was never in the movement I can't say what it would be like to see the extreme and leave.

 

Lots of movements have poor leaders or are a stage for extreme behaviour. Some choose to leave it and some choose to stay and make it better or give it a new image. This happens with many groups, not just blm or all lives. (marxism, different religions...)

 

1 hour ago, Mostly Peaceful Ryan said:

ALM don't tend to believe in the irrational positions

You'd be very surprised then with my town. Lots of ALM people where I live have very interesting ideas to what their ALM means. I'll get into that later. *right now I am eating chicken and it's hard to type with one hand.*

 

[Mostly Peaceful Ryan]

40 minutes ago, GingerRose said:

You'll have to ask @Arodash for this, they have all the links.

As much as I do enjoy @Arodash ability to find links to various topics, my post was more a question directed towards you spefically. I for example have stated that being open Marxist and following a marxist type framework is something I cannot support. I also in previous threads have voiced objection to "defunding police", which is becoming more of a popular position in the movement. So I was more asking what positions are you finding to be "extreme" and at what point would you seperate yourself from a movement for having people in the movement support these positions.

 

40 minutes ago, GingerRose said:

Rational, is what my mom does. She stands in a peaceful protest and holds signs like "black lives matter" or "black skin doesn't equal right to kill". She also takes anti racism classes and joins witnessing whiteness programs

I would agree with you that your mom seems to be rational in these positions. I have not heard of "witnessing whiteness programs" so I cannot say how I feel towards this programs.

 

 

40 minutes ago, GingerRose said:

I personally don't stand with blm, but stand with its main message. So since I was never in the movement I can't say what it would be like to see the extreme and leave.

I never stood with them, as I recognized that members of the movement were saying things that went against my core beliefs. If Black lives matter, simply meant Black lives matter, than it might be different, but I feel it has grown beyond that.

 

40 minutes ago, GingerRose said:

Lots of movements have poor leaders or are a stage for extreme behaviour. Some choose to leave it and some choose to stay and make it better or give it a new image. This happens with many groups, not just blm or all lives. (marxism, different religions...)

This is very true, it is also why I do research into groups before I give my personal support. I don't want to be in a crowd I don't agree with, because it is giving your voice to be used potentially to something you don't believe in.

 

40 minutes ago, GingerRose said:

You'd be very surprised then with my town. Lots of ALM people where I live have very interesting ideas to what their ALM means. I'll get into that later. *right now I am eating chicken and it's hard to type with one hand.*

Nothing suprises me in 2020.( I was talking about people having sexual relationships with demons and/or aliens in another thread in PP&S).

I tend to think ALM just means, I agree with there being a problem for example deaths like George Floyd should never have happened, but I do not agree with BLM's solution to the problem. If ALM has moved beyond meaning this I will look for maybe something better to seperate myself further.

[GingerRose]

34 minutes ago, Mostly Peaceful Ryan said:

y to find links to various topics, my post was more a question directed towards you spefically.

I mean Arodash and I spoke together specifically on this issue. They had information such as blm people being violent towards all lives matter people and violent in general in the name of their cause. Which to me says more about the individual than the movement, I don't think the movement condones violence.

 

Witnessing whiteness is a program that introduces people to different racial issues and white privilege mentalities.

 

Yea, many movements change from their roots and visa versa from negative to positive and positive to negative. And absolutely, I do the same with researching before associating with anything, I'm quiet the research nerd. My father is upset that I can't be blm, but I don't feel like just saying blm expresses my feelings on the whole situation so I don't use the term blm or associate with it specifically. I do go to protests, but my signs are usually more specific than blm.

 

Your profile photo is the thin blue line, correct?

 

Fair point. Then I shall rather say " you would be interested to hear what some of the alm statements are in my town:"

But the thoughts of many alm people in my town go along the lines of:

1. If a black person is killed by police, they probably had it coming

2. Police do no wrong, they are our brave authority figures, with absolute power.

3. Racism doesn't exist anymore, especially in the police departments.

4. Sure black people get killed a lot by police, but it has nothing to do with race

 

Yes, I'm a unitarian universalist, I'm used to craziness. 😄 Which I guess is an inside joke. In another clarity our minds are so open our brains may just fall out!

 

What do you think is the solution?

 

 

 

 

[Guest]

6 hours ago, GingerRose said:

I also think that even though many people in blm can be extreme and not peaceful, I know there are many that are peaceful blm supporters. So we can't look at any group and put a extreme general assumption of the behavior on all of them, likewise with all lives matter and other groups in general.

I think the issue with this movement, is the fractured leadership at the top. 

 

You need strong leadership, that will denounce acts of rioting. That will focus on the goal and ensure that the goal is firm, or risk others manipulate the movement for their own gain (which is what you are seeing now) . 

 

It's like taking out a strong gang leader. Sounds like a win, until you see the spike in violence, as you now have battles for that void to be filled. 

It just creates a bigger issue. Cities like Chicago are a proof of this. 

 

Most you listen to, have no true clue on how you solve or even address the issue with the police. 

 

They are building and widening a wedge, VS trying to build a bridge. 

 

I see it like many SJW's who bark loud, but when pressed literally have zero clue of what they are talking about. 

 

IE an SJW I know who forcefully scolded me for celebrating Canada day, as the land "isn't mine". 

 

Talking about some of us, "happen to be woke to what is going on out there" 

 

Yet they were entitled, and abusing of that very land and opportunities that this land gave them. Much of which, cannot be had by those they are eluding to. 

 

So if anything, your solution should be to celebrate while honoring them. Help causes that target these marginalized groups. 

 

Some of which face absurdly high suicide rates, in comparison to the rest of Canada to give an example. 

 

Attacking the police fixes nothing. 

 

There needs to be a voice from inside that denounces this.

 

There needs to be some thought on a solution. Or all this destruction is no different than Rodney King's riots. All others after. 

 

A lot of noise, yet little change. 

 

You need leadership and a plan. 

 

So yes. Many are protesting peacefully. But the movement, is not one I can get behind as a black male.

 

The idea is good, so it's a shame. 

 

Bullying and shaming people into participating , VS ensuring your movement makes them feel they have no choice but to, is a start. 

 

[Jusey1]

19 hours ago, GingerRose said:

I do absolutely support everyone, but with this specific issue of racial police brutality, not everyone is hurting, I think that's why people are specific to say a certain race is hurting in this like "black lives".

There's some videos of white people being murdered by the police for just complying with them... But I do agree that it is mostly against Black Lives and thus BLM more so in this situation. These assoholic police officers really need to be fixed and we shouldn't fight each other about it.

[Mostly Peaceful Ryan]

21 hours ago, GingerRose said:

I mean Arodash and I spoke together specifically on this issue. They had information such as blm people being violent towards all lives matter people and violent in general in the name of their cause. Which to me says more about the individual than the movement, I don't think the movement condones violence.

I don't know if I agree fully, the usage of black bloc tactics to me says it has much to do with many in the movement. An argument could be made they are antifa using this tactic, and not BLM. I have seen some voices in the movement speak out against the violence, but I have seen far more in the movement defending the use of voilence. My stance if you are attempting to uses Black Bloc tactics you aren't innocent.

 

21 hours ago, GingerRose said:

Witnessing whiteness is a program that introduces people to different racial issues and white privilege mentalities.

Oh then no, that would not be something I support. I do not believe in the "privilege" argument, as it goes against my belief against collective guilt or generational guilt.

 

21 hours ago, GingerRose said:

Yea, many movements change from their roots and visa versa from negative to positive and positive to negative. And absolutely, I do the same with researching before associating with anything, I'm quiet the research nerd. My father is upset that I can't be blm, but I don't feel like just saying blm expresses my feelings on the whole situation so I don't use the term blm or associate with it specifically. I do go to protests, but my signs are usually more specific than blm.

That is fair, I have spoken to some protesters in my city, but I am avoiding going to the protest as Covid is still a thing.

 

21 hours ago, GingerRose said:

Your profile photo is the thin blue line, correct?

Yes, it is more specifically an officer in mourning of his fallen friend. This year currently 140 officers have fallen in the line of duty, compared to last year which was 147. It is just about to be August, we have 4 months to go in this year and they have nearly passed last years numbers. It seems almost daily, I hear about Officers around the country being attacked, injured (some permanently) and others killed. I have heard of officers being stalked going home as well, which is a dark line being crossed when a person goes after their family. Many read these stories and don't think of the humans behind them, it is a much different feeling when these are your friends being hurt, that you went through training with,  the people that you helped push and in turn they push you to be better. These aren't bad people, but police are being villainized unjustly by protesters, media and elected officals.

 

21 hours ago, GingerRose said:

Fair point. Then I shall rather say " you would be interested to hear what some of the alm statements are in my town:"

But the thoughts of many alm people in my town go along the lines of:

1. If a black person is killed by police, they probably had it coming

2. Police do no wrong, they are our brave authority figures, with absolute power.

3. Racism doesn't exist anymore, especially in the police departments.

4. Sure black people get killed a lot by police, but it has nothing to do with race

 

Interesting, my stance more has to do with actions of the individuals. I am trained to uses the facts of the case to come to an answer on the case, there have been cases like George Floyd which is completely wrong, and other cases in which the officer was justified. If the officers actions are reasonable in the moment and justified, I support the officer. If the officer was not reasonable or justified I don't support them.

 

21 hours ago, GingerRose said:

What do you think is the solution?

There are many problems going on at once, to giving a broad answer to these cases won't fix all of them. For examples better training wouldn't have saved George Floyd, I say this because every officer is trained kneeling on head and neck will result in injury and to not do it. If I say to comply with officers giving a lawful order, I am sure there is a case where this didn't help. That being said, these are probably good places to start for immediate fixes. Long term fixes is different, and depends on the community.

[GingerRose]

1 hour ago, Mostly Peaceful Ryan said:

black bloc tactics

I don't know what this is.

[GingerRose]

1 hour ago, Mostly Peaceful Ryan said:

collective guilt or generational guilt.

It's not guilt. I'm not guilty for my privilege, it's just something I recognize. I do know people who take it as guilt for generations before them, but that's not what this specific program is about when it speaks on white privilege.

[GingerRose]

On 7/27/2020 at 1:55 PM, Skycaptain said:

British police use racial profiling,

Oh yes, not just an American issue.

[GingerRose]

1 hour ago, Mostly Peaceful Ryan said:

antifa

I believe that Antifa is specifically known to condone violence, yes? I just mean that I don't see blm, stating that violence is part of their movement.

[GingerRose]

On 7/27/2020 at 2:07 PM, Arodash said:

ALM

 

Anime Lives Matter

[GingerRose]

1 hour ago, Mostly Peaceful Ryan said:

Covid is still a thing.

 

Yea. Our protests are very small and distanced.

[GingerRose]

1 hour ago, Mostly Peaceful Ryan said:

officer was justified

I am a pacifist so I come to a lot of speed bumps on any justification. But that's another issue.