Kasseb Posted July 24, 2020 Share Posted July 24, 2020 I have not seen a thread on this yet, so, I'd like to start one. Link to post Share on other sites
Madelise Posted July 24, 2020 Share Posted July 24, 2020 13 minutes ago, Arodash said: i'll call them riots instead actually with peaceful protestors being caught up in the cross fire What do you think is the reason they turned into riots in the first place? Link to post Share on other sites
Madelise Posted July 24, 2020 Share Posted July 24, 2020 Just now, Arodash said: Well theyve been going on for over a month now, and I think its oppertunistic people who where there to take advantage of the actual protesters to use them as a shield for their violence Ah. Well, a lot of protests have been going on for over a month now, but it is for a good reason. People aren't going to stop protesting until some real changes have been made. Link to post Share on other sites
Madelise Posted July 24, 2020 Share Posted July 24, 2020 1 minute ago, Arodash said: yeah, except these are riots. Not protests at this point, so far, they havent actually provided any propposals apart from taking funding away or abolishing police which, the places that did so, saw a sky rocket in crime What would you propose then instead of defunding the police? If the police don't get defunded, it would take a whole lot of work to change the system to make it to where it's actually...you know, the way it should be. Link to post Share on other sites
Madelise Posted July 24, 2020 Share Posted July 24, 2020 Don't you think giving them more funding and putting more police out there defeats the purpose of what people are trying to do? A lottt needs to change. Not only is there so much police brutality, but the police also dismiss many sexual assault cases that come through. If I were to get r*ped and go to the police to report it (most likely), they wouldn't take me seriously. Who knows, perhaps I'd get lucky and they would take me seriously, but a lot of people who get sexually assaulted aren't taken seriously which sucks. Sorry, that's going off topic, but yeah. Police brutality isn't the only issue that is the cause of defunding the police. It's many things. Link to post Share on other sites
RoseGoesToYale Posted July 24, 2020 Share Posted July 24, 2020 Any sane country would respond to actual riots by calling the rioting group to the capitol to discuss their demands and figure out how to de-escalate tensions, talk to people and make meaningful improvement on the situation. My country responds to peaceful protestors, even slightly angry protestors, by always having hyper-militarized SWAT teams stationed close by, or all up their faces. That tells you all you need to know. Link to post Share on other sites
Madelise Posted July 24, 2020 Share Posted July 24, 2020 Just now, Arodash said: They should negotiate with terroristic acts? Thats what riotters are. Rioters aren't terrorists. Where'd you get that crazy notion from? Link to post Share on other sites
Madelise Posted July 24, 2020 Share Posted July 24, 2020 1 minute ago, Arodash said: a reasonable nation of law and order responds to riotters by enforcing the law. Because a riot is not a protest, a riot is violent and harms the innocent people, especially the people said riotters claim to represent, no, its a bunch of cowards using it as a shield I mean...The US definitely isn't a reasonable nation so... Link to post Share on other sites
Madelise Posted July 24, 2020 Share Posted July 24, 2020 1 minute ago, Arodash said: I fundamentally disagree Oh brother... 😂 Link to post Share on other sites
Madelise Posted July 24, 2020 Share Posted July 24, 2020 How is the US in any way a reasonable nation? Link to post Share on other sites
Madelise Posted July 24, 2020 Share Posted July 24, 2020 3 minutes ago, Arodash said: We can discuss this in another thread if you like because I will not derail this one, but I will give you 3 words as to why I know my nation is reasonable We the people. I feel like "We the people" hasn't really actually worked out in most people's favor, but okay. Maybe it has for the majority, but certainly not all of the minorities in this country. I've lived in the US my whole life. I know it pretty well. Anyone who isn't white, male, straight, and able-bodied has less of a chance of getting the respect that they deserve. Don't see how that's very reasonable, but okay. Think what you will I guess. Link to post Share on other sites
Madelise Posted July 24, 2020 Share Posted July 24, 2020 4 minutes ago, Arodash said: Like I said I wont derail this thread if you wanna discuss it make a thread or PM in which case i'd be happy to discuss it. Okay. I guess that's fair. Link to post Share on other sites
Kasseb Posted July 24, 2020 Author Share Posted July 24, 2020 48 minutes ago, Elise Jennings said: Ah. Well, a lot of protests have been going on for over a month now, but it is for a good reason. People aren't going to stop protesting until some real changes have been made. What's the reason? 19 minutes ago, Elise Jennings said: How is the US in any way a reasonable nation? How is it not? 9 minutes ago, Elise Jennings said: I feel like "We the people" hasn't really actually worked out in most people's favor, but okay. Maybe it has for the majority, but certainly not all of the minorities in this country. I've lived in the US my whole life. I know it pretty well. Anyone who isn't white, male, straight, and able-bodied has less of a chance of getting the respect that they deserve. Don't see how that's very reasonable, but okay. Think what you will I guess. That's not true and you know it. Link to post Share on other sites
Madelise Posted July 24, 2020 Share Posted July 24, 2020 1 minute ago, Arodash said: Thank you, and let me add, I respect your point of view even if we disagree Well, thanks. That's good to hear 😂 I don't typically hear that, but it's nice to hear that for once. Link to post Share on other sites
Madelise Posted July 24, 2020 Share Posted July 24, 2020 2 minutes ago, Autumn McJavabean said: What's the reason? Real change hasn't been made yet. Police reform needs to happen, if not that, then defunding. 3 minutes ago, Autumn McJavabean said: How is it not? I explained that in the reply to the statement "We the people." 4 minutes ago, Autumn McJavabean said: That's not true and you know it. Yeah, it is true. Are you really going to act like oppression doesn't exist? That privilege doesn't exist? Link to post Share on other sites
gisiebob Posted July 24, 2020 Share Posted July 24, 2020 got anything to say that hasn't been said already? maybe even novel ideas? Link to post Share on other sites
Fraggle Underdark Posted July 24, 2020 Share Posted July 24, 2020 @Elise Jennings I didn't want to pipe in here prematurely, I wanted to give you a chance to build your own experience. I just want to say that if you're the only one supporting your points here it's not because many other AVENites don't agree It's more that a lot of people have built experience with which AVEN debates are likely to lead in endless circles and which are likely to be meaningful. Link to post Share on other sites
Fraggle Underdark Posted July 24, 2020 Share Posted July 24, 2020 1 hour ago, Autumn McJavabean said: That's not true and you know it. It's an underhanded tactic to assume someone is lying and/or secretly agrees with you. Nor does it impress anyone who can see the sincerity and reason of their points. It just gives the impression that you're either overconfident in your ability to read people or dishonest. Link to post Share on other sites
AspieAlly613 Posted July 24, 2020 Share Posted July 24, 2020 2 hours ago, Arodash said: Well, the reform bill Tim Scott propposed was shot down by the House, I'm interested in your opinion of that. To me, it looks suspiciously like Democrats caring more about Republicans looking like racists than police reform getting through. Link to post Share on other sites
AspieAlly613 Posted July 24, 2020 Share Posted July 24, 2020 Just now, Arodash said: Thats exactly what I think it was, that, or because they didnt like the fact that a black man was a Republican, they did call him a token https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2020/06/25/if-democrats-cared-about-police-reform-they-would-have-advanced-tim-scotts-bill/ https://www.cnn.com/videos/politics/2020/06/17/tim-scott-token-dick-durbin-police-reform-bill-vpx.cnn That's disappointing. We (Democrats) should be better than that. Link to post Share on other sites
Skycaptain Posted July 24, 2020 Share Posted July 24, 2020 If people aren't careful the USA is going to wind up with a social system not dissimilar to South Africa in the recent past. One class will live in gated compounds, armed security guards, armoured personal cars, whilst the rest are liable to get murdered for a mobile phone. Link to post Share on other sites
Missing Posted July 24, 2020 Share Posted July 24, 2020 4 hours ago, Arodash said: Well, the reform bill Tim Scott propposed was shot down by the House In favor of a different reform bill that they thought would be better (source). Link to post Share on other sites
Fraggle Underdark Posted July 24, 2020 Share Posted July 24, 2020 Just now, Arodash said: Was that an excuse to call him a token? Whether he is being used as a token has nothing whatsoever to do with what policies the Democrats proposed. Also, saying that someone is being used as a token is not an insult to them. It refers to, for example, people constantly referencing this proposal by the name of its author, who happens to be the only African-American Republican senator. Consider that he might prefer people judge his proposal based on its merits rather than his skin color. 1 minute ago, Arodash said: Personally I liked the bill Tim Scott propposed Cool Link to post Share on other sites
Missing Posted July 24, 2020 Share Posted July 24, 2020 7 minutes ago, Arodash said: Was that an excuse to call him a token? Personally I liked the bill Tim Scott propposed Here's the context of what I was responding to on the last page: 4 hours ago, Arodash said: 4 hours ago, Elise Jennings said: What would you propose then instead of defunding the police? If the police don't get defunded, it would take a whole lot of work to change the system to make it to where it's actually...you know, the way it should be. Well, the reform bill Tim Scott propposed was shot down by the House To me, this made it sound like you were putting forth the position that the House was not actually interested in reform. I was making the point that they were, they just wanted to move forward with a different reform bill than Tim Scott's. I wasn't commenting on Tim Scott being called a token (which as @fragglerock said, is not an insult to the author). I'm also not saying you shouldn't agree with Tim Scott's bill or that you should prefer the alternative bill instead. I'm just supplying additional information to make the point that Democrats are indeed interested in police reform and aren't necessarily only turning down bills because they were put forth by Republicans. Link to post Share on other sites
Sally Posted July 24, 2020 Share Posted July 24, 2020 4 hours ago, Arodash said: most recently, they stormed federal property and tried to set it on fire. https://www.nationalreview.com/news/rioters-set-fire-to-federal-courthouse-in-portland/ https://www.foxnews.com/media/flag-bearing-marine-veteran-recalls-horrific-experience-within-portland-riots Police in the city are being held back by their mayor from enforcing the law Fox News and National Review are conservative-focus media. I've been watching live videos of these protests (from Seattle, know some of the Portland people) and the federal agents from Homeland Security have magnified these protests and essentially kidnapped protesters and shoved them into unmarked vans. Link to post Share on other sites
Mostly Peaceful Ryan Posted July 24, 2020 Share Posted July 24, 2020 23 minutes ago, Mackenzie Holiday said: In favor of a different reform bill that they thought would be better (source). It doesn't have to be one or the other, the bill that republicans put forth had largely the similar things in it as well as the chance to amend it, the bill put forth has no room for amendment. This bill is likely designed to fail as there is no room for amendments, once it fails in the senate Democrats could campaign on needing the seats in the senate. If Democrats cared about the issue and wasn't playing a political games, they would have let the senate bill pass with a majority of things they want, and then debate the rest of the other issues. Either way in this case they get a majority of what they want. 10 minutes ago, fragglerock said: Also, saying that someone is being used as a token is not an insult to them. That is definantly an insult. Link to post Share on other sites
Sally Posted July 24, 2020 Share Posted July 24, 2020 2 minutes ago, Arodash said: I dont think you have any idea how insanely offensive it is to suggest that someone is a token. Or to suggest that calling someone that isnt meant to insult them, it dehumanizes them and boils everything down to their skin color and gives an excuse to not listen to them. Tim Scott isn't a token. His legislation is. Link to post Share on other sites
Fraggle Underdark Posted July 24, 2020 Share Posted July 24, 2020 2 hours ago, AspieAlly613 said: That's disappointing. We (Democrats) should be better than that. Personally I avoid opinion pieces as they're often emotionally-charged, not careful with their reasoning, and lack perspective. I have a subscription to the Washington Post and I really respect and enjoy their journalism but in my daily emails I always scroll past the opinions. I haven't dug into the weeds on this issue, it seems plausible that there were optics involved in the decision not to support the Republican bill, it also seems plausible to me that they legitimately thought they could achieve better reform by advancing a bill of their own. I'm just suggesting that you consult non-opinion pieces (and I'm quite aware you might have already done so). Link to post Share on other sites
Mostly Peaceful Ryan Posted July 24, 2020 Share Posted July 24, 2020 3 minutes ago, Sally said: kidnapped protesters and shoved them into unmarked vans. You mean detained and/or arrested them. Link to post Share on other sites
Skycaptain Posted July 24, 2020 Share Posted July 24, 2020 Think it's about time we all took a deep breath and counted to ten. Same as the hottest fire produces the strongest steel, the hottest debates often draw the best ideas. But please, let's not let things get out of hand, thanks. Sky Link to post Share on other sites
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