My gf is asexual.... why am I the only one that has to change?

[Guest]

10 minutes ago, Anthracite_Impreza said:

Nothing taken, I have no fucking idea what I'm doing with people. I don't think NTs can ever understand just how overwhelming, confusing and downright scary social interaction can be to autistics, especially when we're afraid of negative things happening because of it. We never really know what we're doing, we're guessing our way through interactions day in, day out. It is both terrifying and exhausting.

 

And to counter the "lazy" comment made by OP earlier - 1. "laziness" is an ableist concept and 2. she's probably so exhausted by the daily struggles of being autistic (communication is but one single factor in ASD), she has no energy for anything else. And then she's an ace expected to be enthusiastic about sex??

 

Gods, I feel so sorry for this woman it's unreal.

Yeah I feel like some people replying are intentionally overlooking the fact that she is autistic as a way to put more blame on her 😕 but hopefully they just missed that comment and aren't doing it intentionally.

[Anthracite_Impreza]

3 minutes ago, PanFicto. said:

Yeah I feel like some people replying are intentionally overlooking the fact that she is autistic as a way to put more blame on her 😕 but hopefully they just missed that comment and aren't doing it intentionally.

I almost missed it, tbf. It seems to have been added almost as a footnote, when in reality it changes the situation drastically. Being autistic isn't just a "quirk", it's literally who we are and how we navigate the world. I genuinely don't think the OP really understands autism either.

[anisotrophic]

9 minutes ago, PanFicto. said:

I'm hoping this is just down to you having skimmed the thread and missing the part about her autism, as opposed to insensitivity about the struggles autistic people face.

I think I'd not been considering it much, that's true – it didn't come up until the second page, and the OP framed it as saying that he is always blunt, and didn't seem to consider it a factor.

 

I think it would be a lot more helpful to focus on that as playing a role in bad communications, rather than talking about how painful the sexual act might be. It's enough to say (a) they're failing to communicate (both of them) and (b) trying to fix the issue with unwanted sexual acts, which is bad.
 

27 minutes ago, PanFicto. said:

it merits him saying "no thanks", but instead he let her go through with it for his own sake. It wasn't for her sake. She'd have been much happier if he said he didn't feel like it.

Yes, the OP needs own responsibility to communicate when sex isn't wanted.

As for whether she'd be happier – that might be why he didn't say anything and went along with it. The truth might hurt, avoiding hard truths is a typical communication failure.

Trying to "accept the gift" rather than leave an asexual partner feel even more inadequate – dwelling on the potential magnitude of the sacrifice may be counterproductive, because it's an unwanted gift in the first place – not something to be thankful for. And he needs to say that.

OP needs to introspect and figure out what's actually wanted here. I suspect partners unhappy about being undesired sexually often fail to introspect about what they really want – that's what my own therapy ended being about, it was a lot of work to unpack what I actually wanted.

[AceMissBehaving]

3 hours ago, PanFicto. said:

I just have to say, what you said in your spoilered part is word-for-word what I experienced too in the year or so before the actual abuse started.

 

What's so sad is that for a sexual, sex is often one of the highest expressions of love that brings you closer to your partner. But for an ace, one of the highest expressions of love is being loved with literally no expectations of sex - that makes you feel so much closer and more intimate with your partner. Actually having sex drives a rift and makes you feel alienated from them, makes you feel less close. This is something many sexual partners sadly don't seem to understand when they speak of how much they suffer while claiming the ace never suffers.

 

As the ace partner, even if you're not having sex, you're still in pain knowing that you can never have one of the things that would make you feel closest to your partner: them not needing sex from you, ever, and them being absolutely happy and content with that.

 

So yeah when you're giving everything you can to make them feel connected and loved, it hurts a million times more knowing they don't understand that it's making you feel alienated, alone, isolated, defective. 

 

Then to have people say the ace never suffers, it just.. yeah I wish there was a way they could understand what it's like being on the other side of the sheets just so they could empathize a little better. 

 

Both people suffer deeply, but for different reasons. :c When you can each at least empathize with what it is you are both experiencing (even if that means still never having sex because it's just too hard on the ace physically and/or emotionally, or there might be sex sometimes when the ace is able or whatever) I think yeah that's the key to trying to find a way to move forward. 

 

Because if one person is convinced they're the only one suffering, and the other partner is suffering in silence being totally misunderstood and blamed for all the relationships woes etc.. that's sadly just a recipe for failure and/or long-term suffering and resentment :c

It’s one of the things that bugs me when “compromise” is so often thrown out there like it’s no big deal. A lot of the time I think it’s because even in the ace community it’s not something people have actually lived, and those that have don’t like to talk about it, but it can be hard. Even when it’s not like the spoilered section, it’s still hard.

[KiraS]

So, like, when I said up-thread that appeasement sex can be traumatic, that's from personal experience. Part of the cycle of intimate partner violence I experienced involved hours of fighting and crying, followed by makeup sex in spite of the fact that nobody in the room was particularly into it. Many years later, multiple counselors have gently pushed back on the notion that enthusiastic consent was even possible under those conditions. Certainly the CPTSD symptoms from that dynamic are painfully real. Now that I'm older and wiser, I'll push back even harder and say that consent under those conditions is deeply problematic and OP has every right to feel upset after performing ritualistic relationship sex. (I'm exercising a great deal of restraint in my word choices there, and frustrated by constraints on my expression of disgust at how obscenely dysfunctional the dynamics described here are.)

Is it useful to assign blame here? I don't think so. American culture teaches the wrong things about sexual consent, including @ryn2 's blather up thread about erections, which is exactly why AMAB survivors are often disbelieved. Traumatic sex doesn't necessarily involve some stranger with a mask jumping from the bushes. Bad things can happen in spite of the best intentions of everyone in the room. Feeling obligated to perform sexually is a bad thing for whomever has to do it, and the solution here is not cultivating some sort of misplaced gratitude for it.

(Insert rant about heterosexual mandates for bad sex here. And people seriously question why I'm comfortably celibate.)

[Guest]

The issue communicating something complex like sexual needs to an asexual with ASD are.. 

 

1) They will take everything literally. You say "im upset because we never have sex" you will get an offer of sex most likely as a fix. Because you said that's the issue. So thats the issue and there you go. No depth to it, cause you didn't spell out there was more to it. You cannot be non-literal with someone with ASD. You have to be blunt and literal and spell it out. 

 

2) An asexual already doesn't get sexuality. So, add in being clueless and it being a foreign concept they will never get on on top of the absolutely literal thing...

 

I work with ASD people all the time. That is my day job. And... if I'm being honest, my wife has some spectrum things going on. I have to facepalm often cause I said something and it was taken straight and literal. With my wife, I have to be super careful how I say what my issue is with something because she will take the words at absolute face value and look no further. With my students, directions will be followed to the letter, with no "common sense" interpretation applied. 

 

So if I had to guess, she hears he is upset over no sex. She gives sex. She thinks issue is resolved. She probably doesnt understand why he is laying there frozen. With ASD, such a non-verbal cue would be easily missed. Especially if the words are taken as "I need sex to be happy". 

 

But, it isnt healthy for OP to lay there and have her do that. Even if I think there isn't malice there. It seems a lot more like when I tell my student I'm unhappy because they didn't do / did X so they try to fix it by doing/undoing it. And then in the future they specifically won't do that one thing, in that one way, but will do the same kind of thing. And I have to then break it down for them why avoiding the exact situation isn't the goal, but learning the social reason it wasn't OK is. 

[VNAS]

I cannot belive somethings i have read here. Só... The guy is responsable for the miss comunication because She his autistic. The guy should not have, propose or even accept sex because She his asexual. Whem She offers him a handjob, its like rape... So.. She hás no responsability. The sexual parte is to Blame and  should lay down and still, trying not to show desire , and understanding that because She has a lot of problems , crying is her way of comunication. Oh, right, and She is lazy because She is tired of trying to comunicate during the day. God! Please... Where is personal responsability? If She is not able of being on a relation She should not have One. By her choise. If sex is something só unwanted to her, shouldnt She be in a relation with another asexual person?  

[ryn2]

5 hours ago, KiraS said:

American culture teaches the wrong things about sexual consent, including @ryn2 's blather up thread about erections, which is exactly why AMAB survivors are often disbelieved.

I’ve tried repeatedly to explain that was not what I meant nor was talking about.  I meant that people who have not been in situations where sex was in some way upsetting or traumatic may have a hard time fully appreciating how difficult even relatively minor-seeming instances can be.

 

I am fully aware that arousal is not synonymous with enjoyment and was not in any way attempting to equate them.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, VNAS said:

The guy should not have, propose or even accept sex because She his asexual. Whem She offers him a handjob, its like rape... So.. She hás no responsability. The sexual parte is to Blame and  should lay down and still, trying not to show desire

No. He should say "I don't want that" and not make her go through with it under the false assumption that she is making him happy. She doesn't want it and is only doing it for his sake. She truly believes it's what he wants. She would be very relieved if he just said "I don't want that actually, it won't make me happy". 

 

1 hour ago, VNAS said:

She is not able of being on a relation She should not have One. By her choise. If sex is something só unwanted to her, shouldnt She be in a relation with another asexual person?  

The OP knew she was autistic and that she was asexual when he got in a relationship with her. He is choosing to stay despite his misery, despite her offering that he sleep with other partners as a solution to the problem (it's understandable that he isn't open to that, I'm just saying it's not like she hasn't tried to offer solutions).

 

Also based on your comments about autism, it seems you don't understand it at all. Autistic people have huge issues communicating sadly, it's extremely difficult for them. They also don't understand ques and hints (which the OP already said his partner doesn't understand them ). 

 

2 hours ago, VNAS said:

Where is personal responsability? If She is not able of being on a relation She should not have One. By her choise. If sex is something só unwanted to her, shouldnt She be in a relation with another asexual person?  

One could just as easily say "shouldn't he be in a relationship with a sexual instead of staying with someone who literally doesn't desire sex?"...it goes both ways. 

 

Your comment though shows you have very little empathy or understanding for how asexual (and autistic) people think and feel. 

[TurnedTurtle]

re: crying and not communicating...

 

Communication involves on the one hand, expression, and on the other hand, reception/decoding, and for it to work there must also be some shared common "language(s)" (or a translator). We tend to focus on verbal communication, but of course there a lots of other ways of expression and reception, each with it's own language(s) -- visual imagery, music, dance, physical touch, "body language," etc...

 

I think we often tend to assume that the language(s) we are using to express ourselves are understood by the party we are trying to communicate with, and when it seems that our message isn't getting through, one natural tendency is to try to amplify or otherwise add emphasis to our expressions. But I suspect that very often a lack of sufficient shared common "language" is at play.

 

Certainly, inadequate expression or not being receptive are very common communication problems, as well.

 

I think it is necessary to examine all the components when there is miscommunication...

[ryn2]

51 minutes ago, TurnedTurtle said:

I think we often tend to assume that the language(s) we are using to express ourselves are understood by the party we are trying to communicate with, and when it seems that our message isn't getting through, one natural tendency is to try to amplify or otherwise add emphasis to our expressions. But I suspect that very often a lack of sufficient shared common "language" is at play.

*nods*
 

We also tend to assume that the mechanisms we use to communicate are the same ones our partners use, and that we both use those mechanisms the same way.

 

So, not only may we be failing to get our own points across, we may be misinterpreting theirs as well.

[Anthracite_Impreza]

Because apparently some people don't have a clue, here, I'll even do the leg work for you:

https://www.autism.org.uk/about/what-is/asd.aspx

https://network.autism.org.uk/knowledge/insight-opinion/double-empathy-problem

https://leader.pubs.asha.org/doi/10.1044/leader.FTR2.25042020.58

 

Come back when you've actually read them.

[ryn2]

I really like the way that second linked item explains things, @Anthracite_Impreza.

[Guest]

5 hours ago, VNAS said:

I cannot belive somethings i have read here. Só... The guy is responsable for the miss comunication because She his autistic. The guy should not have, propose or even accept sex because She his asexual. Whem She offers him a handjob, its like rape... So.. She hás no responsability. The sexual parte is to Blame and  should lay down and still, trying not to show desire , and understanding that because She has a lot of problems , crying is her way of comunication. Oh, right, and She is lazy because She is tired of trying to comunicate during the day. God! Please... Where is personal responsability? If She is not able of being on a relation She should not have One. By her choise. If sex is something só unwanted to her, shouldnt She be in a relation with another asexual person?  

Please, for the love of another autistic... we're already told left and right, day in day out, how wrong we always are, how we need to change. How misunderstood we are. How unloveable we are. 

 

And then we try to change... -> "Nono, that's not good enough!"

 

And then you've got the world telling you also: Just be yourself...

Me: *is myself*

World: NOOOO, NOT THAT WAY!!!111ONEONE

 

Don't place your neurotypical values onto someone neurodiverse. Ugh.

 

There are more experiences to this world, than just your own.

[KiraS]

You know what, I don't buy the notion that autistic people can't do and are not responsible for using an affirmative consent model. The problem here is that no one in this relationship is using an affirmative consent model, and arguing for one's favored interpretation of tacit communication is a step in the wrong direction IMO. 

[LeChat]

@Anthracite_Impreza Thanks, for the links. Not that I wasn't already aware of how communication can be difficult for people with Autism, but I liked reading the links. I like the first link; I feel it's good at being direct and seems to be written to be accessible for everyone, in an easy way to understand, not bogged down with a lot of technical, academic jargon.

 

@VNAS 

Quote

...If She is not able of being on a relation She should not have One. By her choise. If sex is something só unwanted to her, shouldnt She be in a relation with another asexual person?...  

Well, having Autism doesn't automatically mean that all people with Autism can't or shouldn't be in a relationship; there are people with Autism who are in a relationship, some with a partner with Autism, too, and some with a "neurotypical" partner.

 

People can't help whom they fall for; the OP mentioned that, originally, they were friends who liked the same things, like games. Not all asexuals are compatible, just because they're asexual; some have completely different hobbies, political beliefs, life experiences due to race or being trans, etc.

 

Plus, as far as research shows, there aren't as many asexuals in the world, compared to sexuals, so it can be difficult for some asexuals to find an asexual partner, who also shares many/most of their hobbies, life experiences, etc. Also, asexuals on online forums and sites skew young; there aren't as many older asexuals for older asexuals to develop a relationship with, so that is also another reason why asexuals might not be compatible.

 

It's not about "blaming" any sexual person in a relationship; it's about trying to explain misconceptions and assumptions about asexuals, those with Autism, etc.

[Guest]

4 hours ago, KiraS said:

You know what, I don't buy the notion that autistic people can't do and are not responsible for using an affirmative consent model. The problem here is that no one in this relationship is using an affirmative consent model, and arguing for one's favored interpretation of tacit communication is a step in the wrong direction IMO. 

They can. But, they have to learn it and consent has to be very explicitly given or not given. A lot of sexual normality is subtle cues for sex, which don't work on ASD. And to someone with ASD "I am upset because I don't have sex" is going to be met with "OK here is sex". To their brain that would be doing the right thing. Without ever being told it isnt the right thing, she wont know. 

 

Their brains are literally different. They cannot help but take things literally and look at things in smaller, direct terms. If one cannot adjust how they communicate, one should not be with someone who is ASD. 

 

My wife can't do subtle. She takes stuff very literally. I've told her flat out she seems a bit like my ASD students. But, we work together to try to communicate. However... if I say "Im upset by not getting X", she will immediately try to do X. And miss the point entirely. So, I have to break it down a lot. 

 

My wife does require explicit verbal consent though. But, she learned the importance of that through bad experiences herself. That one doesn't tend to get taught. Neither of us accepts non-verbal consent. It has to be a yes, I want. 

 

So this relationship OP has, has several issues...

 

1) ASD / NT communication. The way we NTs communicate does not work with ASD. We use a lot of non-verbal cues and underlying meanings. ASD need words to mean what they mean and nothing more. They won't understand there is a deeper issue beyond the immediate lack of something, unless you tell them. They want to. They just... can't read you like that. 

 

2) Asexual / sexual mismatch. Asexuals dont get sex being loving / bonding / nice because they don't feel it like that. So, its trying to learn about a foreign concept that is very alien. And it is a complex one. 

 

So, no, the sexual shouldn't give up. But, should

 

1) Tell her no when he doesn't want what she offers. Unhealthy sex that neither wants is not helping anyone. 

 

2) Explain to her that the unwanted sex is hurting. Put in a boundary. I would say she has to ask and get a yes to proceed. 

 

3) Set aside time to discuss the issue. At this point, I would recommend therapy and Journaling tbh. They can't discuss it without high emotions, so write it out and let each other reply in their own time. But demand replies happen say weekly. 

 

4) Lay out what they think compromise means. I just get a reply of compromise! But... as in what? She offered several already. OP needs to say what compromise they need of her. 

 

She doesnt have to give more sex if it is too much. OP doesn't have to stay if being with her is too hard. But, they both have to talk if they want to work it out. And trying to talk to her like a NT is not going to work well. 

 

 

Edit: And before we get into it, I think subtle non-verbal cues for consent is silly for anyone. Consent is vital and trusting you can read body language of someone else to get it... is just bleh. 

 

[Guest]

7 hours ago, Serran said:

Edit: And before we get into it, I think subtle non-verbal cues for consent is silly for anyone. Consent is vital and trusting you can read body language of someone else to get it... is just bleh. 

 

Overal, expecting a partner to mind-read you, is toxic as bleeeeeeeeeeeeeeep

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Phoenix the II said:

Overal, expecting a partner to mind-read you, is toxic as bleeeeeeeeeeeeeeep

Well. True. But, for the most part, non-verbal works for sex in an established relationship. Which is why people don't go further. Some even find needing to make it clear "unsexy"... but the few times it doesn't work can be quite traumatic to people. 

[SithLord]

3 hours ago, Phoenix the II said:

Overal, expecting a partner to mind-read you, is toxic as bleeeeeeeeeeeeeeep

 

1 hour ago, Serran said:

Well. True. But, for the most part, non-verbal works for sex in an established relationship. Which is why people don't go further. Some even find needing to make it clear "unsexy"... but the few times it doesn't work can be quite traumatic to people. 

It sucks because non-verbal communication is very common in so many ways. It's something my partner and I have struggled with in several ways. I say something, mean something not quite literal, he takes it literally, we get into a fight over him not understanding and us figuring out where the miscommunication happened. Rinse and repeat for times when I don't understand what he's trying to say, or general body language problems. 

 

It's one of the reasons I loved the "Yes means yes" movement, because it was trying to prioritize obvious and direct consent that isn't a misunderstanding. Even though most people may pick up on the "I'm holding your hand while kissing you, so that means I want sex," not everyone will, and I think eliminating the weird stigma we have against being blunt and honest would be a huge positive. 

[KiraS]

Non-verbal communication is kind of like operating a motor vehicle without a seatbelt. It works fine up to the point where something bad happens. 

 

Curiously my rapey and abusive ex was all about non-verbal communication, probably because it offered her maximum opportunities to play Calvinball with boundaries. 

[banana monkey]

19 hours ago, Serran said:

. Some even find needing to make it clear "unsexy"...

I now realise this was part of the issue in my last relationship. ex has aspergers. I absolutely agree in verbal consent for sex. we never got that far (neither of us raised wanting it) but in order to be clear due to autism and uk sex laws about capacity etc. I was fully intending that. However, there were many times I tried to initiate a cuddle when I desired one and he would back away so I took that to mean he didnt desire one at that time and backed off. When he wanted one he would ask directly and verbally and I would agree but him doing that would instantly kill any desire I had for one in one second, so it wasnt that nice. It kind of like "do you want a cuddle?/I want a cuddle" - I'm ok with that, (I did want one but I kind of dont now you have asked.) I needed it to just happen, it was romantic to me that way and kept the mood going. There was one day, when I felt like kissing, We kept moving around each other, and there was some thing about it which made me realise it may just be he didnt know what I wanted so later (in another room), I told him why I was acting like that and he said ok. Wasnt as romantic as I hoped but it happened and was nice (I think it was the first time). In the end, longterm, I needed things to happen non verbally to keep the romantic attraction alive so it began to die away and wasnt worth staying when it became clear we may want different futures.