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Mississippi votes to design new flag without confederate emblem!

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AspieAlly613

Good news.  The Mississippi legislature voted to design a new flag, with the following two rules:

 

1)  The flag must not include the confederate emblem.

2)  The flag must include the phrase "In G-d we trust" somewhere on the flag.

 

CBS news story here

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SithApprentice

While I'm not a fan of the Christian logo being a requirement, I think the Confederate symbolism takes priority. I'm also glad it was voted on rather than just being something pressured by protestors. 

 

My friend and I talked a little about that kind of thing last night. That change like the removal/alterations of a statue or group or whatever should be decided on by the locals or owners. So if it's Mississippi's flag, the people should vote on it to decide if they want it changed or not. If it's a statue, the locals should be the ones to make the decisions, rather than protestors who can come from wherever. If it's a mascot, the company has the right to decide.

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Philip027

The mere fact that it took all this Floyd/BLM stuff for this to happen makes this feel even more like a meaningless platitude than it already would have, rather than a legitimate show of good faith.

 

So, not impressed, basically.  To me it's akin to people suddenly offering their "prayers" after a tragedy or disaster where thousands of people die.  Fat lot of good that's going to do for the dead, or their loved ones.

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GingerRose

When there's a win, there'll always be a lose I suppose, in someone's eye at least.

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SithApprentice
2 minutes ago, GingerRose said:

When there's a win, there'll always be a lose I suppose, in someone's eye at least.

I consider it compromise. Most solutions don't end with everyone happy. 

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GingerRose
43 minutes ago, SithEmpress said:

I consider it compromise. Most solutions don't end with everyone happy. 

Quite right

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Skycaptain

Now which members of their legislature have shares in flag manufacturers and similar companies? 😋 😋 

 

What about people who don't believe in god, have been harmed either for their beliefs, by people within the church acting illegally etc. 

By all means remove what has become a symbol of slavery, but don't replace it with something else which will cause offence to other members of the population. 

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Still

"In God we trust" isn't even some historical phrase, it's just Cold War-era propaganda.

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Arodash
1 hour ago, Still said:

"In God we trust" isn't even some historical phrase, it's just Cold War-era propaganda.

When I start my own nation the currency will say "In Arodash we Trust" and in smaller print "regrettfully" and instead of some regal looking picture its just a picture of me smiling and giving finger guns

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daveb

It is a symbolic gesture, which isn't meaningless. It is a bit late, but better late than never. I think it's good they decided to remove the Confederate flag, but not so good to require "In God we trust" in the new design. I'd rather see that phrase removed from all of our money and any other public emblems, symbols, etc.

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pickles mcgee

Ack!  Don't they know about the five principles of good flag design???

 

1. Keep It Simple.  The flag should be so simple that a child can draw it from memory.

2. Use Meaningful Symbolism.  The flag’s images, colors, or patterns should relate to what it symbolizes. 

3. Use 2 or 3 Basic Colors.  Limit the number of colors on the flag to three which contrast well and come from the standard color set. 

4. No Lettering or Seals.  Never use writing of any kind or an organization’s seal.

5. Be Distinctive or Be Related.  Avoid duplicating other flags, but use similarities to show connections.

 

(from "Good Flag, Bad Flag" https://nava.org/good-flag-bad-flag/)

 

Mississippi is thinking of swapping out the Confederate battle flag for the state seal, which includes the words "In God We Trust," thereby breaking both rules contained in number 4.  

 

You can sometimes disregard one of the five principles and still have a gorgeous flag (Colorado's state flag, for example, uses the letter "C"), but any time you use a state's entire state seal you are looking at one ugly flag.  Mississippi will have the rare opportunity to begin anew and design an eye-poppingly gorgeous flag, but it looks like they're going to throw that away and trade an offensive graphic for an offensive motto.  "In God We Trust" endorses religion and implies that nonbelievers are second-class citizens.

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Arodash
52 minutes ago, pickles mcgee said:

Ack!  Don't they know about the five principles of good flag design???

 

1. Keep It Simple.  The flag should be so simple that a child can draw it from memory.

2. Use Meaningful Symbolism.  The flag’s images, colors, or patterns should relate to what it symbolizes. 

3. Use 2 or 3 Basic Colors.  Limit the number of colors on the flag to three which contrast well and come from the standard color set. 

4. No Lettering or Seals.  Never use writing of any kind or an organization’s seal.

5. Be Distinctive or Be Related.  Avoid duplicating other flags, but use similarities to show connections.

 

(from "Good Flag, Bad Flag" https://nava.org/good-flag-bad-flag/)

 

Mississippi is thinking of swapping out the Confederate battle flag for the state seal, which includes the words "In God We Trust," thereby breaking both rules contained in number 4.  

 

You can sometimes disregard one of the five principles and still have a gorgeous flag (Colorado's state flag, for example, uses the letter "C"), but any time you use a state's entire state seal you are looking at one ugly flag.  Mississippi will have the rare opportunity to begin anew and design an eye-poppingly gorgeous flag, but it looks like they're going to throw that away and trade an offensive graphic for an offensive motto.  "In God We Trust" endorses religion and implies that nonbelievers are second-class citizens.

Are you saying the flag of Maine is ugly????? :( ours is our coat of arms and I like the look

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nanogretchen4

Mississippi's State bird is the mockingbird. Their State reptile is the alligator. Their State fossil is prehistoric whales, which is kinda cool. But really the most remarkable thing about Mississippi is how fun/challenging it is to spell. Their State insect is the western honeybee, which also reminds me of spelling bees, so I think they should replace the flag of our country's defeated enemy with a honeybee. It would be an all around cuter and friendlier flag.

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Arodash
3 minutes ago, nanogretchen4 said:

Mississippi's State bird is the mockingbird. Their State reptile is the alligator. Their State fossil is prehistoric whales, which is kinda cool. But really the most remarkable thing about Mississippi is how fun/challenging it is to spell. Their State insect is the western honeybee, which also reminds me of spelling bees, so I think they should replace the flag of our country's defeated enemy with a honeybee. It would be an all around cuter and friendlier flag.

I think it'd be cool of they incorporate the mockingbird into their flag! They can make this an awesome reinvigoration thing for their state

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Mostly Peaceful Ryan

It's good but I don't pay attention to state flags. I only really know 3 state flags, that is Maryland (my state flag and my favorite), Texas (because Texans put that flag on everything), and California (because it has a bear on it).

 

6 hours ago, Still said:

"In God we trust" isn't even some historical phrase, it's just Cold War-era propaganda.

Wrong, it was originally added to the two cent piece under Abraham Lincoln in 1863. In 1862 it was adopted by the 125th Pennsylvania infanty as their motto. It was originally added to the New Westiminster coat of arms in canada in 1860. It was officially adopted as the by the united states as their motto in 1956 as defiance against communist persecution of religion around the world at the time. So you could say it has been used cold war era propoganda, but to say it is not historical phrase in the US is a flat out untrue. 

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nanogretchen4

I think it's the Pledge of Allegiance that is Cold War propaganda. 

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Arodash
4 minutes ago, nanogretchen4 said:

I think it's the Pledge of Allegiance that is Cold War propaganda. 

The Pledge of Allegiance was created in 1892 that was about 50 years give or take before the Cold War we saw the widespread use of the Pledge during World War 1

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Mostly Peaceful Ryan
19 minutes ago, nanogretchen4 said:

I think it's the Pledge of Allegiance that is Cold War propaganda. 

Yes if you are referring to the "Under God" phrase. It was added to the Pledge in 1954 for the same reason of religious persecution in communist countries. The Soviet Union killed many for their religious beliefs, this pushed America to take a stance in favor of religious freedom. I wouldn't say this propoganda so much as a stance against the evils of communism.

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Mostly Peaceful Ryan
9 minutes ago, Arodash said:

The Pledge of Allegiance was created in 1892 that was about 50 years give or take before the Cold War we saw the widespread use of the Pledge during World War 1

You are correct, but I believe they were referring to the addition of the phrase "Under God" added in 1954. 

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Arodash
3 minutes ago, Mostly Peaceful Ryan said:

You are correct, but I believe they were referring to the addition of the phrase "Under God" added in 1954. 

I just drop the under god when I say, because the rest of it I believe in with all my heart

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Still

Hmm, turns out I'd conflated ”In God we trust” with the ”under God” addition in my mind for years. Doesn't really matter too much to me, since either way I'm an antitheist who thinks religion has no place in government.

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Woodworker1968

Well, Mississippi can keep the "in God we trust" thing as far as I care, because I don't live in Mississippi and I have no plans to travel there. If the locals want to trust in a deity who's not a nice guy, it's none of my business. They can put a hand giving the middle finger on their state flag for all I care.

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Arodash
15 minutes ago, Woodworker1968 said:

trust in a deity who's not a nice guy

I don't think our brothers and sisters on this website who are members of states that believe in the judeo-christian god would appreciate you insulting their religious belief

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nanogretchen4

Interestingly, all 50 States have freedom of religion and freedom of speech.

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Arodash
2 minutes ago, nanogretchen4 said:

Interestingly, all 50 States have freedom of religion and freedom of speech.

Interestingly. Aven is meant to be a place of civility. Not insults 

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SithApprentice
4 hours ago, pickles mcgee said:

1. Keep It Simple.  The flag should be so simple that a child can draw it from memory.

I can't draw CA's, but that's because I can't draw a bear. I know it's there, I just can't draw it. :( 

It also contains words, but I think it's still fine. 

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SithApprentice
1 hour ago, Arodash said:

I don't think our brothers and sisters on this website who are members of states that believe in the judeo-christian god would appreciate you insulting their religious belief

You can interpret that to be not a "nice guy" if you want. As in the internet version of the name to refer to assholes who pretend to be nice.

 

Though since the Bible says women are objects that should be subservient to their husbands and that rapists should be punished by being forced to marry their victim and that a slave owner only needs to be punished for beating their slaves if the slave dies in a couple days, then I think "not a nice guy" is an adequate description of them to say the least.

He did decide to murder the vast majority of the world's population in Noah's flood, screw up people's language so they could no longer work together and get along so well, and order the mass murder of the Canaanites. Also call for the human sacrifice of his son/his human embodiment according to Christians.

 

Also, it's not a personal insult to comment about a religious figure. No one's being personally attacked here because it's the person's choice to be offended for the sake of some deity. Honestly I think they should brush off any insults from atheists and antithesists as us eventually getting what's supposedly coming to us. If you believe in the God of the Bible, or Islam, or Judaism, you believe in a heaven we're not likely to be accepted into (hell is something less commonly believed in, funnily enough) and thus our insults only add to our eventual list of transgressions when we meet Saint Peter at the gate, yeah? 

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Arodash
1 minute ago, SithEmpress said:

Also, it's not a personal insult to comment about a religious figure. No one's being personally attacked here because it's the person's choice to be offended for the sake of some deity. Honestly I think they should brush off any insults from atheists and antithesists as us eventually getting what's supposedly coming to us. If you believe in the God of the Bible, or Islam, or Judaism, you believe in a heaven we're not likely to be accepted into (hell is something less commonly believed in, funnily enough) and thus our insults only add to our eventual list of transgressions when we meet Saint Peter at the gate, yeah? 

For many. To insult their god, is. A direct insult to them, and a good christian person would never the less pray for the salvation of all people. I was just pointing out that we have tried to foster a culture of acceptance and tolerance on here yeah? So we shouldnt insult other people's belief. 

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SithApprentice
2 hours ago, Arodash said:

For many. To insult their god, is. A direct insult to them,

I would view this as being self-conscious about their beliefs. If I truly believed in an omnicient, omnipresent, and omnipotent god, I wouldn't care about others commenting negatively about them. As I said, it would be one more step down the ladder to hell, or at least not into their vision of heave. 

 

2 hours ago, Arodash said:

I was just pointing out that we have tried to foster a culture of acceptance and tolerance on here yeah? So we shouldnt insult other people's belief. 

I will not tolerate those who are intolerant. I will not accept those who are unaccepting. I am neutral to a person when I first meet them and decide how to judge them from there. But the Abrahamic religions preach the opposite of acceptance and tolerance and many today use their religion as a defense to be unaccepting and intolerant. So if one embraces those beliefs, to me they've lowered themselves in my eyes. Like how one might dislike someone for being a feminist because of the label feminism stretching to encombass feminazis as much as people for actual equality. 

 

I will respect individuals but I will not respect horrible ideas or beliefs. 

 

Besides, you took offense at someone calling him "not a nice guy". That's hardly calling him something actually insulting. Referring to the god of the Bible as a Sky Daddy, a joke, a murderer, or other things would be considered actually offensive. 

 

Also one has to wonder if it's an insult if it's true. 

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pickles mcgee
5 hours ago, Arodash said:

Are you saying the flag of Maine is ugly????? :( ours is our coat of arms and I like the look

There are 29 states that have what is called "a seal on a bedsheet" as their state flag, meaning they have the state seal or coat of arms on a plain (usually blue) background (it does not mean harbor seals jumping on the bed, which would be adorable).  State seals and coats of arms are detailed pieces of art, which means they are hard to see from a distance, and hard to distinguish from one another.  But everything comes down to personal taste and preference.  In my opinion, the Maine flag is better than the Oregon flag, the state I live in now and am crazy about.  Oregon has one of the worst "seal on bedsheet" flags around (but is cool and ninja in one respect: it is a two-sided flag, with a beaver on the back. :ph34r:)  Still, I consider "seal on bedsheet" flags dull and unimaginative for the most part.

 

5 hours ago, nanogretchen4 said:

Mississippi's State bird is the mockingbird. Their State reptile is the alligator. Their State fossil is prehistoric whales, which is kinda cool. But really the most remarkable thing about Mississippi is how fun/challenging it is to spell. Their State insect is the western honeybee, which also reminds me of spelling bees, so I think they should replace the flag of our country's defeated enemy with a honeybee. It would be an all around cuter and friendlier flag.

I LOVE THE WAY YOU THINK!!

 

5 hours ago, Arodash said:

They can make this an awesome reinvigoration thing for their state

Exactly what I've been saying!  But from what we've heard so far they are going to botch the chance.  In my opinion the best flag design bar none is New Mexico's (simply, striking, meaningful, memorable), and Alaska's is second.  They held a contest in Alaska for their flag design, and the winner came from a 13-year-old.  How awesome is that?

 

3 hours ago, Woodworker1968 said:

Well, Mississippi can keep the "in God we trust" thing as far as I care, because I don't live in Mississippi and I have no plans to travel there. If the locals want to trust in a deity who's not a nice guy, it's none of my business. They can put a hand giving the middle finger on their state flag for all I care.

My bold.  It would be just my luck to be an atheist living in a very religious state that voted to put "In God We Trust" on the state flag.  It was just my luck to live in Utah for 31 years (the only state less religious than Mississippi, but not by much), and I didn't realize at the time that I should just be grateful we had a "seal on bedsheet" flag and not a religious one.  Thank you, Utah!  Even if the majority of Mississippians votes for "In God We Trust," I still care about the nonreligious who live there, and those who care about the separation of church and state.

 

1 hour ago, SithEmpress said:

I can't draw CA's, but that's because I can't draw a bear. I know it's there, I just can't draw it. :( 

It also contains words, but I think it's still fine. 

I was born and raised in California and have quite a fondness for the flag.  I also really like Wyoming's flag with the bison silhouette.  Both of these state flags are very distinctive.  I don't think California necessarily needed to put its name, but the fact that they also put "Republic" is so cool that I give my home state not only a pass but an enthusiastic thumbs up.

 

5 hours ago, Mostly Peaceful Ryan said:

I only really know 3 state flags, that is Maryland (my state flag and my favorite), Texas (because Texans put that flag on everything), and California (because it has a bear on it).

Maryland's flag is distinctive, I'll give it that.  People usually either love it or hate it; I'm in the latter group.

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