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Asexual and intersex?


Skycaptain

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21 hours ago, will123 said:

 

On your second comment, my nudist friend has lost all his head hair but is very hirsute on the rest of his body. Must be something genetic?

Genes has a role in this. So does ethnicity. So does testosterone (or in AFAB oestrogen) levels. Using me as an example here I'm AMAB, but hormonal levels and other physical stigmata mean that I fall within the definition of, and identify as, intersex. Typically this would result in minimal axillary hair, true, and an absence of temporal recession and male-pattern baldness, not true. So for me scalp hair is genetic, whilst body hair is hormonal in the main 

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WrenIsNotMyRealName!!
4 hours ago, Skycaptain said:

hormonal levels and other physical stigmata mean that I fall within the definition of, and identify as, intersex

From my understanding, I thought intersex isn't something you can choose to identify as. It's someone born with both genitalia.

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@WrenIsNotMyRealName!!, intersex is a variable condition, ranging from undervirilisation to partial duality of genitalia. There's also things like chromosomal intersex, hormonal intersex. Some people who fall within the official definition of intersex identify as female or male. 

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WrenIsNotMyRealName!!
6 minutes ago, Skycaptain said:

@WrenIsNotMyRealName!!, intersex is a variable condition, ranging from undervirilisation to partial duality of genitalia. There's also things like chromosomal intersex, hormonal intersex. Some people who fall within the official definition of intersex identify as female or male. 

But chromosomes don't dictate gender after birth. And the way you're describing it sound like someone can have slightly more estrogen than they should(as a born male) and they can call themselves intersex. As an asexual, my hormones don't match up with the typical male so I'm intersex too?

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@WrenIsNotMyRealName!!, can you give me a few minutes. I'm going to my desktop to create a new topic here before we derail the thread 

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WrenIsNotMyRealName!!

I am here.

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There's a huge variety of intersex conditions. Some people have chromosome polysomies such as XXY, who in the main present as AMAB, albeit with varying stigmata of undervirilisation. However in a very rare circumstance XXY people present as female and have born children. There's at least one family where an XXY female has born another XXY AFAB child, who's also fertile. 

The book Intersex by Catherine Harper, ISBN 978-1-84520-183-8 is good reading, as is Between XX and XY by Gerald N Callaghan, ISBN 978-1-53652-793-2, 

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Then we have XX male, fragile X, CAH and other conditions. 

In my case, whilst I'm AMAB, my testosterone level is 6.8nMol/l, an underdeveloped larynx - I sound female over the phone for example. 

In more extreme cases intersex people can have malformed testes and streak ovaries. 

True hermaphroditism is almost unheard of but probably has happened somewhere 

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Janus the Fox

I'm Intersex because I was born with a mild genital Intersex condition, surgically repaired young.  I've been tested to have a higher similar level of Prolactin as women despite being the male sex, tested 10 years apart, before and after getting fit and healthy weight.  I've later discovered to be Agender and wish to transition into a body fitting of someone lesser male or moderately female.  Unfortunate that such a repair on Intersex genitalia, the option for further surgery does not exist.

 

The repair made in the early 1990s did not account for the possibility of a gender different child growing older, such repairs are not hasty made these days.  Over the years Puberty development where delayed and the body didn't exactly develop into a typical male and that of testis and penile development where 5 years late.

 

Psychological development meant I've never developed a sexuality at all, nor any social skills typical of an Autistic with mild learning difficulties, delayed development in key skill areas year on year.  Development in tsexuality came with a sudden awareness made 10 years ago at the age of 23, 10 years late where the awareness usually begins.  No further psycho-sexuality ever developed since and over this time learned more about sexuality and asexuality.

 

I'd like to explore gender further since all of the above can point toward something like a Klienfelters Syndrome or other XXY condition before sticking to a gender transition.

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Interesting topic. I did some research on the subject after it came up in the LGBT+ discussion.

 

I was probably aware of intersex persons some time before I found out about asexuality. That is saying something as I hadn't really been exposed to much LGBT+  subjects until I joined AVEN.

 

(I apologize for what follows as I'm going by memory and may not have the correct terminology).

 

I read a newspaper article about issues in Australia with intersex persons. Patients that had been born as boys but 'non-typical' penises (short?) or injury due to 

Spoiler

botched circumcision procedures were surgically altered to be female.

Years later these people were suffering psychological troubles. 

 

 

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@will123, there was a rather infamous case in Canada where this happened. I can't cite at the moment because all my reference books are at home, but the end result was that the person concerned couldn't cope with the dysphoria etc and ultimately committed suicide 

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Janus the Fox
2 hours ago, Skycaptain said:

@will123, there was a rather infamous case in Canada where this happened. I can't cite at the moment because all my reference books are at home, but the end result was that the person concerned couldn't cope with the dysphoria etc and ultimately committed suicide 

I heard of this, the case of David Reimer was a botched Circumcision lead to losing that part entirely.  Because he was also a Twin, he became the subject of a psychological experiment to disprove gender dysphoria by a means to force female gender transition and roles by questionable means.  Both twins where deeply affected as the parents had to keep the secret for years.  It’s become an important study that wouldn’t be repeated again as it otherwise proves gender dysphoria exists.

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28 minutes ago, Janus DarkFox said:

I heard of this, the case of David Reimer was a botched Circumcision lead to losing that part entirely.  Because he was also a Twin, he became the subject of a psychological experiment to disprove gender dysphoria by a means to force female gender transition and roles by questionable means.  Both twins where deeply affected as the parents had to keep the secret for years.  It’s become an important study that wouldn’t be repeated again as it otherwise proves gender dysphoria exists.

You'll hear absolutely horrible things where doctors assign genders at birth, then force intersex people to constantly keep coming in for treatment because they experience discomfort with their genitalia (because of the gender assignment surgery they experienced at birth) and need to have it 'fixed'. A lot of doctors barely understand what being intersex means and they'll often try to force a 'solution' on newborn infants which leads to gender dysphoria later on. It's kind of sickening to me.

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WrenIsNotMyRealName!!

Ok but it still sounds like literally everybody is intersex if their hormones are just slightly out of norm. I mean, all asexuals are intersex, by these standards, because we don't have those damned sex hormones being pumped into us.

 

My point is, I thought intersex was about the physical body rather than just simply hormones because hormones don't count as anything in my eyes.

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@WrenIsNotMyRealName!!The vast majority of people who identify as Asexual have entirely normal hormone levels.

 

Hormones are part of intersex, because undersecretion affects the physical development of the body, particularly during puberty. 

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Janus the Fox

A small reminder that sex hormones itself do not control sexuality.  Majority of Asexuals do not have a sex hormone imbalance and those that may have an issue, usually have other health problems not connected to sexuality or libido

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8 hours ago, WrenIsNotMyRealName!! said:

My point is, I thought intersex was about the physical body rather than just simply hormones because hormones don't count as anything in my eyes.

It's about hormones in that hormone secretion affects secondary sex characteristics, and therefore change the shape of your physical body. You can end up with 'males' developing breasts, 'females' with facial hair, that kind of thing. That's about the only way hormone imbalances affect your physicality in a way related to biological sex, they'll otherwise have no effect on you (unless it's to do with menstrual cycles and libido I guess) and they will have absolutely no effect on your sexuality.

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Kind of late in my response. Was going to last night but late when I got in from the workshop. I might be wrong but aren't physical 'abnormalities' (my apologies if that's not the correct terminology) that cause a person to be intersex caused by chromosomal 'inconsistencies'?

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On 6/19/2020 at 7:10 AM, Cee Fox said:

You'll hear absolutely horrible things where doctors assign genders at birth, then force intersex people to constantly keep coming in for treatment because they experience discomfort with their genitalia (because of the gender assignment surgery they experienced at birth) and need to have it 'fixed'. A lot of doctors barely understand what being intersex means and they'll often try to force a 'solution' on newborn infants which leads to gender dysphoria later on. It's kind of sickening to me.

It brings to mind something the infamous Nazi death camp 'physician' Josef Mengele would've come up with...

 

That is the first I have heard of David Reimer, thank you for the link. The result sounds very similar to what was discussed in the Aussie article. The subjects did not feel female when they grew up.

 

I have a question which I'll pose later.

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WrenIsNotMyRealName!!
7 hours ago, Janus DarkFox said:

A small reminder that sex hormones itself do not control sexuality.

 

6 hours ago, Cee Fox said:

they will have absolutely no effect on your sexuality.

Hormones have everything to do with sexuality because hormones are the key ingredient to your personality. You brain develops the way it does because of hormones. Emotions are controlled by hormones. Thoughts are controlled by hormones. Anyways, the libido is literally pure hormones, is it not? Everything ABOUT sex is dictated by specific hormones and asexuals do not have these specific hormones present(hence why they do not feel the need to procreate or even try to) therefore, by your intersex standards, asexuals are intersex. Right?

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Janus the Fox
30 minutes ago, WrenIsNotMyRealName!! said:

 

Hormones have everything to do with sexuality because hormones are the key ingredient to your personality. You brain develops the way it does because of hormones. Emotions are controlled by hormones. Thoughts are controlled by hormones. Anyways, the libido is literally pure hormones, is it not? Everything ABOUT sex is dictated by specific hormones and asexuals do not have these specific hormones present(hence why they do not feel the need to procreate or even try to) therefore, by your intersex standards, asexuals are intersex. Right?

This is problematic as this implies all Asexuals are sick with a hormone imbalance cured if such hormones are reintroduced.

 

The brain itself is a complex grey matter filled with neurones not explicitly controlled by just hormonal changes on its own.

 

Libido cannot be simply hormones, again the brain and a persons thoughts or sensory experiences, a wide area of study is placed on this matter for as long as man has known of its existence.

 

An intersex person usually develops differently in utero, there’s complex biological systems at play even before birth and some can develop differently from puberty onwards, regardless and independent of sexuality.  

 

Please be careful implying everything is pure hormones. 

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WrenIsNotMyRealName!!
2 minutes ago, Janus DarkFox said:

This is problematic as this implies all Asexuals are sick with a hormone imbalance cured if such hormones are reintroduced.

Oh, I didn't mean that at all. And it's already been proven that introducing hormones can't change sexuality. They did it with homosexuals back in the 20s or something and it majorly fucked them up.

 

4 minutes ago, Janus DarkFox said:

Libido cannot be simply hormones, again the brain and a persons thoughts or sensory experiences, a wide area of study is placed on this matter for as long as man has known of its existence.

But I thought it was. Back when I was googling how to get rid of your libido(puberty was SUCH a pain) I learned that the libido is literally the testes and nothing else. I had thought it was something like the pituitary gland but nope. Libido is connected directly to the presence of the testes(on men, that is). Which shows that libido is just hormones secreted by a sex organ. If it wasn't just hormones, then why does it go away when you remove the testes?

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Janus the Fox

Not completely as the testis is an organ, removal by means doesn’t exactly stop the thoughts and desires a man can still have.  There’s also a good reason that men that loses their testis by means of illness or injury are put on HRT for other reasons.  There’s a small laundry list of illnesses that people that had testosterone before in the body, the lack of it causes a host of issues elsewhere in the body.

 

Those that do transition like I’d wish to as an MtF, it isn’t just T-blockers, it’s also many other hormones that need rebalancing as well at different spaces and timings to make sure such a person does not become ill while transitioning, if a Doctor in this area grants it. Many are often denied on health grounds dependent of medical histories.

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1 hour ago, WrenIsNotMyRealName!! said:

Hormones have everything to do with sexuality because hormones are the key ingredient to your personality. You brain develops the way it does because of hormones. Emotions are controlled by hormones. Thoughts are controlled by hormones. Anyways, the libido is literally pure hormones, is it not? Everything ABOUT sex is dictated by specific hormones and asexuals do not have these specific hormones present(hence why they do not feel the need to procreate or even try to) therefore, by your intersex standards, asexuals are intersex. Right?

Well firstly 'hormones' is a broad topic. There are a bunch of different hormones in your body that do a bunch of things. Testosterone and oestrogen aren't necessarily even the only sex hormones, their main function is to develop us enough so that we're ready to procreate and bear children (if needs be) and otherwise they just help in producing sperm and regulating the menstrual cycle. The psychological function of those hormones is pretty secondary if not tertiary.

 

It's not like all trans people have hormone imbalances and that's why they're trans. There are cis straight people with an excess of the opposite sex hormone and they're still cisgendered and straight. There are ace people with libidos and ace people without. There are non-asexuals with lower levels of hormones and therefore lack libidos or are hyposexual. Not everything about sex is determined by two hormones, sex as a whole isn't even determined by just two hormones. Sexuality should be something split apart from physiology all together. 

 

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WrenIsNotMyRealName!!
2 hours ago, Cee Fox said:

Sexuality should be something split apart from physiology all together.

That's like saying geometry should be separated from applied mathematics.

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9 hours ago, WrenIsNotMyRealName!! said:

That's like saying geometry should be separated from applied mathematics.

I should clarify that by 'sexuality' I'm actually implying sexual orientation, which is something asexuality is. In the same way being cis or trans or intersex doesn't automatically put you in a specific sexual orientation and doesn't influence your gender expression, hormones aren't going to make you act more feminine or masculine or change your orientation since it's more complex than that. Geometry may be a part of mathematics, but there's more to maths than geometry and even geometry itself isn't just about shapes.

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WrenIsNotMyRealName!!
9 hours ago, Cee Fox said:

I should clarify that by 'sexuality' I'm actually implying sexual orientation, which is something asexuality is. In the same way being cis or trans or intersex doesn't automatically put you in a specific sexual orientation and doesn't influence your gender expression, hormones aren't going to make you act more feminine or masculine or change your orientation since it's more complex than that. Geometry may be a part of mathematics, but there's more to maths than geometry and even geometry itself isn't just about shapes.

I'm aware of what you meant. What I mean is that orientation is in the brain, correct? It's how your brain is programmed. Well, the way your brain goes about being programmed is biochemistry. What's biochemistry? Hormones, right?

 

I understand that saying orientation(along with everything else) is based on hormones implies we can change it using hormones but that's false. You can't unprogram stuff like orientation. It's down in there. Trust me. I've reprogrammed and deleted and just plain programmed huge things in my brain but I was never able to take away the orientation.

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Janus the Fox

The concept of the mind often rather transcends the physical processes of the brain.  The mind as a concept is often debated as some entity beyond the brain itself.

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WrenIsNotMyRealName!!
4 hours ago, Janus DarkFox said:

The concept of the mind often rather transcends the physical processes of the brain.  The mind as a concept is often debated as some entity beyond the brain itself.

Yes but you'd be surprised how few people that's actually true for. My mind is separate from my body only because I was born dissociated. My friend's brain is separate because he dissociated because of mountains of trauma. Everyone who I consider a friend(I only have 3) are in varying stages of this mind being separated from their body. Think about that. 18 years and I've only met one person almost completely separate and 2 separate enough. It's unbelievably rare from the mind to be seperate from body.

 

Random SideNote: Isn't funny how the more people claim they open minded, the more close minded they become? Like the people on here. They think by thinking everything is a spectrum(granted, it mostly is) that they're super openminded but they all refuse to even consider other alternatives. Like mine. Some things are spectrums but a lot aren't. And some are spectrums inside non-spectrums.

 

Thanks for coming to my TEDTalk.

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