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Seeking Feedback - a "sex plan" for saving my marriage to a sexual partner


PetalsOnTheShamrock

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I understand that you want to start a family.  I think you should have kids if you really really want to have kids.  However, you haven't started a family thus far.  Could that be telling?  In your heart of hearts, do you really want this man to be the father of your children??

 

Lucinda

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PetalsOnTheShamrock
32 minutes ago, Serran said:

What after care the slave needs is known (tbh it doesn't even sound like this guy does after care... I would be surprised if he did).

What is "after care"?
 

I'm trying to handle the tsunami of emotions I'm feeling before responding to the thread in general, but this.... This I need to know what else was missing. That maybe if I had it things would have been different.  Idk.  
 

A week ago I didn't think much of the bdsm stuff. I knew I didn't like the experiences that I had and there was a link to how much I want to have sex even less now after it was introduced.  
 

But I think I was in denial of how deeply it has unpacted me.  I thought it was "normal" and just another example of me being at fault for not liking sex and avoiding intimacy. Another example of being a bad wife... Where I failed at something he asked me to do, asked me to be open minded about and really try in an effort to help our relationship. I've been carrying so much guilt.
 

Now that I've had this awakening that is not my fault. It was/is not normal. I'm not bad/not something wrong with me for not liking it....  No more guilt. A new set of emotions have been unlocked. 

 

My emotional self just wants to get out. My logical self knows I'm being emotional and saying don't be rash, do counseling.

 

But I don't know anymore if I want that counseling aimed at ways to make this work, or to help me process, heal and separate in a healthy way.

 

But anyway....  @Serran what's "after care"?

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5 minutes ago, PetalsOnTheShamrock said:

What is "after care"?

In brief, it’s whatever the sub (or dom) needs to come back to normal physically and emotionally after a scene.  While it would include treatment of any minor injuries, it’s often more about working through emotions, reassuring one another, etc.

 

In practice that can be most anything - whatever rituals or activities work for the people involved.  Hugs.  Being tucked into cozy bedding.  Being lavished with praise.  Cocoa.  A bath.  Being held while you cry, or until you are no longer dazed and “out of it.”  All sorts of things.

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6 minutes ago, PetalsOnTheShamrock said:

But I don't know anymore if I want that counseling aimed at ways to make this work, or to help me process, heal and separate in a healthy way.

This is something counseling will help you figure out.  As you work through your own feelings, and what underlies them, “what next?” gets clearer.

 

7 minutes ago, PetalsOnTheShamrock said:

A new set of emotions have been unlocked. 

*This* is totally normal.  :)

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17 minutes ago, ryn2 said:

In brief, it’s whatever the sub (or dom) needs to come back to normal physically and emotionally after a scene.  While it would include treatment of any minor injuries, it’s often more about working through emotions, reassuring one another, etc.

 

In practice that can be most anything - whatever rituals or activities work for the people involved.  Hugs.  Being tucked into cozy bedding.  Being lavished with praise.  Cocoa.  A bath.  Being held while you cry, or until you are no longer dazed and “out of it.”  All sorts of things.

Yeah. It is taking care of one another emotionally after to make sure it stays all positive. For my wife and I it is talking, assuring all was OK, nothing went past boundaries, cuddling and lots of expressions of love. 

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At a basic level it’s kind of like what you might do after you drag a less-active partner or friend along on a hike, run, or bike ride.  “Was that okay?  Did you have fun?  Was the pace too fast for you?  Here, have some water.  Do you need to sit for a while and catch your breath?  Do you want to give it another try next week, or would you rather do something else?  You did so well!  I’m proud of you!” and so on.

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PetalsOnTheShamrock
3 hours ago, ryn2 said:

it’s often more about working through emotions, reassuring one another, etc.

 

 

2 hours ago, Serran said:

For my wife and I it is talking, assuring all was OK, nothing went past boundaries, cuddling and lots of expressions of love. 

 

 

2 hours ago, ryn2 said:

At a basic level it’s kind of like what you might do after you drag a less-active partner or friend along on a hike, run, or bike ride.  “Was that okay?  Did you have fun?  Was the pace too fast for you?  Here, have some water.  Do you need to sit for a while and catch your breath?  Do you want to give it another try next week, or would you rather do something else?  You did so well!  I’m proud of you!” and so on.

 

Okay, so he did try it, sometimes.  The first scene we did he definitely did a version of this.  From my perspective it was awful, because even though the collar was off, I was still naked on the bed and just wanted to get the F out of the situation, but he did ask if I was pushed past my limits and all that stuff.  I remember distinctly reassuring him that everything was fine. I was just trying to get out of the conversation as quickly as possible.

 

But it wasn't *real*.  How could it be?  The entire premise of doing the BDSM, again, was because he wanted me to try new stuff, be open minded, and that he was unsatisfied with our sex life and my lack of being into things.  Doing stuff one time and then me saying "no, I know you were really into it and I played along for the whole thing, but I don't want to do this anymore" would have just been "giving up" on him genuinely trying to solve "the sex problem".  So, no, of course I didn't tell him how I really felt.  Especially because to me it still felt like we were "in" whatever it was we were "in" - it's not like I've had time to shower, dress, decompress, have alone time, and process what had just happened to me to say if it was okay or not.  And the times after that.... again, for me things were not improving, but without having suggestions on how to "improve our sex life" which was the #1 goal in order to help our marriage, I had nothing to offer.  And without being to come to the table with solutions, what good would it have been to continue to come to the table with problems?  At the time I didn't want to see the marriage end, I was feeling guilty over not being more sexually inclined and just felt I needed to somehow force myself to learn to get used to it.

 

So screw this whole "I could have and should have spoken up and communicated thing better" thing - NO.  In this situation, any of the so-called "after care" that he attempted was not what y'all have described because I did not have "psychological safety" to say what I actually wanted to say.  

 

And then after the first couple times, he stopped doing it all together and it just became, "was that alright"? and then I don't recall if there was even that anymore.  I just got out of the collar and tried to go get cleaned up as quickly as possible, and clean up everything that was used for the scene and either go to bed or go and watch TV or something.

 

I don't know - I feel like something snapped last night.  I can't look back on any of "my bad communication" and "going along with it" behavior wrt the BDSM stuff anymore and blame myself.  Fuck that.  It was a manipulative situation from the get go.  I was essentially given an ultimatum - "this or you propose something sexual instead."

 

I still will take responsibility for not standing up for myself outside of BDSM, that's on me. But I'm starting to be a bit kinder to myself in terms of looking at the whole situation and the *why* behind why I was doing what I was doing.  It was/is logical and based on real experiences, not just fears. Intent behind actions is critical.

 

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Well... see, your after care there should have been "are you OK? What do you need?" And if you were seeming uncomfortable "do you need some time alone?" 

 

Like ... my wife is grossed out by body fluids. So very first thing we do is "do you want me to let you go?" and she nods and we unrestrain  whatever. Then I get her the hand sanitizer and something to clean up with. Then we can cuddle up and after shes all relaxed then we go with "was that OK ? Too much? Not enough?" But we also have already discussed the scene before... like "this time when you spank me, I would like you to try for marks" or something. So I know it was within boundaries, just want to make sure she feels OK afterwards and not regretting it. Sometimes things suck for one or the other or both and we go "Ok so we tried it, let's take that one out as a no go now since it wasn't great"  ....

 

Like primary in after care is meeting their needs and becoming relaxed after. Not just "how can I sexually please you?"...

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PetalsOnTheShamrock
4 hours ago, Lucinda said:

I understand that you want to start a family.  I think you should have kids if you really really want to have kids.  However, you haven't started a family thus far.  Could that be telling?  In your heart of hearts, do you really want this man to be the father of your children??

@Lucinda It's not telling.  It's a conscious choice.   When I was nearing 30 I started thinking about how important it was to me to start having kids soon.  In my ideal world, I'd have 3 or 4, so starting around 30 is pretty much the timeline I was thinking.  Bustling, chaotic household full of love, that's what I always fantasized when I was a child (I'm the youngest of two, and my sister and I do not get along).

 

But as I was nearing 30, problems between my partner were getting worse, not better - the communication, my feelings of his control/ unfounded jealousy, the lack of pretty much any overlapping hobbies/interest, the lack of feeling supported in my job, the lack of division of household labor, and I was really losing all emotional intimacy I had left.... I hated how he'd talk about my friends that were "our friends", and how things turned into a debate or he needed to be right when I just wanted to have fun thought exercises.

 

And frankly, I was really concerned that when we have a baby, that he won't "be there" for me.  Won't be equal in terms of doing all the "work" that is necessary, the crappy stuff like changing diapers and night feedings, as well as being a true partner in raising the kid properly - reading, engagement, play time.  I was afraid that it would all fall to me and he'd be more like an "optional" participant.  Get all of the good, and it would be a "favor" to help out.   And then - what about for the kid itself?  I want my kids' father to be really present in their lives. Super active.  None of this classical 50s stereotype stuff.

 

So I've been pushing it off.  A few years ago he got a job when we moved to a house with a yard.  I thought, great, this will be kinda like a test.  

  • Context - I'm a cat person and we have 2 cats that are incredibly important to me.  The arrangement is that he gets as much of the "good" as he wants, and none of the "bad" - so he doesn't do kitty litter, feed them, take them to the vet, etc.  He just gets to enjoy their company.  But when we moved houses, it was a situation where we moved to a new state while I was still working in the previous state, so 3 days a week he needed to feed them, and it very much was a "doing me a favor" kind of thing.

I've never wanted a dog and have been very vocal about that, I'm quite allergic and I think they're a ton of work to take proper care of a dog.  I've also said he can get a dog whenever he wants to sign up for doing all the work, just like the expectation is I do all the "work" with the cats.  So, taking the dog for walks, taking the dog to training, bathing her, vet, etc.   So anyway, we moved to house w/ yard, he got dog.  At first I thought cool, this is going better than I expected - he took her to training every week (I went too - I know it's important for the human to be trained just as much if not more than the dog) and he was the one that did most of the training practicing between sessions.  But he's never taken her for a walk.  We have a huge backyard so just would let her run around and throw the ball with her for exercise... okay, that might be okay, but she's never learned to walk on a leash properly.  And he's never socialized her.  So she's impossible to take places because she pulls on the leash and gets overly excited.... and after the first year, he's essentially stopped playing with her and teaching her new training commands or tricks.  Now her days are spent more like a cat - get up, eat - sleep - eat again, go to bed for the night.  I feel terrible for her and will play with her myself sometimes, but it really gets to me.  The dog is his responsibility and her happiness is important.  I've considered doing more of the support for the dog myself because that would be the right thing to do for the wellbeing of the dog, but I feel like it's a battle of will to not give in (he told me repeatedly every time I'd insist that the dog work would be his responsibly - "maybe", it should be something we do together, it'll be fun... and I always held my ground on it so I don't want to give in).  Where I've "given in" is I'll feed her and let her out for bathroom if it's more convenient for me than him at that time.  Feels totally reasonable to me, just like he'll feed my cats if I'm not able to.  Sometimes I will choose to play with her because I enjoy playing with her, but that's not giving in, that's like my cats sitting on my partner's lap.

 

So verdict?  To me that's a fail.  He wanted a dog for years, finally got one, and then what?  If he can't be bothered to do the basics for the dog, what about a kid?  And feel free to tell me that's a totally unfair comparison - I'm not a dog person or a parent!  So hearing a different perspective on this would be good because right now that is my perspective!

 

I'm feeling differently since the "WTF" moment last night, but up until now for some reason I've been holding on and thinking "maybe things will change", and I've been ignoring the voice in my head saying - if you aren't ready to have kids with him because you have doubts.... will you ever be ready?  Are you okay with not having kids at all?  Not ignoring it enough to just yeeeehaw, let's make babies, but ignoring it enough to confront the issues in our relationship.

Edit:  actually, honestly, don't think that's true.  I've never thought he'd magically change.  But I have thought that maybe I don't need to have kids.  I have concerns over becoming a mom because of my family - my childhood was less than ideal.  My sister has a mental illness, my father abused me.  I feel tremendous guilt for not being able to help my sister overcome her issues.  I feel very responsible and like a coward for letting the abuse go on from my father as long as it did (fyi, he didn't abuse my sister, just me).  And so I have doubts if I my genes are okay, and then I also look at how I've failed with my family...... and then how I've failed with my marriage.... and I wonder "how can I possibly be a good mother"?   So the "putting it off" honestly was more of a "maybe I shouldn't have children" and trying to come to terms with that.  And that's been an exhausting *battle*.

Figured I've been bearing my soul in this thread in ever other way, so I should be honest about this one too.  So there it is.  Maybe it was a "maybe I shouldn't be a mom anyway" kind of thing.  But the battle is over now.  I know I want kids.... now I'm in my mid 30s, 4 may be unrealistic, but nonetheless, I want a family.

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38 minutes ago, PetalsOnTheShamrock said:

In this situation, any of the so-called "after care" that he attempted was not what y'all have described because I did not have "psychological safety" to say what I actually wanted to say.

Yeah, that - trust, psychological safety - is really core to BDSM, whether the play partners are in a romantic relationship, a friendship, a BDSM group, or whatever.  It’s important both ways; you don’t want a dom hurting (emotionally or physically) a sub against the sub’s will, but you also don’t want a sub using a dom as a substitute for self-harm.

 

If you can’t be 100% trusting and vulnerable around someone you shouldn’t play with them, whether the problem is them (untrustworthiness) or you (not ready to trust someone).  That’s part of why a lot of people play with strangers only in club or party settings; if something goes wrong there are people designated to step in.

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5 minutes ago, PetalsOnTheShamrock said:

To me that's a fail.  He wanted a dog for years, finally got one, and then what?  If he can't be bothered to do the basics for the dog, what about a kid?

It certainly doesn’t give you reason to believe he’d be different with kids.  It’s not like you were the one who wanted the dog as a “dry run” for children, from everything you are describing... so it seems reasonable to be concerned that he can’t really muster the concern to do the right thing for the pet he so wanted.

 

Is it possible that he would be different with kids?  Sure.  But the evidence is not piling up in his favor.

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PetalsOnTheShamrock
15 hours ago, banana monkey said:
19 hours ago, PetalsOnTheShamrock said:

 

I don't feel respected by his actions associated with my job/lack of support (even though he insists he's really supportive?  I don't understand...)  And then I don't feel particularly respected in general.  I feel "less" when I'm with him than when I'm at work or with friends.

Sex issues aside- this is a bit telling for me. I mean sex may be an issue but this doesnt seem like a good basis for any relationship whether is is sexual or sexless. It sounds like you dont like his company and if you were not in a relationship you would probably end the friendship. 

 

This is the basic thing which indicates the relationship may not be worth saving. Many mixed orientation partners decide to communicate and try and compromise on sex because they have shared interests love each other and all other aspects of the relationship are worth saving. This quote makes me think that may not be the case here, and if you feel your partner is not able to listen to your points of view and respectfully disagree then you probably wont be able to commmunicate about your issues you want to improve (both sex which will probably be the hardest and all the others)

I do enjoy his company, and I don't enjoy his company.  It's complicated.  I do love him, I know that.  I just don't know anymore what kind of love that is, or if it's enough.

 

I enjoy his company the most when we're out with mutual friends.  That's when I'm reminded about what I like about him.  I don't even have to be interacting with him directly to warm towards him in those situations, just observing him warms me.  

 

But otherwise, I generally feel "less than" when I'm with him.  And I don't like that person.  It's not who I identify myself as.  That really is the almost humorous thing in all this.  When I read this thread from the start and look at all of my behavior from an outsider's perspective, I think "geez, this Petals person seems like someone with really low self-esteem that doesn't have a voice" - and that's just not the case outside my relationship.  I really dislike the person I've become when I am when I am with my partner - and I first recognized that about 10 years ago? - because when I'm at work, with friends, meeting new people, I'm actually very confident and assertive. I've been quite successful as a women in the tech/software industry, get asked to speak on panels as a "leader", am a frequent mentor, etc.  I like *that* person - my "outside the home" self.  She's someone I respect greatly and has her shit together, and doesn't apologize for things that aren't her fault, or feel bad that she bruised somebody else' ego.

 

But somehow, someway, when I return home, when I'm with him, I become this other person.  Closer to my highschool self that doesn't stick up for my well-being.  That will allow myself to lose just so he can win.  And not out of love, but out of... something else. Something I can't understand or name.

 

Back to the "would I end the friendship"?  I don't know.  My gut would be no, why would I?  If I weren't in a marriage and didn't have the history I have, I do enjoy his company when I'm out with other people.  But to be honest, I don't know if we'd have a natural reason to be friends. We don't have overlapping hobbies.... like, at all.  Our overlapping stuff ended at college and our first job, so it was really "workplace" stuff.  (We were the same major, and then we worked at the same company for a while).  And "just talking" - I'm not sure if that would work.  He doesn't have any female friends so I'm skeptical he'd be inclined, and for me I'm not interested in debate club.   Long story short - friends maybe, but more like friendly acquaintances that I see out and about with other friends or at an event? 

 

Wow, that sounds bad.

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I love dogs..  but yeah they are a huge amount of work. As they age, they just become more work. If you aren't willing to put the work in, then don't get one. They need groomed and played with and loved and fed and vet care and socializing at least a little (or they are nervous wrecks at the vet and can become dangerous for pets/people they don't know). 

 

I take care of kids and pets. Usually if one is neglected like that then yeah... I wouldn't trust them to care for the other. I see so many children not cared for in my job (special needs care) because they are "too much work". I wouldn't trust him to be a dad. Especially when he acts so much like a kid himself. 

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PetalsOnTheShamrock
13 hours ago, Sinking_In said:

I've only just read this thread tonight, from beginning to end, I'm not going to comment much, except to say I'm glad @PetalsOnTheShamrock is feeling anger right now, because 1) it's a sign of healing can begin. and 2) from what I've read you have a lot of healing to do, and 3) a lot to be angry about. I hope you continue on your healing path, and I hope your husband steps up his game and is there for YOU during this time. Give him the chance to, but he has to listen to you, REALLY LISTEN. Even if he can't or won't, then you just keep at it, for yourself, because in the end, your healing is for you, and it's up to you. Be strong. Persevere, and you will find the right path for yourself, whether or not he is by your side is up to both of you. You have a say in everything you do from here on out. You've always had a say, but it sounds like now you're finding your voice. Use it.

20 hours ago, Serran said:

If a friend told me their partner treated me the way you're describing, I would honestly ask what they needed to get out of that situation. No one would find how he treats you acceptable. And... honestly some of it sounds boredline trauma inducing. No wonder you checked out of it. 

 

5 hours ago, ryn2 said:

 

5 hours ago, PetalsOnTheShamrock said:

A new set of emotions have been unlocked. 

*This* is totally normal.  :)

 

I know I'm not getting all the snippets that y'all have said that have been really meaningful, but I have to sign off for a while so trying to do a quick post of thank you beforehand.

 

Thank you.  Thank you.  Thank you for listening, and sharing your perspectives.  Helping me sort things out as I share such personal and impactful experiences.  And thank you for letting me be angry and not making me feel like I'm unreasonable or blowing things out of proportion.  

 

❤️ 

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anisotrophic

@PetalsOnTheShamrock I can only confirm your doubt on change & having kids on this context: my partner kept saying he would get better — to give him time, he thought of himself as being in an egalitarian relationship but he was just bad at chores & needed time. (I am also in tech, and invited to speak & be on panels, btw.) Kids happened and it’s not like I knew more than him, but I ended up doing so much more. An unending cycle of broken promises, asking for patience, etc. — and me getting routinely suicidal as I felt trapped in the situation. (This is what needs to change. I’m optimistic.)

 

Sex issues aside, trying to be successful professionally — then, actually being successful — while knowing you’re living a silent sexist dream in domestic labor is a special sort of hell. And I’m surrounded by everyone not in it: the young, the child free, the men with kids and wives (and who I tend to expect are not unlike my own partner in their contribution to household labor).

 

I hid that I had kids. I didn’t tell people. Because when they learned — eg I was pregnant — the subtle stuff comes out. “Congrats on becoming a parent!” (actually it’s not my first, why did everyone assume that?) “Ah I’ll miss you at next year’s conference” (wtf does having a kid mean I quit for a year?) Impressed that I’m a parent “too”. Women especially.[1] It’s entirely possible I lost opportunities when people knew.


You don’t need kids to have a full life. I’m not sure I should have, but I did, and I’ll try my best to follow through. It’s an enormous life path commitment to make. I wish women didn’t face this shitty choice. This comic sums it up (but sharing it multiple times with my partner never helped): https://english.emmaclit.com/2017/05/20/you-shouldve-asked/

 

[1] Edit to add: European women in particular. I'm American. I'm assuming men are less likely to say it out loud because they're more wary of being sexist... or blithely unaware of the whole mess (invisible privileges). I can also say, the few women I do meet professionally that are parents, seem to have been sucked into the same silent hell of sacrifice and suffering. It's silent because you avoid speaking ill of your partner, especially in public. One told me, in a quiet moment (I paraphrase), "that comic you shared was really true :(" (i.e. the one linked above)

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12 hours ago, anisotrophic said:

@anisotrophic - amazing comic!!  It perfectly encapsulated how exasperated I feel when I'm asked "just tell me what I can do to help" and I think to myself.... it's more work to figure out what to tell you to do than to do it myself!! I don't have a full mental catalogue already in my head in every moment planned out, it's intuitive and make it happen as I go.  Or the rare times when my partner unloads the dishwasher often there are things he doesn't know where they go, so he just leaves them on the counter..... it's like what?? (1) Why can't you take 3min and open cabinets until you figure out where the thing should do? (2) we moved in 3 years ago, how do you not know where things are?  (3) this is why I included you in deciding what went where when I was unpacking, and then afterwards I gave you a "tour" of the kitchen!

 

I've observed, and participated in, probably dozens of conversations with other women on this topic over the years... some are "jokes", some are serious.  Nothing sums it up so well and works it end-to-end.  After reading it I asked one of my male friend's for his perspective.  He actually had already read it!  I asked him how "obvious" it was to him when he first read it - he said about 80% (specifically noting he hadn't been thinking about the parental leave thing), but he went on to say he feels that's not typical.  That he had thought/observed a lot of this stuff before but likely significantly more than other men in his opinion.  He attributed to it to growing with empowered women, the fact his father was pretty involved with household life so when we went to friend's houses it was notable that other fathers weren't, and general empathy (I plus 1 that, he's high on EI/empathy scale).  When I have conversations like that, it makes me even more aware of the importance of "is this the father, this the family I want to build?" - someone's childhood experiences makes such a huge impact on who they become as a person, and how they interact and empathize with others. 

 

It's really unfortunate that your partner doesn't "get" it.  I imagine how frustrating, and lonely that must feel. The idea of being trapped.  As much as I want kids, I've just "known" that it would make things so much worse even though I never talked to anyone.  It sounds like we're similar with stage in our life - career-wise as well as the "decade and a half married".... and the whole "surrounded by everybody not in it"..... and my heart really goes out to you.  I'm so sorry @anisotrophic  :(  I'm fortunate to not be suicidal now, but when I was in HS w/ the abuse I was and had a failed attempt. Feeling trapped and hopeless is so dangerous, so I'm REALLY HAPPY to hear you're optimistic, and this is what you're working on with your partner to change! 🙌❤️

 

12 hours ago, anisotrophic said:

the few women I do meet professionally that are parents, seem to have been sucked into the same silent hell of sacrifice and suffering.

 

12 hours ago, anisotrophic said:

It’s entirely possible I lost opportunities when people knew.

 

12 hours ago, anisotrophic said:

You don’t need kids to have a full life. I’m not sure I should have, but I did, and I’ll try my best to follow through. It’s an enormous life path commitment to make. I wish women didn’t face this shitty choice.

I've seen the same thing.  I think I got pretty lucky on my timing around the kid thing because at first I was super career-focused and so in my mid twenties I was actively anti-kids because I was thinking about it as an "about 30" thing.  And I was lucky that I happened to be very successful... though that first job it was so male-dominated that I was the only woman in my entire department, and typically I didn't even interact with other women daily, except for admins.  I left that job at 28 and moved to a job where I was fortunate to have lots of choice of where to go, so picked one that the VP of my department was a woman.  She was the CEO's "right hand man".  I know lots of people would judge me for using that as a big deciding factor, but ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ .  In that job I had her, eTeam leader of a technical department, and the most senior director under her was also a woman.  I reported to a man, but I ended up becoming very close the the senior director as friends and then close with the VP as a mentor.  Both of them had difficult with kids/work so I learned a lot.  The sr director especially, whom had gone through a really horrible divorce and was in a constant battle with her ex over her daughter.  So I was both actively warned, and observed, that I shouldn't consider adding kids into the equation until I was 100% happy & unenthusiastic about my relationship with my partner.  

 

So in the meantime, I've been focusing on my career.  Thinking "I still have time"..... and hoping that perhaps if I gain enough success before having my first kid, it may help a bit on the work friction front since I'll be less in "prove myself to everybody mode". 

 

In a pipedream kind of way, I've also been hoping that if I gain enough success now, then perhaps when I do have kids, my partner will be able to stay home and be the primary care giver.  It's not crazy - I'm doing well career-wise so it may be possible financially.  And my husband doesn't enjoy work, he just works to earn a paycheck, so if the economics were there, he'd do it.  But..... um...... well...... I've already talked about my doubts on that front :(  that's the reason I'm calling it a pipedream.

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PetalsOnTheShamrock

Okay, here we go.  Yesterday was really hard.  Friday night --> Saturday morning, my "WTF" moment re: RL punishment just put me into emotional overdrive and I spent a lot of yesterday trying to calm down.  It's time to touch this again though...

 

Before I begin... I'm glad that I've been able to calm down, but... my conclusion isn't different.  I just don't see why I should stay in the relationship.  I'm struggling to see what's worth fighting for.  Hoping counseling will give me a framework for how to lay out the options and work through them.

 

Alright, now I'm going to go through these points and let's see how much the emotions stir ;)
 

On 5/30/2020 at 7:45 AM, ryn2 said:
On 5/30/2020 at 1:28 AM, PetalsOnTheShamrock said:

the BDSM that I was doing was a bastardization

From everything you’ve described, what you were doing wasn’t BDSM at all.  If your partner was more experienced I would classify it as abuse... in your specific situation it’s hard to know if it was more a case of “making it up as you go” that went  wrong, potentially due to ignorance (of his own ignorance) on his part.

I still don't believe the general intention was malicious.  Based on what I've learned, I absolutely think he was doing "making it up as you go".  We never discussed a scene ahead of time.  Sometimes it was clear he had an idea of what he wanted to do ahead of time, but a lot of the time it was obvious that he was doing things on the fly.  So it really was like "oh baby, let's spice up our sex life with bondage, whips, etc."

 

The part I don't understand, and I don't know when it turns into "abuse" is.  What do y'all think?
1. does the verbal humiliation count as psychological abuse?  I doubt it.  I hated it, but that doesn't seem abusive?

2. does the "tell me what you're being punished for" over and over count as psychological abuse?  again, I doubt it.  I hated it so so so much, but it doesn't seem like abuse?

3. does the "control" aspect of " you need to do these things because that's the agreement, I'm the master and you're the slave", count as psychological abuse?  I doubt it.  Even if it was coerced as opposed to how BDSM is supposed to work where the slave does those things because they *want* to enter into that type of relationship, it's not about anything physical or anything acute 

4. does the continue to spank, paddle, strike, (or whatever) until I'm tender Or marks are left abuse?  This feels borderline.  Maybe this is abuse.  But I did consent "officially" to this..... so I'm conflicted.

5. does the doing soft limit stuff count as abuse?  Again, with the circumstance, it feels kind of borderline.  Maybe it's abuse, I'm really fuzzy on it.  I consented "officially" but if I knew it was going to happen ahead of time I would have said no.

 

On 5/30/2020 at 7:45 AM, ryn2 said:
On 5/30/2020 at 1:28 AM, PetalsOnTheShamrock said:

Was is laziness?  He didn't want to be bothered to learn the right way to do things? 

It could be where/how he learned about it.  If he didn’t know enough (not just about BDSM; about research in general) to distinguish quality information sources from garbage...

No. I won't give him this.  He is very smart and educated, with a technical degree and an MBA. And very thorough.  He knows how to do proper research for academia, and then in his RL he's a "researcher" by nature - he researches the heck out of purchasing a new hard drive, rechargeable mouse, or headphones.   If this is a research failure, then either he didn't care enough to pay for quality sources, was too uncomfortable to do research the crossed into RL venues, or just disregarded the need to "proper BDSM research" because that wasn't actually his goal.

 

Maybe his goal was NOT "real" BDSM.  Maybe his goal was just "spice up the bedroom" and so he was just looking for inspiration and then cobbled together stuff on his own and didn't think about my perspective on it.  Didn't think about how "never in the mood" actually equal = not interested in having sex and how throwing me into this with the ultimatum that he did was putting me in a place with no psychological safety, and the choice to "play along" or else.

 

That's what I would put my money on.   And in general, I think this is likely consistent through our relationship - that he doesn't think about things from my perspective. Or try to empathize with me.
 

On 5/30/2020 at 7:45 AM, ryn2 said:
On 5/30/2020 at 1:28 AM, PetalsOnTheShamrock said:

Did he just not care about what I wanted?

You do describe quite a lot of things that point this way, not just about BDSM.  Best case, he sounds oblivious and insensitive.

 

On 5/30/2020 at 1:28 AM, PetalsOnTheShamrock said:

putting me through this shit would make me MORE into sex??

That’s totally not the purpose of BDSM, sexuality aside.  Perhaps he confuses it with fetishes, as there is some overlap (some people with fetishes have fetishes that fall within the scope of BDSM, and many find themselves more accepted within the kink community)?  People tend to use the term “fetish” a bit loosely but it technically means something (an object, a body part, etc. - something that is not the typical sex characteristics) that one needs in order to feel sexual desire.

 

BDSM play releases some of the same chemicals involved in sex, so it can generate or enhance arousal, but it doesn’t cause people who don’t want sex to magically want it somehow.

Thinking on it now, what I just said about empathy carries over here.  I think he doesn't think about ME and what *I* want, or how *I* think and feel.  I think he may be trying to and failing - perhaps asking for input about "women" or doing online research, or like @Serranhas said - looked at what's popular in female erotica and just made assumptions that it would apply to me.

 

This line of "BDSM play releases some of the same chemicals involved in sex, so it can generate or enhance arousal, but it doesn’t cause people who don’t want sex to magically want it somehow." is so accurate.  But he's probably coming from the assumption that I MUST like sex, and maybe I just don't know it.  Because who on earth wouldn't like sex?  As a sexual whose primary love language is physical touch, the concept is so foreign to him, it might as well not exist.  It doesn't matter that he has my test results and they clearly show that I don't even like physical touch and don't see it as a way to express or feel love.  IMO He's blind to that because it doesn't align with his way of thinking and he hasn't stopped to try and empathize with ME - Petals. 

 

On 5/30/2020 at 7:45 AM, ryn2 said:

 

On 5/30/2020 at 1:28 AM, PetalsOnTheShamrock said:

WTF was I punished for, ever?? 

To me, personally - and I know some think I’m way too lenient on this - I would want to know intent.  In terms of whether or not the relationship can be salvaged, it would matter to me whether he was really just that clueless, or he seized upon an opportunity to be cruel on purpose.  Some of that might require counseling, both individual and joint, to sort out.

 

Clueless could be fixable, if he’s willing to acknowledge and address it *and* you still want to try.  Intentional is a “get out” scenario, especially for someone whose family history makes them easier to abuse.

On 5/30/2020 at 11:11 AM, Serran said:

I mean. I don't know for sure. He literally is copying the guy from 50 shades. So maybe he was just ignorant? But... i find it hard to believe you can be that clueless about someone you have been with so long. So, my gut is saying he wanted it as a means of control and "socially acceptable abuse". My ex was abused as a kid and he was an abuser and his brother masked his abuse as BDSM for his partner but was as well... he would "punish" his gf if she folded clothes wrong, or various other RL actually upset things as an excuse to hit her without being arrested. It made me quite sick. Punishment is about fun and training... but the sub enjoys it and knows the rules. Otherwise, it is just abusive. And it can only be used in every day stuff if you negotiate that and enter into BDSM as a full time lifestyle slave/master, not just for the bedroom. 

For the punishment - again, I think he was just doing the "make it up as you go" and he probably read online, or saw in porn the whole "tell me what you did wrong" thing and he decided that was the easy way to do punishment.  It was probably that simple - "oh, punishment looks fun! I guess women are into this! and excuse to spank her!  hmmmm, but what to punish her for.... I don't know.... oh! I'll just make her tell me, perfect!"  And when he was trying to think of things, he probably had never done the research to know you don't punish for RL stuff, so when he was thinking of what to punish me for,it was just easiest to pick things from the real world.... and sometime they were "silly" to him (even if they weren't "silly" to me), and sometimes they actually bothered him.  He probably wasn't doing anything intentionally sinister.  And so the fact that it literally is the thing that finally "broke me" would shock him.  He would likely think I'm blowing it out of portion, thinking I'm being ridiculous, that it was all for fun..... but it wasn't.  It was fun for him.  It wasn't fun for me.

 

And the pain was NOT fun.  A bit was okay sometimes, sometimes it could even be good.  If I'm going to have sex, then fine, give me a bit of pain, let the brain do its thing and enhance stuff, and then let's have sex.  But a stroke more?  No. No no no no no.  That's just hitting me. And ANY push back on when I say to go softer is just inexcusable.  WhyTF?  But I think I know the answer to that too... I think he probably had in this mind the whole "training" thing.  Which I know is a popular concept in erotica.... "training the slave".... so either it was a turn on for him (THIS is my theory) or he thought that doing "training" for me to increase my pain threshold so that theoretically more chemical release from the brain would be supplied, would be him being a good dom.  Him "unlocking" more pleasure for me.  That second one is also a possibility.  Misguided as it is..... because if that is what he was doing, then I should have been an eager participant instead of one that was gritting my teeth thinking "why does he want to hit me so hard?"

 

On 5/30/2020 at 7:45 AM, ryn2 said:

How does he treat other people?  Does he treat/talk about women differently than men?  How does he act towards retail workers, wait staff, and other service workers?  How does he treat animals, especially smaller or helpless ones?

He seems to treat other people well, respectfully.  He doesn't overtly talk about women differently than men other than the "girls" thing I mentioned - so maybe there's something there and I'm not around him enough to know what he's like.  But I'd be surprised if it was really anything, people at his work, including women, really seem to love him.  Service works - generally friendly. Not as considerate as some people that go out of their way to be really friendly to wait staff, but he's respectful and appreciative.  He's never rude to them.

 

He treats animals well except for what I've mentioned about my feelings he doesn't take care of the dog properly, but the dog is in no way abused.  the dog LOVES him, and he's super great with her interaction wise.  He's also good with my cats, even when they jump up on his shoulders and accidentally scratch him, or the boy cats destroys/eats through his electronics cords - he may shout briefly in anger/pain/shock in these moments, but he never throws them or lays a hand on them or anything.

 

23 hours ago, Serran said:

Well... see, your after care there should have been "are you OK? What do you need?" And if you were seeming uncomfortable "do you need some time alone?" 

 

Like ... my wife is grossed out by body fluids. So very first thing we do is "do you want me to let you go?" and she nods and we unrestrain  whatever. Then I get her the hand sanitizer and something to clean up with. Then we can cuddle up and after shes all relaxed then we go with "was that OK ? Too much? Not enough?" But we also have already discussed the scene before... like "this time when you spank me, I would like you to try for marks" or something. So I know it was within boundaries, just want to make sure she feels OK afterwards and not regretting it. Sometimes things suck for one or the other or both and we go "Ok so we tried it, let's take that one out as a no go now since it wasn't great"  ....

 

Like primary in after care is meeting their needs and becoming relaxed after. Not just "how can I sexually please you?"...

On 5/30/2020 at 11:11 AM, Serran said:

I mean. I don't know for sure. He literally is copying the guy from 50 shades. So maybe he was just ignorant? But... i find it hard to believe you can be that clueless about someone you have been with so long.

Following up on aftercare - I think that for him, everything was just about the sex.  So "was it good for you and how/should I sexually please you different next time" was what he was fixated on. And again, he wasn't thinking about what I was going through, and overall circumstance he had put me into, etc.  All that context made it a BFD for me, but for him - I expect he was thinking it very much as "this transaction today, what we did just now".  And if you remove all the context, and you accept that he doesn't naturally try to think of things from my perspective... and then isn't naturally an empathetic person.... I can get there.  I can get there that he's simply clueless and ignorant.   He probably went to sleep those nights being like "homerun! she loved it, things are going great!" whereas I went to bed miserable thinking how long do I need to keep pretending?  Is this what I need to do to be a good wife?  Why can't I just be a better wife?  Why am I a failure?

 

That doesn't excuse him.  The more I've thought of it the more I've realized that it was a traumatic experience for me that has had MAJOR consequences - in our sex life and in our relationship.

________
And now that I've gone through everything let's compare....  I'm still generally calm.  Had a couple moments, but overall, calm.  And I'm in the same place.  While I'm not crazy angry at him, and crying my eyes out, and while I don't believe he intentionally decided to be a horrible bastardization of BDSM, I don't think he was trying to be malicious. 

 

I think he was prioritizing sex, and thought that if he could make it physically pleasurable for me, that's the most important thing, and then he use the opportunity under the premise of "we're doing BDSM" to do stuff that turned him on - like the control stuff, and verbal humiliating, the "training" of the slave, etc.  Unfortunately he wasn't thinking about me in all of to as the person I am, he thought of me as the person he wanted me to be.

 

And that, fundamentally is the problem.  He doesn't want to be with the person I actually am.  The person I am at work, and with my friends.  The person that wants nothing to do with sex, kissing, and cuddling.  He wants the person he fell in love with in HS - the girl that was so broken from the abuse that she would do anything to make him happy so he wouldn't leave her.  "Sex? Video games? Constant back massages? Keep your dorm room clean and do your laundry?  Absolutely!  Whatever you want sweetie, I love you!"

 

 

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The thing that distinguishes abusive behavior - emotional as well as physical - from other behavior is:  it’s an attempt to control someone.  It’s not the “what” that matters, it’s the why.

 

Honestly, the thing that raises the biggest red flag to me is this:

 

43 minutes ago, PetalsOnTheShamrock said:

He wants the person he fell in love with in HS - the girl that was so broken from the abuse that she would do anything to make him happy so he wouldn't leave her.

It’s concerning that - along with consistently being tone-deaf to your wants and needs - he seems to be seeking out things and actions that leave you feeling more like this version of yourself and less like the “current you” you personally like so much better.

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Abuse doesn't have to just be physical. The thing that separates BDSM from abuse is the respect, trust and care for another persons well being. The reason it is traumatic for you is because he only thought of it as a "I get what I want and forget what she wants" aspect. BDSM without proper consent is abusive. BDSM without proper follow through is abusive. It makes the person being the sub feel awful, controlled, humiliated and violated. 

 

You can also be abusive without even knowing you're doing it. Most of my abusers would have told you I wanted it, they took great care of me, etc. They truly believe it. Even as they held me down crying when I said no. It doesn't have to be from a place of malice to be abuse. My ex saw me as a "messed up kid that needs work before being with adults"... like he literally saw himself as training me to grow up. Including liking sex (which apparently forcing it without my consent would make me like it... yea, no). In his mind everything he did was for me. But, he put me through years of trauma and wanted to control me to be this meek girl that took care of the house, he ran off my male friends, he accused me of cheating, he tried to cut off my family, he didn't want me to work and he forced me to be sexual. None of it was for me. He used gaslighting to make me feel like I was the bad one, when really, he was very gross to me. 

 

And if he wants you in the mindset of an abuse victim as you say... and that's the girl he wants... that says quite a lot. My wife pushes me to be out of that mindset. My wife refuses to allow me to please just out of fear or anxiety and will just not do whatever she knows I'm doing because I've been triggered into that again. She actually fights to untrain me. She even realizes when her getting angry at me causes me to hide and often tries to snap me out of it even though she's still annoyed with me. Respectful partners do not want you to be in that abused mindset. They want you out of that toxic attitude. Because they know you will hurt yourself while in it. They wouldn't try to put you back into it. 

 

Like... I would say if he can't accept he has hurt you and been quite toxic then there isnt even hope. I would only try to stay if he was willing to do counseling to work through that behavior and be more respectful and mindful of you. 

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This comic sums it up (but sharing it multiple times with my partner never helped): https://english.emmaclit.com/2017/05/20/you-shouldve-asked/

Not surprised it doesn't "help", because every time it gets linked here it still comes off to me as angry feminism prop that is incidentally very insensitive toward males (just males in particular, even though this can easily happen to either sex) who have been pushed into a more "submissive" domestic role -- quite possibly because every time they tried to be more assertive and take more initiative in the past, they ended up getting brushed aside because the other person could do it "better", or told off, scolded, or even punished for doing things wrong.

 

(Not that I'm speaking from personal experience there or anything, which would only help me feel like I'm being targeted by this blog post specifically...)

 

A comic like this would probably do a better job garnering the sympathy it's clearly trying to garner if it made at least some attempt to be more understanding of the other side of the fence.  Since it doesn't, though, it's only going to put people like me on the defensive every time it's brought up -- which I'm sure isn't conducive to actually solving the issue presented by the comic, for that matter.  You can catch more flies with honey rather than vinegar, as the saying goes.

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anisotrophic
1 hour ago, Philip027 said:

every time it gets linked here it still comes off to me as angry feminism prop that is incidentally very insensitive toward males (just males in particular, even though this can easily happen to either sex) who have been pushed into a more "submissive" domestic role

“Angry” feminism? “Pushed” to be “submissive”, to do work in a “domestic role”?

 

giphy.gif?cid=82a1493bf623467ef3fcd4033d

 

I don’t plan to spend my life being a nag. I want a grown ass partner.

 

1 hour ago, Philip027 said:

You can catch more flies with honey rather than vinegar, as the saying goes.

The golden rule doesn’t always work. The dysfunction in my current relationship has been a demonstration of this. I’m no longer going to let my partner turn me into the “bad guy” for not giving him another chance.
 

That’s codependency: using my love for him to get me to accept excuses & promises, allowing him to persist in shitty behavior. Giving someone another chance because he needs to learn? Sure. But still singing that song after a decade and a half? That’s BS.

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2 hours ago, Philip027 said:

very insensitive toward males

Unfortunately this cause is not all helped by the men who brag and joke about things like “I washed my wife’s favorite sweater on hot, and now I will never have to do the laundry again.”

 

I completely agree that it’s not one-sided, and longstanding gender roles play a big role in how things play out, but I hear comments like that at work at least a couple of times a month from men who consider themselves modern and not sexist.

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17 minutes ago, ryn2 said:

Unfortunately this cause is not all helped by the men who brag and joke about things like “I washed my wife’s favorite sweater on hot, and now I will never have to do the laundry again.”

 

I completely agree that it’s not one-sided, and longstanding gender roles play a big role in how things play out, but I hear comments like that at work at least a couple of times a month from men who consider themselves modern and not sexist.

I dont see that joke as really sexist. I hear women joking they loaded the dishwasher wrong or mowed the yard crooked and so never have to do those things again. It is just a normal chore joke, cause everyone dislikes chores and everyone has their chores they like done a specific way. 

 

Like... I nearly brained myself with a drill so my mom never lets me use power tools 😛 She breaks computers so I don't let her set up new tech. 

 

I mean, my wife isnt good at chores. And if I wanted her to do them I would need to ask. But, to solve that we are making a chore board. She has her checklist to do, I have mine. If we need help with other stuff, just ask. If you don't ask, then you probably aren't gonna get help. 

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9 minutes ago, Serran said:

I dont see that joke as really sexist. I hear women joking they loaded the dishwasher wrong or mowed the yard crooked and so never have to do those things again. It is just a normal chore joke, cause everyone dislikes chores and everyone has their chores they like done a specific way. 

Interesting!  I have never heard a woman say anything comparable.  Around here it’s always the men.

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“Angry” feminism? “Pushed” to be “submissive”, to do work in a “domestic role”?

I'm sorry; do I stutter or something?

 

Quote

I mean, my wife isnt good at chores. And if I wanted her to do them I would need to ask. But, to solve that we are making a chore board. She has her checklist to do, I have mine. If we need help with other stuff, just ask. If you don't ask, then you probably aren't gonna get help. 

See, now that's an actual mature way of dealing with the issue.  Not just expecting the other person to be a mind reader (or an instant expert)

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anisotrophic
10 hours ago, PetalsOnTheShamrock said:

And that, fundamentally is the problem.  He doesn't want to be with the person I actually am.  The person I am at work, and with my friends.  The person that wants nothing to do with sex, kissing, and cuddling.  He wants the person he fell in love with in HS - the girl that was so broken from the abuse that she would do anything to make him happy so he wouldn't leave her.  "Sex? Video games? Constant back massages? Keep your dorm room clean and do your laundry?  Absolutely!  Whatever you want sweetie, I love you!"

I want to highlight this too as a core issue.

If you don't feel like he wants the person you are – but some broken version from the past –you're trapped in a bad pattern. A pattern that's hard to imagine changing in any way other than "parting ways". Whether it's risen to the level of abuse is an area I can't speak to, and a counselor can help you understanding – but you don't need to consider it "abusive" to decide that it's not a partnership you want to live with any longer.

As to your own sexuality, I think the main thing is to accept that you aren't sexually attracted to your partner. And that may be something well-earned by him, between not feeling valued for who you are & the suffering he caused (intentionally or not; though understanding he could & should have known better only makes it worse). Whether you could experience attraction to someone in the future is an unknown, and it's possible that this relationship has damaged your capacity for desire – or maybe it was never there – most importantly, there's nothing wrong with the absence. And given how the relationship has been for you, I don't think it's something to feel sorry for him about either.

I hope the counseling session tomorrow is good.

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