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The Autism and Asexuality 'Spectrum' (Split from How Did "Asexuality Is a Spectrum" become Dominant?)


Gifted With Singleness

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Gifted With Singleness

Split the Thread here as the topic of How Did "Asexuality Is a Spectrum" become Dominant? has gone Off Topic.  Split as a suggestion and hopefully the comments has been split correctly with this topic

 

Janus Dark Fox

Questions about Asexuality, Asexual Musings and Rantings & Open Mic Moderator

On 4/19/2020 at 3:41 PM, Anthracite_Impreza said:

Not solely that, but that was most certainly the final straw for that day, yes. It read as though the word "autism" was being used to mean... thick, essentially. That you were "autistic about it" because you didn't understand, like how people use OCD to mean "tidy". As someone diagnosed with and who struggles 24/7 due to autism, who has been bullied, abused and discriminated for it, having someone say they are "autistic in one way" definitely rubbed me up the wrong way.

 

But I'm glad you realise why it was wrong anyway.

Speaking of autism, a thought occurred to me. How much do you think people are referring to asexuality as a spectrum purely to try to compare it to autism? I feel like I've noticed some interesting parallels in the ways that people talk about both "spectrums".

 

Most people are neurotypical, also known as allistic. But some people are neuro-atypical and fall somewhere on the autism spectrum. Some people have high-functioning autism, and some people have low-functioning autism. But even though high-functioning autism may not seem like autism, it still falls within the autism spectrum.

 

Most people are "sexually typical", also known as allosexual. But some people are sexually atypical and fall somewhere on the asexual spectrum. Some people are gray-asexual, and some people are sex-repulsed. But even though gray-asexuality may not seem like asexuality, it still falls within the asexual spectrum.

 

See what I mean? Even if these people aren't saying that asexuality is autism, they seem to portray asexuality and autism as having a similar "spectral structure", so to speak. Under this framework, gray asexuals are the "high-functioning aces", and sex-repulsed asexuals are the "low-functioning aces". And I'm not sure how to feel about that.

 

Anyway, perhaps these parallels ended up serving as an unconscious bias behind that aforementioned autism post of mine.

 

What do you guys think about all this?

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everywhere and nowhere

@GiftedWithSingleness - I'm not entirely convinced, but I find the parallel impressive. Still, I think that autistic people would be the right ones to ask about it.

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14 minutes ago, GiftedWithSingleness said:

Speaking of autism, a thought occurred to me. How much do you think people are referring to asexuality as a spectrum purely to try to compare it to autism? I feel like I've noticed some interesting parallels in the ways that people talk about both "spectrums".

I think the term "spectrum" has come to popularity in part because of how it's used to describe conditions or characteristics like autism, which affect people to differing levels in terms of their thinking style and how compatible that is with the way society is designed in line with a neurotypical bias. I can understand why people's line of thought leads there, but I think it is easily abused and insufficient to apply it to asexuality. Autism has a range of traits and manifestations in thinking and behaviour. Asexuality is simpler than that, because it's a lack of something. The different "types" of asexuality are only "asexual" and "practically asexual"; the rest of the things that make the community diverse are beyond asexuality in itself because we're not limited by that orientation.

 

I'm not an expert in neurodivergence, so I don't have much more to say on a comparison in a scientific or conceptual way. But I think the "high-/low-functioning aces" notion that you mention is detrimental to the reputation and understanding of asexuality as a whole. It still places emphasis on sexuality and sexual activity being functionally necessary and that is not what the message should be from the ace community. It's like the message that LGB people can't help it because they were born that way - which rests on the assumption that if they could help it, they would be straight, because that's the correct way to exist. I very very strongly disagree with that. (I also disagree with the idea that autistic people - or people with disabilities in general - would be "normal" if they wanted to, because the notion we have of able-bodied and able-minded is some absolute truth instead of a consequence of how societies have been designed. But that's more of a PPS/HoBo topic...)

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Gifted With Singleness
2 hours ago, Snao Cone said:

Autism has a range of traits and manifestations in thinking and behaviour. Asexuality is simpler than that

I mean, I know that, but have you seen the microlabels?

 

Attracted to people, but not based on looks? Asexual spectrum.

Only attracted to people you know? Asexual spectrum.

Only attracted to strangers? Asexual spectrum.

Want to give but not receive? Asexual spectrum.

Want to receive but not give? Asexual spectrum.

Want to have partnered sex, but don't care who? Asexual spectrum.

Not horny 24/7? Asexual spectrum.

 

That certainly seems like a big "range of traits and manifestations in thinking and behavior" are being lumped into one big spectrum called asexuality.

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2 hours ago, GiftedWithSingleness said:

I mean, I know that, but have you seen the microlabels?

 

Attracted to people, but not based on looks? Asexual spectrum.

Only attracted to people you know? Asexual spectrum.

Only attracted to strangers? Asexual spectrum.

Want to give but not receive? Asexual spectrum.

Want to receive but not give? Asexual spectrum.

Want to have partnered sex, but don't care who? Asexual spectrum.

Not horny 24/7? Asexual spectrum.

 

That certainly seems like a big "range of traits and manifestations in thinking and behavior" are being lumped into one big spectrum called asexuality.

Those things you listed aren't asexual though, even though some do insist on (incorrectly) trying to lump them into some 'ace spectrum'.

 

Whereas autism spectrum encompasses traits that can literally be diagnosed and classified by a medical professional.

 

So autism spectrum is a legitimate spectrum based on actual scientific/medical diagnosis, as opposed to the 'ace spectrum' which is based on forced inclusivity and a lack of understanding about just varied 'allosexuality' actually is!

 

(Edit for clarity: I don't actually know much about autism, I just know it needs to be diagnosed by a professional due to there scientifically being specific traits involved, which is very different from what people mean when they talk about an 'ace spectrum')

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Alejandrogynous

I don't know about autism to speak on it but I think the asexuality "spectrum" was probably more inspired by the expansion of the LGBT+ and the trendiness of overly specific labels that grew out of that. 

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Anthracite_Impreza

1. I entirely reject functioning labels

2. Asexual doesn't need a spectrum, it's really very simple. No other orientation needs a spectrum, they just recognise not everyone's exactly the same. Autism however, is a medical/disability/neurological thing that impacts every single part of life, not just one. It's described as a spectrum primarily to differentiate it from medical issues that are pretty standard in form, like, idk, cystic fibrosis.

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Janus the Fox

Attack the idea, not personal identities, AVEN has a duty to accommodate all asexual perspectives.  While autism is not related to Asexuality, some are both here and some do hold that this intersection is linked.  Autism affects nearly all aspects of life the further down the functionality spectrum one is.  Asexuality is not diagnosable like it once was 50 or more years ago, there’s already established reasons the LGBT are now de-medicalised.  Remaining on topic is advised.

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1 hour ago, Janus DarkFox said:

Attack the idea, not personal identities, AVEN has a duty to accommodate all asexual perspectives.  While autism is not related to Asexuality, some are both here and some do hold that this intersection is linked.  Autism affects nearly all aspects of life the further down the functionality spectrum one is.  Asexuality is not diagnosable like it once was 50 or more years ago, there’s already established reasons the LGBT are now de-medicalised.  Remaining on topic is advised.

You mean the autism-stuff? Everything that's being said is still relating back to the idea of an ace spectrum and when and why the spectrum idea was introduced (the topic of the opening post). The discussion is just evolving and branching out while keeping that central theme. 

 

Ps: you brought up something that seems to be off topic when you said "asexuality isn't diagnosable like it was 50 years ago". Asexuality wasn't a recognised sexual orientation 50 years ago, and sexual orientations have never been 'diagnosed', so I'm not sure what you meant with that? And we weren't discussing asexuality as an orientation, but the idea of an asexual spectrum that includes all types of sexual desire and sexual preference. So I'm not sure exactly what your comment was in response to?

 

 

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Janus the Fox
2 hours ago, Not Pan Ficto. said:

Ps: you brought up something that seems to be off topic when you said "asexuality isn't diagnosable like it was 50 years ago". Asexuality wasn't a recognised sexual orientation 50 years ago, and sexual orientations have never been 'diagnosed', so I'm not sure what you meant with that? And we weren't discussing asexuality as an orientation, but the idea of an asexual spectrum that includes all types of sexual desire and sexual preference. So I'm not sure exactly what your comment was in response to?

No directed response really, just keeping an eye on things keeping the topic balanced.  There’s a deeper history of parts of the LGBT being medicalised.  Homosexuality was a diagnosed condition in like the 1920s same with Asexuality in the 1970s .  British medical text anyway, there are Aces here old enough to have their orientation diagnosed.  The similarity with Autism is that it’s being treated as an orientation in a number of groups that can’t access medical diagnosis.  Autism too has a similar recognition timeframe, which became more recognised in the 1990s 

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5 hours ago, Not Pan Ficto. said:

Asexuality wasn't a recognised sexual orientation 50 years ago...

I thought it was recognized with Alfred Kinsey. As much as I have a problem with the Kinsey Scale, I think asexuality was considered its own thing in his research and it was never related back to any medical conditions. If I'm wrong, please correct me, though. 

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4 hours ago, AceWing said:

I thought it was recognized with Alfred Kinsey. As much as I have a problem with the Kinsey Scale, I think asexuality was considered its own thing in his research and it was never related back to any medical conditions. If I'm wrong, please correct me, though. 

I think Kinsey looked at it all as a big spectrum, with the people who don't want any sex at all at one end? But yeah it wasn't like the doctor would then go "you are diagnosed with asexuality" I don't think? 😛 I was more just confused over the wording 'diagnosed with asexuality' like asexuality itself (the label) is something you could be diagnosed with, when I don't think that label was being used at the time to refer to a sexual orientation at all? It would be interesting to see some research into that either way :)

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8 hours ago, Janus DarkFox said:

No directed response really, just keeping an eye on things keeping the topic balanced.  There’s a deeper history of parts of the LGBT being medicalised.  Homosexuality was a diagnosed condition in like the 1920s same with Asexuality in the 1970s .  British medical text anyway, there are Aces here old enough to have their orientation diagnosed.  The similarity with Autism is that it’s being treated as an orientation in a number of groups that can’t access medical diagnosis.  Autism too has a similar recognition timeframe, which became more recognised in the 1990s 

Interesting! Maybe we should split the thread if the discussion keeps veering to the autism spectrum topic? Because I need to ask further now: if asexuality was something people were genuinely being 'diagnosed' with (as a sexual orientation) that long ago, like with that label, how come everyone who comes to AVEN, regardless of their age (and especially older people) say they have suffered for their entire adult lives not knowing why they never truly wanted sex? One would think more people would have been aware of asexuality if it was in the public eye enough to actually be 'diagnosed'. Or are you referring to how they used to refer to genderless-ness (what would be agender now?) as asexuality? Because I know that happened for a time.

 

8 hours ago, Janus DarkFox said:

The similarity with Autism is that it’s being treated as an orientation in a number of groups that can’t access medical diagnosis.  Autism too has a similar recognition timeframe, which became more recognised in the 1990s 

(This is why I'm wondering if the thread should be split). I'm genuinely interested to know why autism would be treated as an 'orientation'. Or do you mean, it's something you are born with for the most part? (which as far as I know is accurate). Isn't it offensive to autistic people when someone who again might just be a bit antisocial or pedantic says "oh I'm so autistic, I hate it if my room is too messy" or they're socially awkward or whatever, and start self-identifying as autistic as a result? 

 

There are definitely parallels between the 'ace spectrum' and the autism spectrum in that sense @GiftedWithSingleness, in that people try to force themselves into both spectrums based on incorrect (and sometimes even offensive) assumptions about asexuality and/or autism. If that's all you were trying to draw to draw attention to then I apologise for the misunderstanding. 

 

(Edit: I had a close friend from AVEN for a time who was diagnosed with autism. Daily life was hell for him and people would get so angry at him during online group calls (for our gaming) because he didn't understand a lot of social stuff and would wander off during calls and things. His whole life was a constant struggle not only because of his autism but also because of the way people reacted to it with aggression, mockery, and anger. Even when he tried to be open with them and explain that he is autistic, they'd be like "that's no excuse for being rude!!" (when he'd wandered off during call for like the 10th time which was an issue for him in real life too). Autism definitely has 'levels' and can be very severe for some people (even much more severe than my AVEN friend experiences) so when you see people without autism making a mockery of it, in a way, by saying "oh I hate not having my pencils colour co-ordinated, I'm so autistic" yeah that's really offensive and infuriating. It's not some casual orientation or whatever that people can just jump on for the lols) 😕

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Gifted With Singleness
44 minutes ago, Not Pan Ficto. said:

There are definitely parallels between the 'ace spectrum' and the autism spectrum in that sense @GiftedWithSingleness, in that people try to force themselves into both spectrums based on incorrect (and sometimes even offensive) assumptions about asexuality and/or autism. If that's all you were trying to draw to draw attention to then I apologise for the misunderstanding. 

Yeah, that's pretty much all I was trying to say. Glad that confusion's over.

 

One thing I will say (and this is one reason I brought up that connection) is that the phrase "on the spectrum" has very clear connotations of autism. So when people say, "I'm on the asexual spectrum", it just seems ... eerily similar. After all, bisexuality is technically a spectrum (that would be the Kinsey scale), but I don't think I've ever encountered anyone saying, verbatim, "I'm on the bisexual spectrum."

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Anthracite_Impreza

You know, in a way, I think you might be right. More and more things are being seen as spectra nowadays and autism is currently "a big thing", so maybe people are just hijacking that language, not even thinking about how (un)suitable it is. I truly hope it's not the case, cos it's incredibly fucking offensive, but since when did anyone care what we autists feel anyway ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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I'm confused. The term "spectrum" has been--and is used--in science and math; I'm pretty sure that's where I first came across the term, in science and math classes. So, there are several different definitions. It doesn't only refer to "autism spectrum." So, if someone uses the term, referring to a "spectrum" that doesn't mean they "took it" from the Autistic usage.

 

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/spectrum

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spectrum

 

 

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Anthracite_Impreza
1 minute ago, LeChat said:

I'm confused. The term "spectrum" has been--and is used--in science and math; I'm pretty sure that's where I first came across the term, in school classes. So, there are several different definitions. It doesn't only refer to "autism spectrum." So, if someone uses the term, referring to a "spectrum" that doesn't mean they "took it" from the Autistic usage.

 

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/spectrum

No, but think about its popular usage in society today. 99% of people are not thinking of the electromagnetic spectrum when they hear that word.

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19 minutes ago, Anthracite_Impreza said:

No, but think about its popular usage in society today. 99% of people are not thinking of the electromagnetic spectrum when they hear that word.

I am. (in my memes, at least)

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Anthracite_Impreza

Yer face is a spectrum.

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Skipper Valvoline
39 minutes ago, Anthracite_Impreza said:

You know, in a way, I think you might be right. More and more things are being seen as spectra nowadays and autism is currently "a big thing", so maybe people are just hijacking that language, not even thinking about how (un)suitable it is. I truly hope it's not the case, cos it's incredibly fucking offensive, but since when did anyone care what we autists feel anyway ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Hmm, y'all may be on to something. Come to think, there's also been the whole 'gender spectrum' going on in the last few years...

 

So then which spectrum came first? (In terms of popularity; which one did all the others mooch off of if this is indeed the case?)

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4 minutes ago, Anthracite_Impreza said:

Yer face is a spectrum.

It does have a range of colours, from white, to slightly less white, to red from all of the scar tissue.

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Anthracite_Impreza
4 minutes ago, Skipper Valvoline said:

So then which spectrum came first?

I reckon autism, it's had the longest recognised history (sadly I believe from the Nazis first, in an attempt to decide which ones of us were worthy of keeping alive).

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9 minutes ago, Skipper Valvoline said:

So then which spectrum came first? (In terms of popularity; which one did all the others mooch off of if this is indeed the case?)

 

4 minutes ago, Anthracite_Impreza said:

I reckon autism, it's had the longest recognised history (sadly I believe from the Nazis first, in an attempt to decide which ones of us were worthy of keeping alive).

It's possibly autism, but I first saw it being used with fetal alcohol syndrome (now known as fetal alcohol spectrum disorder).

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Gifted With Singleness
32 minutes ago, Skipper Valvoline said:

So then which spectrum came first? (In terms of popularity; which one did all the others mooch off of if this is indeed the case?)

Well, I definitely find it hard to believe that autism took the spectrum language from asexuality. How would that even work?

 

But just to be sure, I did a little research, and it looks like autism started being referred to as a spectrum with the publication of the DSM-5 in 2013, in order to effectively merge four similar diagnoses together.

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I literally thought "spectrum" was only being used because it's another, alternative, academic way of saying "continuum" and/or because it's used in other fields, too, particularly for statistics and showing graphics, explaining to others gradual shades of things. "Spectrum" has been used in the sciences for hundreds of years, since the 17th century. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spectrum

 

Plus, "spectrum" is a lot shorter to say when it comes to syllables (only two, versus four) and probably easier for other to hear and understand, whereas some may not be familiar with "continuum," might be confused when someone pronouns it aloud because the beginning of it sounds like "continue," then it has the "um" at the end. Also, perhaps, some people view using "spectrum" as less "posh" sounding, than "continuum;" I've seen some academics mention that they don't like to alienate their audience when trying to explain or give a presentation to people of various education levels by using more obscure, academic words that they might not be familiar with.

 

However, I have come across some sites discussing asexually that use "continuum," instead of "spectrum."

 

I didn't know using "spectrum" for asexuality would be considered a big deal, particularly when I've come across sex psychologists and university professors who've used the term when discussing sexual orientation (i.e. that it's a "spectrum" from asexuality to heterosexuality, homosexuality, pansexuality, etc.)

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Gifted With Singleness

@LeChat It's not just the word "spectrum" that made me think of this connection. There's more to it than that.

 

Lots of spectra are one-dimensional, and it can make sense to think of the "asexual-sexual spectrum" as a range from zero sexual desire to lots of sexual desire. If the people promoting the spectrum model were only saying that the people "close enough to the zero point" were asexual, and that the asexual spectrum was just, say, the 0 to 0.1 range of a linear spectrum, then it wouldn't be that big of a deal.

 

But that's not what I'm seeing. Here's a list of "asexual spectrum identities" that I've encountered:

 

2017-28-10-18-48-23.jpeg

 

That's not a one-dimensional spectrum. This is something very different. It looks to me like people are taking a bunch of different ways that you can be "sexually atypical" (at least according to them) and lumping them all into one giant, multi-dimensional spectrum. Some of these labels are actually opposites of each other, like demisexuality and fraysexuality, or placiosexuality and iamvanosexuality. This strikes me as weirdly similar to the autism spectrum, which, to my knowledge, is also multi-dimensional.

 

The other thing I noted is that people will often say, "I'm on the asexual spectrum", which is a weirdly similar phraseology to, "I'm on the spectrum", implying autism. But even though things like bisexuality and being non-binary are often seen as spectra, I don't recall anyone saying, verbatim, "I'm on the bisexual spectrum", or "I'm on the non-binary spectrum". If people do say things like that, I just haven't seen it.

 

By the way, I'm not totally convinced that people are actually trying to hijack autism language and apply it to asexuality. People might genuinely just be using the word "spectrum" in the way you describe. It's just that I have seen enough parallels with autism to make me suspicious, that's all.

 

Like I said, it's not just the word "spectrum".

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everywhere and nowhere
22 hours ago, Not Pan Ficto. said:

I think Kinsey looked at it all as a big spectrum, with the people who don't want any sex at all at one end?

Not really, Kinsey was trying to place human sexualities on a spectrum of sexual orientations, from completely homosexual to completely heterosexual, with bisexuals with varying gender preferences in the middle. This is why what we now call asexuality was called "group X" in his studies - there could be a number for asexuality on a sexuality spectrum which goes from "without any desire for sex" to "considering sex a very important part of one's life", but not on a spectrum from "exclusive preference for same-gender partners" to "exclusive preference for different-gender partners".

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everywhere and nowhere

@GiftedWithSingleness - I won't quote, because I'm generally against quotes which include large images or image series... but wow. "Wow" in a negative sense. Do they seriously expect anyone to use terms such as "lamvanosexual"? And what is, in fact, the difference between "abrosexual" and "aceflux"?

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Gifted With Singleness
14 minutes ago, Nowhere Girl said:

And what is, in fact, the difference between "abrosexual" and "aceflux"?

Probably the same as the difference between "idemsexual" and "quoisexual". Random hair-splitting.

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Alejandrogynous

That infographic hurts my eyes and my brain.

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