How Did "Asexuality Is a Spectrum" become Dominant?

[Gifted With Singleness]

1 hour ago, Not Pan Ficto. said:

Then when you ask the person to describe sexual attraction they always have the inaccurate definition of "getting horny when I see a hot person" (many sexual people would actually be ace if that was an accurate definition)

You know, I think I can understand where that inaccurate definition came from. Looks often play a significant role in sexual attraction, and a lot of people describe those they're sexually attracted to as good-looking (or something to that effect). However, because a lot of asexual people still experience aesthetic attraction, there ended up being a lot of questions that went something like, "Is it sexual attraction if I think that person looks nice?" People responded to those questions by saying, "It would only be sexual attraction if you wanted to have sex with that person." What the questioning people took away from that is that sexual attraction is aesthetic attraction combined with sexual desire, not realizing that the aesthetic attraction is completely irrelevant. Then, a bunch of people with no doubts about their sexual desires saw this inaccurate definition and thought, "Well, I have sexual desire, but I don't have aesthetic attraction. So I must not experience sexual attraction, making me asexual." After that, the inaccurate definition started to take on a life of its own.

 

There also seems to be a weird trend of people thinking that sexual attraction is some kind of otherworldly, undefinable force that has absolutely no relation to practical reality. Apparently, you can have an intense, burning desire to have passionate sex with all the people in the world all the time and still not experience this mythical "sexual attraction", whatever that is. I wouldn't be surprised to see people saying things like, "Sexual attraction is when you feel all 'hot chacha awooga' about someone. I definitely want to have sex with people, but I don't think I would describe that feeling as 'hot chacha awooga'. It's more of a cutesy 'aww' type feeling, so I'm still ace."

 

Like, do people not get that when we talk about sexual orientation, we're not talking about Hogwarts houses or spirit animals? This isn't some geeky personality test. This shit actually affects real life.

 

2 hours ago, Not Pan Ficto. said:

Heck there was one asexual guy here for a while INSISTING sexuals feel a constant underlying 'sexual attraction' meaning an ace could actively desire sex 25 times a day with 13 different people and still be ace (according to him) because aces don't feel that 'constant underlying need', and like 30 different sexuals on AVEN tried explaining why he's wrong and he told us all that we are just blinded by our own bias and are the most unqualified people to try to explain sexuality because we can't look at it objectively

WTF? Is it even possible to have that much sex in one day? Maybe if you're going to a massive orgy or something...

 

3 hours ago, Not Pan Ficto. said:

(Ps the AVEN FAQ was recently updated to more accurately represent 'average sexuality' so that's one step forward at least!! Unfortunately most people don't even know the FAQ exists though, heh)

Where is that section? I tried looking at the FAQ, and I didn't see anything about 'average sexuality'.

[Diana DeLuna]

On 4/12/2020 at 11:53 PM, Serran said:

I mean... honestly, isn't that already kinda a thing? When I ID'd as ace and was trying to find other aces to date, I found it extremely difficult to find anyone that didn't want sex to be part of the relationship (and quite honestly, I recommend any asexual to ask about this before dating another ace). A "sex free asexual" was what I ended up looking for... which seemed like a needle in a haystack. I got "asexual - well, actually cupiosexual but it's on the spectrum so I just say ace" and "asexual... well, really sapiosexual, but it's on the spectrum so I just say ace", etc, etc. People ranged from wanting sex once per month to several times per week. Several aces profiles I had looked at had things on it like "I've tried dating other asexuals and none of them are actually asexual, so just don't message me if you want to date. Looking for friends only." I ended up resorting to dating sexuals on the online dating sites, because I literally couldn't find an asexual that wasn't also seeking sex from me and at that point, why bother not widening the pool to include sexuals? 

 

It's one reason I very, very, very firmly refuse to use the label demisexual or anything. Sure, technically, I fit "demi" - my wife is the only person to ever trigger sexual attraction in me and it's actually caused friction in our marriage that she experiences it regularly for other people and I only experience it for her... but people try to lump me in with aces if I use it and I very firmly do not want to in any way use the term asexual or anything related to it because I am not asexual . I love my sex life with my wife, we have frequent sexual encounters we both want and desire and enjoy. We've bought three drawers full of sex toys to enjoy together. While apart due to LDR visa issues, we do virtual sex stuff.  In absolutely no way am I asexual. I am not "on the spectrum". Sure, I can relate to aces in many ways due to not experiencing sexual attraction for 30 years and IDing as ace for five, but I am not an ace.

Congratulations on finding love and happiness and confidence in your identity. But shit, your ace dating experience is a scary story. Okay, 90% of those people do not sound Ace at all. The chance of finding that awesome QPR truly is just a fantasy, isn't it? 😕

 

To me "demisexuality" just seems like what society expects women to be anyway. "Demisexual" is Drew Barrymore in literally all her comedies. It's also Steve Carell in the 40 Year Old Virgin. All those sweet, adorable, enticing goddamn movies I used to love and subconsciously identify with as I waited for "My One" to come along and sweep me off my feet late in life, too! 💖🥰🤩💘

 

Snort. Eventually The One really did show up, but both of our inabilities to come to terms with my Acehood rendered the whole relationship a smoking pile of wreckage soon enough. There was no "demi" in me after all. Demi feels like a lie they tell good girls to keep them good while also still keeping them fresh in the reproductive pool.

 

Before I'm chased out of the room, let me say self-identified demi's and grays are fine with me. I only learned all these terms a few months ago and certainly have no right to gatekeep. 

 

Not the best analogy, but say I was agnostic. Given a choice between two forums, one for Rah-Rah God people and one for subversive atheists, as a critical thinking type, I know who I'd rather hang out with.

 

 

[Snao Cone]

5 minutes ago, Diana DeLuna (IvoryBill) said:

Not the best analogy, but say I was agnostic. Given a choice between two forums, one for Rah-Rah God people and one for subversive atheists, as a critical thinking type, I know who I'd rather hang out with.

1) There is no such thing as a perfect analogy, especially on AVEN, so don't feel bad for putting forward one that's merely well thought out.

2) I think this is actually a pretty useful analogy in many ways, because it gives a parallel for why grey folks would fit in here, and how using different terms clarifies things. People should know what asexual means and people should know what grey means, and people should understand the differences between those two while also respecting them as valid descriptors of their a/sexuality. Atheists and agnostics have a lot of overlap in their views and experiences, and they'd have a lot to talk about. I've known of a few organizations that include both, but they don't refer to this range of views as an "atheist spectrum".

[Guest]

1 hour ago, GiftedWithSingleness said:

Where is that section? I tried looking at the FAQ, and I didn't see anything about 'average sexuality'.

Oh what I meant was, they defined 'normal' (I usually get yelled at for that word) sexuality in much more accurate terms. They didn't say "this is normal sexuality" (lol) but previously there were a lot of weird assumptions and misunderstandings in the FAQ. Like the assumption that to be sexual, you look at hot people and get horny. That was pretty blatantly stated in one part of the FAQ previously. The FAQ was only updated last year and while it's still not perfect, it's a LOT better than what it was and more accurately reflects 'normal' 'average' sexuality now.

 

1 hour ago, GiftedWithSingleness said:

WTF? Is it even possible to have that much sex in one day? Maybe if you're going to a massive orgy or something...

We had someone here once who genuinely wanted the ace community to open ace sex clubs so asexuals could meet for indiscriminate group sex The debate over that idea raged for months and quite a few people quit AVEN over it at the time lol

[Diana DeLuna]

14 hours ago, Not Pan Ficto. said:

We had someone here once who genuinely wanted the ace community to open ace sex clubs so asexuals could meet for indiscriminate group sex The debate over that idea raged for months and quite a few people quit AVEN over it at the time lol

Uuuuuummmmm, errrrrrr.... I think this just broke my brain. Now an ace club to meet for dancing and cake and a 75 - 80% chance of hugs...? Yes, please, sign me up!

[Gifted With Singleness]

22 hours ago, Snao Cone said:

It seems ironic, though, that in the asexual community the attempt to make it a more ethereal concept that more loosely communicates "doesn't experience sexuality the way 95-99% of people do" is hanging onto the much more concrete word.

I think this is the real issue here. The word asexual is so crystal clear. Asexual. Not sexual. If that word gets taken from us, what are we left with?

 

I swear, this thread is making me more and more sympathetic to the sex-repulsed crowd, and I'm not even sex-repulsed. Constantly being mistaken for a sex-lover when you've already made it crystal clear that you're asexual must be downright infuriating.

 

It also makes me glad that I'm aromantic, since asexual dating sounds like a nightmare with all that confusion. I don't know how you guys put up with it.

[Diana DeLuna]

1 hour ago, GiftedWithSingleness said:

I think this is the real issue here. The word asexual is so crystal clear. Asexual. Not sexual. If that word gets taken from us, what are we left with?

This!

 

My biggest problem with the whole a-spec concept is that it's hard to explain to allos. When someone asked me recently what each stripe in the Ace flag meant, I found myself stumbling when I got to the gray stripe because as soon as I started explaining the little-to-no-sex spectrum, I saw their eyes noticeably roll. It gave me that old familiar stomach-sickness I always feel when someone is not taking me seriously or something I care about seriously. It just feels really important right now for the whole Ace community to be taken seriously, but there's never going to be a united front on the a-spec concept.

 

It's the chicken-egg conundrum: Does the fault lie with the general public's simple-minded intolerance of nuance, or with the Ace community and all its clear-as-mud subtypes?

[Philip027]

Can't it be both?

 

But yeah, I was never sold on the ideas behind the ace "flag", because it implies that we're of such a pitiful number that we don't stand out on our own and therefore aren't deserving of a flag that's just our own, and we have to incorporate everyone else (the sexuals and greys) just to be able to construct a proper flag design.  And technically, that implication isn't far out of place from the reality (we are the "invisible orientation" after all, and as such we usually do not stand out), but as a supposed emblem for aces to rally behind, it still doesn't really generate good vibes for the ace crowd.

 

In short, I can totally see why non-aces would roll their eyes at our flag once they know what everything means.

 

But then, I feel like flags for anything besides countries/nations are kind of silly in the first place, sooooo

[will123]

On 4/12/2020 at 11:05 PM, Snao Cone said:

It's the word "spectrum" that everyone wants to hump. It's a buzzword and it's increasingly making my twitch. And it also feeds the eagerness some people have to call themselves something other than what they are, just to feel more unique. It's a non-answer to give somebody when they ask "I like my partner for reasons other than their body, so I'm sort of asexual, right?" because people don't want to be bothered to get wrapped up in that kind of discussion.

Have people actually said this? Oh my. I don't know how anyone could sit on the fence so to speak on a matter like this.

[deletingthisaccount]

I would say the last couple of years or so. During the time period that I was researching asexuality to figure myself out, back in 2014-2015, I remember the information (not AVEN specifically, just the internet generally) was more focused on the concept of asexuality, not an asexual spectrum. Although I read about graysexuality and demisexuality, the "asexual spectrum" wasn't THE representation of asexuality.

 

My opinion is the same as yours - that sexuality is a spectrum, with asexuality at one of the spectrum. I used to support the concept of an "asexual spectrum," but after a few months on AVEN, my opinion has quickly changed. The public is still largely unaware and non-understanding of asexuality as is. Let alone trying to educate people on the topic while saying "we don't experience sexual attraction, but here's  2,237,392 exceptions -- or create your own exception!" (Obviously that's an exaggeration, but it certainly seem that way sometimes.) It's just very confusing.

 

All of life is a spectrum. If we want to account for the people who do for the most part fall close to the asexual side of a sexuality spectrum (which I don't think is like 50% of the world's population, as AVEN has made it out to be, but likely a small percentage of people), I think we can accomplish that without actively advertising asexuality as an umbrella term. Also, asexuals who have sex as compromise are still equally as valid asexuals who don't, even without asexuality spectrum.

 

(Edit: I want to clarify my statement about how my opinion changing after coming onto AVEN, because I realized that I might have came across the wrong way. What I mean is that now that I'm actively becoming involved in the asexual community and discourse, I've realized how much the asexual spectrum concept has been stretched far beyond what was intended. For example, I had no idea that AVEN took a position at one point that asexual = anyone who wants to identify that way. And that notion has definitely changed the way society views us. So I wasn't directly that comment at anyone or anything specifically. We're a diverse group of people and that's great. I just think that "anyone can be asexual!" has gone too far.)

[Gifted With Singleness]

I wonder, do you think there might be more of an overlap in experiences between asexual people and many sexual people than we might be giving credit for? Back in the day, there was a common recognition that you could want to have sex even if it wasn't that big of a deal to you. There are all sorts of things a person can be interested in doing, and sex is just one of them. But that recognition seems to be gone now.

 

Even the church seems to have lost this recognition. I've heard sermons from pastors who must have looked at the epidemic of pornography addiction and concluded from it that everyone really really really wants to have sex. These pastors would say things like, "Sex outside of marriage is forbidden. But sex within marriage is actually commanded. Isn't that amazing? God actually commands us to have sex in marriage! What joy!" I don't think you have to be asexual to be bothered by that message, even if you're planning on saving sex for marriage. What if your spouse has a higher sex drive than you? What if they have really weird kinks that feel degrading to you? Are you just supposed to give in?

 

I think it's clear that there are many, many sexual people who are trying to find some kind of refuge from the most hypersexual aspects of our culture. People with low sex drives or who are more reserved in bed need a place to be able to vent these frustrations, and it looks like a lot of them are resorting to places like AVEN.

 

I think that asexual people and sexually reserved people can form a powerful alliance to fight back against expectations of hypersexuality. But we also need to make clear the ways in which we differ. It seems that the people more focused on the first goal are saying that asexuality is a spectrum, whereas the people more focused on the second goal are saying it's not.

 

Is there a way to meet both of these goals at the same time? If we can find a way to do that, it just might help to resolve this seemingly endless debate.

[Zagadka]

Because I'm too nice and I want people to feel included. Honestly, I just can't deny people their access to the community. It is small enough as it is.

[Guest]

On 4/15/2020 at 12:24 PM, will123 said:

Have people actually said this? Oh my. I don't know how anyone could sit on the fence so to speak on a matter like this.

Yeah it's really common sadly. Asexuality is defined so loosely now (by many people anyway) that the vast majority of average sexual people actually do fall on the 'ace spectrum' which is just one of the reason why so many people have such an issue with the whole 'ace spec' thing.

[Guest]

4 hours ago, Zagadka said:

Because I'm too nice and I want people to feel included. Honestly, I just can't deny people their access to the community. It is small enough as it is.

I'm not even ace (I once thought I was) but I'm still 100% welcome in this community even though my sexuality evolved over time.

 

I also have 100% sexual friends on AVEN who have always been sexual etc, but for whatever reason they have more in common with many people here so enjoy spending time on AVEN, they're still 100% welcome!!! They are even massively respected on AVEN and loved by many people!!

 

So just because someone may not fit the definition of 'asexual' doesn't mean the definition itself needs to be opened up solely for people to be welcome in this community. All that does is harm people who are actually asexual (because it takes away any real meaning to the label) while inciting mockery and doubt from the rest of the world.

 

The ace community is already a very inclusive place (as long as you're not too vocally 'right wing', haha). Opening the definition of 'asexual' up to include literally any type of person with any type of sexuality couldn't make this community any more inclusive than it already is!

[Guest]

4 hours ago, GiftedWithSingleness said:

I wonder, do you think there might be more of an overlap in experiences between asexual people and many sexual people than we might be giving credit for?

Only when the definition of asexuality is spread too far. That's part of the issue with the idea of an 'asexual spectrum'.

 

Many, many sexual people go for long periods when they have no interest in sex for whatever reason. Many aren't actually miserable without sex. Many don't get aroused just from seeing an attractive person. Etc etc. So when you open the definition of 'asexual' up to include all those kinds of variations as a kind of asexuality, you actually end up with a massive overlap because most sexual people would actually fall on the ace spectrum.

 

This stems from a misunderstanding perpetuated right throughout the asexual community about what actually makes sexual people 'sexual'. Many in the community assume that sexual people function in one very specific way and if you're not like that, you're some kind of ace. That's a huge issue here.

 

When ace is defined solely as what it is (an asexual is someone who lacks an innate desire to connect sexually with other people for their own pleasure, ever) then there is no overlap. No sexual person NEVER desires partnered sexual intimacy, even if they're someone with a very low libido or very little sexual interest, or repulsed or whatever; that desire will still crop up sometimes in their life based on whatever it is that triggers that person specifically. Only asexuals have that perpetual lack of innate desire for partnered sexual contact (though yes they might still masturbate or even have sex for various external reasons like trying to 'fit in' or to make a sexual partner happy or whatever).

 

Just as a gay man will always innately have a preference for sex with other men, even if he has had sex with women to keep up appearances or whatever, his innate preference will always be men. Even before he actually 'discovers' that he's  gay - as many gay people don't actually work out their true sexuality until years of dissatisfying heterosexual encounters. An asexual person is the same in that they will always have an innate preference to not have sexual intimacy with other people, even if they went for years thinking they were straight and/or gay but not being able to understand why the sex never satisfied them! 

 

 

 

 

[Gifted With Singleness]

41 minutes ago, Not Pan Ficto. said:

When ace is defined solely as what it is (an asexual is someone who lacks an innate desire to connect sexually with other people for their own pleasure, ever) then there is no overlap.

Are you suggesting that asexuals and low-interest sexuals have literally nothing in common? Because that's a rather strange thing to imply.

 

We're not aliens. It's not like we're the only ones who get pressured into sexual situations we don't want to be in. It's not like we're the only ones who feel alienated seeing sex everywhere in the media.

 

Lots of sexual people still have very legitimate grievances about the way sex is portrayed in much of society. Lots of sexual people still feel pressured to be more sexual than they actually are. These are grievances that we can bond over, and this is the overlap I'm referring to. Obviously this doesn't mean that people with a low libido are ace, but two things can be true at the same time. It can be true that we have important differences, but it can also be true that we have important similarities.

 

Gay and bisexual people both experience same-sex attraction. Straight and bisexual people both experience opposite-sex attraction. Straight and ace people both lack same-sex attraction. Gay and ace people both lack opposite-sex attraction. It's not like we're all living on our own separate islands. We can bond over our similarities while simultaneously recognizing our differences. And my last comment was simply me asking the question of how best to do that.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, GiftedWithSingleness said:

Are you suggesting that asexuals and low-interest sexuals have literally nothing in common? Because that's a rather strange thing to imply.

As I already clarified, asexuals have no innate desire to connect sexually with other people. Low interest sexuals still have that desire at times otherwise they would be asexual. That's the fundamental difference. They can of course have other things in common beside that fundamental thing which defines whether they are sexual or asexual.

 

1 hour ago, GiftedWithSingleness said:

It's not like we're the only ones who get pressured into sexual situations we don't want to be in. It's not like we're the only ones who feel alienated seeing sex everywhere in the media

Never disagreed with any of that, or said anything that would suggest I think that sexuals don't experience those things.

 

1 hour ago, GiftedWithSingleness said:

Lots of sexual people still have very legitimate grievances about the way sex is portrayed in much of society. Lots of sexual people still feel pressured to be more sexual than they actually are. These are grievances that we can bond over, and this is the overlap I'm referring to

No one was denying that overlap didn't exist in the first place when it comes to aspects outside of how sexual orientation is defined. Hence why so many sexuals actually enjoy interacting with the asexual community, due to those things we all have in common regardless of sexuality.

 

Those things are nothing to do with ones actual sexuality necessarily, but with the situations one finds oneself in. Just like heterosexual and homosexual people have plenty in common, but the one fundamental difference is who they desire sex with. Just like with aces. There are overlaps we can all understand and agree on, the only difference is who we have an innate desire to connect sexually with.

 

1 hour ago, GiftedWithSingleness said:

We can bond over our similarities while simultaneously recognizing our differences. And my last comment was simply me asking the question of how best to do that.

We do that really well here on AVEN.

 

This discussion is about issues surrounding the idea of an ace spectrum. The idea of a spectrum never had anything to do with whether or not one feels pressure to have sex etc, but the (mistaken) idea that some aces can desire partnered sex for pleasure sometimes,  some aces can actively seek sexual relationships out of an innate desire to have such relationships, some aces can desire sex with anyone with no preference as to appearance, some aces can only desire sex when in love etc. The disagreement is that due to the 'desiring sex' factor, those things aren't part of some 'ace spectrum' but are aspects of average sexuality that is often denied within the ace community in favour of 'total inclusivity of the ace label'.

[Gifted With Singleness]

21 minutes ago, Not Pan Ficto. said:

The idea of a spectrum never had anything to do with whether or not one feels pressure to have sex etc,

Is that true, though? I distinctly remember seeing comments saying things like, "I identify as asexual because I don't understand [insert hypersexual thing here]". Unless I'm mistaken, people like that are taking experiences they have in common with asexual people as the justification for them being asexual, rather than any actual definition.

 

A lot of people (especially teenagers) tend to be very cliquish. So, if you find yourself relating more to your ace friends than to your sexual friends, that can cause a strong feeling of, "I'm one of them." I really think that this is what's causing people to misuse the label "asexual". The inaccurate definitions are just a symptom of the problem, rather than a cause of it.

 

I know and you know that sexual people are more than welcome to hang out here. I'm just not sure that the "spectrum" people get that. People get angry at you suggesting that they're not ace because they think you're telling them to GTFO. And if that's the case, then we might need to work to correct that misconception.

 

Then again, maybe those people are just teenagers being teenagers, and there's not really anything we can do about that.

[Guest]

5 hours ago, GiftedWithSingleness said:

I really think that this is what's causing people to misuse the label "asexual"

It literally just comes down to a community-wide misunderstanding of how sexual people feel. Many in the ace community insist sexual people are all exactly this one specific way and if you're not like that, you're ace or at least 'on the spectrum'. But sexual people come in all kinds of shapes and sizes, with the only similarity among them all being that to some extent or another they have an innate desire to connect sexually with others that aces don't have. That's the only difference that matters.

 

5 hours ago, GiftedWithSingleness said:

People get angry at you suggesting that they're not ace because they think you're telling them to GTFO.

We aren't even allowed to say people aren't ace anymore but they still get angry, lol. I think mostly just because they feel entitled to be in a minority and if you dare suggest that what they describe sounds like something many sexual people experience (ie only wanting sex with people you respect) they think you're trying to snatch their minority card. So they twist that into "you're a bigot trying to gatekeep this community and deny my existence!!!" in order to make you look like the bad guy, and so they don't have to actually truly consider the  validity of what you said. It's sooooo frustrating Y_Y

 

If they actually knew how painful, alienating, and difficult it can be to be asexual though, they wouldn't be trying to fight to have the label and warp its meaning in the process.  These people often have very happy, fulfilling sex lives and fit in perfectly in the sexual world (the vast majority of the ones that I have met still love and desire sex) but feel that they are somehow different than all those 'brain-dead horny sexuals who will screw anything'. Sigh. Then they come to the ace community, and others here encourage them by saying "oh yes yes you're definitely on the ace spectrum!!" which only perpetuates the confusion right throughout the community.

 

My example sounds quite extreme and I'm not referring to those fringe  cases that are really very difficult to categorise, but the blatantly sexual people who are a bit different than their peers (or at least, different from hormone-addled teenage boys, and porn stars??) so decide they absolutely MUST be ace at all costs. Those are, for the most part, the kinds of people who take advantage of the idea of an 'ace spectrum' and I don't think that does anything but harm actual asexuality visibility and education.

 

I think we are agreeing by the way, we just seem to have got our wires crossed somewhere?

 

(Ps weirdly they genuinely love a LOT of sex.. but assume they are on the ace spectrum because "they have no preference as to whom they have sex with" met plenty of those in my time here lol - sigh).

[ashpenaz]

Here's my definition: An asexual is someone who doesn't want to have sex.

 

This excludes celibates who choose not to have sex for whatever reason. And it doesn't matter why you don't want to have sex. You might have a low libido. You might have a high libido. You might have sexual fantasies. You might never think about it. But the defining characteristic of what I call asexual is this: you don't want to have sex.

 

You just don't.

[Alejandrogynous]

6 hours ago, Not Pan Ficto. said:

It literally just comes down to a community-wide misunderstanding of how sexual people feel. Many in the ace community insist sexual people are all exactly this one specific way and if you're not like that, you're ace or at least 'on the spectrum'. But sexual people come in all kinds of shapes and sizes, with the only similarity among them all being that to some extent or another they have an innate desire to connect sexually with others that aces don't have. That's the only difference that matters.

Not to speak for someone else but I think that was the point @GiftedWithSingleness was trying to make, that people are equating experiences asexual people might have with being asexual, instead of understanding that sexuality is massively varied and sexual people can also have many of those same experiences. Like being anxious about sex, this is a common asexual experience but it's also a common sexual one, but if someone is viewing it from the exaggerated perspective of the hypersexual media, they might think it makes them some level of asexual. Asexuality and sexuality have a clear cut difference (asexuals lack the innate ability to desire partnered sex, it is a clear 'yes or no' distinction), but the experiences of asexuals and sexuals can overlap greatly. I always say a big part of our problem is the lack of proper sexual education in many places, which leads people (young people especially) to misunderstand what "normal" sexuality is, and since asexuality is defined by being what "normal" sexuality isn't, it causes a whole mess of confusion.

 

And AVEN's refusal to take a firm stance on education only makes the problem worse but that's a horse long dead, unfortunately.

[Gifted With Singleness]

 @Alejandrogynous Yep, you pretty much hit the nail on the head.

 

@Not Pan Ficto., I think where our wires are getting crossed is that your comments keep giving the impression that these misconceptions you're referring to somehow originated from the asexual community. (If that's not what you were trying to say, I apologize for misunderstanding.) But I don't think that's true. I think these misconceptions are simply the result of us living in a hypersexual culture. Highly impressionable teenagers are looking at porn, hearing extremely perverted sexual jokes from their peers, seeing highly sexualized advertisements, and reading magazines promoting hypersexuality and hookups, and they're concluding from it all that this is somehow a representative sample of "average" human sexuality. The only voices they see pushing back against this are all from the asexual community. Thus, they come to places like AVEN seeking refuge from the expectation they feel to be hypersexual when they're not, and the unfortunate side effect of this is that they bring their misconceptions here. Their parents didn't correct their misconceptions, their teachers didn't correct their misconceptions, their peers didn't correct their misconceptions, the internet didn't correct their misconceptions, and even their pastors (if they even go to church) didn't correct their misconceptions. So now we're forced to clean up the mess. We can complain about this all we want, but that's the world we live in. So, what do we do about it? I don't know. But if there is something we can do (more than what we're already doing, that is), I would like to know what it is.

[Snao Cone]

I think better and more realistic sexual education at a younger age will benefit all orientations, including asexuality, for reasons like those being discussed. The misconceptions come from all angles. Yes, for kids who get exposed to sex through porn, it's exaggerated and unrealistic. But also, for people who are only informed of cishet PIV in the missionary position, they are getting the short end of the stick on exposure to the diversity of human sexuality. They might think they're asexual just because they're not into that, without realizing that there are other things they might be into that are sexual, and so they won't have some of the misconceptions we see here about what counts as "sex" and thus what is "sexual". We need to focus on promoting understanding of the widely diverse range of human sexuality before we tell people about an "asexual spectrum" as if it's richer than the sexual spectrum. It baffles me how some people can have the idea in their head that the sexual population are all horndogs with one-track minds, yet they can say that asexuality is a diverse spectrum. I don't know how much overlap there is between people with that attitudes, but they're both misconceptions that pop up frequently, so I wouldn't be surprised if some folks have that bias and could use some help in better understanding broader sexuality and human diversity as a whole.

[Diana DeLuna]

12 hours ago, Not Pan Ficto. said:

If they actually knew how painful, alienating, and difficult it can be to be asexual though, they wouldn't be trying to fight to have the label and warp its meaning in the process.  These people often have very happy, fulfilling sex lives and fit in perfectly in the sexual world (the vast majority of the ones that I have met still love and desire sex) but feel that they are somehow different than all those 'brain-dead horny sexuals who will screw anything'. Sigh. Then they come to the ace community, and others here encourage them by saying "oh yes yes you're definitely on the ace spectrum!!" which only perpetuates the confusion right throughout the community.

 

My example sounds quite extreme and I'm not referring to those fringe  cases that are really very difficult to categorise, but the blatantly sexual people who are a bit different than their peers (or at least, different from hormone-addled teenage boys, and porn stars??) so decide they absolutely MUST be ace at all costs. Those are, for the most part, the kinds of people who take advantage of the idea of an 'ace spectrum' and I don't think that does anything but harm actual asexuality visibility and education.

In the '90s, I read a study with insight into how often and how much sex real people are having. And the conclusions were: a lot less than others might think. Yet study participants still indicated they believed that others in their social circles were having more frequent and lively sex than they were. A significant portion of the participants believed they weren't living up to some Kama Sutra, barely-obtainable sexual ideal (read: teenagers and porn stars).

 

I've forgotten the details of that old protocol, though there must be scores of similar studies released into the wild by now. My takeaway was one of relief at the time: "Thank the universe I don't have to worry about all the sex I'm supposed to be having when don't want sex at all." (Along with my default-het delusion, "So, when I meet 'the right guy' I won't have to submit to sex so often, because normal people don't fuck every single day.")  

 

Is it possible a disconnect takes place that leads normal, everyday allos with normal everyday attractions & libidos to believe they're just not frisky enough to keep up? Does the ridiculous, fuck-all-the-time messages from the media/culture at large lead people otherwise in the thick part of the allo bell curve to start questioning themselves and their identities? Now that more identities are out there to...um, "pick from" (I know I know, but hey, I'd "pick" another orientation myself if that were possible), perhaps more allo people, feeling inadequate, are deciding to identify on the a-spec as demi- or gray.

 

@Not Pan Ficto., @GiftedWithSingleness, @Snao Cone, and @Alejandrogynous, thanks for this engrossing discussion. So many smart, naunced thoughts. I'm hoping some of this is helpful, or at least relevant, to the OP's concerns.

[will123]

7 hours ago, ashpenaz said:

Here's my definition: An asexual is someone who doesn't want to have sex.

 

This excludes celibates who choose not to have sex for whatever reason. And it doesn't matter why you don't want to have sex. You might have a low libido. You might have a high libido. You might have sexual fantasies. You might never think about it. But the defining characteristic of what I call asexual is this: you don't want to have sex.

 

You just don't.

Consciously making this decision or not?

 

I'm not sexually attracted to females (or males) and I haven't tried to have ANY sexual contact in spite of this, either before or after I found out about asexuality. I never said to myself, "I don't want to have sex". I thought I was straight, but sex never happened.

[Guest]

7 hours ago, GiftedWithSingleness said:

your comments keep giving the impression that these misconceptions you're referring to somehow originated from the asexual community. (If that's not what you were trying to say, I apologize for misunderstanding.) But I don't think that's true

Where they originate doesn't matter. What matters is that they are often encouraged within the ace community, to the extent that many people in control of writing and enforcing official definitions actively support the idea of an ace spectrum which includes almost any variation of non-hypersexual person. Though even aces can be hypersexual to the extent of desiring sex with 10+ different people a day according to more extreme supporters of the 'ace spectrum', lol.

 

 That's the issue. Not where the ideas originate but the fact that within much of the ace community (it's MUCH worse on Twitter, Facebook, Tumblr, and Fetlife) these misconceptions are enforced and actively encouraged under the idea of an ace spectrum. The idea of an ace spectrum leaves no room for education as to what asexuality is OR what kind of struggles actual sexual people face when it comes to their own sexuality (which are things anyone of any sexuality can experience). The idea of an ace spectrum boxes all sexual people into one very specific category and if your experience is any different than that one experience, then you're some kind of ace!! (Meaning like, 60% of the population is asexual, hah).

 

7 hours ago, GiftedWithSingleness said:

We can complain about this all we want, but that's the world we live in. So, what do we do about it? I don't know. But if there is something we can do (more than what we're already doing, that is), I would like to know what it is.

The answer is for better education within the ace community as to what falls within the bounds of 'average, everyday sexuality'. Many of us have been begging for that for years and the General FAQ has finally been updated to more accurately reflect sexuality though there is still a lot of work to be done. Then there are all the other ace communities outside of AVEN though and they are MUCH more extreme when it comes to pushing the idea of a totally inclusive asexual spectrum.

 

Obviously better sex education for all orientations would be ideal, but right now as asexuals are an extreme minority (I mean, even within the ace community people who don't desire sexual intimacy seem like a minority, ahem), my fight is more for them.

 

That's why I push so hard for accurate representation of average sexuality within this community (and have done for years). Not for the sexuals, but for the aces who are pushed into an even further minority within their own community by the false idea that "asexuals can love and desire sex just as much as sexuals do".

 

That idea is harmful to asexuals, because next time an ace person says to a potential date "I'm asexual" the potential date may say "oh I've heard of that and I understand, don't worry"

while thinking asexual means 'aces love sex but don't care about appearance'. Then that person may become angry or feel lied to when the ace clarifies "no it means I don't desire sexual intimacy with anyone!" :c I have been in the horrible position of people being angry when you don't want sex with them, and I hate the idea of aces being pushed into that EVEN THOUGH they were open about being ace, due to the false idea that "asexuals love sex too" .. 

 

it's just so bloody harmful and I wish the 'powers that be' (ie David Jay et al) would take the risks more seriously. Yet I'm seeing the 'sex loving aces' idea pushed more and more within the media as a direct result of this 'ace spectrum' idea and honestly, yeah..  it's just so concerning to me.

 

Aces shouldn't have to maybe come up with an entirely new label just to be able to distance themselves from sex-loving aces, but it's honestly looking like that may be what needs to happen if this continues 😕 and that would just be such a huge step back for the entire community when it comes to visibility and education.

 

Ps Sorry this is really long and I typed it all on my phone, hopefully there aren't too many typos!

[Guest]

 

8 hours ago, Alejandrogynous said:

Not to speak for someone else but I think that was the point @GiftedWithSingleness was trying to make, that people are equating experiences asexual people might have with being asexual, instead of understanding that sexuality is massively varied and sexual people can also have many of those same experiences. Like being anxious about sex, this is a common asexual experience but it's also a common sexual one, but if someone is viewing it from the exaggerated perspective of the hypersexual media, they might think it makes them some level of asexual. Asexuality and sexuality have a clear cut difference (asexuals lack the innate ability to desire partnered sex, it is a clear 'yes or no' distinction), but the experiences of asexuals and sexuals can overlap greatly. I always say a big part of our problem is the lack of proper sexual education in many places, which leads people (young people especially) to misunderstand what "normal" sexuality is, and since asexuality is defined by being what "normal" sexuality isn't, it causes a whole mess of confusion.

Yes where we got our wires crossed I think was because @GiftedWithSingleness was referring to experiences as a whole causing confusion (like how some people identify as ace based solely on experiences such as feeling anxious about sex or not wanting it as much as their friend or whatever - which are all common things for sexuals). Whereas I assumed they meant sexuals can experience what asexuals innately experience when it comes to what actually defines their orientation (ie a sexual person can have no desire for partnered sex, EVER, and still be sexual). That's why I was like "er no, that's literally the thing that makes aces different from sexuals, the fact that aces have a perpetual lack of an innate desire to connect sexually with others, whereas sexuals do have that desire even if it's rare, or not very strong, or they don't act on it!".

 

I'm not sure how I assumed that as the comment was on the previous page and I'm on mobile so if I go back I risk losing everything I've typed, but yeah that's what happened, I think??

 

I also think we have moved beyond that specific thing now though, and are instead discussing what actually causes these issues in the first place. Though if I'm 100% honest my brain is a bit fried right now so I could just be speaking gibberish for all I know at this point

 

[Guest]

12 minutes ago, Not Pan Ficto. said:

I'm not sure how I assumed that as the comment was on the previous page and I'm on mobile so if I go back I risk losing everything I've typed, but yeah that's what happened, I think??

@Alejandrogynous wait wait wait it was on this page. Okay so Singleness said: 

 

"I wonder, do you think there might be more of an overlap in experiences between asexual people and many sexual people than we might be giving credit for?"

 

And my response was that it's only an issue when the definition of asexual is spread too far.

 

If the definition of ace was clarified (instead of left open to interpretation and given a whole spectrum to boot) then there would be less room for confusion over what it means to be ace. People wouldn't think "oh, I do desire sex but only when I respect someone" then read an accurate definition like "an asexual has no innate desire to connect sexually with other people" and think "HECK YEAH I'M ASEXUAL" lol!! 

 

So yeah that's what I was getting at with that response, whereas @GiftedWithSingleness was focussing (I think?) more on the overlap of experiences that many people have regardless of orientation, and the way that overlap can cause confusion when coming to this community. Especially when the idea of an entire ace spectrum (which can include anything at all) is so prevalent, and accurate education about 'average' sexuality and the everyday issues sexual people face with regards to their sexuality is so lacking!!

 

[Gifted With Singleness]

1 hour ago, Not Pan Ficto. said:

Where they originate doesn't matter. What matters is that they are often encouraged within the ace community,

I mean, if you want to debunk a false notion, it's important to understand where it's coming from, is it not? And isn't that basically what this thread's about? About why tons of people are becoming convinced that asexuality is a spectrum, leading to it becoming the dominant viewpoint?

 

By the way, I'm still pretty new to AVEN (and to the concept of asexuality in general), so I'm still pretty ignorant as to just how much these misconceptions get promoted, and just how much damage they can cause. You clearly have a lot more experience in this than I do, so maybe much of what I say just so happens to trigger a memory within you of some particularly nasty debate, and I end up not coming across the way I intend.

 

Also (and this might be another reason why I don't always come across very clearly), I often find that I just don't "get" sex. I simply do not think about things in erotic terms, so there are an awful lot of automatic associations people make with sex that I don't. And when I try to make sense of all the sexual things around me, my brain gets all jumbled. This might very well result in a sort of Dunning-Kruger effect within me, where, because I know so little about sex, I don't realize how much I don't know. And because I've never had sex, I don't realize what having sex would actually entail. So, when I hear people talking about aces having sex like it's no big deal, I don't have the information or life experience to properly debunk it, even to myself. So, if I happen to say something that sounds like I'm erasing asexuality or the corresponding difficulties, just understand that that's me trying to unscramble my brain and make sense of everything.

 

2 hours ago, Not Pan Ficto. said:

Aces shouldn't have to maybe come up with an entirely new label just to be able to distance themselves from sex-loving aces, but it's honestly looking like that may be what needs to happen if this continues

I have seen the word "apothisexual" floating around. I'm pretty sure it's just meant to mean "sex-repulsed asexual", but I think I saw it defined somewhere as "not experiencing sexual feelings in any way, shape, or form", which would seem to include the sex-indifferent aces as well. But, like, fuck you, I'm not calling myself "apothisexual". That word is way too obscure. Maybe the new label should be nonsexual? But no, I'm pretty sure that label would get corrupted as well. "Usually I don't feel sexual, but sometimes I do. I must be on the nonsexual spectrum!" And that spectrum's going to be different from the asexual spectrum for some stupid reason, despite both of them including sexual people. Then we'll call ourselves I-don't-want-to-have-sex-uals, and the same thing will happen once again.

[Diana DeLuna]

9 hours ago, will123 said:

Consciously making this decision or not?

 

I'm not sexually attracted to females (or males) and I haven't tried to have ANY sexual contact in spite of this, either before or after I found out about asexuality. I never said to myself, "I don't want to have sex". I thought I was straight, but sex never happened.

Me too. It was both conscious and unconscious: 

Consciously I was asexual and knew I didn't want to have anything to do with sex. I avoided all relationships too, because I assumed by default they would include sex.

Unconsciously I was refusing to give up the idea that I was merely a het-in-waiting. At 20. At 35. At 40. And at age 48, which is when the delusion boiled away and I fell into a black hole of self-blame.

 

For me, there is no spectrum. I didn't have to "try on" this identity. I was already wearing it the whole time. And at age 49 when I found out asexuality is a valid queer identity, I finally embraced it on all levels of conciousness.

 

(Don't talk to me about being aro, though. I don't like not being able to fall in love with something other than ideas. The romantic spectrum is where I truly pine to be.🥺)