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How Did "Asexuality Is a Spectrum" become Dominant?


Skipper Valvoline

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Gifted With Singleness
3 hours ago, PanFicto. said:

Yep that's why every ace community outside of AVEN pretty much sucks sadly. Because they're full of people who don't understand regular sexuality, and they're all stuck in an echo chamber together where they reinforce each other's incorrect views.

To be fair, I do think most people on the asexuality subreddit knew what they were talking about. And the main mod for that sub made a wiki explaining asexuality, where sexual attraction was defined as "an urge to have sex with specific people in real life". I'm not sure that's the ideal way to define it, but it made sense to me. But yeah, there were still a lot of crazies there. I think the misconception that annoyed me the most was that "allosexual" people get turned on by sexualized advertisements. The thing is, even after the mod (and a sexual person visiting the sub) made it clear that, no, most people don't jack off to Hardee's commercials, people STILL made tons of posts and memes insisting that those ads are basically porn.

 

3 hours ago, PanFicto. said:

But remember regardless of how people word it, there is a huge difference between having sex and actively desiring sex for your own sexual and/or emotional pleasure (as this seems to be an issue you were having?).

Yeah, I was having a bit of an issue with that. I think that was because of people (primarily on Reddit) saying that you can like/enjoy sex without experiencing sexual attraction. The thing is, I'm still not sure if they meant they enjoy it but don't desire it, or if they actually do desire it. They never seemed to use that word. They did seem to act like having sex wasn't that big of a deal to them, though, which led me to believe that there was a small but nonzero population of asexuals who are perfectly willing to have sex and don't really have an issue with it despite not wanting it. That's the "always-sex-favorable asexual" misconception I mentioned earlier. Looking back, I think those people were either defining sexual attraction based on looks, confusing responsive desire with sex-favorability, or still in the beginning of a relationship and hadn't gotten sick of sex yet.

 

That might actually be one way in which Reddit is worse than Tumblr. At least people on Tumblr are more overt about their bullshit ideas. (I think. I don't have a Tumblr.) The confusion seems to be a lot harder to spot on Reddit for some reason, at least for someone new to the concept of asexuality.

 

3 hours ago, PanFicto. said:

You're much better just hanging out on AVEN though because the entire membership these days (well many of them) is pretty fiercely in favour of defining asexuality (and sexuality) accurately.

That's actually the main reason I'm here. I heard from somewhere that AVEN tends to be more reasonable about this stuff, and I was not disappointed, so I stayed.

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Janus the Fox
10 hours ago, Alejandrogynous said:

Am I the only one who actually enjoyed this thread?  Even the "arguments" felt like I was talking with another person who was open to communication, unlike half the other debates that take place around here. I actually found this one quite refreshing.

It’s a reason it’s kept open , this is an important topic as long it stays civil like it is :)

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9 hours ago, GiftedWithSingleness said:

sexual attraction was defined as "an urge to have sex with specific people in real life".

🤨

 

Imagine all the people who would say they don't experience "urges" because their attraction isn't immediate or impulsive, but rather builds up over the course of an evening. 

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Gifted With Singleness
8 hours ago, Snao Cone (me) said:

Imagine all the people who would say they don't experience "urges" because their attraction isn't immediate or impulsive, but rather builds up over the course of an evening.

Yeah, "urge" seemed like a bit of a strong word to me, too. But I'm pretty sure "urge" was basically just meant to refer to innate desire. The wiki tried to make it very clear that sexual attraction isn't just arousal. Sexual attraction is an actual feeling that actually pushes you to actually want to actually have actual sex with an actual person in actual real life. I think the connotation of intense spontaneous desire was unintentional, but I'm sure a lot of people took it that way anyway.

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Janus the Fox
40 minutes ago, GiftedWithSingleness said:

Yeah, "urge" seemed like a bit of a strong word to me, too. But I'm pretty sure "urge" was basically just meant to refer to innate desire.

Urge is a heavy word yeah, though a weaker "urge" is more a "nudge" 'yeah I feel things as my feelings nudge me forward into things but they are certainly not urges' 

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Gifted With Singleness

I just had another light bulb moment, and it relates to something I said in an earlier comment:

 

On 5/16/2020 at 9:38 PM, GiftedWithSingleness said:

Yeah, I was having a bit of an issue with that. I think that was because of people (primarily on Reddit) saying that you can like/enjoy sex without experiencing sexual attraction. The thing is, I'm still not sure if they meant they enjoy it but don't desire it, or if they actually do desire it. They never seemed to use that word. They did seem to act like having sex wasn't that big of a deal to them, though, which led me to believe that there was a small but nonzero population of asexuals who are perfectly willing to have sex and don't really have an issue with it despite not wanting it.

Do you think people are just hijacking (or missing the context of) the word "enjoy"? I've seen it clarified, even in this thread, that you can enjoy sex (to some capacity) without desiring it. And I've seen people on Reddit saying, "you can enjoy sex without experiencing sexual attraction". At face value, those statements mean the same thing. But context is everything.

 

Let's be real here, the word "enjoy" has very strong connotations of desire. "I enjoy reading, I enjoy nice juicy steaks, I enjoy going to the beach, I enjoy puppies, I enjoy traveling, and I enjoy sex." The word "desire" is never used, but you can probably guess that this person still has a desire for all these things. Are we just not doing a good enough job of explaining what "asexuals enjoying sex" is actually like? Because that would explain a lot.

 

I have seen countless examples of people on Reddit essentially bragging that asexuals can enjoy sex. "LOL wait till all the aphobes learn that some asexuals actually enjoy sex! I bet their tiny brains will explode, because we're so smart and they're so dumb, and asexuality is such a complex and beautiful spectrum hahaha!" I never know how to respond to those people. Sure, it's technically true that some asexuals can get some amount of enjoyment out of sex, but it's really not something to brag about. Why would you brag about that?

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34 minutes ago, GiftedWithSingleness said:

Let's be real here, the word "enjoy" has very strong connotations of desire.

This isn’t necessarily true.  “Desire” implies not just enjoyment, but also seeking out, hoping for, etc.

 

If I desire a nice, juicy steak, I’m in the mood for one.  The idea of one may make me hungry, or make me wish I had one on my plate.  My desire might propel me to the store to buy one, or to a restaurant (in non-pandemic times) to have one.

 

Enjoying a nice, juicy steak means I have one on my plate now.  I’ve taken at least a bite and eating it is turning out to be pleasurable.  I may or may not have wanted steak, but it’s here and it’s good in the moment.

 

Same goes for puppies.  If I desire a puppy, or even desire playing with someone else’s puppy, I’m wishing I had a puppy available for befriending.  I may go visit someone with a puppy, or go sit at the the park and hope someone walks by with a puppy.  I may even get my own puppy.

 

On the other hand, I may not give puppies a second thought.  I could even actively dislike puppies as a collective unit.  A friend of mine might stop by with her puppy and I could still have a nice (enjoyable) time that day with that puppy.


Someone mentioned it upthread with regards to movies.  If someone asks him to go, and he does go, he may enjoy a given movie.  However, he has no general interest in movies; he would not choose to go if no one else suggests it.  He does not desire movies.  He did not even desire the movie he went to see, but he enjoyed it while he was there.

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Gifted With Singleness

You do realize what the word "connotation" means, right? Unlike a denotation, which is just the literal meaning, a connotation has more to do with how something comes across. Sure, the word "enjoy" doesn't literally mean you desire that thing, but it is often used in that context.

 

This is what I asked in my previous comment. Are people looking at the word "enjoy" and incorrectly inferring (based on connotations they associate with the word "enjoy") that the person desires sex?

 

Or alternatively, are people incorrectly assuming that asexuals who have sex find it easy, since they "enjoy" it?

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I do, thanks.  My point was that I don’t think “enjoy” universally connotes “desire.”  Sure, there are people who struggle to understand why people who can enjoy sex don’t also desire it, but that’s true for most anything that isn’t the majority option.

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27 minutes ago, GiftedWithSingleness said:

Are people looking at the word "enjoy" and incorrectly inferring (based on connotations they associate with the word "enjoy") that the person desires sex?

I’m sure this happens.

 

28 minutes ago, GiftedWithSingleness said:

are people incorrectly assuming that asexuals who have sex find it easy, since they "enjoy" it?

This likely happens as well.

 

Too, sex is “easier” for some asexuals than others, so they may know (of) someone it’s easy enough for and be generalizing from there.

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Alejandrogynous

That's why I think it's more accurate to say some asexuals are "capable of enjoying" sex, which better conveys the idea that it's not their natural or most common reaction but that they are still able to get some enjoyment out of it, sometimes, in ideal circumstances.

 

I also feel like a number of the people who "brag" about asexuals enjoying sex are doing it kind of the same way in which some of us "brag" about not hating sex, not being repulsed, or naive, or unable to understand sexual humor/references, etc. As in, not so much bragging as just pushing back against the idea that all asexuals are sex-hating prudes or poor naive babies that can't even say the word "sex" out loud. "I'm asexual and I've got the dirtiest mind in my friends group, so HA." From there, though, I've no doubt that that many sex-loving asexuals have taken that as part of their narrative that they can enjoy/desire/love sex and still be ace.

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Gifted With Singleness
2 hours ago, Alejandrogynous said:

That's why I think it's more accurate to say some asexuals are "capable of enjoying" sex, which better conveys the idea that it's not their natural or most common reaction but that they are still able to get some enjoyment out of it, sometimes, in ideal circumstances.

 

Yeah, I suppose there's an upper limit on how much you can enjoy something before you get into "desire" territory. Isn't that basically how the human brain works? You have an amazing experience, and your brain floods with dopamine, encouraging you to do it again. So even if you didn't want it before, now you do.

 

But if you get too caught up in definitions and semantics and forget the real world implications, you might think something like, "Desire and enjoyment are two different things, so you can experience zero desire but maximal enjoyment," and not think about what that actually means.

 

What "zero desire but maximal enjoyment" actually means would be something like this:

 

"OH MY GOD, I JUST HAD SEX, AND IT WAS THE MOST AMAZING EXPERIENCE I'VE EVER HAD IN MY ENTIRE LIFE! I don't really want to have sex again, though. I'm not even tempted. It's just not my cup of tea."

 

Yeah, when you actually spell it out like that, it really does seem extremely bizarre and nonsensical.

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Reality for sex-favorable

aces seems to be more like “I had sex, and it was fine.  Good, even.  But I don’t really care if I have it again or not and may not even think about it unless someone else brings it up.”

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Quote

Yeah, I suppose there's an upper limit on how much you can enjoy something before you get into "desire" territory. Isn't that basically how the human brain works? You have an amazing experience, and your brain floods with dopamine, encouraging you to do it again. So even if you didn't want it before, now you do.

It checks out.  While I've found I can experience/enjoy sexual things, I can very clearly tell it's on a far lower key than it is with most people.  I still think it's quite highly overrated and I still don't understand why/how it's something that people form and break their relationships over.

 

Have had many a talk with the spouse over this exact subject, and they feel as I do.

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On 4/27/2020 at 5:17 PM, GiftedWithSingleness said:

I remember seeing a thread a little while ago where someone was addressing misconceptions they've heard about asexuality. A bunch of regulars showed up and interpreted "misconceptions" as referring to the idea that asexuality isn't a spectrum. They then tried to make it crystal clear that asexuality is indeed not a spectrum and that it's not a misconception at all. But the "misconceptions" OP was actually talking about were that all asexuals are sex-repulsed and have no libido. And OP seemed really confused as to why people were lashing out so much

(This is probably derailment but...) I’m fairly certain this was me...

Ignore below, I’m venting.

Spoiler

So the reason why I was ***** screamed at was because of this spectrum I wasn’t even really aware of before I got on AVEN. I was afraid of posting again for the longest time and you’re telling me that I unwittingly stepped on a landmine That I Did Not Know About!!!!!

I went from being yelled at on one corner of the internet to being yelled at again in another part of the internet where I thought people would understand.

And it’s all because of that stupid spectrum. I have decided that I hate it.


I’m tired.

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Gifted With Singleness
25 minutes ago, Aris said:

(This is probably derailment but...) I’m fairly certain this was me...

 

Yeah, it was your thread. Here it is in case others want to see it:

 

 

This is what I was trying to address in that comment way back on page 6. For some reason, a lot of the regulars on this site seem to automatically assume that every single newbie on this site is very familiar with all the bullshit that comes from Tumblr, whether or not they believe it. And because of that, we're all expected to walk on eggshells and be extremely careful with our language so that people don't get the wrong idea. Everyone's a Tumblrina until proven otherwise.

 

Believe it or not, there are still people, in the year 2020, who insist that all asexuals are sex-repulsed and have no libido. It might not be nearly as common as the whole "spectrum" idea, but it does still exist. It's not a boogeyman. Maybe you don't encounter it much on Tumblr, but Tumblr is not a representative sample of the general population. Not by a long shot.

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Diana DeLuna

 @Aris, I didnt know about a spectrum till I came here, either. Now that I know my ex-friend found out about the spectrum before I did, and used loosey-goosey interpretations of it to gaslight and reject me, I hate it too.

 

I feel accepting of individuals who identify demi- or grey-, because those I've met here on AVEN have more commonality with me than not, but A-spec as a concept...? No. 😕

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1 minute ago, Diana DeLuna said:

 

 @Aris, I didnt know about a spectrum till I came here, either. Now that I know my ex-friend found out about the spectrum before I did, and used loosey-goosey interpretations of it to gaslight and reject me, I hate it too.

 

I feel accepting of individuals who identify demi- or grey-, because those I've met here on AVEN have more commonality with me than not, but A-spec as a concept...? No. 😕

 

Yeah. The concept is not great but I will probably still use the term aspec because

1) I really only have access to the internet on my phone so typing ace/aro umbrella is difficult (autocorrect is terrible) and

2) to stick it to the people who's keep saying that we stole aspec from the autistic community when there have been hundreds of people on the spectrum who have denied that claim.

 

on the topic of the original question, I’m not sure if this has been brought up in this thread because it is looong, the spectrum talk probably became increasingly popular due to the cross platform social media discourse that continues to claim that gray-as and demis don’t exist/are “special snowflakes”. 
 

The more aphobes (is that used here?) continue to attack people under the umbrella the more spectrum use is popular. Unified front and all that. 
 

The inclusion of sexual identities under the hellsite tumblr spectrum for aces and aros is dangerous and should be eliminated

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Diana DeLuna
On 5/17/2020 at 6:41 AM, Janus DarkFox said:

It’s a reason it’s kept open , this is an important topic as long it stays civil like it is :)

 @Alejandrogynous, this tag is for you, too. I enjoyed this thread more than any other that I've read from start to finish since first coming to post here. Also thanks to @GiftedWithSingleness, @PanFicto., @Anthracite_Impreza, etc. Your words were many, but most of them were not lost--at least on me!

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On 5/23/2020 at 5:04 AM, Aris said:

Yeah. The concept is not great but I will probably still use the term aspec because

1) I really only have access to the internet on my phone so typing ace/aro umbrella is difficult (autocorrect is terrible) and

 

On 5/23/2020 at 5:04 AM, Aris said:

The inclusion of sexual identities under the hellsite tumblr spectrum for aces and aros is dangerous and should be eliminated

You can just say ace, or asexuality. The term asexual/ace includes all asexuals: those who have no innate desire to connect on a sexual level with other people. They may have different kinds of romantic preferences, different aesthetic attractions, some even have kinks and some don't etc, but they all have no desire to connect sexually with others! So that includes asexual aromantics as well.

 

Aromantic as a whole is a separate thing from asexuality though as there are aromantic sexuals, and romantic a-sexuals. So there is no need to combine them under some umbrella-type thing. Asexuality as a term already includes aromantic asexuals! ^_^

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On 5/22/2020 at 1:10 PM, Aris said:

Ignore below, I’m venting.

  Hide contents

So the reason why I was ***** screamed at was because of this spectrum I wasn’t even really aware of before I got on AVEN. I was afraid of posting again for the longest time and you’re telling me that I unwittingly stepped on a landmine That I Did Not Know About!!!!!

I went from being yelled at on one corner of the internet to being yelled at again in another part of the internet where I thought people would understand.

And it’s all because of that stupid spectrum. I have decided that I hate it.


I’m tired.

Omg, haha, I just looked at the thread (Singleness linked it) and I can see why people were upset. It wasn't so much to do with a 'spectrum', it's more that it sounded like you were saying that 'allos' don't understand that some aces can be unhappy without sex which is going to set a whole lot of people off really quickly and has nothing to do with a spectrum on its own (because there are people who don't believe in a spectrum who stil believe aces can love sex!). and it came across like you were accusing people of elitism for making a stand as to what the term asexual actually means.. if that makes sense? But anyway don't worry I won't shout at you!! :P I'm just trying to explain why that can upset a lot of people so quickly, haha, even though I understand your frustration and not having any background as to the politics here definitely doesn't help. :cake:

 

If it helps, AVEN itself (in the General FAQ) defines sexual attraction as: the desire for sexual contact with someone else. That's a nice concise way of describing it!

 

But yeah you're right that behaviour doesn't equal sexual orientation. I have known ace sex workers, and sexual celibate people (like me!). It's about what you desire innately even if that's only sometimes. Obviously we won't say "um you're not asexual" if someone here is like "I adore sex but it's because I just love it when someone else gives me an orgasm, not like those sexual people who lust after people" (we aren't allowed to say "you're not ace") but we will try to explain that loving having a shared orgasm is a, well, a sexual thing. Yes we get called elitist for that sort of thing but the line has to be drawn somewhere so asexuality doesn't lose all meaning, and to protect asexuals from being pushed into sex by people who might say "well I heard other aces love sex so you need to try it with me to see if you love it", if that makes sense? :)

 

(sorry this was off topic, haha. I just read that thread after Singleness linked it and wanted to give my two cents in a calm and collected manner) :P

 

I will reiterate though that saying 'asexual' is absolutely sufficient, you don't need to say 'aspec'. Asexual already covers all kinds of asexuals, including aromantic asexuals. :)

 

Edit: and PS sorry you had such a bad experience posting initially. It can be a bit of a word-war-zone here sometimes! 🍰

 

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Diana DeLuna

I read part of the other thread too (thanks for the link, @GiftedWithSingleness).  @Aris's original rant didn't have anything that would or should be offensive to aces who actually understand what Ace is. Aris was mainly drawing the distinction between sexual attraction that drives a person toward another, and sexual libido which means one's genitals work and can be satisfied in-house with nary (or rarely) a sexual thought about another human. 

 

I'm not regularly on Reddit or Tumblr--I'm too old for that kind of digital attention span--but clearly it's anarchy out there and I'm glad I didn't have vicious, self-righteous randos tearing off the buds of whatever tender identity I was trying to cultivate for myself. I wouldn't have been able to stick up for myself even as well as @Aris did. It would have driven me out of the "community" for another 10 years of hurt and self-erasure.

 

Well, that's AVEN, I guess. Come for the trial-by-beatdown, stay for the cake. 😋

 

Cake-Beach.jpg

 

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16 hours ago, PanFicto. said:

it sounded like you were saying that 'allos' don't understand that some aces can be unhappy without sex which is going to set a whole lot of people off really quickly and has nothing to do with a spectrum on its own (because there are people who don't believe in a spectrum who stil believe aces can love sex!). and it came across like you were accusing people of elitism for making a stand as to what the term asexual actually means.. if that makes sense? But anyway don't worry I won't shout at you!! :P I'm just trying to explain why that can upset a lot of people so quickly, haha, even though I understand your frustration and not having any background as to the politics here definitely doesn't help

Looking back I didn’t phrase my post very well.  I was so angry that an ace positivity post on Instagram (the arguably calmest social media site) had both aces and sexuals harassing and misleading people who were asking if an ace could have a libido or have sex (as a compromise with an s/o) that I took it out on all sexuals. 
I now understand why you would want to keep everyone from identifying as ace. I just didn’t know that that was a problem, I was only familiar with the umbrella crunching and ace erasure on Instagram. 

 

16 hours ago, PanFicto. said:

I will reiterate though that saying 'asexual' is absolutely sufficient, you don't need to say 'aspec'. Asexual already covers all kinds of asexuals, including aromantic asexuals. :)

I will probably use ace when I’m referring to all asexuals. I might use aro/ace communities to replace aspec.

 

@Diana DeLuna and @PanFicto. Thank you for the helpful feedback!

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Diana DeLuna
On 5/16/2020 at 2:17 PM, GlamRocker said:

I think they DID.

 

Anyway, I've given up on asexuality as an identity, as a community, as a word with any meaning. It's over. The crazies won.

I'm still here, Aven can be fun sometimes... but it isn't useful for anything else. And I'm cool with that. I thought at first I had something to lose if I didn't defend this identity's meaning, but now I know there was never anything to be had to begin with.

 

Aaaaw, not yet. I just got here! Or...I just finally found my way here after dancing around and ignoring my asexuality for 30 years.  I hope the cool, knowledgeable people who are still here don't leave!

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  • 7 months later...
jay williams
On 4/17/2020 at 1:18 PM, ashpenaz said:

Here's my definition: An asexual is someone who doesn't want to have sex.

 

This excludes celibates who choose not to have sex for whatever reason. And it doesn't matter why you don't want to have sex. You might have a low libido. You might have a high libido. You might have sexual fantasies. You might never think about it. But the defining characteristic of what I call asexual is this: you don't want to have sex.

 

You just don't.

That definition works perfectly for me. I love it. I have a libido, and I can definitely be attracted to others.  But I have zero desire for PIV sex. I know. I mean, I have had a couple of women come by and spend the night (desirous of sex), and there has been zero arousal by me, especially when it comes to PIV sex!  So there is no chance for that! While we are in the minority, there are significant numbers of us, male and female, who are like that. This is a real contrast with sexuals, who regard screwing as the greatest thrill of their lives! LOL

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