What other precise categories exist under the asexual umbrella?

[Philip027]

Quote

If she considers herself lesbian, she is a lesbian.

Then "lesbian" is a useless term that means/defines nothing.  Congratulations.

 

But hey, keep on drinking that AVEN punch.  I think I'm done here.

[HikaruBG]

1 hour ago, Winter-Cattle said:

Absolutely not, no. If she considers herself lesbian, she is a lesbian. Sexual history, especially non-consensual sexual history, is irrelevant. Not that my opinion should matter to someone's identity?

You are contradicting yourself. You just said that experiences matters.

 

You literally said "isn't the firm label "asexual" a spectrum in terms of real life experiences, anyway?".

No, it's not.

 

Non-consensual sex or not, it is still an expirence that the lesbian in question had. Also, what about virgins who doesn't have sexual experiences and yet, are fully aware of their sexuality/sexual orientation??

 

Why switch your argument now, when it doesn't help your case? You literally were arguing how "it's about our past  experiences that happened to be similar to asexualsc experiences "... but when countered with an examples of very plausible expirences with other peopl, you responding with "Past expirences doesn't matter"???

 

1 hour ago, Winter-Cattle said:

Not unless they identify as grey- or demi- or similarly ace-spec, no. Again, why does my opinion matter to someone else's identity? 

No, you misunderstood my question. My question was: by your logic, are Heterosexuals/Homosexuals a form of asexuals now because they doesn't experience sexual attraction/sexual desire towards the same sex/opposite sex (just like how asexuals doesn't experience that)?

 

 And no, they are not. Nowhere in the framework of Sexuality is it said how many times (1 time, 10 times, 100 times, 1000 times, ect.) do you have to desire sex with the opposite sex/same/both/whatever (and act on it) in your life span, before you taken on the label of heterosexual/homosexual/bisexuals/pansexual. Nobody is keeping track of how many times did you fucked with a certain gender/sex (because you wanted to) or some bullshit like that.

Heterosexuality/Homosexuality/Bisexuality/ect. literally describes with who do you want to have sex with. Nothing more nothing less. 

 

1 hour ago, Winter-Cattle said:

Replace "had" with "interested in", then. Is a woman interested in having sex with a trans woman no longer a lesbian? Is a man interested in having sex with a trans woman no longer straight?

1 hour ago, Philip027 said:

Then "lesbian" is a useless term that means/defines nothing.

I disagree.

This is a question about gender identity, not sexuality.

Heterosexuality/Homosexuality/Bisexuality are not defined with "is sexually attracted to everyone who is gender identifying as their preferred gender" (trans people included).

Lesbian who may be interested in having sex with a trans woman is still a lesbian, but a lesbian who is only ever interested in having sex with "cis" women.

(Ugh, I despise the term "cis" as much as I despise the term "allosexuals".)

 

Spoiler

This is a complicated topic that I have been planning on making a thread on (in the Hot Box, of course, because I figured out that it can get very complicated) because I have seen people accusing heterosexuals, homosexuals and even some bisexuals of transphobia for not wanting to date/ have sex with trans people. It got so bad that some people started calling heterosexuals and homosexuals mentally ill, bias, abused kagain, with the experiences argument), that sexual orientationd are a choice and so much worse. Heck, not even asexuals/aromantic are safe from that - apparently, for these idiots "sexual incompatibility" doesn't exist.

 

Edited April 6, 2020 by HikaruBG
adding link for reference

[Winter-Cattle]

54 minutes ago, CBC said:

If Fred claims to be gay but he repeatedly seeks out and enjoys sex with women as well, and people keep telling him that makes him bisexual, he doesn't get to define homosexuality simply by his declaration of gayness.

What if "Fred" tells you he is exclusively sexually attracted to men, and that his actions don't dictate his sexuality?

 

2 minutes ago, HikaruBG said:

You are contradicting yourself. You just said that experiences matters.

 

You literally said "isn't the firm label "asexual" a spectrum in terms of real life experiences, anyway?"

It was countering the "but I have been invalidated/misrepresented" statements. Why do people feel misrepresented by the grey aces, but not by different aces?

 

2 minutes ago, HikaruBG said:

Also, what about virgins who doesn't have sexual experiences and yet, are fully aware of their sexuality/sexual orientation??

We exist, and we are no more or less (sexuality) than others of (sexuality)?

 

4 minutes ago, HikaruBG said:

You literally were arguing how "it's about our past  experiences that happened to be similar to asexualsc experiences "

Not sure where I said any of that? I'm asexual, but my experiences are very dissimilar to most asexuals. Do you believe I am grey-ace?

 

5 minutes ago, HikaruBG said:

are Heterosexuals/Homosexuals a form of asexuals now because they doesn't experience sexual attraction/sexual desire towards the same sex/opposite sex (just like how asexuals doesn't experience that)?

No.

 

6 minutes ago, HikaruBG said:

And no, they are not. Nowhere in the framework of Sexuality is it said how many times (1 time, 10 times, 100 times, 1000 times, ect.) do you have to desire sex with the opposite sex/same/both/whatever (and act on it) in your life span, before you taken on the label of heterosexual/homosexual/bisexuals/pansexual. Nobody is keeping track of how many times did you fucked with a certain gender/sex (because you wanted to) or some bullshit like that.

Heterosexuality/Homosexuality/Bisexuality/ect. literally describes with who do you want to have sex with. Nothing more nothing less. 

Not sure what your point is here - this is a misconception I have never heard before?

[HikaruBG]

1 hour ago, Winter-Cattle said:

It was countering the "but I have been invalidated/misrepresented" statements.

Um... Yes, I was personally misrepresentated (and even invalidated) by the Asexual Spectrum (Grey-Sexuals, Demisexuals, Cupiosexuals and so on) before because "well, there are other aces who are interested in having sex, so why are you saying that you don't"... even tho when I specifically said to that person that I wasn't interested in sex with anyone or anything at all. I literally said that in the last page.

 

1 hour ago, Winter-Cattle said:

Why do people feel misrepresented by the grey aces, but not by different aces?

What "different aces"? You mean the ones who masturbate, use porn and have sex for reasons that have nothing to do with the sex itself (example.: pleasing their partner, wanting to have kids, money, ect.) and so on? These "different aces" are not misrepresenting us at all. You are the ones who are misinterpreting them and bring them up almost everytime when we have a similar discussion, in an attempt to poke holes in what we were saying for so long.

 

1 hour ago, Winter-Cattle said:

We exist, and we are no more or less (sexuality) than others of (sexuality)?

 

1 hour ago, Winter-Cattle said:

No.

You missed my points there entirely.

 

1 hour ago, Winter-Cattle said:

Not sure where I said any of that? I'm asexual, but my experiences are very dissimilar to most asexuals. Do you believe I am grey-ace?

The whole point of "Asexuals Spectrum" is to have multiple identities that share a somewhat similar experiences to be under "the wing" of Asexuality itself. This is why it was created in the first place - for inclusive purposes because, in the last decade or so, certain people started crying that the definition of Asexuality (which was a lot similar to the "inherent sexual desire" definition) wasn't inclusive enough.

 

Heck, you yourself said it.

 

But now, when some people asked to move away from the "Asexual Spectrum" term because they thought that it causes a lot of issues for everyone involved, the same people (who wanted Asexuality to be more inclusive) started protesting "why are you excluding us" and "why are you gatekeeping Asexuality?!?!".

Coincidence? I think not.

 

Do you know what would have happened is straight people were acting like that towards the LGBT+ community???

 

I'll say it for a 3rd time in this thread now - the only reason why people deamn for the Asexuality to be seen as a spectrum is because thwy are uncomfortable with the idea of Sexuality itself, that they feel uncomfortable that they are even slightly similar want to those "disgusting allosexuals" and so on.

 

1 hour ago, Winter-Cattle said:

Not sure what your point is here - this is a misconception I have never heard before?

Grey-Sexuality is literally defined as "rarely experiencing sexual attraction/sexual desire have sex with others or experiencing sexual attraction/sexual desire under certain circumstances", implying that there is a certain frequency to all of it.

 

Can you, please, explain me what is the "normal frequency" for "fully sexual (or whatever)?

How often does someone has to feel sexual attraction/sexual desire to other people before they are considered to be "fully heterosexual/homosexal/bisexual/ect.". Do you have to want to fuck every single person, who is of your preferred gender in order to be considered "fully sexual"? Do you have to think about wanting vand having sex in every damn minute (even when you are sleeping) through out you life?

[letusdeleteouraccounts]

I want to insert something in; I think people treat the label asexual too loosely but also take the definition of “a person who does not experience sexual attraction” too strictly. I feel like a good amount of people who identify as “grey-ace” and “on the asexual spectrum” are just plain asexual anyways. Grey-sexual means “I sometimes experience sexual attraction” or “I experience sexual attraction when certain circumstances are met.” If you don’t feel like these sayings can apply to your experiences, then you’d just be asexual (or you really have no need for our community labels) 

[Winter-Cattle]

12 minutes ago, HikaruBG said:

"well, there are other aces who are interested in having sex, so why are you saying that you don't"

Replace "interested in having sex" with "willing to have sex", "watch porn/masturbate", and "in relationships" and I've heard it all before in relation to myself. Why is this point somehow suddenly different?

 

12 minutes ago, HikaruBG said:

These "different aces" are not misrepresenting us at all. You are the ones who are misinterpreting them and bring them up almost everytime when we have this discussion, in an attempt to poke holes in what we were saying for so long.

This is my first time participating in this "definition debate" of AVEN. I know they are not "misrepresenting" me - that is my point. They don't "misrepresent" me, even though people don't understand asexuality and apply what is true to them to me, and call me "disordered" for this not being true. Asexuals all being different do not "invalidate" my experience.

 

20 minutes ago, HikaruBG said:

Can you, please, explain me what is the "normal frequency" for "fully sexual (or whatever)?

I'm probably the least person you should ask this. It would be best to ask someone who identifies this way, why they feel this way. I have only read the discussions, but I have been convinced, when people have said they thought they were asexual for many years as adults, to find out a long time later they are grey/demi. 

[HikaruBG]

59 minutes ago, Winter-Cattle said:

This is my first time participating in this "definition debate" of AVEN. I know they are not "misrepresenting" me - that is my point. They don't "misrepresent" me, even though people don't understand asexuality and apply what is true to them to me, and call me "disordered" for this not being true. Asexuals all being different do not "invalidate" my experience.

59 minutes ago, Winter-Cattle said:

Replace "interested in having sex" with "willing to have sex", "watch porn/masturbate", and "in relationships" and I've heard it all before in relation to myself. Why is this point somehow suddenly different?

 

And there you go, misinterpreting those asexuals again.

 

"Having a clear interest, desire or a want to have partnered sexual activity with others" is nowhere close or similar to "willing to have sexual activity" (which clearly implies that the person in question does not have desire to go through the process but would consent to it anyway), "watches porn/mastubates" and "being in a relationship".

 

You are engaging in whataboutism right there.

 

59 minutes ago, Winter-Cattle said:

I'm probably the least person you should ask this. It would be best to ask someone who identifies this way, why they feel this way. I have only read the discussions, but I have been convinced, when people have said they thought they were asexual for many years as adults, to find out a long time later they are grey/demi.

Sure.

Yeah, realizing that you are demi or grey after many years of identifying as an asexual makes sense.

What doesn't make sense is still continuing to call yourself asexual (even after figuting that ou that you are in fact demi or gret) or demanding others to call you asexual simply because you are feeling invalidated or feel more comfortable with the "asexual" label because "it's easier to explain".

You do realize how this ends up becoming a huge problem for asexuals (who are not interested in sex at all and are looking for sexless relationship) when it comes down to relationships, right?

[Winter-Cattle]

42 minutes ago, CBC said:

By what reasoning should anyone not say, "Hey dude, you seem bisexual to me"?

There is nothing wrong at all, I think that is fine to suggest. But if Fred likes to call himself gay, you have no power to stop him from doing so, however "wrong" he may be.

 

27 minutes ago, HikaruBG said:

Having a clear

I don't believe it is "clear" for many on the grey part of the spectrum?

 

17 minutes ago, HikaruBG said:

feel more comfortable with the "asexual" label because "it's easier to explain"

Why should that be discounted? Why should only one portion of the community have the exclusive rights to the term that is most widely known?

 

18 minutes ago, HikaruBG said:

You do realize how this ends up becoming a huge problem for asexuals (who are not interested in sex at all and are looking for sexless relationship) when comes down to relationship, right?

By this thought, don't asexuals who are fine having sex if the partner wants it, cause "huge problems" for asexuals who would absolutely not consent to sex, when it comes down to relationships? One "group" may not care either way if the relationship is "sexless", and the other "group" will only seek completely "sexless" relationships. 

[Guest]

If you want a list of things that fall under the asexual umbrella... it depends who you ask. As you can tell. 

 

Anywhere from hypersexual asexual (yes, I've seen this... the person wanted sex with anyone willing all the time and was into sex way more than any sexual I personally know) to sex repulsed non-libidoist asexual and anything in between. 

 

Essentially... anyone that uses anything besides pan/bi/hetero/homo sexual can be in the asexual umbrella in some circles. I could be, if I wanted to be. Even though I am married and in a fairly average sexual relationship with my wife, where we both experience sexual attraction/desire for one another. But, because I only experience it for my wife, people still count me as under there in some circles. I don't, personally. I just use sexual, I used to ID as ace before my wife. 

 

But, I've honestly even seen sapiosexual (attraction based on intelligence) listed under there in some places. *shrug*

[Winter-Cattle]

16 minutes ago, CBC said:

No, I wasn't suggesting I have the power to stop anyone. That's not the point. But if I claim that I'm a bald, one-armed, cisgendered, 82-year-old African American man, people are not unreasonably going to point out that I appear to be a redheaded, two-armed, 35-year-old white Canadian chick and that my claim is full of shit.

Glad you brought up gender, ethnicity, and location - those are all, to some extent, identity-based. I have been treated as other because neither side of my family is from where I have always lived and my accent does not match the local accents. Does that mean I'm not really "from" here? To some people, it does. But then where am I then from if not here?

[HikaruBG]

39 minutes ago, Winter-Cattle said:

I don't believe it is "clear" for many on the grey part of the spectrum?

Who said that I was talking about Asexual Spectrum?

 

When any person (regardless if they are demisexual, grey-sexual or just a someone who experiences normal sexuality, whatever that supposed to mean) reaches out or clearly expresses their sexual interested in you (be it as a partner or as a casual hookup) in one or another, do you consider that to be not "clear" enough sign of interest, desire or a want???

 

You are acting like Grey-Sexual are idiots who doesn't know what makes them want sex (in regards to kinks and fetishes) or when they want sex and with who... when the several threads (made by grey-sexuals) from the last several months clearly says otherwise... to me, at least.

 

 

39 minutes ago, Winter-Cattle said:

Why should that be discounted? Why should only one portion of the community have the exclusive rights to the term that is most widely known?

Because...

1 hour ago, HikaruBG said:

You do realize how this ends up becoming a huge problem for asexuals (who are not interested in sex at all and are looking for sexless relationship) when it comes down to relationships, right?

What makes you think that hiding such information from an asexual (who is very likely to know and understand what is Demisexuality, Grey-Sexuality and so on is) is a good idea?

Spoiler

I personally wouldn't like it if someone did it to me. I would feel like I have been lied to or worse - my sense of self-worth will go in the negatives because I'm apparently "not good enough" for another asexual as well (which isn't a good idea considering I already have issues with my self-worth when it comes down to relationships).

 

39 minutes ago, Winter-Cattle said:

By this thought, don't asexuals who are fine having sex if the partner wants it, cause "huge problems" for asexuals who would absolutely not consent to sex, when it comes down to relationships? One "group" may not care either way if the relationship is "sexless", and the other "group" will only seek completely "sexless" relationships. 

Oh, please, even if the asexuals who are indifferent to it (the "doean't care" group) will start resenting it and start leaning towards the sex-repulsed end because their tolerance for it start running out because because their partner think that the asexual in question has an infinite tolerance and can ask for sex everytime without being turned down.

This is not unheard of happening.

Do you not take the emotional tool, that asexuals can experience when comes down to people expecting sex from them, into consideration? Or that the asexualsc attitude towards sex can change over time??

[Janus the Fox]

This topic has gone beyond scope of the threads question and it’s is not anywhere closer to getting answered.  I’ll have to lock this pending a review to unlock.

 

Janus DarkFox, Questions about Asexuality, Asexual Musings and Rantings & Open Mic Moderator