Why gender dysphoria is entirely social on it's origins.

[Just Somebody]

22 hours ago, Not Pan Ficto. said:

No. Not in my case.

 

I adore those aspects of other people anyway, it's just for myself, my own parts, that I experience the pain. 

 

Did you know that many medical professionals consider gender dysphoria a mental disorder? Did you know that many mental disorders are actually genetic and can be inherited (they've found actual genes that are more prone to things line schizophrenia and depression etc). So if someone can be born with depression, or a predisposition towards addiction, or schizophrenia, even if those things don't manifest until the person is older, why can't they also be born with gender dysphoria? Seems totally possible to me.

 

Please note, I'm not saying you're wrong about your own experience. Just that applying that experience to everyone else is incorrect at best, and harmful at worst. 

Pan, this is actually my point  of view on gender dysphoria,  it has biopsychological bases, our genetic material or genes play a part on the structural organization or architecture of our brains of which gender dysphoria is predisposed to manifest.

 

 

But, our genes alone don't organize the structural organization or architecture of our brains and so the functioning of our brains and minds that comes from it, experiences of interaction with our surrounding environment, which is also social, also do play a role in how our brains functions as they also are responsible to organize the architecture of our brains.

 

 

On 3/30/2020 at 3:46 AM, Just Somebody said:

 

DISCLAIMER:

 

I'm not excluding the biological bases of the psychological, social, cultural and historical phenomenon called gender, as gender is part of who we are and who we are (our personalities/identities in general) are our behaviors (how we are acting and thinking), which are product of the functioning of our current brain structural organization (architecture)

 

Who we are being (our identities/personalities) is the manifestation of the functioning of our current brain structural organization or architecture, which is shaped by our genes and by our experiences of interaction with the surrounding environment through our lives. With our gender identities it isn't supposed to be any different as they are part of who we are being.

 

 

In the end, you may be born with a brain writing genetically coded predisposed to developing gender dysphoria (just like depression and schizophrenia), but what triggers the manifestation of gender dysphoria  (just like these other mental conditions) are the experiences of interactions with the (social) surrounding environment.

 

 

I said that the origins of all types of gender dysphoria were entirely social but now i guess i used the wrong wording, I think the right term is the "trigger", the trigger of all types of gender dysphoria is entirely psychosocial if we consider the origins to be biopsychological as in genetic predisposition.

 

 

 

The term "trigger" also brings up a new perspective for what I've been experiencing, due to my social isolation, there's been nobody triggering my gender dysphoria and that's why I'm not feeling it lately. 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Just Somebody said:

The term "trigger" also brings up a new perspective for what I've been experiencing, due to my social isolation, there's been nobody triggering my gender dysphoria and that's why I'm not feeling it lately. 

And that's brilliant for you!!

 

But your experience doesn't apply to everyone.

 

Mine (I'm not even trans, but many transpeople experience this) is there regardless of any outside factors and always has been. It's like a constant ache somewhere deep inside that overwhelms me (to the extent I'll literally start crying) if I think too hard about it. If I think about myself. It's nothing to do with other people. It's me. The feeling is like.. horror. Something terrifying that I'm hiding from because it's too scary to think about and when I do think about it, it overwhelms me.

 

My days literally consist of me alone sitting around drawing and cooking and stuff. I'm not interacting with men or women or anyone else (just two young children).

 

Your dysphoria may be triggered entirely by social interactions with other people, and if that's true for you then as I said, that's really good that you can have a break for from it. Many, many transpeople and others suffering with gender dysphoria would LOVE to be able to treat their dysphoria literally that easily, by just avoiding people who 'trigger' them. That's so much cheaper and less dangerous than having to potentially sterilize yourself and go through the dangers of surgery with all the risks involved etc.

 

And that's putting aside the fact that many of the transpeople I know on AVEN are already very isolated introverts. Being isolated, being an introvert, hasn't suddenly released them from the pains of gender dysphoria based on a lot of the comments I'm still seeing.

 

I'm trying to be reasonable here, but you're being very dismissive of everyone else's suffering, and everybody else's experience, in favour of your own experience which now that you've explained further would actually make you an extreme minority among those with gender dysphoria.

 

No one is dismissing the idea that you personslly can ease your symptoms solely by social distancing (I'm assuming you're not watching YT or TV or anything else either as they all show society in full swing) but you are dismissing and denying literally every person who responds to you here.

 

Maybe it's time to just accept that we experience our gender dysphoria differently and for many of us, it has nothing to do with outward social factors, for some it's a mix, and for some (ie you) it's all social.

 

(though I still think you're placing far too much importance on socially dictated gender norms - many cis people these days don't adhere to gender norms at all but that's a different topic)

[Guest Ca$hrina]

Nevermind that.

[Just Somebody]

4 hours ago, Just Somebody said:

Pan, this is actually my point  of view on gender dysphoria,  it has biopsychological bases, our genetic material or genes play a part on the structural organization or architecture of our brains of which gender dysphoria is predisposed to manifest.

 

 

But, our genes alone don't organize the structural organization or architecture of our brains and so the functioning of our brains and minds that comes from it, experiences of interaction with our surrounding environment, which is also social, also do play a role in how our brains functions as they also are responsible to organize the architecture of our brains.

 

 

 

Who we are being (our identities/personalities) is the manifestation of the functioning of our current brain structural organization or architecture, which is shaped by our genes and by our experiences of interaction with the surrounding environment through our lives. With our gender identities it isn't supposed to be any different as they are part of who we are being.

 

 

In the end, you may be born with a brain writing genetically coded predisposed to developing gender dysphoria (just like depression and schizophrenia), but what triggers the manifestation of gender dysphoria  (just like these other mental conditions) are the experiences of interactions with the (social) surrounding environment.

 

 

I said that the origins of all types of gender dysphoria were entirely social but now i guess i used the wrong wording, I think the right term is the "trigger", the trigger of all types of gender dysphoria is entirely psychosocial if we consider the origins to be biopsychological as in genetic predisposition.

 

 

 

The term "trigger" also brings up a new perspective for what I've been experiencing, due to my social isolation, there's been nobody triggering my gender dysphoria and that's why I'm not feeling it lately. 

I also think it's important to point out that saying something is innate is different from saying this something is predisposed. When something is innate you're born with it already manifestating, unlike when something is predisposed because it needs another thing to "trigger" it's manifestation.

 

 

Based on that I still believe that unsocialized children with genetic predisposition to suffer from gender dysphoria don't have gender dysphoria (manifested).

[Just Somebody]

1 minute ago, Ca$hrina said:

People are only born with those mental illnesses if they are born brain damaged. Are you implying people who were born trans are brain damaged?

That's not always the case, people with depression typically have no visible structural or architectural damages on their brains, just the functioning of their brains is unusual as in neurodivergent. 

[Larkaloke]

I definitely agree that social factors exacerbate gender dysphoria no matter what, and that if those are removed things are much easier - I could see it vanishing entirely if one's only form of gender dysphoria is social - but I disagree with your premise that it's purely social no matter what.

 

Certainly for myself (and others in this thread have also stated this), I feel physical gender dysphoria whether or not I'm around people. I can be completely alone and feel it. I have felt it ever since I hit puberty, and maybe a few years before then given how much I dreaded that happening. It's entirely a physical sense of "this shouldn't be there, it's wrong", of my body not matching up to the map in my head, and it's unaffected by social circumstances. I'm actually typically alone when I experience it the worst. Moreover, I never have given much of a damn about what other people at large think of me. Certain things, like hearing the wrong pronouns or honorifics used for me, grate - but mostly, I ignore people I don't know and whatever opinions they may have about me. If this were the source, surely I would not be experiencing gender dysphoria, but here I am. (Also, I'm agender, so there never as any sort of envy or wishing I could be 'like that', just a knowledge of 'not how I should be', and far before I knew that being nonbinary was a thing.)

 

Now, I somewhat agree in that a lot of gender is, in fact, socially constructed: gender roles, assumptions about likes and dislikes, associated colours, etc. aren't even consistent across cultures or within the same culture throughout history. But whatever you want to call the feeling that most people have that their assigned gender and their sexual characteristics are either right or wrong definitely exists (even if I lot of people never even notice that because they do match). It's not just a social construct. To me, that's gender. I still struggle to see the rest of it as anything but a tiresome load of stereotypes, although I'm more willing to accept that there may be more to it than I was; and although social dysphoria does come from 'the rest of it', physical dysphoria - at least for me, and most people I've spoken to - doesn't.

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Just Somebody said:

That's not always the case, people with depression typically have no visible structural or architectural damages on their brains, just the functioning of their brains is unusual as in neurodivergent. 

Yeah that brain damage comment was... extreme, and completely incorrect. Luckily the commenter removed it but.. yeah.

[Just Somebody]

1 hour ago, Remmirath said:

I definitely agree that social factors exacerbate gender dysphoria no matter what, and that if those are removed things are much easier - I could see it vanishing entirely if one's only form of gender dysphoria is social - but I disagree with your premise that it's purely social no matter what.

 

Certainly for myself (and others in this thread have also stated this), I feel physical gender dysphoria whether or not I'm around people. I can be completely alone and feel it. I have felt it ever since I hit puberty, and maybe a few years before then given how much I dreaded that happening. It's entirely a physical sense of "this shouldn't be there, it's wrong", of my body not matching up to the map in my head, and it's unaffected by social circumstances. I'm actually typically alone when I experience it the worst. Moreover, I never have given much of a damn about what other people at large think of me. Certain things, like hearing the wrong pronouns or honorifics used for me, grate - but mostly, I ignore people I don't know and whatever opinions they may have about me. If this were the source, surely I would not be experiencing gender dysphoria, but here I am. (Also, I'm agender, so there never as any sort of envy or wishing I could be 'like that', just a knowledge of 'not how I should be', and far before I knew that being nonbinary was a thing.)

 

Now, I somewhat agree in that a lot of gender is, in fact, socially constructed: gender roles, assumptions about likes and dislikes, associated colours, etc. aren't even consistent across cultures or within the same culture throughout history. But whatever you want to call the feeling that most people have that their assigned gender and their sexual characteristics are either right or wrong definitely exists (even if I lot of people never even notice that because they do match). It's not just a social construct. To me, that's gender. I still struggle to see the rest of it as anything but a tiresome load of stereotypes, although I'm more willing to accept that there may be more to it than I was; and although social dysphoria does come from 'the rest of it', physical dysphoria - at least for me, and most people I've spoken to - doesn't.

I just remembered something one of my social sciences teacher taught me once, no matter where we go, we cannot escape society, we carry society with us, as even when we are totally alone we still carry sociocultural historical mentalities, values, perspectives,  thoughts, beliefs and meanings as our memories from our socialization, and as our memories they also make us who we are being. We can't unlearn these things (well unless you have a neuropsychological condition that erases your memories like alzheimers).

 

 

Even when you're alone you still carry with sociocultural historical mentalities/thoughs, perspectives, beliefs, values and meanings related to gender, and so you still can perceive things like clothing and your body parts as gendered or see the gendered meanings of things, even if you dislike them.

 

 

 

That's why I just realized it's not enough to isolate oneself to ease gender dysphoria, it's necessary to also deconstruct these sociocultural historical mentalities, thoughts, perspectives, beliefs and meanings related to gender we were taught during our socializations that reside inside our head in our memories.

 

 

[Guest]

4 hours ago, Just Somebody said:

Even when you're alone you still carry with sociocultural historical mentalities/thoughs, perspectives, beliefs, values and meanings related to gender, and so you still can perceive things like clothing and your body parts as gendered or see the gendered meanings of things, even if you dislike them.

Random question to get your thoughts on this:

 

Non-human animals recognize gender despite not having 'social constructs' surrounding it.  So if an animal can recognize gender differences while being totally free from all societal gender expectations, doesn't it stand to reason that a person can too, on a biological level? (while also not caring a whit for socially constructed gender norms. I couldn't care less about them and have never fed into them personally). And if a person recognizes gender on a biological level the way non-human animals do, and feels internally that their genitals don't match the gender of their brain, doesn't that mean it's absolutely plausible for someone's dysphoria to be entirely biological and have nothing to do with socially constructed gender norms?

[Just Somebody]

59 minutes ago, Not Pan Ficto. said:

Random question to get your thoughts on this:

 

Non-human animals recognize gender despite not having 'social constructs' surrounding it.  So if an animal can recognize gender differences while being totally free from all societal gender expectations, doesn't it stand to reason that a person can too, on a biological level? (while also not caring a whit for socially constructed gender norms. I couldn't care less about them and have never fed into them personally). And if a person recognizes gender on a biological level the way non-human animals do, and feels internally that their genitals don't match the gender of their brain, doesn't that mean it's absolutely plausible for someone's dysphoria to be entirely biological and have nothing to do with socially constructed gender norms?

Other animals don't have culture, so they have no idea or any conception of gender, I suppose what you're trying to say is that they can recognize sex differences.

 

 

Even if this was the case for us humans (cultural animals), if we had no culture, including no ideas or any conception of anything gender related, we would still have "sex" or body dysphoria (it's very unlikely that social dysphoria would exist in my opinion at least in that scenario) if we could recognize human body differences including biological sex, what would only be possible if human social interactions were present. I say if human social interactions were present because we build our knowledge of ourselves in reference to other humans we can compare and relate to and identify with.

 

 

 

Also I still believe that nobody is born hating their lives, bodies and body parts, we learn to from social interaction experiences, based on that I'm yet to hear about an non-human animal with signs of any kind of self hate (including body dysphoria) towards it's own healthy body parts. Not even intersex non-human animals (who commonly end up sexually rejected by their peers) seem to manifest body self hate (dysphoria) even when they clearly have reasons to, which probably they have if they are aware of their rejection by others because their body differences in the first place.

 

 

Remember the cases of the feral human children unluckily abandoned and who developed in the wilderness isolated from other humans, as far as I know they don't even have any idea, notion or conception of what's humane or an human to begin with as they usually end up being taken care and raised by wild animals as human children (who also happen to need to be taken care a lot more when compared to other animals to survive). They end up like Mowgli, raised by wolves, or as Tarzan, raised by monkeys, despite neither of these popular stories scientifically accurately describe the condition of these so called feral children. Most of them apparently believe they are the same species as the animals who raised them as they try to copy their behaviors looking like them.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Just Somebody said:

Even if this was the case for us humans (cultural animals), if we had no culture, including no ideas or any conception of anything gender related, we would still have "sex" or body dysphoria

That's exactly what we have all been saying  

 

Well, about sex dysphoria anyway. Sex dysphoria and gender dysphoria are the same thing, we don't use different words to describe them.

 

You're focussing more on the social aspects of gender dysphoria, as those are what cause the dysphoria for you, but for many of us we are talking about 'sex dysphoria' which is biological and relates to our sexual characteristics (genitals, and the rest of our body as we age. For me, it has nothing to do with society and everything to do with my own biology)

 

1 hour ago, Just Somebody said:

I suppose what you're trying to say is that they can recognize sex differences.

Yes, and some choose same sex mates and have an actual preference for same-sex intercourse (they have even proved asexuality in animals, I can find the paper if you're interested)

 

But yes transgender people don't say "I have sex dysphoria that's why I'm trans" they have gender dysphoria, which covers everything relating to their gender (especially their sexual characteristics).

 

1 hour ago, Just Somebody said:

I'm yet to hear about an non-human animal with signs of any kind of self hate (including body dysphoria) towards it's own healthy body parts.

Wait, my examples of know cases of animals self-harming don't count? Why not? 

 

1 hour ago, Just Somebody said:

Most of them apparently believe they are the same species as the animals who raised them as they try to copy their behaviors looking like them.

I already answered all this as well (as have others).

 

I told you that even before I knew what a penis was (at like 2-3) I saw our male dog putting his penis into the female dog, and knew I was more like the female dog than the male dog.

 

Any child can recognise those sexual differences if they are around animals. No they don't use the word "gender" to name those differences but they still recognise them.

 

Humans are curious creatures who want to learn, and many children start exploring their genitals from a very young age. This is all just part of natural human biology. 

 

And as far as I know, no one has actually asked feral children what their perception of gender was. However I can almost guarantee that as they aged, they would have tried to mate with the animals that had the opposite set of genitals, as they would probably have seen themselves as part of that same species and would have naturally felt inclined to mate unless they were asexual. 

 

Children are still aware one type of animal has the same genitals as them and one has a different set if they see them mating, as I could recognise at 2-3 years old when seeing the dogs have sex.

 

1 hour ago, Just Somebody said:

Also I still believe that nobody is born hating their lives, bodies and body parts,

You can believe that if you wish, but for many of us here that sadly isn't the case.

 

I have, for example, never been free from that dark pit inside me, it's always been there from my earliest memories. Many transgender people report feeling discomfort with their bodies (and genitals especially) from as early as they can remember.

 

However you already agreed with us that 'sex dysphoria' (which is what we have all been talking about, but it's called gender dysphoria) exists independently from social constructs.

 

The name for that though (medically) is gender dysphoria, which as we have all said can be social, biological, or a mixture of both. 

 

[Gethealien]

My disphoria has got worse being in isolation because I'm not able to distract myself. I get slightly less social disphoria but way more body disphoria. 

I agree that clothes are just material and that gender differences are created up until pubity, the brain and strength difference are made by the unconscious gender bias in giving what they see as a boy or a girl different types of toys from when they are babies. I would also argue if we stopped laybling boys=penius girls=viagina it would help reduce stigma and social disphoria.

I would also argue that body disphoria is far more complicated and those kinda things may help but it wouldn't iradicate it. It's like an itching feeling and it's horrible and I'm doing a rubbish job of suppressing it ahh. 

Ge they/them

[Janus the Fox]

Social constructs are a mystery to me, this comes with the territory with a significant autism spectrum condition.  With discussions with my psych, the need to transition is entirely physically, rather than socially motivated in my case.

[Rynn]

 

9 hours ago, Just Somebody said:

Also I still believe that nobody is born hating their lives, bodies and body parts,

Would you say dysphoria is only hate? I would also include discomfort, disconnect, shame, disgust etc in dysphoria. Dysphoria is a distressing incongruence between internal sense of gender and agab, right? So why only include hate?

 

9 hours ago, Just Somebody said:

if we had no culture, including no ideas or any conception of anything gender related, we would still have "sex" or body dysphoria (it's very unlikely that social dysphoria would exist in my opinion at least in that scenario)

I agree with this. It seems to be in conflict with you earlier posts though. So do you believe that body dysphoria exists independently of culture or don't you?

 

14 hours ago, Just Somebody said:

I just remembered something one of my social sciences teacher taught me once, no matter where we go, we cannot escape society, we carry society with us, as even when we are totally alone we still carry sociocultural historical mentalities, values, perspectives,  thoughts, beliefs and meanings as our memories from our socialization, and as our memories they also make us who we are being. We can't unlearn these things (well unless you have a neuropsychological condition that erases your memories like alzheimers).

I think you've probably heard of Karl Popper's concept of falsifiability within the philosophy of science, right? If your theory can't be falsified, then it's pseudoscience. Theories are supposed to be able to predict things. The theory of the sun being in the centre of the solar system, with all the planets moving around it, correctly predicts the planets' positions in the sky. If a planet suddenly showed up in a different position than expected, we'd have to look at what's wrong with the theory.

 

As an example of an unfalsifiable theory, Popper named Freud's theories. Freud says that everyone has traumas, and if you don't remember any traumas, then you must have repressed them, that's why you don't remember. No matter what happens, Freud's theory is right, because it adapts to whatever data is present. His theory is not based on any data, anything external, or in fact on reality at all.

 

In order to avoid creating unfalsifiable pseudosciences, Popper says we should always be looking to disprove our theories, rather than to prove them. At least where I'm from, all university students, in all majors, learn this in their first year of university. It's a fundamental part of how we should do knowledge acquisition. Point being, it's not just some nonsense philosophy.

 

Your theory that dysphoria is always social in its origins reminds me of this concept. You don't seem to take into account any counter proof we bring up.

 

When we say that our dysphoria isn't social, because it's there even when we're alone, you say that we just don't know it, but it is. As 'proof' of your theory you give us hunches about what animals and humans who can't communicate might feel, which again, is impossible for us to prove or disprove as long as we can't ask them. When we say that in our experience, our body dysphoria seems to be linked to a mismatch in the map our brain has of our body, and what our body is actually like, you ignore this and simply say you refuse to believe dysphoria can be innate.

 

What would need to happen for your theory that dysphoria is completely social in its origins to be proven wrong? What data is it based on? How would you go about trying to falsify your theory?

 

9 hours ago, Just Somebody said:

Other animals don't have culture

And lastly, here's a pet peeve of mine: We don't know that for sure, but evidence is actually pointing to the contrary.

Right now, we have some evidence that humpback whales have a form of culture, because their mating songs depend on where they live, and they copy them from each other. New songs come into fashion, and old ones fall out of fashion.

We also have evidence that orangutan behavior is culturally based, that gorillas have sign language (which is why it was so easy to teach Koko human sing language), bonobos have primitive vocal language, and that elephants have some form of religion, as they hold funeral rites and practice 'moon worship.'

Quote

While grief is common to many animals, funeral rituals are not. However, they are well documented in African elephants.^[8]

Ronald K. Siegel writes that: "...one cannot ignore the elaborate burying behaviour of elephants as a similar sign of ritualistic or even religious behaviour in that species. When encountering dead animals, elephants will often bury them with mud, earth and leaves. Animals known to have been buried by elephants include rhinos, buffalos, cows, calves, and even humans, in addition to elephants themselves. Elephants have [been] observed burying their dead with large quantities of food fruit, flowers and colourful foliage."^[9]

We don't know if animals have gender roles. With the exception of great apes, elephants, dolphins and ridiculously smart birds like ravens and kea, I'm with you in that I think it's unlikely they have culture or gender roles, but we'd need to study that. We can't just assume they don't.

[Just Somebody]

5 hours ago, Laurann said:

 

Would you say dysphoria is only hate? I would also include discomfort, disconnect, shame, disgust etc in dysphoria. Dysphoria is a distressing incongruence between internal sense of gender and agab, right? So why only include hate?

 

I agree with this. It seems to be in conflict with you earlier posts though. So do you believe that body dysphoria exists independently of culture or don't you?

 

I think you've probably heard of Karl Popper's concept of falsifiability within the philosophy of science, right? If your theory can't be falsified, then it's pseudoscience. Theories are supposed to be able to predict things. The theory of the sun being in the centre of the solar system, with all the planets moving around it, correctly predicts the planets' positions in the sky. If a planet suddenly showed up in a different position than expected, we'd have to look at what's wrong with the theory.

 

As an example of an unfalsifiable theory, Popper named Freud's theories. Freud says that everyone has traumas, and if you don't remember any traumas, then you must have repressed them, that's why you don't remember. No matter what happens, Freud's theory is right, because it adapts to whatever data is present. His theory is not based on any data, anything external, or in fact on reality at all.

 

In order to avoid creating unfalsifiable pseudosciences, Popper says we should always be looking to disprove our theories, rather than to prove them. At least where I'm from, all university students, in all majors, learn this in their first year of university. It's a fundamental part of how we should do knowledge acquisition. Point being, it's not just some nonsense philosophy.

 

Your theory that dysphoria is always social in its origins reminds me of this concept. You don't seem to take into account any counter proof we bring up.

 

When we say that our dysphoria isn't social, because it's there even when we're alone, you say that we just don't know it, but it is. As 'proof' of your theory you give us hunches about what animals and humans who can't communicate might feel, which again, is impossible for us to prove or disprove as long as we can't ask them. When we say that in our experience, our body dysphoria seems to be linked to a mismatch in the map our brain has of our body, and what our body is actually like, you ignore this and simply say you refuse to believe dysphoria can be innate.

 

What would need to happen for your theory that dysphoria is completely social in its origins to be proven wrong? What data is it based on? How would you go about trying to falsify your theory?

 

And lastly, here's a pet peeve of mine: We don't know that for sure, but evidence is actually pointing to the contrary.

Right now, we have some evidence that humpback whales have a form of culture, because their mating songs depend on where they live, and they copy them from each other. New songs come into fashion, and old ones fall out of fashion.

We also have evidence that orangutan behavior is culturally based, that gorillas have sign language (which is why it was so easy to teach Koko human sing language), bonobos have primitive vocal language, and that elephants have some form of religion, as they hold funeral rites and practice 'moon worship.'

We don't know if animals have gender roles. With the exception of great apes, elephants, dolphins and ridiculously smart birds like ravens and kea, I'm with you in that I think it's unlikely they have culture or gender roles, but we'd need to study that. We can't just assume they don't.

I described gender dysphoria as hate because I'm also interested in knowing if animals have anything like human types of self hate, but we can describe dysphoria as a discomfort, shame, disgust, dislike, insert here other negative or disapproval feelings towards self.

 

 

I really appreciate the animal behavior facts, it's very interesting.

 

 

I know Popper, my theory is not unfalsefiable though, I'm not denying facts, I'm just busy lately and it's taking me a while to process all these informations and elaborate an reply (a synthesis), and that's why I'm still looking forward for evidence to proof it wrong, by the way, let me do a recap:

 

What I said in my last post doesn't contradict my beliefs at all, I said that gender dysphoria exists without culture, but it doesn't exist without social interactions, which are different from culture.

 

 

And Pan managed to make me rethink it, from Pan's life experiences, these social interactions doesn't even need to be human-human at all.

[anisotrophic]

@Just Somebody I think @KiraS said essentially what I would say... and maybe this is the tired reflection of older folks.

 

It isn't "just" a social construct. We don't get to extract ourselves from the world we live in.

 

The following items are "just" socially constructed:

* Language

* Money

* Traffic lights

 

You can say these are social constructs, but that doesn't mean you can ignore them and live as if they don't exist. (Please do not ignore traffic lights.)

 

We are a product of lived experiences. Our lived experiences include social interactions. We can try to "ignore" what others think and say, but there are some things one can't "ignore" -- lived consequences you can't control -- that range from deeply frustrating to dangerous.

 

We can't hope to change others, not more than a little. We can change ourselves -- quite a lot.

 

(In so doing, I would say that there are physiological experiences of gender, and they're real. Not being able to cry is real.)

 

I only have one life. I was female for 40 years, but I don't have to be female for the rest of it. And I mean that in an external sense, and partly physiological, not an internal identity. That has been an enormous relief.

[Janus the Fox]

2 hours ago, Just Somebody said:

I described gender dysphoria as hate because I'm also interested in knowing if animals have anything like human types of self hate, but we can describe dysphoria as a discomfort, shame, disgust, dislike, insert here other negative or disapproval feelings towards self.

I know that domesticated dogs can show a lack of self-esteem, which behaviours could be seen as self-harm.  There might be some interesting cases of animals showing behaviour considered not of their own sex.

[Acing It]

35 minutes ago, Janus DarkFox said:

I know that domesticated dogs can show a lack of self-esteem, which behaviours could be seen as self-harm.  There might be some interesting cases of animals showing behaviour considered not of their own sex.

There are plenty of examples, these being just one of them: https://www.nationalgeographic.com/science/phenomena/2013/11/26/same-sex-mothers-letting-albatrosses-be-albatrosses/

 

[Just Somebody]

2 hours ago, Janus DarkFox said:

I know that domesticated dogs can show a lack of self-esteem, which behaviours could be seen as self-harm.  There might be some interesting cases of animals showing behaviour considered not of their own sex.

Yeah, these animals with uncommon behaviors for their sexes and specially intersex non-human animals, Ive been wondering if they would be the ones to manifest any visible sign of dysphoria.

[Guest]

22 hours ago, Just Somebody said:

Even if this was the case for us humans (cultural animals), if we had no culture, including no ideas or any conception of anything gender related, we would still have "sex" or body dysphoria (it's very unlikely that social dysphoria would exist in my opinion at least in that scenario) if we could recognize human body differences including biological sex, what would only be possible if human social interactions were present. I say if human social interactions were present because we build our knowledge of ourselves in reference to other humans we can compare and relate to and identify with.

Even if you never met another person (or animal), most people couldn't help but notice their own genitals because they do things. Pee comes out of them, they hurt sometimes, they get engorged and you start playing with them or touch them or whatever and maybe it feels nice. They're different from an elbow or a back or a chin in that sense. If you don't like them, or they start causing you internal discomfort, that doesn't have to have anything to do with anyone else.

 

Then of course (even if you'd never met another person or animal) your genitals and the rest of your body start to 'do' things. Uncomfortable things. Did you know that for many girls, growing breasts is agony? And periods are agony? (as well as horrifying and weird-smelling, and I mean.. blood is coming out out of you for DAYS. That's TERRIFYING. If that was a wound it could KILL you if it bled that long).

Some women love those things, others hate them, some develop emotional pain and deep despair as a result of what's happening to them. Or for a guy, semen etc starts coming out their dick, it becomes erect at random times as he starts struggling with puberty, his voice starts changing. All kinds of weird, painful, gross, quite scary things start happening to specifically with relation to your gender. Especially your genitals.

 

You don't need to have ever met another person (or an animal) to develop a disgust, fear, and/or hatred for what's happening to you, and that's exactly what happens for some people.

[Just Somebody]

26 minutes ago, Not Pan Ficto. said:

Even if you never met another person (or animal), most people couldn't help but notice their own genitals because they do things. Pee comes out of them, they hurt sometimes, they get engorged and you start playing with them or touch them or whatever and maybe it feels nice. They're different from an elbow or a back or a chin in that sense. If you don't like them, or they start causing you internal discomfort, that doesn't have to have anything to do with anyone else.

 

Then of course (even if you'd never met another person or animal) your genitals and the rest of your body start to 'do' things. Uncomfortable things. Did you know that for many girls, growing breasts is agony? And periods are agony? (as well as horrifying and weird-smelling, and I mean.. blood is coming out out of you for DAYS. That's TERRIFYING. If that was a wound it could KILL you if it bled that long).

Some women love those things, others hate them, some develop emotional pain and deep despair as a result of what's happening to them. Or for a guy, semen etc starts coming out their dick, it becomes erect at random times as he starts struggling with puberty, his voice starts changing. All kinds of weird, painful, gross, quite scary things start happening to specifically with relation to your gender. Especially your genitals.

 

You don't need to have ever met another person (or an animal) to develop a disgust, fear, and/or hatred for what's happening to you, and that's exactly what happens for some people.

Well, that really makes sense, I can see why someone AFAB could develop negative feelings to an agonizing degree towards their bodies in that imaginary scenario of no interactions.

 

But ins't it something common for gender conforming cisgender people tho? 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Just Somebody said:

But ins't it something common for gender conforming cisgender people tho? 

The difference is in the degree of suffering I think. So a cis AFAB person might really not like it, but they won't dissociate or become suicidal over it, if that makes sense?

 

Example (this will be triggering for some, sorry) a gender-conforming cis woman may get pissed off about her period and complain about it etc, but someone who has severe dysphoria that is triggered by it will feel like the world is ending, feel like their body has betrayed them, and they may even need to hurt their body to punish it for this (that's just one example, it's what happened to me).

 

I'll spoiler this part to explain the details of my developing dysphoria:

 

Spoiler

 

I was so afraid of (and hurt on many levels by) the bleeding that I hid it from mum for years. At 10 years old I'd stay up all night waiting for mum to fall asleep so I could sneak out of the house and wash bloodied underwear in the river, if I couldn't get the blood out I'd bury them. I couldn't stop crying whenever I thought about it, and lived in terror of it happening.

 

I totally knew about periods (so I wasn't confused about what was happening) and mum didn't have a bad attitude or anything and my sisters were all fine with theirs and could even talk about it out loud like it was nothing! But for some reason, when it happened to me it felt like it destroyed me, made me hate myself, and I started huffing aerosols and cutting to punish my body. And it hurt so much deep inside the genitals as well, it felt like I was being torn open inside. I remember just lying on the couch and crying waiting for the pain to stop :c

 

And the boobs were agonising pain from about 9 years old, which also caused me massive hatred towards myself.. they also looked so alien and wrong to me. They were very swollen all the time and had large veins inside them, it was like two aliens on myself :c 

 

I'm 31 now and have only started even being able to type the word 'period' over the past month, and still cannot say it outloud, even when referencing a full stop  I also still get deeply uncomfortable having any gender-identifying words being directed at me like 'sister' 'daughter' 'mother' 'woman' (I REALLY hate that one) but male pronouns would feel just as wrong :c

 

But yeah I wasn't grossed out or anything by the idea of other people having periods or boobs, only me. It was like a betrayal of the worst kind, one I couldn't escape. And heck if I hadn't ever been around a person or other animal it may have been even worse because I wouldn't have even understood what was happening, so would have been terrified as well as disgusted and in pain - that would have been awful.

 

Also none of it happened because I felt like a man. It wasn't anything to do with that. It was just that these things were happening to me and I couldn't stop them, and never can.

 

For many transmen, transitioning to a new body (so they can be socially recognised as a man) can ease the dysphoria, and I think that's where the social part comes into it in many ways for both transmen and transwomen.

 

 

When it's so deep inside you, solely biological (so the social part doesn't change anything, even if I could be recognised totally as a different gender it wouldn't help)..  I don't know, there's just no escape :c

[Just Somebody]

1 hour ago, Not Pan Ficto. said:

The difference is in the degree of suffering I think. So a cis AFAB person might really not like it, but they won't dissociate or become suicidal over it, if that makes sense?

 

Example (this will be triggering for some, sorry) a gender-conforming cis woman may get pissed off about her period and complain about it etc, but someone who has severe dysphoria that is triggered by it will feel like the world is ending, feel like their body has betrayed them, and they may even need to hurt their body to punish it for this (that's just one example, it's what happened to me).

 

I'll spoiler this part to explain the details of my developing dysphoria:

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

I was so afraid of (and hurt on many levels by) the bleeding that I hid it from mum for years. At 10 years old I'd stay up all night waiting for mum to fall asleep so I could sneak out of the house and wash bloodied underwear in the river, if I couldn't get the blood out I'd bury them. I couldn't stop crying whenever I thought about it, and lived in terror of it happening.

 

I totally knew about periods (so I wasn't confused about what was happening) and mum didn't have a bad attitude or anything and my sisters were all fine with theirs and could even talk about it out loud like it was nothing! But for some reason, when it happened to me it felt like it destroyed me, made me hate myself, and I started huffing aerosols and cutting to punish my body. And it hurt so much deep inside the genitals as well, it felt like I was being torn open inside. I remember just lying on the couch and crying waiting for the pain to stop :c

 

And the boobs were agonising pain from about 9 years old, which also caused me massive hatred towards myself.. they also looked so alien and wrong to me. They were very swollen all the time and had large veins inside them, it was like two aliens on myself :c 

 

I'm 31 now and have only started even being able to type the word 'period' over the past month, and still cannot say it outloud, even when referencing a full stop  I also still get deeply uncomfortable having any gender-identifying words being directed at me like 'sister' 'daughter' 'mother' 'woman' (I REALLY hate that one) but male pronouns would feel just as wrong :c

 

But yeah I wasn't grossed out or anything by the idea of other people having periods or boobs, only me. It was like a betrayal of the worst kind, one I couldn't escape. And heck if I hadn't ever been around a person or other animal it may have been even worse because I wouldn't have even understood what was happening, so would have been terrified as well as disgusted and in pain - that would have been awful.

 

Also none of it happened because I felt like a man. It wasn't anything to do with that. It was just that these things were happening to me and I couldn't stop them, and never can.

 

For many transmen, transitioning to a new body (so they can be socially recognised as a man) can ease the dysphoria, and I think that's where the social part comes into it in many ways for both transmen and transwomen.

 

 

When it's so deep inside you, solely biological (so the social part doesn't change anything, even if I could be recognised totally as a different gender it wouldn't help)..  I don't know, there's just no escape :c

 

 

 

Okay, Pan,  your evidence is on point and I buy it, I mean the part where negative feelings towards ownself and body can develop even in  an imaginary scenary of isolation from other similar looking animals (I mean even if a poor human child was the last mamal in their environment, at least plants and some other non-mamal beings would be necessary to exist as source of food supply for survival, oh lol, sorry I sometimes let my imagination run wild).

 

 

But the thing is that your answer brings up a few other questions...

 

 

Like is dislike towards sexual characteristics of the body always dislike towards your own sex? in all kinds of scenarios? (I just remembered by the way that there's an psychological condition called body integrity dysphoria, among other names, in humans in which someone has a strong desire to remove healthy body parts from their bodies because they feel disconnected from them like as if they didn't belong in their bodies, but It's not the same thing as body sex dysphoria even though both of them can manifest both towards sexual characteristics, I wonder if non-human animals actually suffer from it too).

 

The first question also brings us to: how and where do we draw the line between suffering for having an AFAB body and suffering from body dysphoria? I can only say it still looks so "blurry" to me. It looks like that body sex dysphoria as well as gender dysphoria in general is away more common in cisgender women than what is popularly assumed.

[Guest Ca$hrina]

@Not Pan Ficto. It wasn't that you wanted to be a man, it was that you just didn't want to be female, or at least feel female, or having anything on you that would make you be seen as female. Does this makes sense?

It's how I feel.

[Guest]

17 minutes ago, Ca$hrina said:

@Not Pan Ficto. It wasn't that you wanted to be a man, it was that you just didn't want to be female, or at least feel female, or having anything on you that would make you be seen as female. Does this makes sense?

It's how I feel.

Being a man through surgery wouldn't 'fix' the dysphoria, because it comes from so far within me. Transitioning can help the social aspects of dysphoria for those who have it, but I don't seem to have the social aspects at all (and I'm someone with no social needs or anything, no friends by choice, so that may be a reason why I seem to lack the social aspects of gender dysphoria??)

 

And yeah it's odd because I LOVE women, I find them stunning (including their sexual characteristics, and men too!!) it's just having those things myself causes this deep ache inside me, like a sadness and horror and pain, it's so hard to explain!! I should be able to love being something that I love, right? Heck I think women especially are some of the most beautiful things on the planet. Women and maps lol because I love maps too. But for some reason I just have this dysphoria, and have always had it, for the very parts of me that make that thing which I love!

 

15 hours ago, Just Somebody said:

Like is dislike towards sexual characteristics of the body always dislike towards your own sex? in all kinds of scenarios? (I just remembered by the way that there's an psychological condition called body integrity dysphoria, among other names, in humans in which someone has a strong desire to remove healthy body parts from their bodies because they feel disconnected from them like as if they didn't belong in their bodies, but It's not the same thing as body sex dysphoria even though both of them can manifest both towards sexual characteristics, I wonder if non-human animals actually suffer from it too).

For me, it's not even wanting to remove them or have them changed, because the feeling is still there INSIDE. Whereas for the social aspects of dysphoria (from what I understand) being able to be seen by others, and accepted socially, as a different gender, can help ease aspects of dysphoria.  But for me it's not about how other people see me, it's just something inside me that is 'triggered' by having a gender at all

 

(for example, some people believe that our souls reincarnate, and may even reincarnate into other bodies on other planets. If that was true, it would explain my feeling if say my soul had been reincarnating into an entirely different kind of being on an entirely different planet, and this was my first human body or something. Maybe the beings I reincarnated into previously didn't actually have any kind of gender or something? I'm not saying that's true, just trying to explain how deep and confusing the feeling is).

 

Again, I LOVE women, and find women's bodies (even ones exactly like mine) to be stunningly beautiful. But it's like I exist separately from that somehow.

 

15 hours ago, Just Somebody said:

how and where do we draw the line between suffering for having an AFAB body and suffering from body dysphoria? I can only say it still looks so "blurry" to me. It looks like that body sex dysphoria as well as gender dysphoria in general is away more common in cisgender women than what is popularly assumed.

I think I can easily answer this one!

 

Suffering for a cis person from an AFAB(or AMAB) body that they don't like could be eased by surgery to change the parts they dont like. So say a woman whose boobs are to small for her liking and are causing her deep distress, surgery to get bigger breasts could fix this and she'd still be happy with her gender itself.  Or a man who is distressed by the size of his penis - if he could somehow get a bigger penis he'd be very happy with it and wouldn't feel distress about it anymore (just some random examples there)

 

Whereas with gender dysphoria (especially the internal kind) is more like "I'm this. And nothing can change that. Even surgery wouldn't change what I am inside, my chromosomes" if that makes sense?

[Just Somebody]

4 hours ago, Not Pan Ficto. said:

Being a man through surgery wouldn't 'fix' the dysphoria, because it comes from so far within me. Transitioning can help the social aspects of dysphoria for those who have it, but I don't seem to have the social aspects at all (and I'm someone with no social needs or anything, no friends by choice, so that may be a reason why I seem to lack the social aspects of gender dysphoria??)

 

And yeah it's odd because I LOVE women, I find them stunning (including their sexual characteristics, and men too!!) it's just having those things myself causes this deep ache inside me, like a sadness and horror and pain, it's so hard to explain!! I should be able to love being something that I love, right? Heck I think women especially are some of the most beautiful things on the planet. Women and maps lol because I love maps too. But for some reason I just have this dysphoria, and have always had it, for the very parts of me that make that thing which I love!

 

For me, it's not even wanting to remove them or have them changed, because the feeling is still there INSIDE. Whereas for the social aspects of dysphoria (from what I understand) being able to be seen by others, and accepted socially, as a different gender, can help ease aspects of dysphoria.  But for me it's not about how other people see me, it's just something inside me that is 'triggered' by having a gender at all

 

(for example, some people believe that our souls reincarnate, and may even reincarnate into other bodies on other planets. If that was true, it would explain my feeling if say my soul had been reincarnating into an entirely different kind of being on an entirely different planet, and this was my first human body or something. Maybe the beings I reincarnated into previously didn't actually have any kind of gender or something? I'm not saying that's true, just trying to explain how deep and confusing the feeling is).

 

Again, I LOVE women, and find women's bodies (even ones exactly like mine) to be stunningly beautiful. But it's like I exist separately from that somehow.

 

I think I can easily answer this one!

 

Suffering for a cis person from an AFAB(or AMAB) body that they don't like could be eased by surgery to change the parts they dont like. So say a woman whose boobs are to small for her liking and are causing her deep distress, surgery to get bigger breasts could fix this and she'd still be happy with her gender itself.  Or a man who is distressed by the size of his penis - if he could somehow get a bigger penis he'd be very happy with it and wouldn't feel distress about it anymore (just some random examples there)

 

Whereas with gender dysphoria (especially the internal kind) is more like "I'm this. And nothing can change that. Even surgery wouldn't change what I am inside, my chromosomes" if that makes sense?

 

But why care so much about the chromosomes? I mean you weren't even born knowing what these are, nobody is born knowing what's even molecular biology.

 

 

Who even cares about what's your molecular biology like? Besides... I can only think of those who gave it so much popular importance as they used it to justify their own interests as in to inferiorize and then exclude and exploit other humans. Molecular biology was used to justify  disgusting sets of historical events like modern slavery, the Holocaust, etc. Before molecular biology, skull measurements were used for pretty much the same kind of disgusting deeds until it became clear it was all nonsensical, but as they say out there "history repeats itself".

 

And not all transgender people care for what their molecular biology looks like or don't even know that at all (I mean as in nobody is born knowing what's molecular biology nor what's their own molecular biology looks like). Any one has another take on where can we draw the lines then?

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Just Somebody said:

But why care so much about the chromosomes? 

 

2 hours ago, Just Somebody said:

Who even cares about what's your molecular biology like?

 

2 hours ago, Just Somebody said:

And not all transgender people care for what their molecular biology looks like or don't even know that at all (I mean as in nobody is born knowing what's molecular biology nor what's their own molecular biology looks like)

 

2 hours ago, Just Somebody said:

Any one has another take on where can we draw the lines then?

 

'Chromosomes' was just the term I was using to define how deep the feeling is. The feeling was there before I knew the term 'chromosome'.. I mean, isn't that how gender dysphoria just works, in that exists whether or not you have words to describe the places the feelings are coming from? I have met many transpeople on AVEN in my 7ish years here, and all describe some kind of internal feeling that would exist even if there weren't words to describe the feeling or the places it comes from. For me, it feels a part of my genetic makeup, but in relation to the gendered/sexual aspects of my being. It felt that way before knew any of those terms or what they mean.

 

I feel you unfairly dismissed literally everything I said (which was a lot more than just the chromosome comment) based on that one misunderstanding. Or maybe you just skimmed through my comment, jumped on that one word, and tried to dismiss my argument based on that?

 

Because all my points were actually totally valid, and did actually show that what you were saying was incorrect. Just to make that clear.

 

 

[Just Somebody]

1 hour ago, Not Pan Ficto. said:

'Chromosomes' was just the term I was using to define how deep the feeling is. The feeling was there before I knew the term 'chromosome'.. I mean, isn't that how gender dysphoria just works, in that exists whether or not you have words to describe the places the feelings are coming from? I have met many transpeople on AVEN in my 7ish years here, and all describe some kind of internal feeling that would exist even if there weren't words to describe the feeling or the places it comes from. For me, it feels a part of my genetic makeup, but in relation to the gendered/sexual aspects of my being. It felt that way before knew any of those terms or what they mean.

 

I feel you unfairly dismissed literally everything I said (which was a lot more than just the chromosome comment) based on that one misunderstanding. Or maybe you just skimmed through my comment, jumped on that one word, and tried to dismiss my argument based on that?

 

Because all my points were actually totally valid, and did actually show that what you were saying was incorrect. Just to make that clear.

 

 

Just because I'm not visibly nodding to everything you wrote doesn't mean that I ignored it, but I have to point out to I'm not entirely convinced about the answers, otherwise I wouldn't even find necessary to still reply anyway.

 

 

The simple evidence that humans can be born with body integrity dysphoria and if we can count that as a form of self hate (can we?), then yes, I was wrong and humans and maybe even other animals can be born with self hate even in scenarios of extreme isolation from other beings that could've been looked up to.

 

And if body sex dysohoria works similar to body integrity dysphoria then yes, body sex dysphoria manifestation is not, (at least alone?), triggered by interactions with other animals one could relate to.

 

 

So yes, I think we are over my two statements that "all gender dysphoria manifestation is entirely triggered by social interactions" and that "nobody is born hating anything".

 

 

The lines between biological and social seem to be drawn, but then I still cannot see clearly the line between having disliking/hating your body's sexual characteristics and disliking/hating your whole sex and what even we can call body sex dysphoria I think is the biggest question? like someone could hate their vulva for a lot of reasons some social others biological, like even the body integrity dysphoria condition I mentioned.

 

 

I don't know whether or not this last paragraph makes any sense, but I'll probably rewrite these questions as soon as get to organize my thoughts to word it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Just Somebody said:

The lines between biological and social seem to be drawn, but then I still cannot see clearly the line between having disliking/hating your body's sexual characteristics and disliking/hating your whole sex and what even we can call body sex dysphoria I think is the biggest question? like someone could hate their vulva for a lot of reasons some social others biological, like even the body integrity dysphoria condition I mentioned.

If a cis woman hates her small breasts (and gets them surgically enhanced) and is now very happy with her breasts, then the dysphoria didn't come from her phydical sex, but from unhappiness with her breasts (same would apply to any other body part that she can make aesthetically prettier with surgery)

 

If a person with gender dysphoria feels like their breasts are wrong on them, and feels betrayed by their body having grown breasts (which no surgery can change, that happened in the past) and even if they got a reduction or augmentation or whatever so their boobs looked 'perfect', they'd still be dysphoric because the dysphoria is an internal characteristic related to their very biology. They're still someone who has a female body, and no type of breasts (big, small, full, etc) can make them feel less dysphoric about the fact that their body is female, if that makes sense?

 

Edit: oh and sorry about getting snappy before, I thought you'd dismissed everything else that I said and I type all this on my little phone screen usually while also cooking or cleaning at the same time, haha, so I get a bit frustrated sometimes if I feel I tried to explain something as best as I could and it was totally ignored cheers for explaining.

 

 

[Nylocke]

I guess it could be social to some extent but I was talking to one of my online friend about how if my chest was bigger I'd want them cut off due to heighten dysphoria. That discussion happened earlier this morning while in the past week 2 cishets commented on my looks in a way that made my skin crawl ... They weren't even inappropriate about it or anything but it just felt wrong x-x