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Lonemathsytoothbrushthief

Pronoun/gender entries and microaggressions

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Lonemathsytoothbrushthief

I don't like how many people on AVEN, mostly cis but some trans/non binary, use the pronoun and gender fields to show their dismissiveness towards the trans community. Sharing your gender identity and/or pronouns is important to those of us who never have these things assumed correctly and have been victims of transphobia, so putting your pronouns as elephant or gender as giraffe is a microaggression against us. And it's so common. It really stops it from feeling like a safe place for me.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/please-stop-making-jokes-about-gender-pronouns-when-people-tell-you-theirs/2019/12/11/8f6a063a-0a4d-11ea-8397-a955cd542d00_story.html#comments-wrapper

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SithEmpress

Serious question: I put "chick" in mine because I legitimately prefer it. I lean towards feminine pronouns but dislike most of the nouns associated with them "girl", "woman", "lady", etc. I know some of the older gen consider "chick" to be inappropriate slang, but would anyone who's trans care about my usage of the term? 

 

I do understand why joking about the pronouns is a bit offensive though. Sort of like the jerks who say "I identify as an attack helicopter" as a response to trans people saying how they identify. 

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Lonemathsytoothbrushthief
4 minutes ago, SithEmpress said:

Serious question: I put "chick" in mine because I legitimately prefer it. I lean towards feminine pronouns but dislike most of the nouns associated with them "girl", "woman", "lady", etc. I know some of the older gen consider "chick" to be inappropriate slang, but would anyone who's trans care about my usage of the term? 

 

I do understand why joking about the pronouns is a bit offensive though. Sort of like the jerks who say "I identify as an attack helicopter" as a response to trans people saying how they identify. 

No when I read yours I know what you mean straight away! I know many people, whether cis or trans, might have preferences for which gendered terms they use and you putting chick was still obviously a serious response ^_^ though it gets a bit much when it's a cis person putting "bitch" or "boss" or something. That's not a serious response, I do see some people trying to make a sort of "feminist" stand out of something which is really just emblematic of their cis privilege(like people who still regularly talk about themselves as "biological" women and hold some pretty essentialist views on gender, but claim gender needs to be abolished and everyone is non binary).

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Leo1142
Posted (edited)

I actually wanted to put "attack helicopter" into mine, lol. Not to insult anyone but simply as a joke. I do however understand, that some people might take it the wrong way or feel that I'm mocking them, so that's partially a reason why I refrained from doing so.

Edited by Leo1142

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Phoenix the II
10 minutes ago, Leo1142 said:

joke

ha... haa...

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LeChat

Good point. Since some members who put different responses for their gender mentioned in their posts that they didn't like it when others used binary gender pronouns for them in "real life," that they felt agender, cisgenderless, gender non-conforming, etc. and wish they were an animal than a human because they prefer or get along with animals better than other people (as introverts), I thought that was okay because they were talking about themselves not liking or feeling comfortable being referred to as binary pronouns.

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Lonemathsytoothbrushthief

@Leo1142 It's not about feeling insulted or mocked, that takes the problem down from a systemic to an individual issue. The point is, introductions including pronouns and gender were something we were trying to normalise because it is a way to encourage cisgender people not to assume which pronouns and other language someone uses, based on an idea of what people with different gender identities "should" look like which discriminates against transgender and non binary people. The larger issue is the assumption which people make based on your gender identity, about what your body should be like, or based on your body what your gender identity is, and that doesn't just insult people, it leads to things like discrimination in healthcare, having to misgender ourselves to get things like abortions or HIV medication, etc. A trans man not being able to be listed as the father of his child, or a trans woman as the mother. I'm not tying in all transphobia here, only stuff which can actually be pushed against if we get people thinking about language more carefully.

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Phoenix the II
1 hour ago, Lonemathsytoothbrushthief said:

I don't like how many people on AVEN, mostly cis but some trans/non binary, use the pronoun and gender fields to show their dismissiveness towards the trans community. Sharing your gender identity and/or pronouns is important to those of us who never have these things assumed correctly and have been victims of transphobia, so putting your pronouns as elephant or gender as giraffe is a microaggression against us. And it's so common. It really stops it from feeling like a safe place for me.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/please-stop-making-jokes-about-gender-pronouns-when-people-tell-you-theirs/2019/12/11/8f6a063a-0a4d-11ea-8397-a955cd542d00_story.html#comments-wrapper

Sorry, I don't the use of their self-identification as an attack on mine. It doesn't even say that the person in question would disrespect *my* gender & pronouns... 

 

It just could very well be someone just being light-hearted and silly...

 

However... there are some things connected to transphobia like 'Attack helicopter' <_< 

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Lonemathsytoothbrushthief
8 minutes ago, LeChat said:

Good point. Since some members who put different responses for their gender mentioned in their posts that they didn't like it when others used binary gender pronouns for them in "real life," that they felt agender, cisgenderless, gender non-conforming, etc. and wish they were an animal than a human because they prefer animals over other people, I thought that was okay because they were talking about themselves not liking or feeling comfortable being referred to as binary pronouns.

While this is true, there are still plenty of cases where this is bringing transphobia into the community. For example some of those people might describe themselves as "biologically" male/female...That sort of thing happens enough that I don't want to completely let it go unmentioned, though I know some of it can be things like language barriers too in which case I don't mind as much. But there are trans people perpetuating transphobia on here too.

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Lonemathsytoothbrushthief
5 minutes ago, Phoenix the II said:

Sorry, I don't the use of their self-identification as an attack on mine. It doesn't even say that the person in question would disrespect *my* gender & pronouns... 

 

It just could very well be someone just being light-hearted and silly...

 

However... there are some things connected to transphobia like 'Attack helicopter' <_< 

When so many cis people are "light hearted and silly" about something which is supposed to normalise people using different pronouns etc, it's a problem. I mean, is there actually difference between them saying "my gender is giraffe" and "my gender is attack helicopter"? I'd say it's the same joke!

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Phoenix the II
1 minute ago, Lonemathsytoothbrushthief said:

"my gender is giraffe" and "my gender is attack helicopter"? I'd say it's the same joke!

One's a transphobic well known meme...

 

The other.. has no such relations.

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Philip027

Not everyone is going to particularly care about gender, or what they are called.  You can't really make them do so.

 

Alternatively, this is kind of what results when you have a gender field in which you can put down anything you want.  You can't have something like that and then say "oh, but there's certain arbitrary things you can't put in this field".  Can't have it both ways.

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Galactic Turtle

Personally I've been participating in online communities since I was 12 in the early 2000's where I never declared my sex because not only did I find it irrelevant, it could also be dangerous. If a 12 year old girl wants to discuss Star Wars online, why does it matter that she's a 12 year old girl? While I don't personally identify with the concept of gender in general given what I've been told about it, online environments were the only place I could interact with people free from the expectations and assumptions that came with being female. To this day, most people assume I'm a man for years because how could a girl know this much about Star Wars and Formula 1 race cars? :P 

 

So while I understand gender and pronouns are really important for some people, in online spaces specifically I can understand why many folks would want to just toss the question entirely. And if someone does choose to specify their pronouns, it by all means makes sense to use them. But just because some people want to be addressed a certain way in online spaces does not mean all people want to be or care.

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Leo1142

Look guys, from my point of view, and that's especially true for the internet, it's completely irrelevant what someone calls you. What you identify as is what you are, probably not from the law side of things but from a personal perspective. Don't ever let anyone affect your personal view if you don't want to, but at the same time don't ever force anyone to call you what you identify as. If I, for example call you what you identify as then it's just me being polite and if I don't then you can just disregard me as rude.

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Anthracite_Impreza

Please let's not start policing what people can put in their own gender fields FFS.

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Phoenix the II
10 minutes ago, Leo1142 said:

if I don't then you can just disregard me as rude.

No, that'll actually get you reported. If you continue doing this and disregard ones pronouns after having being corrected on it.

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Leo1142
2 minutes ago, Phoenix the II said:

No, that'll actually get you reported. If you continue doing this and disregard ones pronouns after having being corrected on it.

Aren't you smart? I was not talking about this forum. I'm not rude so I will not be doing that. Why are you so upset with everything and everyone? Chill out.

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Lonemathsytoothbrushthief
12 minutes ago, Anthracite_Impreza said:

Please let's not start policing what people can put in their own gender fields FFS.

It's one thread in which almost everyone disagrees with me. Saying that's "policing" is pretty ridiculous.

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Lonemathsytoothbrushthief
Just now, Leo1142 said:

Aren't you smart? I was not talking about this forum. I'm not rude so I will not be doing that. Why are you so upset with everything and everyone? Chill out.

Why are you upset at her for simply correcting your comment?

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Phoenix the II
3 minutes ago, Leo1142 said:

Aren't you smart? I was not talking about this forum. I'm not rude so I will not be doing that. Why are you so upset with everything and everyone? Chill out.

Uhhh, I'm just following the TOS here as admin.

 

Also,

 

Lets just keep personal attacks besides here. 

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Anthracite_Impreza
4 minutes ago, Lonemathsytoothbrushthief said:

It's one thread in which almost everyone disagrees with me. Saying that's "policing" is pretty ridiculous.

Yeah but you're proposing it becomes an AVEN rule aren't you? Considering what forum we're in. If not then I apologise and leave you to your vent, but if you're proposing it becomes an actual rule we're only allowed certain "permitted" genders then no. That's not ok.

 

Incidentally I can and do get irritated by the attack helicopter thing for a very different reason - I'm otherkin. But ya know, everyone takes the piss out of us already - including trans people - so I guess I've got used to just sucking it up and dealing with it ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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Leo1142
1 minute ago, Phoenix the II said:

Uhhh, I'm just following the TOS here as admin.

Didn't realize you were an admin.

 

1 minute ago, Lonemathsytoothbrushthief said:

Why are you upset at her for simply correcting your comment?

Not simply for correcting my comment, even if there was nothing to correct in my opinion but also for:

 

48 minutes ago, Phoenix the II said:

ha... haa...

and the way she responded to the others.

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Phoenix the II

Yes, because identifying as an 'attack helicopter':

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/I_Sexually_Identify_as_an_Attack_Helicopter

 

Quote

The story's title is taken from an Internet meme used to disparage transgender people

 

Quote

AVEN does not tolerate elitist, racist, queerphobic, or sexist bigotry, as these create an environment that is hostile to the reasonable exchange of views. You may not post hateful, abusive, or disparaging content about people's race, national or ethnic origin, colour, religion, sex, gender identity, sexual orientation, romantic orientation, age, or mental or physical disability. This includes anything bigoted against 'asexuals', 'sexuals', 'aromantics' or 'romantics' as identifiable categories.
Posting offensive content, or bigoted propaganda, may result in an immediate and permanent ban from the forum. Offences judged less serious by the Admod Team will be dealt with under the Warning system outlined below.

 

It is not a joke...

 

So the unamused, ha.. haa... is well in place.

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Lonemathsytoothbrushthief
10 minutes ago, Anthracite_Impreza said:

Yeah but you're proposing it becomes an AVEN rule aren't you? Considering what forum we're in. If not then I apologise and leave you to your vent, but if you're proposing it becomes an actual rule we're only allowed certain "permitted" genders then no. That's not ok.

 

Incidentally I can and do get irritated by the attack helicopter thing for a very different reason - I'm otherkin. But ya know, everyone takes the piss out of us already - including trans people - so I guess I've got used to just sucking it up and dealing with it ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I'm not proposing it as a rule at all.

Also, I think we can both agree that most people doing these "joke" responses in the gender/pronouns fields aren't otherkin. Most are cis and not otherkin. I genuinely am fine with otherkin doing it but have seen those sorts of animal responses from people who aren't otherkin so...I'm just trying not to directly quote people but it's such a common thing that naturally the main people doing it are most likely ignorant about both trans people and otherkin. Many of the people I've seen with those sorts of entries in gender/pronouns also say and encourage things which I find transphobic, but because much of this is so common and sometimes you can't even ask someone making a transphobic remark whether they're cis, I don't see the point in writing about it anywhere else. So yeah, it's a vent.

I posted here because it's a place to talk about the site, and I wanted to comment on a sort of culture which I find upsetting.

Oh and the last purpose which I'm newly discovering is to find people I might want to ignore in the future, which is coming as a result of frustrating responses here(NOT specifying you, I'm just noticing how quickly this topic has disintegrated into defensiveness). Things are just genuinely very triggering for me.

The very reason I wouldn't make it a rule is that, as you say, some people have good reasons to identify the way they do on here, and I don't want the people hurt to be entirely otherkin, trans people and the people who genuinely care when the very problem is with people who don't care and are just ignorant.

I would say otherkin, plural people, trans people and intersex people for whom those fields can be much more complicated or upsetting are not the target of this thread.

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Leo1142
Just now, Phoenix the II said:

Yes, because identifying as an 'attack helicopter':

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/I_Sexually_Identify_as_an_Attack_Helicopter

 

 

It is not a joke...

 

So the unamused, ha.. haa... is well in place.

It's not well in place at all, did you even read the rest of that comment? I refrained from putting that in my field BECAUSE it wouldn't be amusing for most people on here. And even if I somehow wrote that comment differently so that your "haha" would be in place then you're still an admin, so you might as well act like it.

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Lonemathsytoothbrushthief
1 minute ago, Leo1142 said:

It's not well in place at all, did you even read the rest of that comment? I refrained from putting that in my field BECAUSE it wouldn't be amusing for most people on here. And even if I somehow wrote that comment differently so that your "haha" would be in place then you're still an admin, so you might as well act like it.

If you can't avoid personal attacks after what was in fact a correction you may as well leave this thread. I'm gonna ignore you anyway. Just consider that not doing the thing, while in fact defending the act of doing the thing, is almost as annoying as doing the thing.

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Phoenix the II
4 minutes ago, Leo1142 said:

It's not well in place at all, did you even read the rest of that comment? I refrained from putting that in my field BECAUSE it wouldn't be amusing for most people on here. And even if I somehow wrote that comment differently so that your "haha" would be in place then you're still an admin, so you might as well act like it.

Uhhh... I'm reacting towards the 'joke', not you?

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Leo1142
Just now, Lonemathsytoothbrushthief said:

If you can't avoid personal attacks after what was in fact a correction you may as well leave this thread. I'm gonna ignore you anyway. Just consider that not doing the thing, while in fact defending the act of doing the thing, is almost as annoying as doing the thing.

God, what is your problem? What in the world did I do to you? Just ignore me if you hate me that much...

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Anthracite_Impreza

@Lonemathsytoothbrushthief Look I get it, you've been hurt, a lot of people are knobheads are there are transphobes on this site (though granted most tend to get banned pretty quickly), but this is not a designated safe space except in T&S; it never has been. Outside of there you have to make allowances for some problematic speech because... no one's perfect. There's people on here I fucking hate, but unless you paid a stalkerish amount of attention to the fact I never like anything they post out of sheer spite and occasionally pull them up on stuff, you'd never know.

 

When people piss you off, walk away. Ignore them. Say your piece and leave it. The world is never going to stop triggering you; I'm sorry, but that's reality. We have to balance not being dickheads to each other and allowing freedom. It's not easy, it's not perfect and it usually skews too much one way or the other, but honestly, stop giving so much of a shit about what others say. Laugh at them, message your mates and rant or call them [not allowed word]s; that's what I do.

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Lonemathsytoothbrushthief
2 minutes ago, Leo1142 said:

God, what is your problem? What in the world did I do to you? Just ignore me if you hate me that much...

I don't hate you, I don't have a problem with you, I just do what I have to for my mental health and am tired of living in houses where my gender isn't respected, working in workplaces where my gender isn't respected, and continuing to see that disrespect on the internet. So yeah I'm ignoring you and it has nothing to do with hating you, I think everyone should put up boundaries when they aren't able to healthily interact with another person. Have a good day not leaving bad takes on trans people in my inbox. ^_^

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