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Which is worse. Covid-19 or the Panic?


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2 hours ago, Jade Cross said:

It's not the same watching out for one or two shady characters

On my flight to Hong Kong a few weeks ago, all people on the aircraft were wearing masks. No exceptions.

 

This had an immediate calming effect on potentially nervous flyers.

 

The moment you landed, you saw how strict things were.

 

I think the main issue, is socially that masks are shunned in western society. We find them useless, yet that very city of Hong Kong still has under 450 infections since its first one.

(this is a city of 7 million plus, that is incredibly densely populated).

 

Wuhan itself, is soon to open its border (around April 9th), having fully controlled the spread of the virus.

 

The issue is that our lack of mask use, forces us to rely heavily on others to protect us. Social distancing, is exactly that. You're trusting that others will not go do groceries while having a fever. That people will abide to social distancing rules, vs taking the matters in your own hands, which is more common in Asia, with everyone falling in line and wearing a mask.

 

That lack of consideration for others, is why this issue has gotten so bad in western societies, and mostly under control in Asian ones.

 

Closing down the airports, is more due to the Covidiots out there (they really need to make that a dictionary term) that free society can't stop unless laws are imposed to do so.

 

I.E Someone catches a cough in Shenzen, and gets on an aircraft that lands in Toronto--removing their masks in the airport, because they are now free to do so. I saw so many people do this on my flight.

 

I literally gave people half a bus worth of distance, as I was in disbelief.

 

Imagine that type of entitlement across an entire population.

 

There was no way you could not close down your airspace.

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I'm with you on the lack of consideration. It came up in the chat earlier - the main lesson to learn from this clusterf*** is the switch in thinking from "how do I protect myself" to "how do I protect the people around me".

 

That being said ...

Will people please PLEASE give it a rest with the masks. The WHO has a statement on that, the kind of mask you can get your hands on easily won't protect you from catching anything, they only limit the amount of germs you pass on to others.

 

 

Say you're in close proximity to a contagious person, and you're wearing a mask. Even if it were to protect you - the mask will now be contaminated (so will your clothes, most likely). Do you know how to safely dispose of a contaminated mask? Do you wash your hands correctly? Do you know how to deal with your contaminated clothes? If you answered "no" to any of those questions, congrats - you will have endangered yourself and potentially others due to misuse of gear you thought protective, out of a false sense of security.

 

Keeping your distance is more effective and needs less knowledge. Plus, it's really obvious if someone is messing up on that one. 😛

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1 hour ago, weird elf said:

Keeping your distance is more effective and needs less knowledge

Numbers don't lie.

 

Look at South Korea. Japan. Hong Kong, to name a few places that believe masks are effective. Look at the US, Canada, the UK, and several others that shun them and embrace social distancing.

 

The benefit with the masks is if worn by all, that they will protect you on that very basis that there is an individual who is sick who isn't observing social distancing. You know, kind of like in many cities where people were ignoring the warnings, hence the worsening of the situation.

 

Social distancing becomes highly ineffective, say--your doctor is checking you for something else, and you were sick unknowingly.

 

If you're at a grocery, and within a foot of the cashier, putting through your payment. In many other job settings, where you just don't have a choice but to be close to others.

 

Social distancing is impossible in places like a bus. Some cities have barricaded that distance from the driver (by caution tape-ing it off), but what about the passengers?

 

You're essentially a sitting duck on public transportation.

 

The WHO also were adamant that IVs were the only way to administer fluids during Ebola outbreaks in Africa. Sometimes, you must be pragmatic to an issue. Many doctors there, realized that with their hazmat suits in sweltering heat, that IVs were too time consuming. Was best to get patients to drink it.

 

Social distancing relies far too heavily on cutting down crowds to a level you're partially shutting down a city.

 

I've been to Japan, China, to name a couple, and you'll be hard pressed to see a youth without hand sanitizer and a mask.

 

You'll have a hard time finding masks that aren't individually sealed, and thus creates this mentality where you have to avoid contaminating it at all costs.

 

Also, you have not been to either of the above countries, if you think that this hasn't created a level of paranoia causing people to use bleach to wash their clothes, and disinfect their entire homes.

 

Heck, you even got public messages, to clean the P traps in your sink, via boiling water or disinfectant.

 

I could only speak for myself, but my mask is waterproof and has lining in it to protect me in full. Plus it looks great on me, as stylish masks were a thing over there so I bought a batch.

 

I agree with you on the basic masks. They only protect others from someone who is sick (the whole point of hospitals handing them out if you're feverish).

 

However, if you get a society buying into either masks or distancing--the masks have shown to being more effective (while still allowing for a city to run).

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14 minutes ago, Perspektiv said:

Numbers don't lie.

Which is why we can't compare effectiveness effectively (hah) until the measures have been in place for a comparable amount of time.

 

 

edit, actually the IV thing is the same reasoning. They may be objectively better under ideal circumstances, but unless a) available, b) practical and c) used correctly, said ideal circumstances may not be a given.

Masks may be objectively better if a) the correct kind, b) used and disposed of correctly, c) used by everyone. Unless all of that is given, distance may still yield the better results. (Numbers, as you said, will tell - in a week or two.)

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1 hour ago, weird elf said:

Which is why we can't compare effectiveness effectively (hah) until the measures have been in place for a comparable amount of time.

That is fair. 

 

However, how do you get a society as free as say, the US to obey without taking draconian measures and shutting everything down?

 

Shutting things down even a guy like Donald Trump understands, isn't realistic long term. Not only would it cripple the economy, but the domino effect of this would reverberate for years. This goes from suicides, increased crime and the other things that go hand in hand with falling through social cracks. 

 

1 hour ago, weird elf said:

They may be objectively better under ideal circumstances

Correct. Out in tents, with sweltering heat in protective gear isn't one of those circumstances.

 

Just like you will have a devil of a time to get a mass of people who are mostly social, not to socialize. 

 

This is where controlling the issue becomes impossible. You have to take drastic measures to do so. 

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I don't think it's about freedom so much as it's about the aforementioned entitlement on the one hand and understanding the measures and their necessity on the other. The less entitled, the better capable of understanding, the more likely any group of humans will follow instructions. Goes for school children, goes for co-workers, goes for anyone. Slam a load of regulations on people and they will protest (and rightfully so) - if you want compliance, you need them to understand why.

 

You also need them to believe you, where yet another main factor comes into play - competent leadership. But we've kinda covered that I think.

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2 hours ago, weird elf said:

 

You also need them to believe you, where yet another main factor comes into play - competent leadership. But we've kinda covered that I think.

So the US is screwed. 

 

Adding insult to injury, they want to put about 1, 000 soldiers at their border to keep us Canadians out o_O

 

Because if it isn't Mexico, Europe or China--its Canada that is propagating the issue within your borders. 

 

I think you're onto something. Masks won't help. They need underground bunkers.

 

I do agree however, that with strict enforcement and good leadership, that social distancing can be highly effective. 

 

That's the tricky part, however. 

 

In my city, people are buying into it. Even at bus stops, people are abiding to the requests for it. 

 

Here's to hoping that stops its momentum. 

 

If it doesn't, I will stick to my fashionable mask.

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Kinda wish the government panicked more. Their lack of a response and late attempts to patch things, along with their general incompetence and corruption in moving financially, is damning. Our healthcare system has always sucked, it is just now blatantly apparent exactly how uncommitted we are to fixing things.

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Unleash the Echidnas
52 minutes ago, Zagadka said:

Our healthcare system has always sucked, it is just now blatantly apparent exactly how uncommitted we are to fixing things.

I got curious and was looking at the US CDC's 100 year retrospective on the 1918 H1N1 pandemic a few days ago. It's an interesting read and has got a bunch of cool stuff in it but, down towards the end, there's a telling paragraph.

Quote

If a severe pandemic, such as occurred in 1918 happened today, it would still likely overwhelm health care infrastructure, both in the United States and across the world. Hospitals and doctors’ offices would struggle to meet demand from the number of patients requiring care. Such an event would require significant increases in the manufacture, distribution and supply of medications, products and life-saving medical equipment, such as mechanical ventilators. Businesses and schools would struggle to function...

 

I forget if it was in this particular thread, but a while back @Gatto linked an article which seemed to make a number of similar points. However, I feel like it's maybe important to consider it's not just the United States' healthcare system which has been challenged.

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1 minute ago, Unleash the Echidnas said:

I feel like it's maybe important to consider it's not just the United States' healthcare system which has been challenged.

Several countries have or have effectively nationalized their hospitals. The US is still run on mostly private systems, and they aren't being funded right now. Everyone is kinda screwed, but the US is really screwed. I know that every country is struggling with challenges to their systems, but the US system is of particular interest and it is particularly bad right now. It is the one I can fight for change for and know the most about.

 

Even assuming we pulled out a vaccine, how would it be distributed under private healthcare, much less provide beds for infected people?

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nutterwithasolderingiron

i'd say the panic. at this point i'm so fatigued about it. 100% honest, i've kinda just been wanting to make a pillow fort and tell anyone who mentions corona virus to fuck off and they cant enter. 

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SorryNotSorry

The panic is definitely the worst. Paralyzing oneself with fear makes sense if you’re a social gadfly or immunocompromised, but I’m neither.

 

My roommate thinks otherwise. He’s turned into a real Cassandra since this pandemic blew up and he’s driving me up the wall with his paranoid hypochondria. He has developed a parent complex, determined to make me miserable and do everything in his power to keep me from dying a happy man.

 

It’s a good thing he hasn’t moved out, because he’d likely have freaked himself out and died of a heart attack by now. Not to mention he wouldn’t be around to save me from myself.

 

Once this virus fizzles out, he’s going to look like a fool.

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SorryNotSorry
1 hour ago, Arodash said:

The way I see it paralyzing yourself with fear never makes sense. The worst part of our fight or flight responses is the freeze response. I try telling people that panic will only make things worse they need to slow down and think rationally

Worse yet, the guy is a know-it-all science geek who bends the facts to defend his POV to ridiculous lengths.

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Yeah, its annoying hearing people talking like they're sitting ducks to their imminent death.

 

If you're that scared, wear a hazmat suit to do groceries. I've seen several in my city with full on gas masks doing so. Of course, cart full of toilet paper, and the entire shelf worth of Lysol.

 

Precautions I understand. I'll never understand the panic, as there is always something or someone that will throw a wrench into this unless you lock yourself in your house, and college unemployment insurance. Most of us, have to go to go back to work eventually or we live on the streets.

 

I.E Was taking a power walk, and had this drug addict creep up on me asking for change, and coughing on me. No matter how hard you try, is my point being made.

 

I was in Hong Kong weeks ago, taking extreme precautions. One old man pulled his mask off to cough the most bronchial cough I have ever heard, a foot away from me, only to turn into my direction as I had the "are you fucking serious!?" glare locked into him.

 

People need to understand how highly unlikely their symptoms are to be mild, observe precautions and be mindful of others and live your life. If everyone did this...

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Neither are worse. The worse is around ten commercials an hour which are either the government saying things every knows anyway, or companies crowing about what they're doing 

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1 minute ago, Skycaptain said:

Neither are worse. The worse is around ten commercials an hour which are either the government saying things every knows anyway, or companies crowing about what they're doing 

the tesco one is like a weird satire sketch

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If there was, say, one an hour I wouldn't mind, but I must have heard forty today 

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J. van Deijck

I think the panic is worse.

 

The virus itself, of course, should not be ignored as it really exists; all we have to do is to stick to the safety rules and take care of those who are in higher risk. Coronavirus doesn't kill everyone, only the 'weakest' ones and they should be protected the most. However, everyone can pass it further, even if they don't get sick themselves. (Btw, there's about 200 types of coronaviruses and most of them are responsible for flu, so the thing itself is nothing new for us - just this particular virus is).

If we do our best in the meaning of safety, like staying home when we feel sick or avoiding direct contacts with others, then hopefully the pandemic ends sooner. The problem starts in shops now. People are buying everything off and then others have no possibility to make simple groceries. Later most of the food is going expired and being thrown away, which is a problem actually.

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J. van Deijck
13 hours ago, Skycaptain said:

Neither are worse. The worse is around ten commercials an hour which are either the government saying things every knows anyway, or companies crowing about what they're doing 

Oh, this too. The media is full of corona news and they're literally talking about nothing else.

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neither! Because we now have viruses larger than some bacteria!

Pithovirus_sibericum_sketch.jpg

this is about the size of a small bacterium. it is even larger than the Smallest eukaryotic organism identified Ostreococcus tauri which is only .8 μm compared to the ~1.5 μm this thing possesses. Now compare this....THING.... to the SARS-CoV-2 virus, then you'll realize that COVID-19 is insignificant compared to what could be lurking in uninhabited places. It's Name is Pithovirus!

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Like I said to a friend. Sick people don't riot and loot. Death from disease isn't a pretty picture, but in the long run there'll be more death from human action or inaction taken.

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I think the news is largely responsible for the panic. Many failed to inform accurately, and preferred to fan the flames of panic. 

 

Also not helping, was the many insanely slow thinking governments who could not adapt to the rapidly unfolding situations.

 

Very few governments were quick acting, even with information on their side, adding to the mass panic. 

 

Many stores were ill equipped to adapt to the situation. Those that did which were rare, were quick to calm the storm. 

 

This is a wake up call to many, in how you need to be prepared for these types of events. 

 

How highly unprepared that we are. 

 

The only benefit some are seeing, is that this disease doesn't pick via social class. Life no longer is about money, and trivial things in times like these. 

 

This broke down what is important for many quite bluntly. 

 

 

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This type of setting also has brought about some ironic situations. 

 

IE the many ordering take out food as it is too unsafe to venture outside too often. 

 

 

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@Perspektiv, I agree about governments being slow to react. Its one thing for somewhere like China, the index nation, or Italy, the first in Europe, but why, say here in Britain, our government hadn't started getting the logistics for the health service in place earlier I've no idea. 

Same with closure orders. Rather than instant closure, just two or three days notice would have saved a lot of wastage in the leisure industry. 

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Someone sprayed silicone over the windshield of an essential worker's car yesterday because they were upset over how the worker going out every day (this is in NZ). The worker cares for elderly people who are unable to look after themselves properly or shop for themselves or anything, and this idiot in a panic over Covid sprayed her damned windshield. She couldn't go to work so old people were left unattended, because the stuff wouldn't come off her window and all the glass places were closed! Luckily she was able to source the material to get it off (you need something specific to remove silicone apparently) so she can go back to work now, but how stupid can people be?? Grr 😕

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On 3/31/2020 at 2:20 AM, Skycaptain said:

Rather than instant closure, just two or three days notice would have saved a lot of wastage in the leisure industry. 

Yeah, this was a catastrophic mistake for several countries, notably the US.

 

They not only shut down their borders in full, but gave little notice. Panic stricken travelers, raced to return, only to be stuck in epic bottlenecks in the respective airports they returned in.

 

Many likely sick. Few to none, wearing masks--just sitting ducks. All to then return to their communities.

 

I keep mentioning Hong Kong, but of all the airports I've been to, they were the most organized. They were well aware of the dangers, so amplified their security checks and systematically closed off their borders.

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Airports were one thing we managed fairly well. It was the number of people who travelled when other countries were implementing shutdowns which are the problem. Its estimated that we've 400k still needing to be repatriated 

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9 hours ago, Not Pan Ficto. said:

Someone sprayed silicone over the windshield of an essential worker's car yesterday

That's part of the issue. People panic, and start to act irrationally. We're seeing neighborhood vigilantes calling the police if they see a neighbor outside. Worse even, public shaming someone for going to work, or doing groceries, calling them murderers and the like.

 

This is just getting started, but will only worsen.

 

Saw footage in Australia, of two Asian women being cornered by angry women telling them to leave the country. When they refused to move, one of the assailants, spits in their faces, and blames them for the coronavirus plaguing their country. What she was too ignorant to notice, was that the two Asian women, shared the exact same accent that she did.

 

Am also starting to see a lot more of this, which is scarier.

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Holy sh!t, what is wrong with the world.

 

 

Over here, on the other hand, the measures seem to be yielding results. There's been a slight decrease in new Covid-19 cases in spite of more testing being done, and the institute that monitors influenza and other respiratory illnesses has noticed a significant decrease in flu / cold cases (though IMHO part of that may be due to fewer people needing to call in sick because they're off work anyway, so I guess it's more like a slight decrease in actual cases).

 

So, to all in week 1 of stay-at-home orders, this is week 2 with a message from the future: It appears to be working. Keep on keeping on!

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But is it working? We have a near lockdown, estimates are between 2-5% of the population have caught this. What about the 90%? We can't afford to stay in this situation until a vaccination is developed and distributed. 

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