BBC - "NHS gender clinic 'should have challenged me more' over transition"

[Rynn]

@Emery. Okay, thank you for clarifying. I was already hoping I'd misunderstood what you were trying to say  

[Winter-Cattle]

7 minutes ago, KiraS said:

Which, curiously enough, is what trans communities actually say about the matter. 

That may be the case in the trans communities you have been active in, but it is not universally accepted among all trans communities. I still see comments very often in trans communities, across different platforms, that transitioning is the only treatment for dysphoria. It's why I've heard so often that detrans/desisters are trans but in denial - because it is so often believed that if you have dysphoria, you need to transition.

[Emery.]

1 hour ago, Winter-Cattle said:

Not at all, no, unless it's intended to be an insult.

Hm. I get negative reactions about it. It begins whole wars about gender stereotypes and women’s power and feminism and the such. That things shouldn’t be gendered. How do you deal with that then? 

 

And yes, I saw quite a few people go through a non-binary stage before ending up binary trans. 

[KiraS]

Sure, transmedicalists exist. However transmedicalists are an extremely vocal and cranky subculture and have very little influence on standards of practice which emphasize taking steps at your own pace, within the boundaries of your means and safety. 

[Winter-Cattle]

3 minutes ago, Emery. said:

That things shouldn’t be gendered. How do you deal with that then? 

I've never had such a conversation in real life, I don't think. I don't think anyone has outwardly commented on me in this way since I was a teenager, and at that time, their comments were based in homophobia more than anything else.

 

6 minutes ago, KiraS said:

Sure, transmedicalists exist. However transmedicalists are an extremely vocal and cranky subculture and have very little influence on standards of practice which emphasize taking steps at your own pace, within the boundaries of your means and safety. 

Transmedicalists, however, have huge influence online. Someone's "own pace" is very likely to have been influenced by transmedicalists if they have been on online transgender communities, even those not explicitly transmedicalist. In the video I linked on the previous page, Elle mentions being more "social justice warrior" aligned, while privately believing that dysphoria is needed to be trans. 

[Emery.]

1 minute ago, Winter-Cattle said:

I've never had such a conversation in real life, I don't think.

I did many times  I don’t think something being masculine or feminine is offensive so I just call things masculine or feminine sometimes. But a lot of people find an offence in it, especially women. I’m the person to say that men are this way and women that way but rather in a light hearted manner. I also am a target of feminist erratas, because I am an engineer. And I find those crusades in my direction very unnerving.

[Emery.]

44 minutes ago, Winter-Cattle said:

Transmedicalists, however, have huge influence online. Someone's "own pace" is very likely to have been influenced by transmedicalists if they have been on online transgender communities, even those not explicitly transmedicalist

Yeah. I agree with that. 

[Lonemathsytoothbrushthief]

5 hours ago, Emery. said:

Sorry if that sounded harsh, I don’t mean that there is something wrong with being non-binary. I just notice what others think, and this is what I wanted to say, it’s by no means my own opinion. 

 

Or do you mean that gender identity has impact? I haven’t noticed that personally. I mean, outside of guilt tripping yourself about identifying a certain way. And outside a fraction of people who actually care about others saying the right complements. 

It IS harsh. You reduced an umbrella to a single, pretty stereotypical version of non binary experiences and even that is doing a disservice to the people who have similar identities/expressions...

 

Being excluded from society isn't exactly a lack of negative treatment, and when we do come up it's dismissed. The grammatical non-correction which gets people writing "he or she" instead of they makes me dysphoric or upset because it's seen so much in journals...fucking academic style guides. Non binary people don't have one type of transition, some of us prefer to be seen as another binary gender, some would rather not with any of it. Cissexism and the gender binary just add to my already atrocious mental health...

 

Would you like to have your community's existence erased, so the only options in forms and such all make you dysphoric? It's not fun, just because not all non binary people experience dysphoria this way doesn't mean I'm not going to stick my head up to make a point that it does affect us.

[Emery.]

I really don’t know what to say. I think there is nothing objectively offensive about forgetting to mention pronouns or some other part of the non-binary experience in a discussion, we aren’t completing a guide that is meant to be comprehensive. I was hoping to just talk informally. 

 

But I’m sorry that what I said upset you. I’m sorry about what you have to go through and I have also had my fair share of erasure and pronouns correcting, it can be very unnerving. 

[Lonemathsytoothbrushthief]

2 hours ago, Emery. said:

I really don’t know what to say. I think there is nothing objectively offensive about forgetting to mention pronouns or some other part of the non-binary experience in a discussion, we aren’t completing a guide that is meant to be comprehensive. I was hoping to just talk informally. 

 

But I’m sorry that what I said upset you. I’m sorry about what you have to go through and I have also had my fair share of erasure and pronouns correcting, it can be very unnerving. 

I just wanted to reply, because the things you write are the things I see everywhere, even among people accepting of the non binary umbrella as an umbrella containing many identities it still gets narrowed down to the same experience. Non binary people have less dysphoria than binary trans people, and legally and socially are more often seen as their assigned gender, that's the cliche experience everyone highlights. Why the assumption that we have less dysphoria, or our identities are safer? Some non binary people face pretty much the same transphobia as binary trans people while some would frankly agree with you that they are relatively safe in expressing themselves how they feel comfortable. It varies a lot, as does dysphoria, both social and physical: people can want all sorts of medical transitions or none, and can want all sorts of social transitions or none. They can choose gender neutral names sure, but maybe they're also aligned with the other binary gender, or they're bigender or fluid etc? They might pick names more typical of women or men as well in that case. And be confused with binary trans people. Anyway the pronoun stuff which hurts me is reading through paper after paper, for my thesis, my own paper, all kinds of things, towards teaching and listening to them at conferences, and feel dysphoric because they go out of their way not to use gender neutral language. That, not knowing whether I'd still be dysphoric if I changed my passport to male, being told I can only change gender and title to male in the nhs, worrying if it would affect my medical transition with gatekeeping. Seeing other researchers speaking about trans voice training deliberately exclude non binary people from their study because supposedly we're not interested in it. Hearing feminists repeatedly ignore our existence, even sometimes if they talk about trans issues.

 

My social dysphoria can't go away so long as people are trained to avoid gender neutral language, in the service sector, in research, in healthcare or wherever else. Sure we all get misgendered, but I cannot emphasise enough that when I read some psychology study and they say "he or she" it's additional dysphoria on top of the bloody choir people talking "male/female voices", with the biological essentialist stuff about gender which we are all affected by.

 

And yeah you also seemed to be forgetting about the experiences of AMAB non binary people. Transmisogyny affects people like @KiraS as well as trans women, that definitely doesn't make their identities safer or something.

 

Anyway, tying it back to the topic of the thread, I'm tired of people wondering if someone being obviously transphobic might be non binary, just because they pull an "I don't like labels" line out of their ass...that can be something someone non binary says, but many of us also very much enjoy having labels, and it's also just a really classic gender "critical" stunt - helps their transphobia go under our radar because they can make it hard to tell if they're trans with internalised transphobia or just cis transphobes. I've ended up watching videos from detransitioners in the past, and tbh the most famous cis women are really toxic, while the perspective of detransitioned AMAB people online was less likely to just be terf rubbish. Some of those people did seem to be non binary, but when a detransitioned trans man says they don't like labels and follows it with a dozen terf dogwhistles, I tend to reject any notion of them being non binary. Anyway, I kinda raise my eyebrows that even Elle has only had collaborations with Blaire White and Kalvin Garrah, out of ALL the possible non conservative-truscum-and-generally-horrible youtubers. Definitely doesn't make her videos anything I'd watch. This isn't related to my quote of you anymore but I'm surprised people don't question some of these other well known detransitioner youtubers etc. I fell into the hole because there's a channel of four detransitioner cis women talking about their experiences, and they end up collaborating with this cis guy who's just the most insidious transphobe, his videos were really triggering and when I went in the comments I saw he was basically talking a closeted trans woman out of medically transitioning despite her dysphoria. That's why I have so little interest in those videos, people easily underestimate that sort of transphobe and I'd rather not keep triggering dysphoria.

[Winter-Cattle]

7 hours ago, Lonemathsytoothbrushthief said:

they can make it hard to tell if they're trans with internalised transphobia or just cis transphobes

I personally prefer not to label my gender identity, due to the dysphoria I experienced in the past from doing so. Which one of those do you consider me to be?

 

7 hours ago, Lonemathsytoothbrushthief said:

the most famous cis women

Most detransitioned/desisted women would not consider themselves to be cis. I personally don't consider myself to be cis, and I feel as though it erases my experience.

 

7 hours ago, Lonemathsytoothbrushthief said:

terf rubbish

It's a very easy rabbit hole to fall down when "TERFs" decide to participate in detrans spaces as they see our stories as helping out their cause. I'm sure I'm unknowingly using some of their language because of how pervasive they are. While this is very controversial to admit, parts of their ideology have helped me become less misogynistic. I can't stand the way they speak about men or transgender people, though.

 

7 hours ago, Lonemathsytoothbrushthief said:

Anyway, I kinda raise my eyebrows that even Elle has only had collaborations with Blaire White and Kalvin Garrah, out of ALL the possible non conservative-truscum-and-generally-horrible youtubers. Definitely doesn't make her videos anything I'd watch.

What you've got to bear in mind is that those people both invited Elle onto their channels after hearing about her story, rather than the other way around. Transmedicalists love detrans stories because they hate trans communities, and see stories like hers as proof of how damaging the trans community is, so will promote them. People with less conservative views are unfortunately avoiding the topic completely or dismissing it as something that almost never happens, which I really hope will change. I would love to see collaborations in the future from less controversial YouTubers.

[Lonemathsytoothbrushthief]

@Winter-Cattle I definitely wasn't saying all detransitioned afab trans people are cis women. Though I do want to say, are you saying you don't see your gender as anything other than female but still regard yourself as trans? I know there are intersex people who consider themselves part of the community because of how intersexism affects them, similar to cissexism, but with prominent detransitioners attacking the trans community that's not gonna be easily accepted I think.

 

Also, what exactly is there to be learned from terfs? They're transphobes larping as feminists, any commentary they think they have on our lives is done better by intersectional feminists who also don't litter their ideas with dogwhistles and triggers for dysphoria.

 

When it comes to "the most famous" detransitioners...these are the ones I've watched, and in many cases they're friends with prominent transphobes(and yes, kalvin garrah and blaire white are included in that, what they've done goes beyond truscum/transmed) who again, I literally watched tell a vulnerable closeted trans woman that she should just accept her "natural" body and live as a man...when it was clear that was making her suicidal in an unsafe environment. I found the things I watched triggering myself. I also find it extremely unlikely that the only trans people willing to talk to Elle would be the literal worst, who also have the biggest most popular channels. Kalvin Garrah has targeted someone who almost commited suicide from the harassment. Even if they wanted to talk to me and no one else did, I'd tell them to fuck off. Blaire White's also racist and Kalvin Garrah is very ableist, between the two of them they're tokens of the right as well as of transphobes.

 

Oh btw the story about the closeted trans woman happened in the comments of a Benjamin something or other, a cis guy who repeatedly interviews detransitioners including a channel of four who seem to support his views(the trans community causes social contagion blah blah, mentally ill people shouldn't be allowed to transition, whatever), and also makes generally transphobic videos.

[Winter-Cattle]

1 hour ago, Lonemathsytoothbrushthief said:

Though I do want to say, are you saying you don't see your gender as anything other than female but still regard yourself as trans?

No, I consider myself neither cis nor trans. I understand there is a lot of black-and-white thinking in trans communities, where everyone is considered to be either the absolutes of "cis" or "trans", with nothing in between or outside, but I don't believe I fit into that model. 

 

1 hour ago, Lonemathsytoothbrushthief said:

Also, what exactly is there to be learned from terfs?

To be honest, I think it was an age thing. In the past I got annoyed with other types of internet feminists, but I could relate better to TERFs. They were older, straight-talking women, rather than teenagers making confusing and changing demands. Not sure if those demographics are still accurate, but I no longer hate women, and they are partially to thank for that.

 

2 hours ago, Lonemathsytoothbrushthief said:

I also find it extremely unlikely that the only trans people willing to talk to Elle would be the literal worst

Do you know any more progressive-leaning transgender people who even mention the topic of detransitioning? Any who cover the stories, rather than bring up the repeated "0.27%" statistic and leave it at that? I would be interested to see, but I personally only come across people who talk about it because it fits their agenda. Again - these are people who went out of their way to invite Elle on to their channel to talk and hear her story. There is nothing to motivate less controversial trans YouTubers to bring up the topic, and it likely would not go down well with their subscribers anyway.

 

2 hours ago, Lonemathsytoothbrushthief said:

Benjamin something or other

Shapiro?

 

2 hours ago, Lonemathsytoothbrushthief said:

seem to support his views(the trans community causes social contagion

I really don't know how to refute statements like that, considering my own experience and the experience of many others.

[Lonemathsytoothbrushthief]

27 minutes ago, Winter-Cattle said:

Do you know any more progressive-leaning transgender people who even mention the topic of detransitioning? Any who cover the stories, rather than bring up the repeated "0.27%" statistic and leave it at that? I would be interested to see, but I personally only come across people who talk about it because it fits their agenda. Again - these are people who went out of their way to invite Elle on to their channel to talk and hear her story. There is nothing to motivate less controversial trans YouTubers to bring up the topic, and it likely would not go down well with their subscribers anyway.

I do understand that there is a problem with trans people who are not actually intending to delve deeper into topics bringing up other communities. This is the case with many trans people who talk about intersex people, indigenous people whose understanding of gender does not fit into western terms(which imo are another case of potentially neither cis nor trans) and so on, but I also don't believe people like Riley Dennis, Alexander Jasper Jay and other similarly non transmed trans youtubers who speak against bigotry in many ways would be unwilling to talk and welcome detransitioners online if they asked. There's a big difference between "the trans community doesn't accept us and therefore we don't speak with them usually" and "we specifically speak with the most bigoted, token minority trans people who regularly side against the larger community as well as against other minorities and you made us do it". I just don't believe you're as pessimistic about the specific people I bring up as imo trans people have a right to be(and I maintain: I'm not saying we should be pessimistic about all detransitioners, but the most popular examples become as popular as they do because the many conservative trans people, transmeds, as well as terfs, transphobes and just your typical cis person who doesn't really feel like learning about trans people, but finds detransitioners controversial/interesting, watch them).

34 minutes ago, Winter-Cattle said:

No, I consider myself neither cis nor trans. I understand there is a lot of black-and-white thinking in trans communities, where everyone is considered to be either the absolutes of "cis" or "trans", with nothing in between or outside, but I don't believe I fit into that model. 

I do somewhat sympathise, but I also find other trans people who complain about the "binary/non binary binary" really irritating which is a worse example of what I feel is incorrectly thought of as black and white thinking. I can accept that there are grey areas between cis and trans, I even mention one which is intersex people who don't identify as trans but see ideas about matching assigned gender as irrelevant to their experiences too. Another is indigenous people/other people whose culture doesn't follow the western gender binary who identify as other than male or female, because trans identity is based in the western gender binary and so different terms should be used by themselves to reflect their culture. People do recognise that there is a lot of grey and trans has always been a broad umbrella. But the very terminology of detransitioning is based in fairly cissexist ideas even though I understand the label has allowed you to form communities, because what cis people frame as detransitioners often includes trans people as well and it's derived from the notion that you're not actually trans if you don't medically transition...I know you likely have gone past that framing and wouldn't agree with it.But why is it that the better examples of detransitioners brought up in this thread still don't explicitly counteract the transphobic narratives around them? THAT is why it's not easy for me to stomach the random video or article which might come onto my timeline about detransitioners. It's not you but it definitely is them.

42 minutes ago, Winter-Cattle said:

Shapiro?

 

Even slimier than him, Benjamin A Boyce. He gets less attention but I just find the idea of talking a suicidal trans person out of transitioning as just the vilest I've encountered. Trans people don't talk about him, so trans people interested in detransitioners are more likely to be manipulated by him.

44 minutes ago, Winter-Cattle said:

I really don't know how to refute statements like that, considering my own experience and the experience of many others.

Your experience isn't representative of the entire trans community, and all that's needed to talk about this without feeding into transphobic narratives is to talk about how in some areas some people might be pressured into transitioning, but there are other areas which don't do this and other people who might seem to be pressured might actually have been misrepresented...plus, as someone deeply afraid of being gatekept out of getting hormones and top surgery on the basis of mental illness and autism, if I ever even get diagnosed WITH the mental illnesses and autism which I have been struggling alone with for most of my life now I've cut abusers out and started looking for treatment, I do NOT feel safe around articles of detransitioners talking about why they feel mental illness or autism allowed them to be pressured into transitioning. Ableism is a huge problem as a trans person in a country which doesn't use informed consent, and when these articles are coming up specifically in the uk, where there's such antagonism around trans kids and neurodivergent trans people transitioning and capacity to consent, they are a part of the larger transphobic media which is having real effects on healthcare. So I really want to see pretty much exactly the same perspectives coming from these detransitioners but with an addendum that they believe their stories shouldn't be used to question our capacity to ever consent to trans healthcare.

 

I'm sorry if I've said something that's obviously incorrect, if you point it out I will respond. But this is a topic which has me afraid for my future to be honest.

[Rynn]

5 minutes ago, Lonemathsytoothbrushthief said:

but I also don't believe people like Riley Dennis, Alexander Jasper Jay and other similarly non transmed trans youtubers who speak against bigotry in many ways would be unwilling to talk and welcome detransitioners online if they asked.

Hmm I think they might actually be unwilling to do that though. Personally, whenever I've come across detransitioners and looked a bit deeper into their profiles, I invariably came across terfy statements, which is why tend to distrust them. I'm not saying all detransitioners are like that of course. Elle seems to be an exception. But I don't think I'm the only one who has that initial reaction of distrust to detransitioners. It might be a reason for progressive trans folks not to invite detransitioners onto their platform just in case they turn out to later do something shitty. 

I do think progressive trans folks should talk about it more, but it's such a minefield that I think they might be scared to.

[Lonemathsytoothbrushthief]

8 minutes ago, Laurann said:

Hmm I think they might actually be unwilling to do that though. Personally, whenever I've come across detransitioners and looked a bit deeper into their profiles, I invariably came across terfy statements, which is why tend to distrust them. I'm not saying all detransitioners are like that of course. Elle seems to be an exception. But I don't think I'm the only one who has that initial reaction of distrust to detransitioners. It might be a reason for progressive trans folks not to invite detransitioners onto their platform just in case they turn out to later do something shitty. 

I do think progressive trans folks should talk about it more, but it's such a minefield that I think they might be scared to.

I agree. I feel like the effect where the most conservative trans folks who are easy to tokenize become popular thanks to transphobes and more ignorant cis folks is magnified when it comes to detransitioners, because even if they aren't cis the ones who are coming up generally aren't trans and transphobes identify with them.

I still maintain this happens less with I guess MTFTM if we're gonna use such language folks. I watched such a person for a while on youtube, can't remember if they identified as non binary or just didn't talk about their gender and actually identified as male. But they were the only youtuber I found who talked about this experience without sounding terfy. One of the reasons is because transphobes have the narrative that cis women are being brainwashed into identifying as trans, which ties in with narratives that mentally ill and autistic people are being brainwashed even more...so yeah I'm exactly as scared as you say the others might be. I really want to finally get diagnosed with the disabilities I've clearly had my whole life, address my trauma and stop feeling suicidal, and the literal worst time trying to do that is when you're also going through WPATH following gender clinic gatekeeping processes, under a media which definitely wouldn't see an autistic trans AFAB non binary depressed person with BPD and childhood trauma as capable of consenting...but I just want to be comfortable in my body, get help for my trauma and coping mechanisms/medication for the rest, when it's hard to even get diagnosed.

 

But I still genuinely think there are plenty of trans youtubers who would be willing to talk about it. Alexander Jasper Jay made videos taking down Buck Angel, as well as Kalvin Garrah, I really doubt he's unwilling to go into a new minefield...and even if these youtubers and such aren't able to talk with other trans people, that doesn't justify when they let their stories turn up in the media in a way which weaponises them against trans issues.

[Winter-Cattle]

18 hours ago, Lonemathsytoothbrushthief said:

"we specifically speak with the most bigoted, token minority trans people who regularly side against the larger community as well as against other minorities and you made us do it"

I don't think that's a fair statement to make about Elle. She didn't specifically go out and find the most controversial YouTubers, they were the ones who reached out to her.

 

19 hours ago, Lonemathsytoothbrushthief said:

But why is it that the better examples of detransitioners brought up in this thread still don't explicitly counteract the transphobic narratives around them?

It is a very easy rabbit hole to fall down when you feel you have been misled by the trans community, when the trans community disassociates itself with you, when the trans community tries to deny your existence, and when the only people supporting you (or seeming to support you) are transphobic themselves. It is difficult to be detrans/desisted and not be transphobic. 

 

19 hours ago, Lonemathsytoothbrushthief said:

Your experience isn't representative of the entire trans community, and all that's needed to talk about this without feeding into transphobic narratives is to talk about how in some areas some people might be pressured into transitioning, but there are other areas which don't do this

But my experience is very similar to other detrans/desisted people. I do not believe it is limited to "some areas", I believe it is still pervasive in every single trans community online. The attitudes that caused me suicidal ideation are present in the replies to this thread from members who identify as belonging to the trans community. And this forum could not be much further from transmed-leaning.

 

19 hours ago, Lonemathsytoothbrushthief said:

I do NOT feel safe around articles of detransitioners talking about why they feel mental illness or autism allowed them to be pressured into transitioning

I don't believe it is a coincidence that almost everyone has a condition that is associated with obsessive thinking, such as autism, eating disorders, obsessive-compulsive related disorders, stress/trauma disorders, etc. I do believe that my autism is what allowed me to get so obsessed and so influenced, and I don't think it's something that should be discounted, even if it is inconvenient.

 

18 hours ago, Laurann said:

t might be a reason for progressive trans folks not to invite detransitioners onto their platform just in case they turn out to later do something shitty. 

I have noticed that. A progressive-leaning trans person (A) invites someone (B) onto their channel once, and the viewers will then go and find out everything there is about this new person (B). If (B) has ever said something they don't fully agree with, before or since, (A) is blamed for even associating with them, even if nothing controversial happened in the video itself. I believe that had something to do with Natalie (contrapoints) disappearing from social media.

 

18 hours ago, Lonemathsytoothbrushthief said:

Alexander Jasper Jay made videos taking down Buck Angel, as well as Kalvin Garrah, I really doubt he's unwilling to go into a new minefield

Progressive-leaning trans YouTubers may have no problem "taking down" controversial people, but would they ever invite them onto the channel to simply talk on neutral terms? I don't agree with Blaire White in many ways, but I like that as she is a controversial figure, she has no issues inviting other controversial figures to simply talk things through without trying to "take them down". So much more can be covered when neither party is being aggressive or defensive. 

 

18 hours ago, Lonemathsytoothbrushthief said:

that doesn't justify when they let their stories turn up in the media in a way which weaponises them against trans issues

The only people willing to cover detrans stories are those intending to weaponise them. Until that changes, the only way to get your story heard by a wider audience is to talk to controversial figures. The trans community needs to address detrans people properly so that we no longer become a topic that can be weaponised. I'm not happy that I can't be open about something I consider to be important about myself, because it's such a controversial topic that people have to take "sides" on. 

[Lonemathsytoothbrushthief]

6 hours ago, Winter-Cattle said:

Progressive-leaning trans YouTubers may have no problem "taking down" controversial people, but would they ever invite them onto the channel to simply talk on neutral terms? I don't agree with Blaire White in many ways, but I like that as she is a controversial figure, she has no issues inviting other controversial figures to simply talk things through without trying to "take them down". So much more can be covered when neither party is being aggressive or defensive. 

The people I mention them taking down are not "controversial", they are or at least WERE pretty uncontroversially harmful to associate with. See Buck Angel, someone who scams his own community for doing things he then proceeds to call "self mutilation"...

Anyway, we're never going to agree and I find the very concept of placing the visibility of detransitioners above the real risks they have caused to even my own access to trans healthcare far too triggering to continue with this conversation. Also Natalie stans annoy the hell out of me lmao.

[KiraS]

Meanwhile, out there in the real world:

• Legal transition is a process that requires weeks of work, legal assistance, and nearly constant banging against bureaucracies.
• Workplace transition is an extremely high-risk proposition, with some advocates admitting that it's better to hold off on making changes until one gets a bona fide offer of employment in one of the few jurisdictions that offer protection. 
• More than half of trans people can't get even basic health care, much less medical support for transition. A majority of trans people do not have access to medical transition either due to finances or a lack of service providers. 

All of the above are threatened via a wave of anti-trans legislation. The more extreme laws would prevent counseling and prescription medication for mood disorders or trauma where gender dysphoria is involved. That's the level of care I'm at. 

[Winter-Cattle]

15 hours ago, Lonemathsytoothbrushthief said:

Also Natalie stans annoy the hell out of me lmao.

I genuinely can't work out this sentence?

 

9 hours ago, KiraS said:

Meanwhile, out there in the real world:

Do you believe that detransitioned people do not exist in the real world? Not sure why you have created this contrast.

 

9 hours ago, KiraS said:

All of the above are threatened via a wave of anti-trans legislation. The more extreme laws would prevent counseling and prescription medication for mood disorders or trauma where gender dysphoria is involved. That's the level of care I'm at. 

I don't see how this links into the improved care for trans-identifying people that many of us want?

[KiraS]

Your entire argument here has been in support of the position that standards of care for trans people are too liberal, designed to push gender-questioning people quickly into permanent legal and medical changes. My position is that trans people are routinely denied even basic (non-transition) medical care and legal support for transition, and that situation is almost certain to get worse for thousands of trans people over the next few years. 

[Winter-Cattle]

44 minutes ago, KiraS said:

Your entire argument here has been in support of the position that standards of care for trans people are too liberal, designed to push gender-questioning people quickly into permanent legal and medical changes. My position is that trans people are routinely denied even basic (non-transition) medical care and legal support for transition, and that situation is almost certain to get worse for thousands of trans people over the next few years. 

And those are contrasting how? Both can, and very evidently do, exist at the same time. It does not, and should not, be a choice of one or the other. Improvements to standards of care for trans-identifying people would benefit us all.

[KiraS]

36 minutes ago, Winter-Cattle said:

And those are contrasting how? Both can, and very evidently do, exist at the same time. It does not, and should not, be a choice of one or the other. Improvements to standards of care for trans-identifying people would benefit us all.

The reality that the majority of trans people do not have access to basic medical care, much less trans-affirming specialists directly contradicts your claims that current medical practice is aggressively pushing trans youth into advanced transition. Since your claims contradict extremely well-docuemented fact, they're fraudulent. 

[anisotrophic]

I'm not a fan of the language, "de-transition".
 

It seems to deny a potential interpretation for each change (in each direction) being the right one for an individual, at the time they did it. Neither direction being viewed as a "mistake" to regret. People are placed in a discourse of picking sides, of redefining their decisions as mistakes.

 

Can we simply change, and maybe change again, without having a sense that one choice or another was "wrong"?

 

I take this sensibility from a comment I saw recently on Reddit from someone ftmtf -- no regret, comfortable that each transition was simply what was right for them, only that what was right for them changed over time.

[KiraS]

Simply put, if I were dictator, I'd mandate the following: 

• Comprehensive and universal access to trans-affirming health care, including long-term counseling relationships
• Support for non binary and GNC identities as part of that process. 

[Winter-Cattle]

54 minutes ago, KiraS said:

The reality that the majority of trans people do not have access to basic medical care, much less trans-affirming specialists directly contradicts your claims that current medical practice is aggressively pushing trans youth into advanced transition. Since your claims contradict extremely well-docuemented fact, they're fraudulent. 

Then how do you explain the experiences of many detransitioned people, such as Elle or the other detrans women mentioned? Listening to their stories, do you not believe that the specialists they all saw were "too liberal", as you put it? Do you not believe it is possible that that, while access to healthcare may be an issue for the majority of trans-identifying people, there are other places that are actually too willing to allow people to transition?

 

31 minutes ago, anisotrophic said:

I take this sensibility from a comment I saw recently on Reddit from someone ftmtf -- no regret, comfortable that each transition was simply what was right for them, only that what was right for them changed over time.

You've got the bear in mind that is not a universal experience. Some detrans people believe that transitioning was the best choice for them at the time, such as Ellie and Nele in the bbc article linked earlier. Others feel like they should have been challenged more, such as Keira in the original article. And there are various neutral or in-between attitudes within the community. 

[KiraS]

5 minutes ago, Winter-Cattle said:

Then how do you explain the experiences of many detransitioned people, such as Elle or the other detrans women mentioned? Listening to their stories, do you not believe that the specialists they all saw were "too liberal", as you put it?

Putting anecdotes over hard data is a bad argument. 

[anisotrophic]

6 minutes ago, Winter-Cattle said:

You've got the bear in mind that is not a universal experience. Some detrans people believe that transitioning was the best choice for them at the time, such as Ellie and Nele in the bbc article linked earlier. Others feel like they should have been challenged more, such as Keira in the original article. And there are various neutral or in-between attitudes within the community.

I understand that. I’m saying the language and discourse (to me) seems to veer to defining choices as needing to be permanently correct, as if what’s right at any given point is true one's whole lifetime, pushing people into defending their choices in that manner at each turn.

 

That doesn't mean there aren't people that think they made the wrong choice, that it wasn't the right choice for them at that time. But the space to say, "that was right then, and this is right now" is important.

[Winter-Cattle]

Just now, KiraS said:

Putting anecdotes over hard data is a bad argument. 

"Hard data" can be flawed, such as the "40% suicide" figure. Transgender issues are only an emerging research topic, let alone detrans issues. There's a lot more work that needs to be done. The reality is that detransitioned people exist and something went wrong to allow that to happen, even if there are no clear statistics on how common their experience is.

[Lonemathsytoothbrushthief]

58 minutes ago, anisotrophic said:

I'm not a fan of the language, "de-transition".
 

It seems to deny a potential interpretation for each change (in each direction) being the right one for an individual, at the time they did it. Neither direction being viewed as a "mistake" to regret. People are placed in a discourse of picking sides, of redefining their decisions as mistakes.

 

Can we simply change, and maybe change again, without having a sense that one choice or another was "wrong"?

 

I take this sensibility from a comment I saw recently on Reddit from someone ftmtf -- no regret, comfortable that each transition was simply what was right for them, only that what was right for them changed over time.

YEP this is exactly  what I meant in that it comes from a very cissexist understanding of trans people - the belief that you're not REALLY trans until you've medically transitioned and can easily pass, which among many of the transphobes I've interacted with leads to the perception that they can just drop all attempts to gender someone correctly if they haven't already medically transitioned, and even if they have they can be misgendered when referring to their pre medical transition self. This is how my supervisor talks about his trans colleague, he thinks it's acceptable to call her he for the majority of her life in which she was presumably either closeted or questioning but not in a good environment. So that sort of cissexism/transphobia leads to the idea that if you regret that medical transition, clearly you're not actually trans, and if you're going off of things like hormones that's exactly the same as detransitioning. I have to be clear, these sorts of transphobes are more common than I think people realise and in my experience most of the ones I met were 60+ year old white cis british people. Likely the terfs in our media are similar.

 

I'm just more easily triggered by that sort of transphobia because it meant being with a family who clearly didn't want me to ever mention being trans and to let them continue misgendering me to each other, until I was medically transitioning which for me right now is pretty damn far away. No compassion for the lack of access to trans healthcare we have, just this assumption of "oh well you LOOK female/male so I have every right to call you that" which may not even disappear with medical transition(that's also why I think the situation of passing/not passing is so much more complex than interactions with strangers, some people will pin all the respect they extend to your gender identity on how you look, even though for someone passing well they may seem completely accepting).