BBC - "NHS gender clinic 'should have challenged me more' over transition"

[iff]

15 minutes ago, theV0ID said:

Why would it? Gender transition and abortions are rather different subjects.

They are different subjects but both deal with body autonomy and personal consent to medical treatment. 

 

There is the principal of Gillick competency for medical treatment

 

This is from a GP on the subject (read the thread) 

 

 

If the court decides a 16 year old couldn't be capable of making a decision on transitioning, then can the court make a call on whether this individual is able to terminate a pregnancy? 

[Philip027]

Quote

Why would it? Gender transition and abortions are rather different subjects.

It's insinuating minors can't properly give consent to issues surrounding their body.  Pregnancy is potentially one of those such issues.

 

Abortion/hysterectomies/etc is something that some people already run into issues trying to get done because doctors/practitioners don't want to perform them on people that are "too young" that might "change their mind", and a good chunk of them aren't even minors anymore.  This would just be adding more fuel to that fire.

[Acing It]

On 3/2/2020 at 5:26 PM, Winter-Cattle said:

but I was somehow able to come to terms with being a woman again once I removed myself from everything transgender related. It is apparently something (relatively) quite a lot of girls and young women experience if they don't fit into society

I have experienced this with the people I work with as well, several times. I agree with you. However, it is and always will be an in between a rock and a hard place situation, pending some real magic or baffling science. There will always be people with your experience and people who are trans who are in real distress and diffiuclty. Short of magically being able to distinguish between the two, I really can't see any resolution to this conundrum. And it's hard, really hard, for those who end up on the wrong side.

What doesn't help at all is for this to turn into some kind of bandwagon IMO.

[Winter-Cattle]

18 hours ago, iff said:

If the court decides a 16 year old couldn't be capable of making a decision on transitioning, then can the court make a call on whether this individual is able to terminate a pregnancy? 

I'd hope not. Terminating a pregnancy doesn't prevent future pregnancies. The mothers almost always have primary childcare responsibility, so it would be a huge step back for women's rights. Unwanted teenage pregnancies definitely make it harder to gain access to education and employment, especially in young women without family support. Transition, meanwhile, can be irreversible, depending on what it involves.

 

13 hours ago, Acing It said:

There will always be people with your experience and people who are trans who are in real distress and diffiuclty

I can't tell if you are making a dichotomy or not. Are you saying someone's distress and difficulty is not real if they are not trans? Or are you saying both trans people and people who desist/detransition go through real distress and difficulty?

 

13 hours ago, Acing It said:

What doesn't help at all is for this to turn into some kind of bandwagon IMO.

Could you please explain what it is you mean by this? I know what bandwagon means, but I don't understand what it refers to in this context.

[Acing It]

51 minutes ago, Winter-Cattle said:

Could you please explain what it is you mean by this? I know what bandwagon means, but I don't understand what it refers to in this context.

In very general terms, there are a lot of people who struggle with these issues but what I mean with this turning into a bandwagon is:

1. that people who struggle with their gender see this as a go to place and then run with it.

2. that there are (vulnurable in other ways) people who see all this in the media and they feel this makes them more interesting, without understanding how difficult this is for people to deal with. It's happened before with issues like this. I've come across people who were pretending to be gay because it was fashionable and people who said they had certain mental health issues (like depression) or were neuro a-typical (such as Aspergers) because they thought it was fashionable/a trend/ and completely underestimated or misunderstood  what this means.

3. that it becomes some converse fashionable thing in itself in social media that people either use for any of the above or on the other hand another group of people use to stigmatise or pigeon hole people without knowing what they are talking about. Bandwagons can work in similar ways to stereotypes.

[Acing It]

1 hour ago, Winter-Cattle said:

I can't tell if you are making a dichotomy or not. Are you saying someone's distress and difficulty is not real if they are not trans? Or are you saying both trans people and people who desist/detransition go through real distress and difficulty?

Oops, didn't see this until now.

I'm not making a dichotomy at all apart from making an abstraction I make to make a point (ouch there's a lot of 'making' in this sentene). I don't think in black and white dichotomies. The distriss of both groups (another abstraction, not real) is very real but they probably require a different kind of solution. Distinguishing between the two is very, very difficult sometimes and there is no easy solution, bar psychology making a miraculous leap and finding a way to make that distinction. A balanced approach should recognise this and because there's no easy solution, mistakes will happen on both sides. I think reality is multi-faceted on multiple levels. 

[Winter-Cattle]

3 hours ago, Acing It said:

2. that there are (vulnurable in other ways) people who see all this in the media and they feel this makes them more interesting, without understanding how difficult this is for people to deal with. It's happened before with issues like this. I've come across people who were pretending to be gay because it was fashionable and people who said they had certain mental health issues (like depression) or were neuro a-typical (such as Aspergers) because they thought it was fashionable/a trend/ and completely underestimated or misunderstood  what this means.

3. that it becomes some converse fashionable thing in itself in social media that people either use for any of the above or on the other hand another group of people use to stigmatise or pigeon hole people without knowing what they are talking about. Bandwagons can work in similar ways to stereotypes.

Thanks for explaining. While I think some people could potentially identify as transgender, autistic, etc. because they see it as "interesting" or "fashionable", I'm not convinced they're anywhere near the majority. I believe most people who mis-identify in this way genuinely feel like the label is accurate. I genuinely believe what I experienced would have fit the diagnostic criteria for gender dysphoria. I very genuinely felt like I was a man born to a woman's body. I felt like I was "pretending" when I told people I was actually female, and have been accused of lying about it many times. On all autism spectrum sites I have used bar one or two, most people who identified as autistic, but who were not diagnosed, did so because they had difficulties in their life that they personally believed were explained by the label of autism. At least for me and for the sites I have used, I do not see this explanation as being at all accurate. 

 

3 hours ago, Acing It said:

Oops, didn't see this until now.

I'm not making a dichotomy at all apart from making an abstraction I make to make a point (ouch there's a lot of 'making' in this sentene). I don't think in black and white dichotomies. The distriss of both groups (another abstraction, not real) is very real but they probably require a different kind of solution. Distinguishing between the two is very, very difficult sometimes and there is no easy solution, bar psychology making a miraculous leap and finding a way to make that distinction. A balanced approach should recognise this and because there's no easy solution, mistakes will happen on both sides. I think reality is multi-faceted on multiple levels. 

Thanks again for explaining. I ask because I have very often seen desisters/destransitioners called "transtrenders" and told that that their distress, dysphoria, etc. is not at all "real" or "true".

[Lonemathsytoothbrushthief]

9 hours ago, Winter-Cattle said:

Thanks for explaining. While I think some people could potentially identify as transgender, autistic, etc. because they see it as "interesting" or "fashionable", I'm not convinced they're anywhere near the majority. I believe most people who mis-identify in this way genuinely feel like the label is accurate. I genuinely believe what I experienced would have fit the diagnostic criteria for gender dysphoria. I very genuinely felt like I was a man born to a woman's body. I felt like I was "pretending" when I told people I was actually female, and have been accused of lying about it many times. On all autism spectrum sites I have used bar one or two, most people who identified as autistic, but who were not diagnosed, did so because they had difficulties in their life that they personally believed were explained by the label of autism. At least for me and for the sites I have used, I do not see this explanation as being at all accurate. 

 

Thanks again for explaining. I ask because I have very often seen desisters/destransitioners called "transtrenders" and told that that their distress, dysphoria, etc. is not at all "real" or "true".

Thanks for saying this. I had a bad experience with people who see self diagnosis this way because in a house I lived, my housemates flipped on me when I had a meltdown in the evening, spent 2hrs telling me something ELSE must be wrong with me because I wasn't like their trans and autistic friends, later on when I got angry at them over it went on at me about how I was harming actually autistic people for self diagnosing even though I explicitly said I tell people because of sensory issues/shutdowns/meltdowns, eventually I had to move house because being with them gave me panic attacks and they lost my keys at one point, they'd gotten so hostile towards me. Also, I'm self diagnosed but have been on the waiting list for an assessment on the nhs for 29 months now and a year for the gender clinic list.

[Emery.]

 

On 3/10/2020 at 7:26 PM, Philip027 said:

Many trans people will agree they're scrutinized more than enough already.

Yes. I agree. I know what I’m doing and I wasn’t unreasonable as a teenager either. And I get way too much scrutiny. As if I couldn’t think for myself and make sound decisions. Know what’s good for me, what I want, etc. Oddly, I got that from people who were supposed to be my friends. And I consider it disrespectful and rude what they did. 

 

However, in my opinion, medical staff should carry out an appropriate examination of someone’s... well, ability to decide for themselves and should act accordingly. Medical interventions are a serious issue, doctors are responsible for it, because they have more insight than the patients, so they should gather sound evidence to back their decision, and yes, either a doctor or a therapist should offer guidance to the patient if needed. And there is not enough of that insight and thinking and the medical staff just want to either gatekeep completely or give hormones to everyone without questions, underaged individuals included. 

[Emery.]

On 3/14/2020 at 10:14 PM, Acing It said:

And it's hard, really hard, for those who end up on the wrong side.

Ah, I’m on the completely other end of things than said individuals who come to terms with womanhood. I experienced something similar in my early teens, however, it had nothing to do at all with my gender identity. It was rough to be a gender non-conforming kid, you’re just vulnerable at this age and everything hurts 100 times as strongly as it should. However, I got questioned about those “women’s issues” over and over and over, and nobody listened to what I said about getting that and being over it. Me being oblivious to those things was being treated as an excuse to question me once again and disbelieve me. I wish people left me alone and understood that I’m masculine, I enjoy being masculine, that’s the way I want to be treated, and that there is no underlying reason for it. Simple respect for others, especially when being clearly told that someone doesn’t want to talk things through for whatever reason - does it cost much? 

[Winter-Cattle]

On 3/28/2020 at 2:16 PM, Emery. said:

 

Yes. I agree. I know what I’m doing and I wasn’t unreasonable as a teenager either. And I get way too much scrutiny. As if I couldn’t think for myself and make sound decisions. Know what’s good for me, what I want, etc. Oddly, I got that from people who were supposed to be my friends. And I consider it disrespectful and rude what they did. 

 

However, in my opinion, medical staff should carry out an appropriate examination of someone’s... well, ability to decide for themselves and should act accordingly. Medical interventions are a serious issue, doctors are responsible for it, because they have more insight than the patients, so they should gather sound evidence to back their decision, and yes, either a doctor or a therapist should offer guidance to the patient if needed. And there is not enough of that insight and thinking and the medical staff just want to either gatekeep completely or give hormones to everyone without questions, underaged individuals included. 

 

On 3/28/2020 at 2:56 PM, Emery. said:

Ah, I’m on the completely other end of things than said individuals who come to terms with womanhood.

 

Both these points are talked about in this video below. Kalvin, a trans man (FtM), invites Elle, a detrans woman (FtMtF), onto his channel to discuss trans topics. I think Elle's videos and posts are in general much more easy to relate to for trans people, compared to most others in the detrans communities, as she still has interest in engaging with the transgender community, including controversial figures. To me at least, it's very clear these two young people have had very similar experiences and it's not "completely other end of things".

 

(video starts at about 4:30)

 

 

[Emery.]

Geez, I dislike Kalvin Garrah  He could really be less rude. He’s okay in this particular video, though. Geez, the detransitioner has a really deep voice, it can’t equal with the side effect of absent menstruation that I got at some point and a couple of other people that I know. It’s hard to confuse this voice for a female one or for a “woman with a manly voice” type of thing. 

 

I think it depends what you mean as “completely different experience”, in saying that the experience was similar or different. Like, yeah, I’m not saying those experiences can’t be similar in some ways, I mean that I personally got way too much questioning. Still, I think it’s important to share detransition stories and all kinds of experiences that don’t fit the stereotype. This is why I liked so many of your posts.  Also, I did get too much scrutiny, however, not questioning someone below 18 and not really revising their motivations for transition seems quite extreme to me in the other way. 

[Winter-Cattle]

12 minutes ago, Emery. said:

Geez, I dislike Kalvin Garrah  He could really be less rude.

I'd not come across him before today, as this video came up in my YouTube recommendations. He does come across as rude in his other videos, which I suppose is to be expected for a teenager. I really liked how the two of them got along in this video, though. He was very respectful the whole time, which brings me to...

 

12 minutes ago, Emery. said:

Geez, the detransitioner has a really deep voice

At 6:45, Kalvin mentions that Elle's voice is something that she doesn't want to be brought up. Voice, as well as facial hair are the two things detransitioned women are usually the most self-conscious about. It's something immediately apparent that little can be done about, and it means that people with intolerant views will refuse to see them as women.

 

41 minutes ago, Emery. said:

I mean that I personally got way too much questioning

I see, I had misunderstood your post. Often, people will try to distance themselves from detransitioners and their experiences by making black-and-white contrasts - saying that their experiences had been completely opposite. I see now you were talking about your experience of questioning. Elle does mention that the first therapist she saw didn't want her to transition, so she had instead seen another one, who was a gender-specific therapist who wanted her to transition, so that is opposite to many transgender experiences regarding questioning.

 

41 minutes ago, Emery. said:

Still, I think it’s important to share detransition stories and all kinds of experiences that don’t fit the stereotype

I notice that detransition stories are most often shared by people who lean to either conservative, gender-critical, or "transmed"/"truscum". I would really like to see the broader transgender community embracing these stories more, rather than dismissing them because of who has previously shared them.

[Emery.]

15 minutes ago, Winter-Cattle said:

and it means that people with intolerant views will refuse to see them as women.

Geez, I feel really sorry about that. 

 

This treating things as black-and-white is evil. It gets so many people thrown under the bus. 

 

On a tangent, I don’t feel like I fit in in the transgender community either. I guess I would fit in the most with butch lesbians, however, butch lesbians talk a lot about being lesbians, and I’m bi. Also, they identify as women quite strongly, they would be offended if you called them manly. I would fit in with them in the sense that I’m masculine and I’m not ashamed of it, and I don’t feel much suffering. And I prefer to be treated like a dude, because this is what I identify with. I’m all happy and rainbows if you call me manly  The dominant narrative in the trans community, however, seems to be that of dysphoria, not being who you are, experiencing much distress, especially about your body, and people for whom dysphoria is dominant rather than this drive to express yourself in a way that makes you feel comfortable. So I don’t resonate with that, and I rather identify with men, not the trans community, but I had a time when I needed to understand myself and there is a bunch of other things I needed from the community at different times. 

 

So people who don’t fit stereotypes, be damned  Hm. I might fit a stereotype, though. I might just be a dated model of trans. In old sources, a trans woman had to be feminine and a trans man masculine. (This model isn’t without issues, obviously)

[Winter-Cattle]

1 hour ago, Emery. said:

Also, they identify as women quite strongly, they would be offended if you called them manly

I'm not sure that's universal. As I'm asexual I have not sought out lesbian communities, so I have limited knowledge on what the general consensus is. However, it seems most detransitioned/desisted women are lesbians, and they are fairly often quite proudly masculine/manly about things such as their clothing or hair choices.

 

1 hour ago, Emery. said:

I might just be a dated model of trans. In old sources, a trans woman had to be feminine and a trans man masculine. (This model isn’t without issues, obviously)

When I identified as trans, I was definitely influenced most by the "you need dysphoria to be trans", old-school transsexual model. I considered myself a masculine man who got along with men better than any other group of people. I didn't see any validity at all in nonbinary identities until after I had desisted. I don't know about now, but there were definitely sectors of the trans community several years ago where that dated model of trans was considered to be the most accurate.

[Emery.]

This is actually a quite common case that someone who is born female and is masculine or male and feminine feels pressured to transition and later realises this wasn’t for them. It’s important to be comfortable with yourself, not only follow the group. I sort of relate to it, because I don’t want to take hormones and have surgeries, but people would be pushing it or they tell you that you can’t be yourself or be masculine/feminine in other ways. 

[Winter-Cattle]

1 minute ago, Emery. said:

This is actually a quite common case that someone who is born female and is masculine or male and feminine feels pressured to transition and later realises this wasn’t for them. It’s important to be comfortable with yourself, not only follow the group. I sort of relate to it, because I don’t want to take hormones and have surgeries, but people would be pushing it or they tell you that you can’t be yourself or be masculine/feminine in other ways. 

For me, I did not like any of my secondary sex characteristics ever since I first developed them. When I learnt as a young adult that I could remove all these unwanted changes, plus develop male secondary sex characteristics, this sounded ideal. I became focused/obsessed with everything I didn't like about my body the more I learnt and heard from others. I definitely did want hormones and especially surgeries, I was just too afraid to be open with anyone about what I was feeling. Removing myself from the transgender community eventually left me with that initial resentment I started with, rather than feeling suicidal or dysphoric. I recently watched a video with two AFAB transgender people where they talked about their dysphoria, and I could not finish watching it because it was causing me the dysphoric feelings I used to have.

 

I didn't feel as though I was following a group at the time, it genuinely felt like this is what I needed. I don't believe I would have become quite so obsessed if I had not felt that time was working against me and that I needed to start transitioning now or it would be hopeless. And, similar to what you said, if it wasn't insisted that you can't be your birth sex if you feel dysphoric. I often see comments that detransitioners/desisters are just trans people in denial, if they recognise our dysphoria as real. Otherwise, we're "transtrenders" or "concern trolls".

[Emery.]

I don’t have body dysphoria and didn’t feel it before either, so *shrug* Of course someone will jump at me now for calling myself trans, but I honestly don’t care. If they want to call someone who is happy living as male despite having female bits not trans, good luck with that. 

 

2 hours ago, Winter-Cattle said:

I didn't feel as though I was following a group at the time, it genuinely felt like this is what I needed.

It’s also not an uncommon experience. 

 

I also feel like the trans community encourages that kind of... jumping on a bandwagon. They have to make it into a contest of who is more trans instead of truly supporting each other. I mean, there are a lot of places like that which are more about competition and attention seeking than actual support. On one hand, telling people that they don’t belong perpetuates feeling like you have to do certain things to belong, but on the other hand, giving too much of the goodies can encourage people to doing something they don’t want to do. So it’s a tough problem. And it’s a worse bandwagon than, say, the community of heavy metal fans, because of the consequences of medical intervention. From yet another perspective, very often the people who really are trans don’t behave in this bandwagon way, prefer to take their time, think it through, and just get shit for that, for doubting themselves, so this promotion of bandwagony behaviour hurts both sides.

 

However, I think that behaviour results from transphobia in many cases, I have a friend who started to behave this way and encourage that sort of behaviour after being denied transition over and over... And I don’t mean by that that someone actually talked to her about it, it was a simple “no, wait a few years and then maybe”. It’s just... that’s bad, that hurts people. It’s a transphobic extreme. We deduced together that this doctor she went to would want to talk to me forever before allowing to wear trousers or to identify as a man. She told another friend of ours to detransition, because she is nonbinary. It’s absurd and sick. 

 

There is yet another thing, I feel like many of those bandwagony behaving people aren’t really trans, they are on some hype instead. The real trans are critical about their own feelings and often don’t care that they’re doing something stupid. So many of these people who are hyped disappear from the community before transitioning in any way and you never hear from them again. Hence, maybe the pressure comes from the group that is in a very large fraction ... wrong. Different situations in life show a similar pattern.

 

Oh, and there is a reason why they prescribe MtF medication so easily. It doesn’t have permanent effects if taken shortly, but it weeds out the men who want to be women because they are sexually attracted to the idea. For similar reasons, doctors like to treat depression pharmacologically before deciding what to do further with transition. 

 

Tbh I also can’t resist the feeling that detransitioned people are just in denial  But hey, it’s entirely up to the individual in question how they deal with their ... um, predicament. (I mean the brain not matching the bits) And I mean that in general. It has been proven that gays have opposite sex type brains, for example. The reality is, people have different ways of dealing with that.  ... I also don’t think people should transition if they don’t have that body/brain issue, because it would do far more harm than good. And I’m not talking about nonbinary folk, for them there is no right body or wrong body. Often there is the most noise about something that noise shouldn’t be made about. 

[Emery.]

About the lesbians, hm, lesbians identify as women or at least as agender or between genders, not as men. So the tendency is, most of them would rather not frame themselves as manly but as being assertive or strong or edgy or handsome or something like that and wouldn’t be hunting for complements along the lines of being a man. But this is my perspective, and if someone tells me I’m masculine, I would be happy they noticed what I experience. Well, um, there is a difference between gender identities even if they are not backed up by a desire to change something physically. And even though this difference might seem subtle, it causes a clash large enough to not get along. The lesbians would be all about women’s power, the trans man would just not feel it or even feel attacked by it in the worse case  so they’d argue in favour of men. Minuscule but enough to loathe each other  and scream “predatory pervert” and “you have hysteria, feminazi”.  Conclusion: lesbians are women, psychologically speaking, and trans men are men, men don’t belong in women’s spaces, so trans men don’t belong in lesbian spaces. Ah, gay drama.  

[Guest]

 

  Hundreds of young transgender people are seeking help to return to their original sex, a woman who is setting up a charity has told Sky News.

 

https://news.sky.com/story/hundreds-of-young-trans-people-seeking-help-to-return-to-original-sex-11827740

 

This is a real issue and it's sick the way so many people (trans and otherwise) are so quick to jump on the detransitioning hate and denial bandwagon.

[Winter-Cattle]

11 hours ago, Emery. said:

I don’t have body dysphoria and didn’t feel it before either, so *shrug* Of course someone will jump at me now for calling myself trans, but I honestly don’t care. If they want to call someone who is happy living as male despite having female bits not trans, good luck with that. 

I think it's unlikely that someone on this forum would jump at you considering the way in leans, but you would have definitely been attacked for being a "transtrender" in the communities I used to be a part of.

 

11 hours ago, Emery. said:

before allowing to wear trousers

Am I misunderstanding? In most places in the world, it has been very normal for women to wear trousers/pants for a while now. They're all I personally wear.

 

11 hours ago, Emery. said:

Oh, and there is a reason why they prescribe MtF medication so easily. It doesn’t have permanent effects if taken shortly, but it weeds out the men who want to be women because they are sexually attracted to the idea.

Having read through many detransition stories, including those by MtFtM detrans men, this does not seem like an accurate statement to make.

 

11 hours ago, Emery. said:

Tbh I also can’t resist the feeling that detransitioned people are just in denial

I'm really not sure what can be done about this prevalent attitude. I don't believe I've ever seen AFAB nonbinary people with dysphoria, who have re-identified this way after formally being FTM and perhaps stopped transitioning, referred to "trans men in denial", but somehow desisting the transgender identity fully is completely invalid?

 

9 hours ago, Emery. said:

lesbians identify as women or at least as agender or between genders, not as men

As I've come across a lot of gender-critical-leaning people, I can also tell you that quite a lot of people, including a lot of lesbians, reject the whole idea of gender identity. This is naturally a controversial topic, but I do feel as though I've benefited from this viewpoint.

 

9 hours ago, Emery. said:

if someone tells me I’m masculine, I would be happy they noticed what I experience

When I desisted my masculine man identity, this did not turn me into a feminine woman. I would also be happy when called masculine, I am just no longer ashamed and/or repulsed when called feminine.

 

1 hour ago, Not Pan Ficto. said:

https://news.sky.com/story/hundreds-of-young-trans-people-seeking-help-to-return-to-original-sex-11827740

 

This is a real issue and it's sick the way so many people (trans and otherwise) are so quick to jump on the detransitioning hate and denial bandwagon.

I feel as though the stories of detransitioners/desisters wouldn't be so weaponised by people with transphobic views if the transgender community actually embraced them, rather than dismissed them. We do exist, and we're people, not only statistics. Citing the same "0.27%" figure from a study repeatedly against detransitioners, while being critical of the "40%" suicide figure from a study being used against transgender people, is hypocrisy. We may be a "rare exception", but then so are transgender people in the first place.

[Guest]

37 minutes ago, Winter-Cattle said:

feel as though the stories of detransitioners/desisters wouldn't be so weaponised by people with transphobic views if the transgender community actually embraced them, rather than dismissed them. We do exist, and we're people, not only statistics. Citing the same "0.27%" figure from a study repeatedly against detransitioners, while being critical of the "40%" suicide figure from a study being used against transgender people, is hypocrisy. We may be a "rare exception", but then so are transgender people in the first place.

Yeah these people are suffering terribly (a suffering that all trans people should understand!!) yet they're mocked, ridiculed, hated, to the extent they become afraid to speak out about what has happened to them!! It's so sad. I've seen a lot of nasty, dismissive comments in this thread alone, directed at a teenager no less!

 

This is not to say people shouldn't transition (absolutely not saying that) but it's not something doctors etc should ever rush. Here in NZ, the govt pays for it.. so you can start pretty quickly. Many people arent made aware of the suffering of de-transitioners, and at least should be given the opportunity to know that it does happen so they can weigh that up themselves before jumping into anything. All we ever hear are the positives of transitioning (which are awesome!!) but people considering it should be made aware of this other side, so they can know the possible consequences and be prepared for them. It isn't all flowers and roses, and it would technically be BETTER for the trans community to be fully aware of this because it may mean people take a longer time to consider transitioning, meaning less de-transitioners in the long run! Isn't that a win for everyone?? 😕

 

 

[Emery.]

1 hour ago, Winter-Cattle said:

Am I misunderstanding? In most places in the world, it has been very normal for women to wear trousers/pants for a while now. They're all I personally wear.

Yes, it was meant to sound ridiculous.

 

1 hour ago, Winter-Cattle said:

I don't believe I've ever seen AFAB nonbinary people with dysphoria, who have re-identified this way after formally being FTM and perhaps stopped transitioning, referred to "trans men in denial", but somehow desisting the transgender identity fully is completely invalid?

Well, it’s just a feeling people get. Just because something seems to be a certain way to someone, doesn’t mean it has to be true. 

 

Quote

I would also be happy when called masculine,

Don’t you have any problems with it from other women? I do. Hm. Maybe it’s that you don’t actively desire it and don’t care for it. 

 

1 hour ago, Winter-Cattle said:

I don't believe I've ever seen AFAB nonbinary people with dysphoria, who have re-identified this way after formally being FTM

Yeah, because does it matter in everyday life how you identify internally? You can dress however you want and express yourself through other means, you can have a gender neutral nickname when speaking of what transition is said to involve. But everyone can have a gender neutral nickname. The internal identity has really little impact unless you choose to transition to the other sex. And this is why people say that enbies are attention seekers. For many people the non-binary identity acts as a stepping stone to the trans identity, and they wouldn’t identify as non-binary if not for the drive to not be their birth sex. 

[Rynn]

2 minutes ago, Emery. said:

Yeah, because does it matter in everyday life how you identify internally? You can dress however you want and express yourself through other means, you can have a gender neutral nickname when speaking of what transition is said to involve. But everyone can have a gender neutral nickname. The internal identity has really little impact unless you choose to transition to the other sex. And this is why people say that enbies are attention seekers. For many people the non-binary identity acts as a stepping stone to the trans identity, and they wouldn’t identify as non-binary if not for the drive to not be their birth sex. 

Um.. ouch?

I hope I'm missing some sarcasm clues here, because a bunch of that is not true.

[Emery.]

Sorry if that sounded harsh, I don’t mean that there is something wrong with being non-binary. I just notice what others think, and this is what I wanted to say, it’s by no means my own opinion. 

 

Or do you mean that gender identity has impact? I haven’t noticed that personally. I mean, outside of guilt tripping yourself about identifying a certain way. And outside a fraction of people who actually care about others saying the right complements. 

[Winter-Cattle]

 

1 hour ago, Not Pan Ficto. said:

Many people arent made aware of the suffering of de-transitioners, and at least should be given the opportunity to know that it does happen so they can weigh that up themselves before jumping into anything

I fully agree with everything you just wrote. I think, however, it may be more positive to frame it in a way that transition isn't the answer to everyone's dysphoria, rather than using the stories almost like a scare tactic.

 

25 minutes ago, Emery. said:

Don’t you have any problems with it from other women?

Not at all, no, unless it's intended to be an insult.

 

25 minutes ago, Emery. said:

Yeah, because does it matter in everyday life how you identify internally?

When I identified as a man, while being in the body of a woman, I had suicidal ideation in everyday life. I realise this is not a universal experience, but for a lot of people, their internal identity matters a lot. Having the internal identity of male for several years is why I consider myself to be "desisted" rather than "cis".

 

26 minutes ago, Emery. said:

For many people the non-binary identity acts as a stepping stone to the trans identity 

Is that really the case - that many people identify as nonbinary before becoming binary trans? I think I've only come across people who have always had a nonbinary identity since finding out about the term, or binary trans people who have re-identified as a nonbinary identity.

[Rynn]

35 minutes ago, Emery. said:

Or do you mean that gender identity has impact?

You're right that it often has no impact on how people treat you, especially if you don't tell anyone about it, but on your perspective on the world, as well as your mental health, it has a pretty big impact. You've got to live with your brain every day, so I would say that is also part of daily life. People still treating you as your birth sex is pretty hurtful, so just because society doesn't take us seriously, doesn't mean that our identities aren't serious.

 

The 'stepping stone to the trans identity' thing is also pretty wrong. Trans-ness is not (fully) identifying with the gender you were assigned at birth, so that already includes nonbinary people. Of course it still differs per individual whether they identify with the word trans. 

To me it's fairly offensive to say that being nonbinary in its own right is insignificant if it doesn't lead to being binary transgender.

  

58 minutes ago, Emery. said:

and they wouldn’t identify as non-binary if not for the drive to not be their birth sex. 

And this one, for some, gender euphoria is the driving factor in transition, rather than gender dysphoria. I don't want to erase those people.

 

58 minutes ago, Emery. said:

And this is why people say that enbies are attention seekers. 

And yet most enbies are closeted.

In addition, a high number of them have social anxiety, so attention is the last thing they want.

The same people will say gay people are attention seekers just for mentioning their same sex partner once. I don't appreciate being asked to disappear from the public sphere.

 

We're just trying to live and avoid dysphoria man. Sometimes coming out as nb can prevent a bunch of dysphoria. At those times, I might choose to come out. Most of the time coming out will just start conversations you don't want to have, and won't significantly change the daily amount of dysphoria you live with. In those cases, I don't come out. It's a cost-benefit analysis, really.

 

35 minutes ago, Emery. said:

I mean, outside of guilt tripping yourself about identifying a certain way.

I'm not sure what you meant here?

[Emery.]

10 minutes ago, Laurann said:

The 'stepping stone to the trans identity' thing is also pretty wrong. Trans-ness is not (fully) identifying with the gender you were assigned at birth, so that already includes nonbinary people. Of course it still differs per individual whether they identify with the word trans.

Oof. It seems I worded it wrongly. I by no means think that being non-binary isn’t valid or that it’s equal to being cis or that it’s the case for everyone that being nb is a stepping stone or that non-binary people are just seeking attention. In no way at all do i ask you to disappear or to not come out. I also didn’t mean to imply that non-binary isn’t trans or that positive feelings can’t be a motivation for transitioning, I used a mental shortcut probably, because I talk with people about this subject quite often. I never said IT IS insignificant if it doesn’t lead to a binary transition. I said that a lot of people wouldn’t bother to be public about their gender. And that a lot of people would talk about attention seeking. Period, no implications. If anything by saying that a lot of people don’t bother about being non-binary, I meant rather that there is nothing to worry about in being non-binary in a positive way, that it’s not scary or uncommon or something negative about an individual. I assure you I meant nothing of what you mention in the last post. I might just not be subtle enough in what I said. Sorry for offending in this case.  

 

Uh, internet discussion often end up like that, because they are out of broader context. People have different situations going on in their lives and then misunderstand each other to the max, because one meant one thing and in a different person’s context it meant another thing. Frustrating. IRL such wavelength clashes are less frequent, because there is some common frame of reference. 

 

19 minutes ago, Laurann said:

I'm not sure what you meant here?

By the guilt trip I mean something like hating yourself for being gay or for wanting to transition, but about identifying a certain way. In a way that, you feel guilt about doing or thinking something essentially harmless and this feeling of guilt is the only thing about this something that is really harmful. Like in the case of feeling guilty for being gay. 

[KiraS]

1 hour ago, Emery. said:

Yeah, because does it matter in everyday life how you identify internally?

Yes it does. And the consequences of experiencing minority stress and having to pass for safety and economic survival have been discussed for over a century now. (Seriously, pick up Passing by Nela Larsen for a study of this in fiction.) Passing involves a fair bit of paranoia and hyper vigilance that's simply exhausting. 

 

2 hours ago, Emery. said:

You can dress however you want and express yourself through other means, you can have a gender neutral nickname when speaking of what transition is said to involve. But everyone can have a gender neutral nickname.

This is, I think, one of those cases where AGAB does matter. Getting clocked as queer puts me at high risk of getting battered (again), sexually assaulted (again), and fired (again). My options for presenting congruent to my gender identity within my workplace are extremely limited. My partner has worn pants for almost three decades of our relationship ant that's just her style. If I don't wear pants (or wear the wrong kind of pants), I'm immediately considered a drag queen, tranny, and/or sexual fetishist. 

[KiraS]

1 hour ago, Winter-Cattle said:

I fully agree with everything you just wrote. I think, however, it may be more positive to frame it in a way that transition isn't the answer to everyone's dysphoria, rather than using the stories almost like a scare tactic.

 

Which, curiously enough, is what trans communities actually say about the matter.