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BBC - "NHS gender clinic 'should have challenged me more' over transition"


Homer

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Studies on both suicidality among trans people and the efficacy of gender-affirming health care have been replicated dozens of times through peer-reviewed studies with substantial sample sizes and strong sample selection methods.

 

In contrast, a collection of self-affirming anecdotes, (a source of information with inherent bias) do not strike me as sufficient grounds to justify dozens of states passing legislation banning gender-affirming healthcare and legal transition. Which is the situation we're facing now. 

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Winter-Cattle
59 minutes ago, KiraS said:

In contrast, a collection of self-affirming anecdotes

I mean, there have been studies on transgender regret - although I realise this is not the same as being a detransitioner. The one I come across most often is the study of 22,725 patients, of which 62 had regret:

http://dx.doi.org/10.1097/01.GOX.0000547077.23299.00

 

There are other studies used to dismiss detransitioners (even though it's not the same thing), but I would have to try to find them. I imagine you have likely come across them yourself, though. I am aware of a study that is ongoing that is looking more at the experiences of detransitioners, including with healthcare providers, but I am not an eligible participant due to my location. So hopefully at some point soon, this will not be limited to anecdotes online.

 

59 minutes ago, KiraS said:

do not strike me as sufficient grounds to justify dozens of states passing legislation banning gender-affirming healthcare and legal transition

Where have I ever advocated for that?

 

59 minutes ago, KiraS said:

Which is the situation we're facing now.

Why is this the fault of detransitioners?

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Why is this the fault of detransitioners?

Since you were getting on my ass about it a couple of pages back about actually reading the article, I have to ask, have YOU even read the title of the article?

 

You do realize "they should have challenged me more" basically means "they should challenge everyone more", right?

 

I doubt they're saying this is the fault of "detransitioners"; just the ones that are being vocal about it in the way they are in this article.

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Winter-Cattle
14 minutes ago, Philip027 said:

You do realize "they should have challenged me more" basically means "they should challenge everyone more", right?

Of course, but that's not exactly Keira's point. You do realise there is a huge difference between "more investigation is needed on trans-identifying children/teens" (or even the clickbait "they should have challenged (teenagers) more") and KiraS's statement of "gender-affirming healthcare and legal transition should be banned"?

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First of all, how is that "clickbait"?  It's pretty clearly what they said:

 

"I should have been challenged on the proposals or the claims that I was making for myself," she said. "And I think that would have made a big difference as well. If I was just challenged on the things I was saying."

 

I'm not too sure you know what the definition of clickbait is.  As far as titles go, this one is pretty on-point.

 

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You do realise there is a huge difference between "more investigation is needed on trans-identifying children/teens" (or even the clickbait "they should have challenged (teenagers) more") and KiraS's statement of "gender-affirming healthcare and legal transition should be banned"?

What's the point in trying to discern the difference between these two if the end result is the same?

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Winter-Cattle
2 minutes ago, Philip027 said:

First of all, how is that "clickbait"?  It's pretty clearly what they said:

 

"I should have been challenged on the proposals or the claims that I was making for myself," she said. "And I think that would have made a big difference as well. If I was just challenged on the things I was saying."

 

I'm not too sure you know what the definition of clickbait is.  As far as titles go, this one is pretty on-point.

It attracts more attention to the article, by focusing on a specific quote taken out of context. By reading the article, it's clear that she is not advocating for provoking teenagers, rather for there to be more investigations.

 

2 minutes ago, Philip027 said:

What's the point in trying to discern the difference between these two if the end result is the same?

Because the end result is in no way the same. Advocating for improvements in healthcare standards for trans-identifying people is not the same as removing them of basic human rights.

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Lonemathsytoothbrushthief
26 minutes ago, Philip027 said:

I doubt they're saying this is the fault of "detransitioners"; just the ones that are being vocal about it in the way they are in this article.

Exactly. The thing is, I resent this idea that we're somehow automatically closed minded around detransitioners. I had my phase of going through videos of some detransitioners speaking honestly, as I said in a previous comment, that stopped with some of them talking to benjamin boyce who is a slimy horrible transphobe for a career basically. Other trans people likely still wouldn't mind talking to a detransitioner if asked, but the ones who are popular are choosing to ally with transphobes for a reason which is that 1) they're cisgender, and 2) it pays to be with middle class terfs who edit british newspapers, in a way which it doesn't to appear on a riley dennis video or something.

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It attracts more attention to the article, by focusing on a specific quote taken out of context. By reading the article, it's clear that she is not advocating for provoking teenagers, rather for there to be more investigations.

Ehhh, potato, potahto.

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Ah, hell knows with all that... Maybe not on this site, but I’ve met people with very different stories and attitudes to transition, and of all ages. Different things would be good for each of them. For some, it would be more questioning, for some quite the opposite. So hell knows. 

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Lonemathsytoothbrushthief

For me it would be probably getting denied healthcare...for some suicidal trans people it's "we would treat you, but you need to be mentally stable first". For some broke trans people it's "You must live as your new gender at least a year" related delays as they struggle to come out at work. Don't corrupt therapy for the purposes of preventing cis people from taking hormones. Gender therapists exist to help a trans person come to understand themselves and their transition related needs, as well as to help their loved ones understand what they need and why they need it, but instead we use them as gatekeepers. It's even worse in other parts of europe.

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Winter-Cattle
9 hours ago, Philip027 said:

Ehhh, potato, potahto.

It is not the same thing. If her story is true, what happened to her seems to be in violation of the existing standards of care for trans-identifying patients already in place. I'd try to summarise it, but with my English being what it is, it may be best for you to read through them yourself:

 

https://www.wpath.org/publications/soc

 

@Lonemathsytoothbrushthief I'm not sure what to do? You asked to end the conversation because you find it triggering, but you are continuing to participate? Do you want to keep commenting, but for me to ignore your comments (which is what I was doing until now)? Or should I address what you're saying (I do have responses to them)?

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It is not the same thing.

Again, I don't see the point in nitpicking over the difference when the end result is the same.

 

"By reading the article, it's clear that she is not advocating for provoking teenagers, rather for there to be more investigations."

Same difference.  Call it whatever you want; either way you're advocating for giving trans people a harder time than they have already.

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Winter-Cattle
33 minutes ago, Philip027 said:

Again, I don't see the point in nitpicking over the difference when the end result is the same.

But the end result is not the same. I'm not sure if you're deliberately missing the point, or whether I am unable to make it clear due to my English? The studies done on the effectiveness of transition for trans-identifying patients have come from clinics that follow this guidance or similar, where the patient is evaluated. The detransitioners seem to be coming from places where this guidance is not followed.

 

The end result is for the existing guidance, based on years of studies, to be followed. This is very different to removing transgender people of their access to healthcare.

 

33 minutes ago, Philip027 said:

Same difference.  Call it whatever you want; either way you're advocating for giving trans people a harder time than they have already.

Do you disagree with the guidance put in place for clinicians to follow to ensure the best outcome for their patients? Do you believe this guidance should not be followed? I'm not actually sure what it is you want.

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