Identifying as female, but not as a woman

[Winter-Cattle]

On 2/22/2020 at 5:03 PM, cAROlyn said:

Is there anyone besides myself who identifies as female and chooses not to label themselves as a woman? That might seem contradictory, but the reason I don't like the label 'woman' for myself is because it carries many social and historical connotations that I don't see as applicable to me as an aroace. Also, I associate the word with sexual maturity, which I have none of, and traditional gender roles, which I automatically reject by being interested in STEM, not wanting a partner, and having no hesitation about raising my hand in a class that is about 70% guys (which describes many of my classes).

Women have long been fighting, and continue to fight, the social, historical, and traditional roles that are applied to us - but I think most people would agree that feminists and anyone else fighting these are still women. I've always been interested in STEM, and spent years of my education being the only woman in my class - taught by men, with only male peers. I never developed a libido/sexuality, I've never had a partner, I don't have children, etc. I don't see what any of these stereotypes have to do with being a woman anymore than they do to the term "female".

[Acing It]

On 2/22/2020 at 5:03 PM, cAROlyn said:

Is there anyone besides myself who identifies as female and chooses not to label themselves as a woman? That might seem contradictory, but the reason I don't like the label 'woman' for myself is because it carries many social and historical connotations that I don't see as applicable to me as an aroace. Also, I associate the word with sexual maturity, which I have none of, and traditional gender roles, which I automatically reject by being interested in STEM, not wanting a partner, and having no hesitation about raising my hand in a class that is about 70% guys (which describes many of my classes).

I seem to be a bit older than you but I definitely recognise this. Not strange at all nor a contradiction, at least not to me and you it seems 🙂

[Isaac]

Has anybody considered one can be cis-genderless and so identify as female but not as woman. I identify as male but man is not my favorite term.

[Gwaeron]

I like this topic. Maybe young females are often referred to as “girls” until a certain (implied) sexual maturity, when they become “women”? I’m probably too old to be a “girl” now, but “woman”, taken in this societal context sounds offputting even if I’m ok with what’s between my legs by birth.

 

On the other hand, gender behaviour stereotypes/expectations should just be abolished I think. Let me enjoy physics and cool jets and whatnot regardless of my private parts.

[Phantasmal Fingers]

@KiraS I would say that the Four Noble Truths acknowledge the experience of Dukkha. And there are plenty of people like me who see the interpretation of Dukkha as suffering per se as inappropriate and not reflective of our own experience: it's more like Monday morning - it comes and goes on a relative mind level, but then again so does Friday evening.

 

To me politics is a superficial stuckness in conditioning. So relatively one might be stuck but ultimately one never was. To me the question is - does one just know this or does one also realise it? 

[Phantasmal Fingers]

On 2/24/2020 at 11:55 PM, Laurann said:

So I read this, and was going to disagree silently, because how could I prove that something I experience is because of societal influence? But then I took a shower and when I stepped out I saw myself in the mirror and, as usual, had an instinctive surprised 'wtf is this' reaction to what I looked like, and I just really cannot believe that that's anything but innate. Anecdotal, sure, take it as you will.

 

Wouldn't this simply be body dysphoria and social dysphoria then?

In answer to your second point, yes - why not? 

 

In answer to what precedes it - well, if that's your experience you'll just have to roll with it, I suppose. You would be unwise not to. But isn't there already another level of self awareness present here - from which you seem to me to speak - when you come across to me as saying, 'I'm stuck but I don' t like this. And I know it can't really be this way.' Don't you want to transcend this? You come across to me as wanting to. Don't you already have the leverage to do this? 

 

To me, in that sense, what you say sounds like the beginning of something better, rather than an unnecessary ending in an unsatisfactory, unwanted present. 

[Rynn]

@Moderne Jazzhanden I'm not sure if this is what you are suggesting, but I don't think I can philosophize my way out of dysphoria. I'mma just go with the traditional cutting bits off route to deal with that.

[Phantasmal Fingers]

😞

[Guest]

On 2/22/2020 at 12:03 PM, cAROlyn said:

Is there anyone besides myself who identifies as female and chooses not to label themselves as a woman? That might seem contradictory, but the reason I don't like the label 'woman' for myself is because it carries many social and historical connotations that I don't see as applicable to me as an aroace. Also, I associate the word with sexual maturity, which I have none of, and traditional gender roles, which I automatically reject by being interested in STEM, not wanting a partner, and having no hesitation about raising my hand in a class that is about 70% guys (which describes many of my classes).

Nail, meet head.

 

 I’m female and I always cringe when people call me a woman. The word woman has become so sexualized, and it’s got a lot of baggage. I am a repulsed ace, I’m adamantly CF, and I think gender roles are stupid. There are no connotations of womanhood that overlap with my life besides for biological traits, and my blood boils when people try to force an overlap, or suggest that an overlap is “good.”

 

I’ve gotten into plenty of arguments with my dad about this up. If I lift something heavy I am told,  “don’t do that ladies shouldn’t lift things.” If i cuss I get, “don’t do that ladies shouldn’t swear.” If I say something about changing my oil I got “ladies shouldn’t get oil on their hands, it’s unclean.” It it very frustrating. Especially the cussing and oil thing. 

 

Spoiler

Like my “bad language” is just saying things fuck and damn. My dad’s and brothers bad language usually involves certain anatomical words, and talking about, I don’t even want to say it b****** and stuff. 

 

Mind boggling that my dad thinks fuck and damn are distasteful but talking about disgusting anatomical stuff and sexual stuff isn’t.

 

As to the oil, that’s laughable. I’m not drinking the stuff I’m emptying it into a pan. Besides when I worked in the restaurants I’ve seen oil dirtier than that IN FRYING VATS. Now that is unclean. PSA to anyone that might be in my area, the charts on the wall are ignored and the oil is drained well past black. 

 

Besides changing my own oil makes sense. Why waste $20 to take it someplace where it might not even get done? {There have been inside edition segments and stuff on this}. For that $20 I could have 4 coffees, <= 10 songs on iTunes, a month of prime, etc.

[Rynn]

13 hours ago, i.r3beka said:

I’ve gotten into plenty of arguments with my dad about this up. If I lift something heavy I am told,  “don’t do that ladies shouldn’t lift things.” If i cusses I get, “don’t do that ladies shouldn’t swear.” If I say something about changing my oil I got “ladies shouldn’t get oil on their hands, it’s unclean.” It it very frustrating. Especially the cussing and oil thing. 

Damn I'd get up in arms about that too.

 

Yesterday my dad told my brother that he should start drinking beer because real men drink beer, and the rest of us, including my brother, just laughed at him.

My dad was half joking anyway. He knew he wouldn't get away with that shit in our family.

 

So yeah, point being, I can't imagine what it's like to not have that support. In my case, my dad's the odd one out, and the feminists are in the majority.

[KiraS]

Curiously, the onus of responsibility is always on trans people to philosophize our way out of presenting the way we do, and not on cis people to refrain from gender-policing abuse. 

 

If it truly is all the same, then why is my most comfortable clothing inappropriate for my legal sex, and my most comfortable language and pronouns such an inconvenience? 

[Holly Skye]

Yes.  I'm genderfluid and it feels better to describe my female aspect as a girl rather than a woman.

[banana monkey]

There was a post similar to this a while ago. (cant remember when/where - may be worth searching for?) I remember posting in it at the time. 

 

I always feel odd in a bad way when I hear myself referred to as a lady (for example if a parent tells child in shop to "let the lady past"). I used to cringe but am more used to it now. I think it would be worse if I was referred to as woman but you dont hear that word used in such a context (I've never heard anyone say "let the woman past", "that woman was first" etc - its always lady that is used). However, although I occasionally think I may be non binary its slightly unlikely because I experience no discomfort around being referred to as female such that I feel the need to find a different word or correct people. I'm ok with being referred to as female. I have yet to be able to find a word that would fit instead of lady or woman as an alternative. Person may work in some contexts but it seems a bit odd for someone to say "x let the person past" or "say thankyou to the person" plus I dont really want to correct a complete stranger in a supermarket!! 

 

oh sorry, I forgot to add the complete point of this post which is to say that I dont think my aversion to being called lady or woman has anything to do with old social constructs or connotations. I dont tend to pay attention to those. I cant work out why I feel this way. 

[RandomPotato02]

I feel the same, although it's less connected with gender roles for me. I mean, I haven't experienced a lot of gender-role-like sexism around here, so yeah.

But I do connect being "a woman" with sexuality, especially because of my language. In German, "virgin" is "Jungfrau" (literally "young woman") and although that's kind of stupid, I feel like calling someone a woman is sexualizing her?

But apart from that, children don't show a lot of sexual dimorphism yet (at least with clothes on), but when you're talking about a "woman", you're taking about someone with a female figure and stuff which I don't want to be. I'm non-binary, more on the feminine side, which is why I have no problem with being referred to as a girl, but I have a problem with being referred to a woman.

So.. yeah. That's my story, at least.

[PoeciMeta]

On 4/15/2020 at 1:59 PM, RandomPotato02 said:

But I do connect being "a woman" with sexuality, especially because of my language. In German, "virgin" is "Jungfrau" (literally "young woman") and although that's kind of stupid, I feel like calling someone a woman is sexualizing her?

This. In mine, ''woman'' and ''wife'' are the same word. It feels rather weird to see that ''woman'' can be preceded by ''my'', and it certainly has that connotation. 

[naakka]

I do. For me, "female" has just became a shorter way of saying "gender assigned as birth", even if I know it isn't quite accurate. I'm just lazy like that. In my mind, "female" describes more biological sex-related functions of your body, while "woman" talks more about gender (neurological sex/ social roles).

Ps. I'm a bit jealous English has two completely separate terms for female and woman. We basically just have one word, "nainen", and lead from it "naispuolinen" (female) which still has the "nainen" in it. You can't escape womanhood in Finnish xDx

[Emery.]

On 2/23/2020 at 3:21 PM, Star Lion said:

I’m aroace as well but it doesn’t stop me from being a man. I think it’s counterproductive to say that because you don’t fit the gender roles, you aren’t a woman. There’s nothing wrong with a feminine man or a masculine woman. There’s nothing wrong with a man who respects women or a woman who doesn’t wear makeup and weave. There’s nothing wrong with a man who isn’t attracted to women or a woman who isn’t attracted to men. We should be reinforcing that people don’t have to follow stereotypes and all of these ridiculous societal conditionings/expectations, not encouraging the idea that these are what makes us men and women

I call bullshit on that. Trans people don’t hurt anyone. There is certain sexual dimorphism and people like you try to devoid trans people of a way to live more comfortably, to assert their needs at all. Let me use a comparison: it’s like denying women the access to birth control, because it’s politically incorrect to say that two sexes exist. Or denying intersex people treatment of their conditions because someone doesn’t want to acknowledge such a condition exists at all because it contradicts their backwards world view. People are allowed to be transgender (which isn’t a feeling at all - and gender dysphoria is a reasonable reaction to life circumstances) and everyone who is even slightly on the spectrum of being transgender also has rights to expressing their experiences and asserting their needs, even though they aren’t standard ones. 

 

This “deconstruction of meaning” leads to void of nirvana only, nowhere practical. I could identify as a dog, but what meaning does this carry? This whole discourse that developed around binary and non-binary trans identities is bollocks. 

 

What surprises me is trans people dismissing others’ experiences as not valid and not okay to express. Someone is near the cis end of the gender spectrum but not completely cis? They want to express that? Cool then, not like “you need sufficient dysphoria or body dysphoria to be trans”. You know what, only now those people will get dysphoria by not having access to things they need because someone told them to shut up because they are not trans enough or will constantly bite their tongue and suffer from anxiety and depression. Trans people should understand what it’s like to get the short end of the stick and shouldn’t do it to others on the spectrum. The OP has enough insight into their own psychology to know why they feel a certain way about gender? Should we penalise insight? I bet not! 

[RandomPotato02]

1 hour ago, Emery. said:

What surprises me is trans people dismissing others’ experiences as not valid and not okay to express. Someone is near the cis end of the gender spectrum but not completely cis? They want to express that? Cool then, not like “you need sufficient dysphoria or body dysphoria to be trans”. You know what, only now those people will get dysphoria by not having access to things they need because someone told them to shut up because they are not trans enough or will constantly bite their tongue and suffer from anxiety and depression.

signed.

I wish it were easier to express your non-binary gender, like, most people don't even know what that is and if they do, they usually think people are making up things to feel special. We're not, thanks for asking.

[letusdeleteouraccounts]

10 hours ago, Emery. said:

I call bullshit on that. Trans people don’t hurt anyone. There is certain sexual dimorphism and people like you try to devoid trans people of a way to live more comfortably, to assert their needs at all. Let me use a comparison: it’s like denying women the access to birth control, because it’s politically incorrect to say that two sexes exist. Or denying intersex people treatment of their conditions because someone doesn’t want to acknowledge such a condition exists at all because it contradicts their backwards world view. People are allowed to be transgender (which isn’t a feeling at all - and gender dysphoria is a reasonable reaction to life circumstances) and everyone who is even slightly on the spectrum of being transgender also has rights to expressing their experiences and asserting their needs, even though they aren’t standard ones. 

 

This “deconstruction of meaning” leads to void of nirvana only, nowhere practical. I could identify as a dog, but what meaning does this carry? This whole discourse that developed around binary and non-binary trans identities is bollocks. 

 

What surprises me is trans people dismissing others’ experiences as not valid and not okay to express. Someone is near the cis end of the gender spectrum but not completely cis? They want to express that? Cool then, not like “you need sufficient dysphoria or body dysphoria to be trans”. You know what, only now those people will get dysphoria by not having access to things they need because someone told them to shut up because they are not trans enough or will constantly bite their tongue and suffer from anxiety and depression. Trans people should understand what it’s like to get the short end of the stick and shouldn’t do it to others on the spectrum. The OP has enough insight into their own psychology to know why they feel a certain way about gender? Should we penalise insight? I bet not! 

I don’t know what this has to do with me saying that supposedly not fitting gender roles doesn’t make you any less of a man/woman