Is it worth fighting losing battles?

[Grumpy Alien]

I have a strong set of morals by which I live my life. I don’t believe in universal morality but my core beliefs of right and wrong guide my own actions. The one thing that is very important to me that people closest to me think is “nonsense” and “a waste of effort” is that I only fight losing battles. 
 

My own mother and husband say this is pointless and go as far as getting exasperated when I end up fighting a war that can’t be won. They say I have nothing to gain from it and there is no expected change so there is no benefit from my efforts. I can’t say they’re entirely wrong but I disagree. To me, I’ve always found these the things I need to stand up for most.
 

I’m not very articulate or smart. I can’t easily explain why I feel the way I do. I’m hoping you PPS folk can elaborate on the pros and cons of standing up for something that will never change.

[Lord Jade Cross]

Well, Im an outcast amongts, pretty much anywhere because I will not agree with collective ideas, just for the sake of being a collective idea.

 

Has that gotten me in problems? Sure but then again anything I do that doesnt conform to a set rule gets me in trouble. However I rather get in trouble knowing full well that I stuck to what I believe to be correct than to be acceot whatecer someone else says just because. 

[Anthracite_Impreza]

First of all, you never know it will never change. If you'd have asked the average Roman citizen whether slavery would ever be illegal, they probably would've given you a profound "no", because in their society it was so common as to be ubiquitous and eternal.

 

Second, absolutely you should stand by your morals, even if you seem to stand alone. I don't agree with anti-abortionists but I respect them more if they stick to their morals and don't sway from it when it's convenient. I will stand by and for machines forever, even if it means most think I'm a nutter or even dangerous. I don't care, my conscience will not allow me to sit back and not say something, it will not allow me to stay silent. I've never met anyone else who cares with quite so much vigour; I've been shouted at, shunned and had the piss taken from me for it, but I won't back down. To me it's literally the purpose of my existence. Why - how - would I ever put my conscience and heartfelt beliefs on the backburner just cos some people don't like it?

[SithLord]

That's complicated. Yes and no. If you're passionate about it, yes, it's always worth the fight, even if others really wished you wouldn't. What I would say "Yes, definitely!" to though would be mostly my own opinions such as trans rights, a living wage, healthcare, etc. But there are those who are also in "losing battles" which few would agree with like white supremacy (few in terms of number, I know they don't always feel like that, especially depending on where you live). 

 

If it's something you believe in, fight for it no matter how inevitable your loss may seem. Resist and bite, to quote one of my favorite Sabaton songs about quite literally fighting a losing battle. 

[Guest]

I guess it depends on what the battle is...

 

If it's not that big a deal, then it's just added stress for little reason.

 

If it's an important thing... well, people would have once called slavery a losing battle, or racial segregation. Everything starts out as a losing battle if you're fighting against "the norms". It's only when enough people join your fight for what was seen as "impossible" that things become possible. And, even if it does end up being impossible in your life time, at least fighting for someone or something important to someone shows them that someone cares so you still touch a life. 

[argar]

I by no means want to make light of what you are stating.

 

I think at the end of the day, if you can look in a mirror and at least like what you see, the day has been a victory.

 

Just a few hours ago I saw a video about something that is similar to what you have stated.

 

Since this is a philosophy thread, and the video is in part about philosophy, I thought I would share.

 

By no means is it meant to be a comparison in any way, but just an interesting example of something pertaining to the topic.

 

Wisecrack

[RoseGoesToYale]

36 minutes ago, Kimchi Peanut said:

The one thing that is very important to me that people closest to me think is “nonsense” and “a waste of effort” is that I only fight losing battles.

As someone who fights losing battles constantly, I can relate. The whole of sociology is a "losing battle."

 

But I suppose the question is, is there such thing as a battle that's truly lost?

 

I've seen hockey teams battle back from multi-goal deficits to win. My grandfather got in a car accident in his 90s with broken ribs and everything... and survived. And I'll just leave this here.

[SithLord]

13 minutes ago, RoseGoesToYale said:

But I suppose the question is, is there such thing as a battle that's truly lost?

 

I've seen hockey teams battle back from multi-goal deficits to win. My grandfather got in a car accident in his 90s with broken ribs and everything... and survived. And I'll just leave this here.

I think the better question would be if it's even a battle if it's truely lost. There are lost causes. A human flying unaided is a lost cause, though you can make tools to make something similar happen. An army with bows and arrows against an army of 10,000 with machine guns is a lost cause, though you can have minor victories in killing one or two of the enemy and reduce them as much as possible. 

 

Luck and chance can be on your side and extremely unlikely things can and will happen. After all, odds of 3720 to 1 still means there's a chance. 

[Philip027]

If "you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink" was the single piece of advice my mom most often gave to me, "pick your battles carefully" would be a close 2nd place.  And honestly, they both kind of overlap in some ways.

 

Personally I can see the point, because I simply don't have the energy to battle for lost causes anymore.  There comes a point where I eventually have to say "okay, whatever; keep being stupid" and just move on, and I find it easier and easier to reach that point as the years go by.

[Guest]

How do you know its a losing battle? How do they know its a losing battle???

[Philip027]

Quote

How do you know its a losing battle? How do they know its a losing battle???

It's usually around when the feeling of hopelessness sets in.

 

Alternatively, it's when you start juggling the feeling of hopelessness with that of the Sunk Cost Fallacy, aka "I must keep trying because I've invested so much into this lost cause already; it would be a shame/waste if I gave up now!"

[Sinking_In]

Certain situations may call for it, so context is important. Some fights must be fought, even when seemingly hopeless. Some are just fights for the sake of fighting, which are not productive.

My own wife recently picked such a fight. Long story short, she took a situation where someone offered an amicable settlement, and she instead chose to escalate the situation to where all involved would come out with lost time and money, with no possible gain to herself. She dug her heels in and fought, for nothing other than her desire to be right, when in fact she was in the wrong. Some people will just do that, sometimes.

[Guest]

4 hours ago, Serran said:

I guess it depends on what the battle is

I would have to agree with this, and the fine art of picking one's battles wisely. 

 

Some things are worthy of fighting tooth and nail over. It's understanding those that really aren't. 

 

I have worked with people who were adamant about preservation, working in companies that didn't care about the environment. Would spend so much breath grilling people on their wasteful ways, while they all would roll their eyes hoping that person would shut up. 

 

I worked with fierce vegans, that would protest anyone eating meat. 

 

By the third time they tried to convince me how bad bacon was, I started bringing it in everyday for a while. They made their point, and I made mine. 

 

I don't shove my lifestyle down your throat, so please don't do so to me. I will never get into a religious argument with you, unless you start bullying me into seeing God the way you see it when I peacefully made my stance clear in respect of your own beliefs. 

 

I disrespected their stance as they tried forcing their views onto me. 

 

I was minding my business, no less. 

 

One of the laws of happiness is the ability to accept what one can't control. Happy people focus on what they can. 

 

Fighting every battle is a waste of time and effort. As you're trying to force the world to bend to you. It's the life equivalent of driving your Mercedes Smart car into a Mack truck and hoping for good results. 

 

Without further context on what you are fighting about, am afraid this is the best I can give you. 

[Grumpy Alien]

13 hours ago, Perspektiv said:

Without further context on what you are fighting about, am afraid this is the best I can give you. 

What frustrates people most is when I point out someone is incorrect about something when that person is stubborn and opinionated. The example that spawned this thread is as follows:

 

My grandparents are STAUNCH conservative Republicans and Trump supporters. Huge fans of Fox News - they won’t even believe anything from any other news media. And they believe every word out of Rush Limbaugh’s mouth. My grandmother also doesn’t listen to me. She’ll ask me a small talk or personal question and as soon as I’ve so much as said a noun, she’s interrupting me with a story she just remembered about people I don’t know semi-related to whatever noun I said. 

 

My grandmother visited my mom’s while I was recently in the US for a few days. She mentioned that abortion is legal in Virginia at 8 and 9 months and for mothers to decide to have their children murdered as soon as the baby is born naturally. Which... is obviously absolute nonsense. I said I didn’t believe that to be true but she insisted. So I humoured her and Googled it. This upset my mom for not just dropping the subject. I found what she was at least trying to reference. Virginia House Bill 2491, which was quickly tabled. So I read out the current Virginia abortion restrictions. She said no, that was either outdated or the law had been passed and then recently repealed because she saw an interview with a politician who said he would “Make the babies comfortable” when performing “infanticide.” So I Googled that as well. My mom kept trying to interrupt us at this point even though we were as civil as could be, not even discussing whether abortion should or should not be legal. I found the transcript and not only showed it to my grandmother but read it out loud. She kept saying “No, I know what he said” and “That’s not how it went” and shaking her head. So I pulled it up on YouTube. My mom was now saying “Put that away” but we both assured her that it was fine and we were not arguing. The video very clearly proves that she was mistaken. That was not at all what he said, that was never a law, and that wasn’t what the bill was for. She just said “Hm” with a slight nod and continued the conversation my mom was trying to interrupt with.

 

There was never any chance that I was going to change her mind on abortion or even have her admit that she had been misinformed. That was never ever going to happen. I was not under any delusion that was a possibility. And to be honest, that was never my intention and it didn’t even cross my mind to go there with her. My husband agrees with my mom and said that the entire 10 minute conversation and 3 Google searches was “a waste of time and effort” and “pointless.” They said it “wasn’t worth the aggravation.” I’m not sure I understand this? I would’ve been SOOOOOOOOOOO much more aggravated - at myself - if I hadn’t pointed out the bullshit. I don’t feel like I went overboard. I never asked her to concede and I never offered an opinion. I just felt it was a harmful statement to be so convinced of that she’s freely telling people in barely related conversation. I felt that it was wrong of her to assume something so outlandish was true without looking it up before passing it along as fact to others. (Don’t presume she can’t Google. She’s been using computers longer than I have and has a smartphone. She’s addicted to editing her Bitmoji and sending them in texts, emails, and on Facebook.) Personally, I would feel horrendously guilty if I let things like this in life slide by. I don’t have an intention of changing their behaviour. My grandmother will continue to spread fake news like that for the rest of her life, like she has done throughout adulthood. I know that. It doesn’t mean I shouldn’t say something, does it? To me, saying nothing and doing nothing is the same as allowing it to happen. I can’t live with that.

 

My grandparents also use unnecessary descriptive words. “I saw a new doctor last week. Such a nice black man, wonderful bedside manner. Do you know him? Dr. _____?” Okay... But why is his skin relevant? That’s like saying he was wearing brown shoes and has a mole on his ear. What of it? It’s because she doesn’t view him as a doctor but a BLACK doctor. She sees that as separate somehow, necessary to specify. She does this often even with friends, describing someone as a “beautiful Muslim woman” or “a hilarious gay man.” I think that’s wrong. I tell her that such adjectives are superfluous, that it’s offensive to compliment someone on their skills AS a PoC/LGBTQ+/immigrant/disabled person, etc. It implies that they are good at ______... for a _____. That isn’t fair. That’s not an influence on their abilities or beauty. Do I think I will ever influence her? No. I have no faith in that ever happening. But again, it’s just... something I’m compelled to do, even if it’s just to help me sleep at night by saying I did what I could.

 

Does there need to be an intent to change someone’s thoughts or behaviours for something to be worth fighting for, worth correcting, worth standing up for? Am I as nonsensical as my family thinks? Perhaps. But I don’t see myself changing my own behaviour if I am. 😜

[Anthracite_Impreza]

20 minutes ago, Kimchi Peanut said:

Does there need to be an intent to change someone’s thoughts or behaviours for something to be worth fighting for, worth correcting, worth standing up for? Am I as nonsensical as my family thinks? Perhaps. But I don’t see myself changing my own behaviour if I am. 😜

Well if you are so am I. I'm exactly the same and bring out the google regularly. I'm much more of the "I will not be thought of as wrong when I know I'm right" variety though.

[Grumpy Alien]

27 minutes ago, Anthracite_Impreza said:

Well if you are so am I. I'm exactly the same and bring out the google regularly. I'm much more of the "I will not be thought of as wrong when I know I'm right" variety though.

I don’t see that as an inherently bad thing if you genuinely are correct, are willing to admit you are wrong if that’s the case, and aren’t rude about it. Why would information be a bad thing?

[Anthracite_Impreza]

13 minutes ago, Kimchi Peanut said:

I don’t see that as an inherently bad thing if you genuinely are correct, are willing to admit you are wrong if that’s the case, and aren’t rude about it. Why would information be a bad thing?

A lot of people don't like being corrected. Nor do I, which is why I'll only be resolute if I'm sure. I have a 100% accuracy rate with my father when I say "Father, I know", but still he'll argue with me.

[Zagadka]

I feel like it is almost always best to fight the battle, even if you lose and know you're going to lose. I'm generally a pessimist, but the "you miss all the shots you don't take" line actually applies here. At least you can make noise for next time, as no decision is really final.

[Janus the Fox]

The philosophy of "life itself is a losing battle" means to me that any battle is worth a fight for as long as I'm passionate, willing, able and patient, I'll fight for a cause until prevented.

[Grumpy Alien]

1 minute ago, Janus DarkFox said:

The philosophy of "life itself is a losing battle" means to me that any battle is worth a fight for as long as I'm passionate, willing, able and patient, I'll fight for a cause until prevented.

I don’t recall ever hearing that phrase but I really like it!

[Gwaeron]

Generally I’m of the opinion that any battle has a chance to be won as long as there is one person still left standing. On the other hand, picking the battles that are worth fighting is also important, not to mention that living to fight another day (literally or figuratively) may also be more useful than a sacrifice. Consider the cause, decide what it’s worth to you, then consider the consequences.

[uhtred]

Some things are worth fighting for.  Some are worth dying for.  But it far better not to have to do either and it never makes sense to expend your effort (or life) to no benefit. 

 

Its usually pointless to argue with stupid ignorant people.  They are not wort the effort. 

 

Sometimes though if you make an honest effort to understand *why* they think the way that they do, you may find a way to convince them.  As an example someone might be anti-gay because they think all gays are child molesters.  OK - if that were true, then their view would make sense. So, it might help to find out why they believe that, and maybe see if they are open to learning that their belief is simply false.  Maybe they are, maybe not, but it at least gives you a direction to argue.

 

 

 

 

[Zagadka]

I have to say that one of my big fears is dying pointlessly. If I'm going to die, I want it to be for a good cause. I suppose the same thing goes for life, if you don't want to be that way.

 

Arguing with stupid people is not worth it on its own, but it can be illustrative to anyone paying attention, and you never know when that happens. It is always good to fight stupid where it rears its head.

 

I'm a pessimist, and I'm a pacifist, but I'll die on certain hills.

[Guest]

13 hours ago, Kimchi Peanut said:

I don’t feel like I went overboard.

 

While you did the right thing calling out the bullshit, you insisting and doing it three times was the overboard part. Them fully tuning you out, showcases how disrespected that they felt and in their shoes they saw it likely as an attempt to humiliate them. 

 

The aggravation was everyone else in the room with you, with an uncomfortable husband playing the middle man hoping you would just stop, seeing its clearly going nowhere after you corrected them. 

 

Any further correction will be taken as an attempt to humiliate by your parents if they are at all prideful. 

 

I experienced a similar situation. 

 

One of my employees is highly politically correct. No issues. I am professional and diplomatic in a workplace. 

 

One issue. One of my employees was far right winged. 

 

We had a Christmas dinner, and that employee noticed a waitress that looked just like my fiancee. 

 

I turn around, to notice he was poking fun at my partners Asian background but insultingly as the waitress was Chinese. Still very attractive as well, but clearly didn't look a thing like her. Even the skin tone was well off, as one was pale and my partner is naturally tanned in appearance. 

 

On the basis, of they all have chinky eyes so look the same. 

 

My employee took offense to the racist joke and stared me down to correct the employee. I wasn't about to make a stink over it to grown adults in public. 

 

I knew I was going to hear about it the next business day. 

 

She told me racism is unacceptable. That I should be "outraged". 

 

I told my significant other, and she laughed. Told me she probably would talk to them in a thick Chinese accent when they'd meet just to make it awkward. 

 

I told her I have experienced racism my entire life. You learn to pick your battles wisely. That wasn't a setting worth a breath. 

 

She called me out on the dismissive defense mechanism. That I should correct each and every slight. 

 

That going through life without, was accepting the racism. 

 

She went on in a very passionate speech, so I gave her the floor until she was done and looking like she finally wanted to hear my take. 

 

I told her racism is something you can never eradicate. I could correct a racist but that their minds are engrained. This is who they are. 

 

To attempt to silence their voices only makes them speak under their breath and behind my back. Their push grows stronger, but they know better to avoid saying a thing around me. 

 

True power is knowing they exist, but giving them zero power by not buying into their voice by giving it anger, outrage or even an ear. 

 

That employee prefers fighting every slight tooth and nail, not realizing she is alienating herself and that those she corrects are ridiculing her behind her back. They don't get that ignorant and wanting to change their tune.

 

All the power to anyone wanting to fight that hard, but to me, you should fight those battles alone. Involving others as collateral that have to sit on the sidelines, watching it unfold is where the lines get crossed in my opinion. You're fighting on on one, go nuts. 

[DarkStormyKnight]

For me the distinction lies more within myself, sometimes I'm just too exhausted to fight a losing battle and therefore shouldn't for the sake of my sanity. Sometimes you just don't have the spoons for it and there's nothing wrong with abstaining and taking care of yourself.

But theoretically should we stick to our principles and fight losing battles? Yes absolutely.

[Guest]

I think fighting a losing battle is more for personal gratification than actually doing anything. 

 

Like that employee I described. They get satisfaction of correcting someone, who don't even pay them any mind. 

 

They could use all that wasted energy actually doing something to put forth their ideas into the world. This would be far more beneficial. 

 

They get more satisfaction forcing people to fall in line with their line of thinking.

 

I.E my best friends wife corrects people constantly. 

 

I don't care as am humble enough to be corrected if am wrong. She does it respectfully. She simply points out the correction, not to make me feel like an idiot, but on a basis of "just so you know, not to be rude but.."

 

I say respectfully, as if am not taking heed to her correction, she drops it. She knows am aware. 

 

However, many would avoid being around her as they see her as a buzzkill to an off the record conversation where many non factual things tend to be said. 

 

I guarantee you a good percentage of my opinions were off on the exact facts. 

 

I don't carry a cellphone on me always nor am I going to check Google while having an opinion. 

 

I think you should never stop making corrections. However you truly need to understand the power of knowing when to stop. 

[Sally]

You say "I only fight losing battles. "   Do you mean you don't fight battles in which you have some capability of winning?  I wonder why.  

[Muledeer]

No.  I think fighting a battle that does not appear winnable is not worth the fight.   If I can influence the outcome without a win, then maybe.

[Grumpy Alien]

On 2/17/2020 at 2:11 AM, Sally said:

You say "I only fight losing battles. "   Do you mean you don't fight battles in which you have some capability of winning?  I wonder why.  

I’m not sure, honestly.

[ben8884]

I remember going on the big anti war march in Hyde Park before the Iraq war. I knew that the UK was going to go to war regardless but for me it was as much about saying-as we said back then "not in my name." Sometimes the victory comes from making a stand?