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Is "Autochorissexual" ...Problematic?


Mizulyn

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Hello! I've known about asexuality.org for a while now, but I never felt the need to register an account on here because-- once I understood the basic concepts of asexuality/greyasexuality-- I didn't really have any burning questions I needed to ask....

 

...until now.

 

Before continuing, I want to preface this thread with the fact that I really, really don't want to offend anyone. This isn't a dig nor a put-down of those who identify as Autochorissexual. Heck, for me, "Autochorissexual" seemed like the only sexual identity that vibed with me, you know? If nothing else, I'm actually a bit frustrated by all this.

 

So...this all started because of a Oomer Wojak meme.

 

I'll share the image under a spoiler, for those who'd rather not see it. TW/CW for the sexualization of gay men, possible ableism and mentions of rape jokes/kink

Spoiler

YGtQA4V.jpg

 

At first glance this meme seems kind of funny because it's basically making fun of the type of homophobia that sees Men Loving Men as just porno material. But one of the problematic lines is this one in particular: "dead libido regarding herself, can only coom to voyeur fantasies".

Isn't that sort of like being Autochorissexual? I'm feeling a bit called out here.

 

I can't help it if I was raised to be so prudish and hate my face and body so damn much to the point of dysmorphia to where I can't cum imagining myself having sex. Maybe a version of myself, but not a very realistic version. And even then I can't in first person, it's usually third aka "a voyeur".

I dunno. Maybe Autochorissexual was problematic to begin with? It is a "MOGAI" identity, which places like tumblr have a problem with. Then again maybe I'm getting worked up over a low quality meme.

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I don't see how autochorisexuals can be problematic to a third person who minds his/her own business.

If people watching porn can be called voyeurs then has the whole society fallen into perversity.

It is easy to find haters on social networks but there you can also meet the few supporting people that you would not have been able to reach irl. Again the only solution is to be selective and avoid troll feeding.

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Ugh, I hate that stereotype. Everyone expects it of me because I'm a chick who's into yaoi. It was also my first erotica experience because even within anime communities, the porn stuff is pretty obviously blocked off as NSFW but yaoi sometimes slips through because most of it has plot to go with that porn. Also, yes, the anime geek stereotype of "not liking real people anymore because waifu/husbando" is a common joke but not at all helpful for those of us who actually don't actually don't like real people that way. 

 

I don't consider the fujoshi stereotype and autochorissexual one in the same, nor do I consider the latter problematic, only the former because that stereotype sucks. 

 

As a tangent from this topic:

Spoiler

The male term for "fujoshi" is "fudanshi". It means liking BL/yaoi/shounen-ai/gay romance and erotica. There's an interesting comedy series called The High School Life of a Fudanshi which explores the interesting fandom of BL while dealing with the sexism of a boy being into a genre which is dominated by girls. Also this guy is a bit like the stereotype where he's really into gay stuff, to the point where people think he himself is gay though he's not.

 

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I don't think autochorissexuality is inherently problematic. This meme is problematic though. "Watching porn and masturbating is bad if girls do it"? Screw that.

I'm pretty sure 'lesbian' is one of the most searched terms on porn websites. Do the men who watch that get stereotyped like this?

 

Minimizing rape is bad, yes. Projecting sexual fantasies onto real humans is also bad (at least in my ace opinion it is, though I realize that's probably more common than I'm comfortable with knowing). Neither of those things are autochorissexuality though. And those things probably also aren't inherent to girls who enjoy stories about male/male relationships, and they certainly aren't exclusive to them. Lots of men do this shit to women all the friggin' time.

 

But seriously though, what's wrong with being into kpop? This post reminds of that thing society tends to do in which it ridicules everything that young girls are into, like twilight or boy bands or specific phrases they use or the Starbucks coffee they like, or the make-up and clothing styles they wear, etcetera etcetera. As soon as teen girls like it, it's automatically considered lame. 

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9 minutes ago, Pan Ficto. (on hiatus?) said:

Aside from the fact that kpop stars are practically slaves? :o

Yeah that's fair. I wouldn't blame that on the people who like kpop though. I'd blame that on the companies who do that to them.

 

Edit: Also, the people I personally know who like kpop are very aware of that, and are very much against that system. But you could say that they could do more to stop it from happening. Or at least not give their money to those companies.

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Also, another point I want to make about this is that autochorissexuality is not voyeurism. In voyeurism, the arousing thing is the thrill of the fact that the self is watching a sexual situation. In autochorissexuality, the emphasis is on removing the self from the sexual situation entirely, because being present in the sexual situation would either be a major turn off, or would be downright repulsive.

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I identify with autochorissexuality based on the definition (except for the 'identify as asexual' part) but I'm still a sexual person, the term seems a bit pointless to me

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Lonemathsytoothbrushthief
1 hour ago, Laurann said:

I don't think autochorissexuality is inherently problematic. This meme is problematic though. "Watching porn and masturbating is bad if girls do it"? Screw that.

I'm pretty sure 'lesbian' is one of the most searched terms on porn websites. Do the men who watch that get stereotyped like this?

I mean...they frequently get called out for objectifying lesbians. Same as polyamourous men looking for a "unicorn" are frequently called out for biphobia. And like...do I even have to bring up some of the transphobic porn out there?

I think the point is just, if you need porn a lot and treat it uncritically with respect to what you're watching, especially as someone who's not a lesbian or gay man or trans person watching people who are have sex under the lense of porn genres which may be aiming to appeal to people like you's biases(not the pornstars necessarily, but I know some of the genres, because of course it's a hard life and the viewers tend to be shitty straight cis men)...you risk falling into the shitty types of viewers which it might be trying to appeal to.

 

I don't know though, I don't use porn and haven't seen anything to summarise the types of homophobia, lesbophobia, biphobia, transphobia etc to watch out for. I just know there are subsections which treat many LGBT+ people as basically fetishes.

 

Not related to the anime and manga stuff though.

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Anthracite_Impreza
4 hours ago, Mizulyn said:

Then again maybe I'm getting worked up over a low quality meme.

Yes, probably. Not a dig at you but there are certain individuals out there who will piss-take anyone, it's their sad little hobby. I wouldn't get worked up over it. You're not hurting anyone IRL, it really doesn't matter.

 

I have looked up autism memes to try to find relatable ones; 90% are taking the piss out of autism. Does that mean autism is problematic, or does it mean those who make these memes are?

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@Lonemathsytoothbrushthief Yeah, you definitely have a point and I agree. Objectifying queer people, thinking that porn in any way reflects reality, that shit has to be called out regardless of the genders of the people involved. And there probably is some really problematic stuff involving gay men, but since  I don't watch porn either and all I know about it comes from news articles and documentaries, I don't really know enough about it.

 

My point was more that I think it's a bit hypocritical to make fun of girls for doing the same stuff that everyone does and stereotyping them like this. Why would they smell and be unhygienic? Why so much emphasis on them masturbating 'too much'? Is women getting off in public to gay porn really something that happens or is that just weird scaremongering? It just seems like the meme is chastising women for expressing sexuality, because you know, women aren't 'supposed' to be sexual, and if they are, then they are 'dirty' or 'gross' or 'not feminine.' 

 

But maybe I'm wrong and there are similar memes about the men watching lesbian porn being unhygienic, ugly, inappropriate, too sexual and hormonally imbalanced as well. I'm not on social media where memes are prevalent, so I probably really wouldn't know. If there is piss-taking meme equality, then I'll take back what I said.

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everywhere and nowhere

That picture is simply disgusting. Even just purely esthetically.

And I obviously can't accept the idea that only being able to be aroused by fantasies is wrong. Sexualities which don't include partnered sexual contact are not "inferior". Not wanting to have sex or to imagine oneself having sex is not wrong. There would be no material for that disgusting "joke" if people stopped thinking that someone who pleasures themself "instead of" having Actual Partnered Sex must be a loser.

5 hours ago, Mizulyn said:

I can't help it if I was raised to be so prudish and hate my face and body so damn much to the point of dysmorphia to where I can't cum imagining myself having sex. Maybe a version of myself, but not a very realistic version. And even then I can't in first person, it's usually third aka "a voyeur".

I wasn't raised "prudish" and I don't hate my body - I just cannot like it, cannot feel much more than anger towards it because of my chronic illness, because of how 35 years of allergy have irreversibly damaged my skin and make me experience constant itching. It's undeniable that my nudity aversion and sex aversion have a lot to do with being chronically ill. But still, despite all this, I actively prefer the place I arrived at. I'm grateful for the fact that my illness at least made me effectively asexual. Yes, I realise that it has the characteristics of a vicious circle: I'm so sex-averse that even the idea of being able to have sex feels violating. But I really see a lot of advantages to being asexual. Despite the idea that "sex is healthy", I see celibacy as a safer option than sexual activity. Not wanting to have sex and not needing to "make oneself pretty" saves a lot of time. And, most importantly... I just find the idea that "sex is freedom" ridiculous and when I think of all the senseless, loveless sex people have, I'm glad to be liberated from compulsory sexuality.

 

And I think that what I have written shows that nudity aversion =/= "low self esteeem". The body is not all. And I find it almost amusing how it is visible in what I have written that despite not liking my body I'm proud, I highly appreciate my mind and this appreciation allows me to feel secure in my choices, no matter how weird they may seem to others.

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Conclusion I got from this thread: memes like these are problematic and instead of attacking people, we should be searching into the roots of why things are as they are, otherwise they'll never change. 

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It's simply a stereotype that someone has, it doesn't have anything to do with the truth. There's nothing wrong with being autochorissexual. (I will say though, that I personally find it weird if people write romantic or nsfw fanfics about real people, but that's just me) However things like fantasizing about a fictional character, there is absolutely nothing wrong with

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7 hours ago, Mizulyn said:
  Reveal hidden contents

YGtQA4V.jpg

 

 

Spoiler

whats-happening-its-annoying-or-not-inte

 

I mean, I'm not a Fujoshi and the comments on the side in the picture don't describe me (I really value my hygiene, thank you very much) but the way they choose to represent Fujoshis (from the body type, the hairstyle to all the way down to the glasses), I look exactly like that. 😅

 

Jokes aside, I think that this is a slippery slope fallacy. The whole shtick with fujoshis and autochorissexuality.... well, those are two very different things - one is about unhealthy obsession with gay porn while the other - a specific pattern to what kind of fantasies does a person have.

Also, I don't think that the notion of "autochorissexuality is a variation of voyeurism" is true. Last time I checked, autochorissexuals doesn't actually want to watch unsuspecting naked people going at it IRL. Even the opposite of that. Again, to me this sounds like a slippery slope fallacy.

 

Besides, it's been said several times. The people who create such memes often times lack self-awareness, as these types of people actually go on and watch lesbian/trans porn on web-sites like pornhub and whatnot.

 

 

5 hours ago, Sithgroundhog said:

The male term for "fujoshi" is "fudanshi". It means liking BL/yaoi/shounen-ai/gay romance and erotica.

Huh, interesting. I wasn't aware that there was a term for men who are obsessed with Yaoi.

 

4 hours ago, Laurann said:

But seriously though, what's wrong with being into kpop? This post reminds of that thing society tends to do in which it ridicules everything that young girls are into, like twilight or boy bands or specific phrases they use or the Starbucks coffee they like, or the make-up and clothing styles they wear, etcetera etcetera. As soon as teen girls like it, it's automatically considered lame. 

The issue with kpop stans is that it isn't just young girls that are obsessed with kpop idols but also adult women and men (which kind of disturbing implications considering how young kpop idols tend look like).

And that's not all.

Stalking, crazy haters who are literally ready to harm the kpop idols and equally crazy fangirls, alleged sex exploitation by the companies, high depression and suicide rates amongst kpop idols and more.... but despite all of that, kpop fans simply doesn't care. It's not a coincidence that the Kpop fanbase is considered to be one of the worst fanbases in existence.

 

Spoiler

About the crazy kpop haters and fans.

Apparently, there has been cases of kpop idols receiving disgusting and outright dangerous gifts.

One kpop idol has received the PMS blood of a fangirl as a gift (ewww) and another kpop idol was poisoned by a hater.

 

And for the sex exploitation, it is said that companies force them into prostitution as well.

 

 

Music boy/girl bands are not the only ones who receive such an unhealthy attention tho.

Youtube celebrities also get that but it's not discussed nearly as often. The infamous ship "Septicplier" (Markiplier and Jacksepticeye) was a result of that.

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It sounds kind of snowflakey and not really that different from "ace with a libido" to me

 

But there's far more... eligible things that get said around here that I'd label as problematic.

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Lonemathsytoothbrushthief
3 hours ago, Laurann said:

My point was more that I think it's a bit hypocritical to make fun of girls for doing the same stuff that everyone does and stereotyping them like this. Why would they smell and be unhygienic? Why so much emphasis on them masturbating 'too much'? Is women getting off in public to gay porn really something that happens or is that just weird scaremongering? It just seems like the meme is chastising women for expressing sexuality, because you know, women aren't 'supposed' to be sexual, and if they are, then they are 'dirty' or 'gross' or 'not feminine.' 

 

But maybe I'm wrong and there are similar memes about the men watching lesbian porn being unhygienic, ugly, inappropriate, too sexual and hormonally imbalanced as well. I'm not on social media where memes are prevalent, so I probably really wouldn't know. If there is piss-taking meme equality, then I'll take back what I said.

No that part of it's definitely misogynistic. I see trans men do it too, and sometimes if they're really toxic using these images to call another trans afab person a "transtrender". The "if I were a man I'd be gay" bit comes from that imo, cause you're supposed to read it and assume the person in the meme is motivated by fetishising gay men, but sometimes people may feel this way because they actually ARE a gay man.

 

Oh and since I think those sorts of toxic trans men come from a place of classism(having enough money, the sorts of parents etc to have "proof" of your transness dating back to childhood through expression, also the way they judge people as not dysphoric enough for doing things with their body would seem to rule out anyone involved in sex work, a load of things...) the lack of hygiene honestly makes sense for them. Not saying this was a truscum type but it reminds me of them a lot.

 

Honestly even though it's probably nothing to do with what I said, I think a lot of LGBT+ politics has an issue with classism/ableism and it's really horrible to me when that's leaned on in order to make fun of homophobes/transphobes etc. Like MOST OF OUR ENEMIES ARE ATTRACTIVE! They're mostly rich people supporting oppression, whether that's for oil from Saudi Arabia or to quell revolution in Chile or Sudan or wherever else. To keep their precious banks going in Hong Kong...idk. Idk enough world politics to be able to track all of the oppression which goes on globally which actually fuels the laws which hurt us, instead of some random bigot who's also broke. People make so many memes about the latter and it's pointless if you don't also target the former. Cause homophobia, same as anything else, is not a lower class problem. It's an upper class problem, which has been trickling downwards for centuries.

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letusdeleteouraccounts
6 hours ago, œddy said:

I identify with autochorissexuality based on the definition (except for the 'identify as asexual' part) but I'm still a sexual person, the term seems a bit pointless to me

Well the term is for asexuals so that’s why it would be pointless for you. You can’t be autochorrisexual without being asexual because autochorrisexuals don’t experience sexual attraction

 

3 hours ago, Philip027 said:

It sounds kind of snowflakey and not really that different from "ace with a libido" to me

I’d say the difference from autochorrisexual simply being libido is that the arousal etc. is often aimed. A lot libidoist asexuals don’t have their libido aimed at anyone

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6 hours ago, œddy said:

I identify with autochorissexuality based on the definition (except for the 'identify as asexual' part) but I'm still a sexual person, the term seems a bit pointless to me

There are average sexuals who experience 'autochoris' things, so it's indeed pointless when it comes to determining whether someone is(n't) asexual.

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everywhere and nowhere
11 hours ago, Sithgroundhog said:

The male term for "fujoshi" is "fudanshi". It means liking BL/yaoi/shounen-ai/gay romance and erotica. There's an interesting comedy series called The High School Life of a Fudanshi which explores the interesting fandom of BL while dealing with the sexism of a boy being into a genre which is dominated by girls. Also this guy is a bit like the stereotype where he's really into gay stuff, to the point where people think he himself is gay though he's not.

I haven't known about it and I actually think that fudanshis have it even worse than fujoshis. A fujoshi may be accused of being some pervert, some kind of "wait, gals/women have fetishes too??"... maybe an unaware trans gay man, but it's not that common. However... really, I wish every fudanshi luck in explaining to people that he isn't gay... Probably nobody's gonna believe it. :(

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9 hours ago, HikaruBG said:

Huh, interesting. I wasn't aware that there was a term for men who are obsessed with Yaoi.

I object strongly to the term "obsessed". Not all people who are fans of something are obsessed. It's a term often used for those of us who fall into geek culture just because we enjoy material that is considered socially unacceptable. Very rarely is it used for those who are into sports or music (unless it's kpop or teenage girls anyway, and screw that as well) or things that are more respected.

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Oh wow! I didn't think I'd get this big of a response. I don't think I can respond to every single thought individually, but I'll try and sum up my thoughts after reading the comments here.

 

Firstly, I think you all are right about the whole "Autochorissexual is different from voyeurism, since you're removed all together" thing. That was a distinction I failed to piece together in my head, so I wanna thank everyone for their clarity.

 

I also agree that this meme does seem very sex-shamey and anti-women, but I also like to remind everyone that not everything a woman does in the name of sex positivity is 100% feminist. Cishet men sexualize lesbian women all the time, but that doesn't make it okay to do either.

 

As for the portion of the meme addressing poor hygiene, I feel like that's an otaku stereotype in general. I also feel like it comes from an ableist place. People with depression, executive dysfunction, chronic illnesses, and even autistic people can struggle to be "hygienic" for all kinds of reasons. That isn't to say I automatically think it's ableist to remind people to bathe or wear deoderant, but the whole "haha this person has bad hygiene let's make fun of them" is kind of ableist. 

 

I feel like I had more to say, but it's escaping me. Thanks so much for your input! I feel a bit better now :)

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13 hours ago, Star Lion said:

Well the term is for asexuals so that’s why it would be pointless for you. You can’t be autochorrisexual without being asexual because autochorrisexuals don’t experience sexual attraction

 

I’d say the difference from autochorrisexual simply being libido is that the arousal etc. is often aimed. A lot libidoist asexuals don’t have their libido aimed at anyone

I agree, but when you're trying to figure yourself out having a term that describes you can be confusing. Sexual attraction is still a rather nebulous concept that varies so much between genders, let along all people. Autochoris just describes having a libido to me, having a libido aimed at a person sounds rather like sexual attraction.

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letusdeleteouraccounts
4 hours ago, œddy said:

I agree, but when you're trying to figure yourself out having a term that describes you can be confusing. Sexual attraction is still a rather nebulous concept that varies so much between genders, let along all people. Autochoris just describes having a libido to me, having a libido aimed at a person sounds rather like sexual attraction.

Understandable, it gets very confusing. My thought though is that even though my libido is aimed and I have fantasies, I’m not involved in those fantasies because I really don’t want to be sexually involved with who I’m aroused by. I see sexual attraction as an attraction to people to where you want to be sexually intimate with them, something autochorrisexuals don’t experience.

 

An asexual who has libido but isn’t autochorrisexual, I’d say, is one who doesn’t have sexually charged fantasies or a desire to fantasize in that type of way. I’m not sure how large the proportions are between the two groups but that’s how I see the difference

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On 2/5/2020 at 2:28 AM, Star Lion said:

Understandable, it gets very confusing. My thought though is that even though my libido is aimed and I have fantasies, I’m not involved in those fantasies because I really don’t want to be sexually involved with who I’m aroused by. I see sexual attraction as an attraction to people to where you want to be sexually intimate with them, something autochorrisexuals don’t experience.

 

An asexual who has libido but isn’t autochorrisexual, I’d say, is one who doesn’t have sexually charged fantasies or a desire to fantasize in that type of way. I’m not sure how large the proportions are between the two groups but that’s how I see the difference

Question for you: is it possible to be a demisexual and autochorissexual at the same time?

 

spoilers for TMI:

Spoiler

I don't have a lot of dating experience, (I'm still a virgin irl) but the person I feel attached to romantically/emotionally--and have had sexual fantasies about-- I have a desire to be sexual with them. But at the same time, I couldn't imagine me, myself, like, having sex in a brightly lit room, nor having sex in first person, nor actually seeing my and their nude bodies. Every time I try to imagine it, I end up going third person and imagining like a hotter version of myself, sometimes I don't even stay in the realm of 3D and just go straight up anime.

I'm guessing yes, since demisexuality still falls under asexuality, doesn't it?

 

Oh gosh I'm so confused, but I feel like I'm learning a lot!

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1 minute ago, Mizulyn said:

Question for you: is it possible to be a demisexual and autochorissexual at the same time?

 

spoilers for TMI:

  Hide contents

I don't have a lot of dating experience, (I'm still a virgin irl) but the person I feel attached to romantically/emotionally--and have had sexual fantasies about-- I have a desire to be sexual with them. But at the same time, I couldn't imagine me, myself, like, having sex in a brightly lit room, nor having sex in first person, nor actually seeing my and their nude bodies. Every time I try to imagine it, I end up going third person and imagining like a hotter version of myself, sometimes I don't even stay in the realm of 3D and just go straight up anime.

I'm guessing yes, since demisexuality still falls under asexuality, doesn't it?

 

Oh gosh I'm so confused, but I feel like I'm learning a lot!

Autochorrisexuals don’t experience sexual attraction, making it an inherent asexual label. Demisexuals wouldn’t be asexual because they still experience sexual attraction, even if less often than the general population.

 

On 2/4/2020 at 6:10 AM, œddy said:

I identify with autochorissexuality based on the definition (except for the 'identify as asexual' part) but I'm still a sexual person

Based upon this, it seems that non asexual people can relate to autochorrisexuality despite experiencing sexual attraction. I think the difference with us is that because we don’t experience a desire towards people for sexual intimacy, people don’t expect us to have any type of sexually-related feelings

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47 minutes ago, Mizulyn said:

is it possible to be a demisexual and autochorissexual at the same time?

The term autochorissexuality was coined by Anthony Bogaert in his book 'Asexuality', so it is a term that was originally specifically for asexuals, but if demisexuals or sexual people relate to it too, I don't see why they wouldn't be allowed to identify with it too. It's a paraphilia, not an orientation. I don't see why the paraphilia would be restricted to asexuals if it's clear that non-asexuals can experience it too. Here's the chapter by the way:

Spoiler


7aBUaCN.png

zOtWcHq.png

(And yeah there's some unfortunate stuff in it about trans people. Let's ignore it. He doesn't know what he's talking about. 'autogynephilia'. tch.


 

 

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8 minutes ago, Laurann said:

The term autochorissexuality was coined by Anthony Bogaert in his book 'Asexuality', so it is a term that was originally specifically for asexuals, but if demisexuals or sexual people relate to it too, I don't see why they wouldn't be allowed to identify with it too. It's a paraphilia, not an orientation. I don't see why the paraphilia would be restricted to asexuals if it's clear that non-asexuals can experience it too. Here's the chapter by the way:

  Hide contents

 

7aBUaCN.png

zOtWcHq.png

(And yeah there's some unfortunate stuff in it about trans people. Let's ignore it. He doesn't know what he's talking about. 'autogynephilia'. tch.

 

 

 

 

 

My thought is that ‘allowing’ other people to identify under autochorrisexuality fundamentally changes the definition as well as takes away from the fact that asexuals can have these feelings

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@Star Lion I'm not sure I understand where you are coming from. How would you define autochorissexuality, and how would that definition be fundamentally changed  if autochorissexuality could also be experienced by non-asexuals?

And how would that take away from the fact that asexuals can have 'these feelings' (I assume you mean arousal with 'these feelings'?)?

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letusdeleteouraccounts
On 2/7/2020 at 7:02 AM, Laurann said:

@Star Lion I'm not sure I understand where you are coming from. How would you define autochorissexuality, and how would that definition be fundamentally changed  if autochorissexuality could also be experienced by non-asexuals?

And how would that take away from the fact that asexuals can have 'these feelings' (I assume you mean arousal with 'these feelings'?)?

Autochorissexuality is traditionally defined as having a disconnect with the target of arousal, the disconnect being a non-existing desire for sexual intimacy. When non-asexuals use the label, they are changing the definition. There’s no disconnect and it loses the entire purpose of the word. What non-asexuals are relating to with the fantasies they’re absent from is not what autochorissexuality is in the first place, it’s simply a product of it when it comes to asexuality

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