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Pronouns & the difficulty with reminding people to use them đŸ˜±


Aka El

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Basically just a thread to discuss ways to approach reminding folks who accept you in one way or another to use your pronouns.

 

Asking someone to use the right pronouns when they have already agreed to can sometimes come across as a criticism instead of a gentle reminder. I personally experienced this when trying to deal with my dyslexic mother’s learning curve, me not having enough empathy and patience, and her interpreting my reminders as blunt corrections (which wasn’t entirely untrue).

 

Since then I have a lot more empathy for people struggling to adapt and she has since got her head around it (for the most part), but still struggle with talking to pretty much everyone else about using my pronouns when they forget or refer to me otherwise incorrectly regarding my gender (oof 🙄 this is getting wordy).

 

I want to open this discussion for myself and for anyone else who might benefit from it. If you have any insight on the matter, want to share your own experience(s) or even are struggling with asking in the first place, then feel free to do so.

 

I honestly lost track of where I was going so if this is a bit rambly I apologise, I may edit it to be more cohesive later.

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Sometimes I talk about being disappointed that someone else forgot, as an abstract reminder "this matters to me". (sometimes this triggers a moment of "oh no I hope I didn't do that too".) I put it in my email signature, profile (if anyone looks).

 

But mostly I don't try very hard and resort to hormones, and I'm open about physically transitioning. Let the pronouns fall where they may.

 

My parents still deadname me, I avoid the whole subject with them.

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Before becoming a part of AVEN, I was completely unaware that people could even choose their own pronouns.  

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My family only agreed to call me by male pronouns relatively recently but they know it's something I've wanted for years, so idk when they mess up I don't really correct them because I know they know it's something that matters to me. I just let them make the mistake and correct it themselves if they realize it, which they seem to do most of the time. But this is also because I kinda lost all faith in them over the years so I don't care or expect anything from them anymore...

If I did try to correct them, which I've done only a few times, then I'd just quietly say the right pronoun/word one time and if they catch it and fix it then great and if not then whatever. 

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nutterwithasolderingiron

i think in my case, sometimes it can take a bit to get used to it. i'm always apologetic when i use the wrong pronouns on someone though. 

 

a recent example is my friend started transitioning. it was a bit out of nowhere. i've known her (i'm using her current pronouns) for 16 years and it was a bit of a shock even to people who knew her. so i've had 16 years of thinking of her as "one of the guys" so it's a bit of a big change. but i'm getting a bit better. 

 

personally, i think the major thing is "are they using the wrong pronouns accidentally or with malice?" if the former, then just politely remind them. if the latter, it's not worth having them around. 

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I think the worst part about reminding people is when they go off on some self-pitying rant about how they're "SOSOSOSO sorry" and "I can't believe I did that again" and suddenly I'm the one who has to comfort and reassure the person who hurt me. If I'm talking to someone ignorant, I can deal with that a lot better because I know that they're not worthy of my time or emotional investment. 

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letusdeleteouraccounts

I’ve accidentally misgendered my friends often; new pronouns or pronouns that don’t match a person’s appearance take time to get used to. I almost always correct myself after using the wrong pronouns because I quickly realize that I made the accident. Just correct them with the pronoun and they’ll eventually start getting it right more often and correct themselves more often. And don’t make them feel bad about it, unless they’re misgendering you on purpose for some reason. 

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I'm closeted to nearly everyone so no one uses my pronouns IRL. I have one friend who does know (and is extremely supportive 😊) and, since we mostly communicate via text and my native language is gendered, I try to ''de-gender'' the adjectives I use for myself, sometimes with weird results. That made them remember well enough and even participate in this linguistic, ahem, creativity. Fun times. Do you speak any language that allows you to do that? 

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Janus the Fox

I do not expect anyone to be accurate with pronouns, though my non-preference and open choice for any of those plays a part in that.  Just a slight small reminders if nothing more. 

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What do people think about having a badge with it on? 

Thanks

Ge (them/they)

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On 1/27/2020 at 8:28 PM, anisotrophic said:

Sometimes I talk about being disappointed that someone else forgot, as an abstract reminder "this matters to me". (sometimes this triggers a moment of "oh no I hope I didn't do that too".) I put it in my email signature, profile (if anyone looks).

 

But mostly I don't try very hard and resort to hormones, and I'm open about physically transitioning. Let the pronouns fall where they may.

 

My parents still deadname me, I avoid the whole subject with them.

I try to avoid doing that first part unless it comes up in conversation naturally or I can direct the conversation there without it being forced. Honestly it isn’t a bad strategy, just can hard to implement all the time (for me anyhow).

 

Adding pronouns to your email/social media is another one that’s really good but personally difficult and could be for someone who isn’t fully out to everyone they know, but definitely a goal of mine 😁.

 

Anyhow, thanks for sharing 😊 I really appreciate it and I hope that other people do as well 💜.

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On 1/27/2020 at 8:42 PM, Starbogen said:

My family only agreed to call me by male pronouns relatively recently but they know it's something I've wanted for years, so idk when they mess up I don't really correct them because I know they know it's something that matters to me. I just let them make the mistake and correct it themselves if they realize it, which they seem to do most of the time. But this is also because I kinda lost all faith in them over the years so I don't care or expect anything from them anymore...

If I did try to correct them, which I've done only a few times, then I'd just quietly say the right pronoun/word one time and if they catch it and fix it then great and if not then whatever. 

I hear you. I had the same reaction in my own version of this with some of my friends and my mother for a good while so I can definitely empathise, though I can’t know exactly how you feel. 

 

I really hope that your situation improves and hopefully something here (or anywhere really) will at least spark a new idea or strategy for you to use 💜

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On 1/27/2020 at 11:20 PM, nutterwithasolderingiron said:

i think in my case, sometimes it can take a bit to get used to it. i'm always apologetic when i use the wrong pronouns on someone though. 

 

a recent example is my friend started transitioning. it was a bit out of nowhere. i've known her (i'm using her current pronouns) for 16 years and it was a bit of a shock even to people who knew her. so i've had 16 years of thinking of her as "one of the guys" so it's a bit of a big change. but i'm getting a bit better. 

 

personally, i think the major thing is "are they using the wrong pronouns accidentally or with malice?" if the former, then just politely remind them. if the latter, it's not worth having them around. 

It’s great to hear that you’re trying, I know a lot of people who find changing their perceptions difficult will just give up or use the difficulty as an excuse.

 

I 100% agree with you on the “malice vs mistake” front and I really wish more people would take that approach, especially on major social media platforms and in media as it’s part of what makes correcting someone so difficult for some people (i.e they don’t want to be seen as the same volatile humans who haters love to hate).

 

Honestly I kinda suck at responding to stuff cohesively but thank you for sharing and best of luck with getting your head around it all 😁

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1 hour ago, Gethealien said:

What do people think about having a badge with it on? 

Thanks

Ge (them/they)

I’ve done this and it definitely helps somewhat, though people can simply not see it sometimes so it’s 100% effective.

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On 1/28/2020 at 3:02 PM, PoeciMeta said:

I'm closeted to nearly everyone so no one uses my pronouns IRL. I have one friend who does know (and is extremely supportive 😊) and, since we mostly communicate via text and my native language is gendered, I try to ''de-gender'' the adjectives I use for myself, sometimes with weird results. That made them remember well enough and even participate in this linguistic, ahem, creativity. Fun times. Do you speak any language that allows you to do that? 

That’s really sweet, I hope that you get to experience that with everyone you know in the future but for now its good that you have at least one person 😊.

 

I only speak a little bit of any of those languages and the one I speak more or tends to have neutral terms for plurals (which I would use for “they/them” kinda stuff). It does sound fun though so maybe one day I’ll try it, but I gotta learn more French/German/etc. 

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I'm lucky in that my family and friends have all been very good at adapting; they don't slip up very often, and when they do, they generally correct themselves on the next mention of me and just keep going. That's all fine and great.

 

But I have had a lot of trouble with how to broach the subject to newer people. I do put my pronouns on social media, but that's not... really a place where I interact much. I haven't done so in my e-mail signature, although I've gone back and forth about that. I guess I'm worried it might not be seen as professional, but on the other hand, people might appreciate it. I don't know. (As it is, they tend to guess the form of address to use, because my name is neutral.)

 

There's one particular group of people I'm really intending to bring it up with - and I did check 'other' for gender on a form related to this some time back, so it's kind of a reminder, at least if they were paying attention - but it's hard enough for me to just bring up any subject with people I haven't known for a long time, so I keep clamming up about it. I've even considered a t-shirt or something really obvious, but that seems like perhaps a bit much. I don't know. I'm bad at talking to people.

 

1 hour ago, Gethealien said:

What do people think about having a badge with it on? 

Thanks

Ge (them/they)

I've done this at conventions and unfortunately at least so far I've found that, with rare exceptions, the people who have noticed it are also trans/nonbinary and most people seem to just not notice it. Now, I could probably try a larger one (the one I have is fairly small, and also grey, so it doesn't stand out terribly much), and actually taking the step of pointing to it might help as well. It does at least help.

 

As a reminder it would probably work really well. I haven't tried it in that situation.

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On 1/28/2020 at 3:02 PM, PoeciMeta said:

I'm closeted to nearly everyone so no one uses my pronouns IRL. I have one friend who does know (and is extremely supportive 😊) and, since we mostly communicate via text and my native language is gendered, I try to ''de-gender'' the adjectives I use for myself, sometimes with weird results. That made them remember well enough and even participate in this linguistic, ahem, creativity. Fun times. Do you speak any language that allows you to do that? 

I do this! My language in English so I just use They a lot.

8 hours ago, Aka El said:

I’ve done this and it definitely helps somewhat, though people can simply not see it sometimes so it’s 100% effective.

I just thought maybe for when out and about for people I don't know? I get that not everyone would see it just wondered.

8 hours ago, Remmirath said:

There's one particular group of people I'm really intending to bring it up with - and I did check 'other' for gender on a form related to this some time back, so it's kind of a reminder, at least if they were paying attention - but it's hard enough for me to just bring up any subject with people I haven't known for a long time, so I keep clamming up about it. I've even considered a t-shirt or something really obvious, but that seems like perhaps a bit much. I don't know. I'm bad at talking to people.

 

I've done this at conventions and unfortunately at least so far I've found that, with rare exceptions, the people who have noticed it are also trans/nonbinary and most people seem to just not notice it. Now, I could probably try a larger one (the one I have is fairly small, and also grey, so it doesn't stand out terribly much), and actually taking the step of pointing to it might help as well. It does at least help.

 

As a reminder it would probably work really well. I haven't tried it in that situation.

Okay cool thank you.

 

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  • 2 months later...

Recently joined 2 D&D groups (one a little after the other) and have had a some interesting interactions with the folks there regarding pronouns so I thought I'd share. I prefaced joining both (discussing it with the DM online) with a kinda disclaimer, like "hey, I'm nonbinary and some folks don't like that. If there's those kinds of people in your group I'm probably not a good match" and it seemed to be okay with both.

 

In the first group, the DM apparently forgot immediately, has made no effort, and never told the others (despite me asking him to). One player doesn't really understand what NB is, but is cool with it as long as he doesn't have to do anything. Another guy doesn't know much but has taken an active interest in understanding and getting my pronouns. There's one player who I have never met as she's been MIA for the last few months, and the last one is just super nice and I honestly don't know if already had a decent grasp of it or is just so nice that she's just accepted it without blinking.

 

In the second group, the DM actually checked and has made an effort, but struggles with learning english and uses pretty much every pronoun interchangeably for everyone/thing. There's two players who are 100% trying but forget occasionally and the last player is also NB and has actually been awesome at reminding people (and in turn has reminded me to remind them) when they mess up.

 

All in all two very different experiences, but I've been lucky enough to find at least 1 person in each group who I can have as a kind of anchor. Hopefully my weird strategy continues to keep me in groups I can feel safe in, but it can also be kinda awkward so I guess I recommend it for folks who feel comfortable doing so? Anyhow, D&D is awesome and everyone should try it XD.

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I just recently came out to my friend group (and holy poop they took it a lot better than I thought they would, the one that I had told before that was weird about it has started doing better now, mainly peer pressure, but I’ll take it).
 

They’re still kinda figuring it out, but we do this thing in the group chat where a convo will happen like this: 

1: their going to the whatever

2: *they’re

1: (some joke or something teasing)

We are major grammar police, all four of us. So, now that they know my name and pronouns, if they use the wrong one, I’ll just go *Jay or *they. (Usually followed by an apology from them, but that’s cool, no harm done, it’s been like two weeks). 
 

Irl (or over the phone), they normally just say my name to get my attention or to check that the Wi-Fi is still working. So, I usually wait a beat to see if they correct it, and ignore that attempt at getting my attention. If they repeat the wrong name, I’ll just sort of shake my head a little and go “wrong name.” That sounds weird in writing, but it works with the right tone of voice and stuff. Again, I’ll usually get an apology, which I just kinda shrug off (apologies are weird) and we continue.

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  • 3 weeks later...
On 4/18/2020 at 2:49 AM, Aka El said:

 

In the second group, the DM actually checked and has made an effort, but struggles with learning english and uses pretty much every pronoun interchangeably for everyone/thing. There's two players who are 100% trying but forget occasionally and the last player is also NB and has actually been awesome at reminding people (and in turn has reminded me to remind them) when they mess up.

 

 

I once had to have a root canal (the reasons for it are a wild-but-irrelevant story) from a dentist whose first language was Farsi (Persian), which doesn't have gendered pronouns.  He misgendered everyone, and got "husband" and "wife" confused.

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On 4/18/2020 at 2:49 AM, Aka El said:

Recently joined 2 D&D groups (one a little after the other) and have had a some interesting interactions with the folks there regarding pronouns so I thought I'd share. I prefaced joining both (discussing it with the DM online) with a kinda disclaimer, like "hey, I'm nonbinary and some folks don't like that. If there's those kinds of people in your group I'm probably not a good match" and it seemed to be okay with both.

 

 

The RPG community is strange, since it's split pretty evenly between queer college kids and neckbearded basement-dwellers.  I'm a DM, and I try to choose my players carefully.

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anisotrophic
On 4/17/2020 at 11:49 PM, Aka El said:

the DM apparently forgot immediately, has made no effort, and never told the others (despite me asking him to)

I’ve got one guy I work with that’s great but basically “cranky about gender” (not a right/wrong thing, just stick in the mud). Then one meeting he was like “your voice sounds croaky” and I’m like “lol that’s because I’ve been on testosterone for eight months”.

 

Sorry... but honestly... one big reason I started T, is I just didn’t feel like asking for a pronoun change was very effective. At best, it revealed who wanted to be polite — not changing “what they really thought of me”. Being on T now has made me so idgaf about pronouns: if people start feeling weird about the dead pronoun, jokes on them.

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2 hours ago, anisotrophic said:

I’ve got one guy I work with that’s great but basically “cranky about gender” (not a right/wrong thing, just stick in the mud). Then one meeting he was like “your voice sounds croaky” and I’m like “lol that’s because I’ve been on testosterone for eight months”.

 

Sorry... but honestly... one big reason I started T, is I just didn’t feel like asking for a pronoun change was very effective. At best, it revealed who wanted to be polite — not changing “what they really thought of me”. Being on T now has made me so idgaf about pronouns: if people start feeling weird about the dead pronoun, jokes on them.

I hear yah, though unfortunately for me, hormones won't really change my voice :/

I'm super glad for you though! It's awesome to hear that you've got something that works for you (I love hearing stories like that, probably because the queer pride in me is proud, but also living vicariously through them).

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anisotrophic
1 hour ago, Aka El said:

though unfortunately for me, hormones won't really change my voice :/

Oof yeah it’s slow in the other direction (but the zaza I mentioned in another thread decided to try it anyway, tbh they suggest it to *me* first, I was stuck in a mindset that I had to be binary trans to do hormones 😂 then they tried it too 😄). I feel a bit guilty I can get away with being lazy on other stuff to change perception, T is so dramatic.

 

Going the other direction leans so much more on social convention (changing/breaking) stuff, I can only stand in admiration. People are soooooo hard to budge in their perceptions, even if you get a polite behavior change.
 

I really enjoy it for other reasons though, experiencing what it feels like to be in this hormonal state. It affects my emotions (definitely a mixed bag imo), and helps me feel like I “really am” a mixed gender. Maybe I’ll switching back someday, I like that it’s something I can control.

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 5/13/2020 at 2:38 AM, anisotrophic said:

Oof yeah it’s slow in the other direction (but the zaza I mentioned in another thread decided to try it anyway, tbh they suggest it to *me* first, I was stuck in a mindset that I had to be binary trans to do hormones 😂 then they tried it too 😄). I feel a bit guilty I can get away with being lazy on other stuff to change perception, T is so dramatic.

 

Going the other direction leans so much more on social convention (changing/breaking) stuff, I can only stand in admiration. People are soooooo hard to budge in their perceptions, even if you get a polite behavior change.
 

I really enjoy it for other reasons though, experiencing what it feels like to be in this hormonal state. It affects my emotions (definitely a mixed bag imo), and helps me feel like I “really am” a mixed gender. Maybe I’ll switching back someday, I like that it’s something I can control.

That's awesome for them! I've been thinking a lot about medically transitioning tbh and it's always great to hear about other folks who are going through what I might in my little hypotheticals. I get both the feeling of having to be binary to take steps to transition and the thing about T, though the second one is more because like an informed imagination than first hand empathy.

 

I often find myself wishing I had known about my gender sooner or gotten over my insecurities/internalised phobias quicker, but I try to remind myself of how far I've come and appreciate the level of self acceptance I've actually achieved, even if it means my transition (should I choose to go down that road) might not be "perfect"

 

Also, and this is basically just a kinda funny worry I have about hormones, one of the things that can happen is your attraction changing. I don't care who I like, but girls (and trans-feminine folks) are just so gosh darn beautiful that I don't wanna stop appreciating them 😂 (I get the like "holy shit you're hot" thing, but for aesthetic attraction all the time when I'm in the city and I love it)

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anisotrophic
On 5/20/2020 at 8:31 PM, Aka El said:

I often find myself wishing I had known about my gender sooner or gotten over my insecurities/internalised phobias quicker, but I try to remind myself of how far I've come and appreciate the level of self acceptance I've actually achieved, even if it means my transition (should I choose to go down that road) might not be "perfect"

Ah, yeah, I feel so late to the game after four decades of life! But I'm super thankful to be here now. More complex gender identity wasn't an "option" I realized I had when I was younger. I guess
 I value the experiences I had, rather than regret them.

 

On 5/20/2020 at 8:31 PM, Aka El said:

Also, and this is basically just a kinda funny worry I have about hormones, one of the things that can happen is your attraction changing. I don't care who I like, but girls (and trans-feminine folks) are just so gosh darn beautiful that I don't wanna stop appreciating them 😂 (I get the like "holy shit you're hot" thing, but for aesthetic attraction all the time when I'm in the city and I love it)

Yeah, I wondered about this a lot. I didn't worry too much about it, since my partner isn't very interested in sex & if I change that might be interesting to experience


So many factors to wonder about.
* maybe orientation changes due to internalized gender roles

* maybe orientation changes due to social acceptance

* maybe orientation changes due to behavioral changes in sexual aggressiveness & spontaneous vs. responsive desire
* maybe orientation is influenced by attraction to what you want
* maybe orientation is influenced by dysphoria & repulsion to what you can't have
* maybe orientation is influenced by behavior & interpersonal dynamics & bonding, which are influenced by hormonal state

* maybe orientation is influenced by sexual response to visual triggers & suggestion, and maybe that's influenced by arousal responsiveness due to hormonal state


So far I haven't been attracted to anyone new, the people I'm attracted to already hasn't changed. Orientation changes happen in a minority of transitions (but a substantial minority
 unclear how it interrelates to hormones per se). I wonder if people that are going to change expressed orientation dramatically have a suspicion it's going to happen.

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On 5/22/2020 at 11:46 PM, anisotrophic said:

Ah, yeah, I feel so late to the game after four decades of life! But I'm super thankful to be here now. More complex gender identity wasn't an "option" I realized I had when I was younger. I guess
 I value the experiences I had, rather than regret them.

 

Yeah, I wondered about this a lot. I didn't worry too much about it, since my partner isn't very interested in sex & if I change that might be interesting to experience


So many factors to wonder about.
* maybe orientation changes due to internalized gender roles

* maybe orientation changes due to social acceptance

* maybe orientation changes due to behavioral changes in sexual aggressiveness & spontaneous vs. responsive desire
* maybe orientation is influenced by attraction to what you want
* maybe orientation is influenced by dysphoria & repulsion to what you can't have
* maybe orientation is influenced by behavior & interpersonal dynamics & bonding, which are influenced by hormonal state

* maybe orientation is influenced by sexual response to visual triggers & suggestion, and maybe that's influenced by arousal responsiveness due to hormonal state


So far I haven't been attracted to anyone new, the people I'm attracted to already hasn't changed. Orientation changes happen in a minority of transitions (but a substantial minority
 unclear how it interrelates to hormones per se). I wonder if people that are going to change expressed orientation dramatically have a suspicion it's going to happen.

I didn't even realise how much I didn't know (or had assumed) until now! Glad to be corrected ofc, but it's gonna take me a while to process all the new info 😂

 

Also, it's wonderful to hear from trans and nonbinary folks of different generations so thank you for sharing 💜

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