Jump to content

Women agree: PIV is meh.


WoodwindWhistler

Recommended Posts

Okay I'll be honest @Anthracite_Impreza I actually didn't understand any of the car stuff you said, haha. I'm just assuming you didn't miss anything because I agree with everything else you said here.. the parts I understand anyway :P Cars are a bit like math for me, I don't understand either of them ehe.

 

But yeah you hit the nail on the head. And I think @uhtred did too when he suggested the argument itself may just be that one specific person is assuming we may all be making this up or just saying it as a way to gang up on them or something. I have met aces who truly believe that orgasm is the only point of sex and it's not pleasurable otherwise, and they sometimes think others (sexuals etc) are making stuff up if they say otherwise. That could be what's happening here with regards to the argument that's been happening. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
Anthracite_Impreza
5 minutes ago, Pan Ficto. (on hiatus?) said:

Okay I'll be honest @Anthracite_Impreza I actually didn't understand any of the car stuff you said, haha. I'm just assuming you didn't miss anything because I agree with everything else you said here.. the parts I understand anyway :P Cars are a bit like math for me, I don't understand either of them ehe

I don't like comparing cars and sex cos it makes me uncomfortable and grossed out, but let's say "adrenaline rush = big O" (yes I'm childish and repulsed and can't say it). When you're driving fast, overtaking, drifting, any sort of potentially risky driving, you get an adrenaline rush. That adrenaline rush is fun; there's nothing quite as primal as that feeling, correct? It's a base instinct that for some reason, despite being in danger, we generally like and want again.

 

On the opposite side, there's also something very pleasing about the graceful ballet of being at one with a car - the smooth, coordinated drive through a scenic landscape where you can be together and become bonded by knowing exactly how they're gonna respond, exactly when you need to brake, throttle and coast, exactly how fast you can take a corner or when to up and down gear. I can tell you to within a few psi how much pressure is in Clutch's individual tyres just by how he's handling, cos of how long we've been together and how much we're "at one".

 

So what I'm saying is that yes, the adrenaline rush is awesome, it's definitely something I'd be crushed to never experience again, but the less intense "oneness" is equally important. These things vary depending on who I'm driving - more intimate with Clutch, more racer with Blitz, and definitely more reserved and cautious with other cars.

 

These are the things I convert to when I try to understand sexuals. So going by that, am I right or wrong?

Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Anthracite_Impreza said:

So going by that, am I right or wrong?

Oh you're absolutely correct. It's different for everyone, and varies from partner to partner sometimes as much as it varies from person to person. You summed it up really well ^_^

Link to post
Share on other sites
DuranDuranfan
19 hours ago, Skycaptain said:

Purely from a scientific perspective, the female should orgasm first. From the biological and anatomical science perspective, the idea is that during piv sex tactile stimulation of the penis (contact with the vaginal walls) projects the male towards orgasm. The pelvic bones of the male contacting the clitoris project the female towards orgasm. At the appropriate moment the female experiences orgasm, her vaginal wall muscles repeatedly contract, sending the male into orgasm, whilst simultaneously enhancing the propulsion of spermatozoa through the cervix, into the womb, where, as a throwback to pre-homosapiens when sex was only for procreation, an ova was present awaiting fertilisation 

An ovum, actually. Ova is plural. However it’s possible that two or more will be there simultaneously. That’s how fraternal twins or triplets result.

Link to post
Share on other sites
Whore*of*Mensa
20 hours ago, uhtred said:

there may also be some  asexual / allo confusion going on here.  I know my near-asexual wife has never quite understood / believed  that when we do sexual things, actions that cause the fastest orgasm are not the most enjoyable.  For her they are pretty much the same thing. 

I'm graysexual and I don't think I'm confused. Also, I don't like the implication that there's a right and a wrong way to be - you seem to be saying your wife doesn't understand her own enjoyment?

Link to post
Share on other sites
Whore*of*Mensa
19 hours ago, uhtred said:

I do agree that research is  better.  Is there a paper on the study that they reference, just for my own interest?  

 

There is a fair amount of research and reading you can do, from a variety of perspectives. I'm pretty sure a quick Google search would lead you to a number of sources. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
Whore*of*Mensa
On 2/2/2020 at 2:24 PM, Philip027 said:

It's almost like people should be asking their sexual partners what they like (and that they should be honest about their preferences) instead of relying on surveys or statistics or something.

 

What a concept :rolleyes:

 

On 2/2/2020 at 2:31 PM, CBC said:

Too logical, Philip.

 

On 2/2/2020 at 2:57 PM, CBC said:

I don't know how one is that close to a person emotionally that they're in a relationship but can't talk about sex openly, but I guess it takes all sorts as they say.

Maybe I'm oversensitive but the above sounds pretty condescending and patronising to me, and it's quite clearly referring to me/what I said. 

 

Here is where you completely dismiss the experience of anyone over 30 as irrelevant, because - women over 30 don't count/don't matter/aren't part of the general population?? 

 

On 2/2/2020 at 8:45 PM, Pan Ficto. (on hiatus?) said:

That survey you referenced is also flawed, because of the age groups of the women involved. If it focused solely on women under 30ish the results would be veeeery different

 

On 2/2/2020 at 8:45 PM, Pan Ficto. (on hiatus?) said:

Many of the older women in the survey (like 50+) probably don't even know about the "how to give yourself a squirting orgasm and teach your partner how to as well"

 You are aware that the 60s happened, right?  Ever heard of Betty Dodson? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Betty_Dodson

 

The current generation didn't invent sex, though they always think they did, as the saying goes 😂😂😂

 

On 2/2/2020 at 8:45 PM, Pan Ficto. (on hiatus?) said:

Some of us have a lot of sexual experience with the general population.

OK, so why would you say this if you weren't trying to imply that I don't have experience with the general population?

 

On 2/2/2020 at 8:45 PM, Pan Ficto. (on hiatus?) said:

Girls are just different now and have different sexual experiences than many of the much older women in that survey (if I'm accurate that it was conducted on women aged 18-99?).

As above - look up the 1960s. And please clarify at what age women cease to 'count' - is there a cut-off at 40 maybe, after which your opinions and experiences of sex no longer matter?

 

On 2/3/2020 at 1:14 AM, Pan Ficto. (on hiatus?) said:

The OP stated that they want to literally change the way women are having sex... To another form of sex that certainly not all women get anything out of.

So, i gather from later posts that you have an ongoing issue with the OP. This particular thread certainly doesn't say anything like that statement above, but as I suspected this is part of an ongoing feud hence why the reaction which is completely disproportionate to the OP. This is why I got confused, and slightly caught in the crossfire

Link to post
Share on other sites
Whore*of*Mensa
23 hours ago, Pan Ficto. (on hiatus?) said:

None of us were expecting to be told our opinions don't count as we 'don't have enough experience

Neither was I. 

 

Nor to be told my opinions don't count because I'm asexual and therefore don't understand about sex. 

 

17 hours ago, Pan Ficto. (on hiatus?) said:
20 hours ago, uhtred said:

there may also be some  asexual / allo confusion going on here.  I know my near-asexual wife has never quite understood / believed  that when we do sexual things, actions that cause the fastest orgasm are not the most enjoyable.  For her they are pretty much the same thing. 

Yes I think that might be the issue here. I honestly can't see what else would be causing this.

I haven't really explained my own point of view, because it quite quickly became obvious that nobody would listen/read it anyway. So I can see why you can't understand why I'm frustrated. It's been a learning experience for me, I will say. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
Whore*of*Mensa
22 hours ago, Serran said:

And, also, I think you're missing the history cause this is what... the 5th? anti-PiV thing from the OP so it's like... at this point... what's the purpose or intention of all of these posts? 

Ok, so as I said above - there's obviously something going on that I wasn't aware of, which explains why everyone seemed illogically fired up about something pretty innocuous. And I got caught up in it, and felt hugely patronised. I probably did over-react but also felt myself to be in the middle of a huge over-reaction, given what was actually said in the OP. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

Maybe I'm oversensitive but the above sounds pretty condescending and patronising to me, and it's quite clearly referring to me/what I said.

I actually was referring to the topic as a whole, not specifically to you.  You were spot on about the snark, though.

Link to post
Share on other sites
Whore*of*Mensa
12 minutes ago, Philip027 said:

I actually was referring to the topic as a whole, not specifically to you.  You were spot on about the snark, though.

Yep. Well it's good that you have a happy relationship anyway, and a good sex life. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Whore*of*Mensa said:

OK, so why would you say this if you weren't trying to imply that I don't have experience with the general population?

...I wasn't trying to imply that at all. I was just saying that being part of the general population we should also have some idea of how they (the general population) think and feel without needing to rely completely on a study as you were suggesting we do. 

 

Actually, you know what...

 

 

@Whore*of*Mensa

 

You have taken every comment I have made (as well as comments others have made) and perceived them as something personal attacks against you. You have twisted my words and the words of many others into personal attacks when we were making general comments about the topic at hand, including the article and the opinion of the OP.

 

All anyone is saying is that people should be allowed to choose the kind of sex they want to enjoy. Yet you are arguing incessantly with everyone (me especially) without having really even outlined your own stance. You even admitted that you haven't shared your own opinion here:

 

2 hours ago, Whore*of*Mensa said:

haven't really explained my own point of view, because it quite quickly became obvious that nobody would listen/read it anyway

That is NOT a way to conduct a conversation.

 

Instead of telling us what you think, you have just attacked much of what we have said. That is NOT productive and just ends up with multiple people having to defend themselves as opposed to any productive conversation happening. 

 

Rather than sharing your own opinion (which I assure you, we would have read - we aren't the monsters you seem to think we are) you have quoted comments that were not about you at all, and taken them as attacks against you. Repeatedly. 

 

You accuse us of making assumptions, yet you didn't give us any real info and choose to actively ignore much of what we have said (by your own admission) in favour of making assumptions about us.

 

You said we are all basing our opinions on porn and the internet instead of sharing our own experience, when every single one of us had shared personal experience already.

 

You said we don't have enough experience to have an opinion, even though most of the 'us' you are referring to are 1 - sexual and 2 - have extensive relationship and sexual histories. 

 

Those are just two examples of many of the massive, quite offensive assumptions you have made about myself and others commenting here.

 

So yeah, I can see due to the state of mind you seem to be in, there isn't any point in continuing this, as there is nothing I can say that you won't take as a personal attack even though none of it is about you. 

 

1 hour ago, Whore*of*Mensa said:

And I got caught up in it, and felt hugely patronised.

Sorry you felt that way, but again none of it was about you. We were sharing our perspective on the attitudes outlined in that article, and on what the OP said.

 

Maybe try stating your own opinion? which I honestly don't think could be very different from our own. There's nothing you can really say which wouldn't amount to "women should be allowed to choose the kind of sex they want to enjoy"  ..so really at the end of the day, I'm sure we are all actually in agreement. Even if not, I'd still actually like to hear what you have to say -  what your actual opinion is, instead of you just attacking everything we say without sharing your own stance.

 

3 hours ago, Whore*of*Mensa said:

So, i gather from later posts that you have an ongoing issue with the OP.

It's as simple as us disagreeing with the article and with the statements about sex made in the opening post. Nothing to do with them as a person. Now I ask, share your own opinion, so we can see what you think about it. :cake:

Link to post
Share on other sites
Whore*of*Mensa
3 minutes ago, Pan Ficto. (on hiatus?) said:

Yet you are arguing incessantly with everyone (me especially)

Actually I have been directing all my comments at you because you've directly addressed me rather than doing the passive aggressive snarky thing - which I massively respect you for - so I'm really sorry about that. Not all the comments were about you at all.

 

It's just hard to respond directly to vague, deniable, passive-aggressive stuff...it's confusing and gas-lighty...Personally I prefer aggressive aggression. I know where I am with that 😂

 

I don't actually want to share personal experience of sex, not in the right place for that, all I can say is that some of the article in the OP resonated with me and I suspect that is because I come from that same demographic. Which may well be alien to younger women, but those experiences are real to women like me. So it does feel a little personal when those experiences get dismissed out of hand.

 

However, I think we were all basically agreeing that it's a matter of choice, anyway! 

 

I've shared an article on another thread in this forum which does articulate some of what I'm trying to say, but it's something I'm still trying to work out and could only discuss with a friendly audience. I don't think right now is the moment to express myself but maybe another time 🍰 

Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Whore*of*Mensa said:

I'm graysexual and I don't think I'm confused. Also, I don't like the implication that there's a right and a wrong way to be - you seem to be saying your wife doesn't understand her own enjoyment?

No, I'm saying that she doesn't understand mine.  To her Orgasm == enjoyment.  To me it doesn't. I believe that is how it works for her but she has difficulty believing that it is how it works for me.  

 

with regard to this conversation, this issue is that an activity that doesn't produce orgasms may still be enjoyable. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
Whore*of*Mensa
3 minutes ago, uhtred said:

No, I'm saying that she doesn't understand mine.  To her Orgasm == enjoyment.  To me it doesn't. I believe that is how it works for her but she has difficulty believing that it is how it works for me.  

 

with regard to this conversation, this issue is that an activity that doesn't produce orgasms may still be enjoyable. 

I am really trying not to get into this too much, but I just wonder if you personally would be happy if you had sex without an orgasm, most of the time? 

Link to post
Share on other sites

I think part of this is that the original ARTICLE (not post ) is pretty hostile, and that got things started:  (sorry italics in the original are not font scaling correctly). Its a constant tirade about how men don't care about their partners pleasure, and how women dislike typical sexual activities.   This doesn't match the experience of men or women here. 

 

The at the end - I left in larger font. Its basically saying that women are never asexual, their partners are just bad lovers.    Seems deeply offensive to a large percentage of the people on this site - most of whom are either asexual or in a relationship with someone who is asexual.  

 

They shove it in and out until they come.

 

I know we’re all meant to pretend that what happens to our bodies when men porn fuck us at the right angle is at least as pleasurable and satisfying as a clitoral orgasm, if not more so

but the actual experience of a g-spot-only orgasm, if we’re really honest with ourselves, is not anything you’d call pleasure

 

And that, obviously, is a problem. It is a problem that most sex still happens in a way that is disinterested in whether or not there is a severe pleasure disparity between participants. In a healthy world, sex would happen because both partners want to experience sexual pleasure, not because one partner wants to experience sexual pleasure and the other partner has been pressured into it by guilt, by marital expectations, by manipulation, by fear of losing a provider for her children, or by a society-enforced sense of obligation

 

waiting patiently while she peels back the layers of culturally-enforced sexual subjugation to discover her own organic sexual desire for herself.

 

When female sexual pleasure is treated with the same importance as male sexual pleasure, sex looks nothing like what you see in porn. 

 

And minus the obligatory face mask of reproductive fluids, this is how most couples tend to have sex. It’s a straight line toward the male orgasm, with perhaps some polite gestures in the direction of her pleasure known as “foreplay” if he’s feeling generous, and she’s welcome to try and find some way to get off before he ejaculates and loses interest. 

 

 The reason most women fake orgasms during sex is because they feel pressure from the man to get off, and to get off a certain way. 

 

 Depending on how conscious the man’s sexuality is, he can either jerk off when he’s horny until she’s ready for him, or he can learn to channel his powerful male sexual energy into creativity and self development. Contrary to the misogynistic doctrine of our culture, men are able to go an indefinite period of time without inserting their penises into a body, a

 

 

 

Any man who loves his lover can have a woman who desires sex from him the way he desires it from her; he just has to be willing to work through some layers of cultural conditioning with her to get there. And then the world will be freer by that much.

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, Whore*of*Mensa said:

I am really trying not to get into this too much, but I just wonder if you personally would be happy if you had sex without an orgasm, most of the time? 

I don't see why this is so complicated.    I want to get an orgasm as some point during sexual activity (though I often don't BTW).  So does my wife.  The difference is that my wife basically "just" wants an orgasm. She wants me to do the things that get her of quickly and not much else. 

 

I much prefer taking time.   The things I most enjoy are not the things that get me off most quickly. 

 

So, for example , she likes me to give her oral for a couple or minutes to warm up, but then wants me to switch to a vibrator to get her off quickly.  I can get her off with oral, but she almost never wants that because it takes longer. OTOH I enjoy doing oral for her (at least while she is enjoying it) even though I would never get off just from doing that. 

 

Similarly some women enjoy PIV even though they will not O that way.  The will still get an O (or several) at some point through some other activity.  

 

The key is that there are lots of sexual activities that are enjoyable to some people but which themselves do not produce an O.    A good romantic sex session can be an hour or or more  of very enjoyable activity, of during which someone only gets a couple of O's. lasting less than a minute total. 

 

Many women can get off with a vibrator in a couple of minutes any time that they want.  Still many of them prefer sex with a partner. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, Whore*of*Mensa said:

. I don't think right now is the moment to express myself but maybe another time 🍰 

Okay that makes sense, I understand :cake:

 

And sorry that what I said about women under 30 came across that way by, the way. What I was trying to say was that the results themselves (of the study) may be different if it was 20,000 women under 30-40ish, compared to doing the study on women aged 18-99 as I think that website was claiming. Just because there are a lot of people in that demographic that came from a very sexually repressed time where many women were not encouraged to experiment sexually or value their own sexual pleasure :c I know the 60s were different, but I mean.. I remember our 50 year old sex ed teacher (in early 2000s) telling us women weren't actually able to orgasm at all :o She grew up in a time where that kind of thing was massively hush and so had never even tried to have one because she truly didn't believe it was possible. So what I meant was, the results probably be different only compared to how things are now where almost every young woman is literally bombarded with "sex positivity!" "Orgasm yay" "masturbation yay!" (haha) literally every time she opens a mag or clicks on a teen website! Compared to like my 80 year old grandma who got the strap for being caught touching herself when she was little Y_Y Or our sex ed teacher who would be in her 70s now, truly believing women couldn't physically orgasm. We have a very different attitude towards it now so I only meant I personally think the amount of orgasms would be a higher percentage if conducted solely on an audience that grew up with more sex positivity. I didn't mean the older women don't know what they enjoy though!!! I really didn't explain myself well.

 

Okay so to try to say that concisely:

 

If you conducted the study on 20,000 western women who grew up in the past like 20 years, there may be a much higher instance of orgasm due different attitudes and education we now have surrounding sex.

 

Compared to when the same study is done on women aged 18-99, because a lot of those much older women may never have had an orgasm or been taught women can't enjoy sex or whatever, just because of the way education was for so much of the past 100 years. Yes there was a time in the 60s when it was different, but only a certain percentage of those women would have been of the right age to benefit from that!

 

I absolutely wasn't trying to say "you're too old to know what you enjoy" or however it came across. I was just referring to the 18% of penetrative orgasm in the study is all. 

 

I shouldn't have even mentioned it because sometimes I'm not good at explaining stuff (I use too many words!). Sorry :cake:

Link to post
Share on other sites
Whore*of*Mensa

@uhtred I see what you mean, yes, that final paragraph/conclusion is pretty prescriptive and insulting to partners of asexual women. And asexual women. So, yes, I get that. 

 

I suppose as with everything to do with gendered/cultural expectations it's a case of picking through the minefield of blame/defensiveness etc, to get to the truth which is that we are often obeying scripts which are damaging to both partners (ha I've picked up therapy-speech!). It's not about blaming men. It's about realising that we often play the parts that have been assigned to us without questioning them. 

 

And women are/were trained to think that sex must result in PIV for the man to get off..

Link to post
Share on other sites
Whore*of*Mensa
5 minutes ago, uhtred said:

I don't see why this is so complicated.    I want to get an orgasm as some point during sexual activity (though I often don't BTW).  So does my wife.  The difference is that my wife basically "just" wants an orgasm. She wants me to do the things that get her of quickly and not much else. 

 

I much prefer taking time.   The things I most enjoy are not the things that get me off most quickly. 

 

So, for example , she likes me to give her oral for a couple or minutes to warm up, but then wants me to switch to a vibrator to get her off quickly.  I can get her off with oral, but she almost never wants that because it takes longer. OTOH I enjoy doing oral for her (at least while she is enjoying it) even though I would never get off just from doing that. 

 

Similarly some women enjoy PIV even though they will not O that way.  The will still get an O (or several) at some point through some other activity.  

 

The key is that there are lots of sexual activities that are enjoyable to some people but which themselves do not produce an O.    A good romantic sex session can be an hour or or more  of very enjoyable activity, of during which someone only gets a couple of O's. lasting less than a minute total. 

 

Many women can get off with a vibrator in a couple of minutes any time that they want.  Still many of them prefer sex with a partner. 

OK, sorry, too much detail, I'll come back to this and maybe read it later. I've replied just a second ago.

Link to post
Share on other sites
Whore*of*Mensa

@Pan Ficto. (on hiatus?) that makes more sense...

 

I don't know if my parents were very liberal or just quite normal but..they were born in the 1940s and they had this book called 'the Joy of Sex' https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Joy_of_Sex in their drawer - stealing this book was basically the way I got my sex education - pretty sure I'm not the only one as it spent 70 weeks in the bestseller list between 1972 and 1974 😂

 

So, I'm not entirely convinced that everyone in previous generations was repressed...But I get what you were saying! I shouldn't have taken it personally! And there was more repression back then, definitely. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
28 minutes ago, Whore*of*Mensa said:

'the Joy of Sex'

When I was 17 I moved in with my aunt and uncle (I was pretty scared of them both, lol) and I found a copy of that book on their shelf. I snuck it and hid it under my bed heh. One day I got home from school and my aunt said "I vacuumed under your bed today" and I didn't even click what she meant until later on when I checked and the book wasn't there anymore. I was soooooo embarrassed, lol!

Link to post
Share on other sites
Whore*of*Mensa
1 minute ago, Pan Ficto. (on hiatus?) said:

When I was 17 I moved in with my aunt and uncle (I was pretty scared of them both, lol) and I found a copy of that book on their shelf. I snuck it and hid it under my bed heh. One day I got home from school and my aunt said "I vacuumed under your bed today" and I didn't even click what she meant until later on when I checked and the book wasn't there anymore. I was soooooo embarrassed, lol!

😂

Link to post
Share on other sites
Anthracite_Impreza
2 hours ago, Pan Ficto. (on hiatus?) said:

When I was 17 I moved in with my aunt and uncle (I was pretty scared of them both, lol) and I found a copy of that book on their shelf. I snuck it and hid it under my bed heh. One day I got home from school and my aunt said "I vacuumed under your bed today" and I didn't even click what she meant until later on when I checked and the book wasn't there anymore. I was soooooo embarrassed, lol!

I'm so glad I missed out on awkward things like that.

Link to post
Share on other sites
Lord Jade Cross
2 hours ago, Pan Ficto. (on hiatus?) said:

When I was 17 I moved in with my aunt and uncle (I was pretty scared of them both, lol) and I found a copy of that book on their shelf. I snuck it and hid it under my bed heh. One day I got home from school and my aunt said "I vacuumed under your bed today" and I didn't even click what she meant until later on when I checked and the book wasn't there anymore. I was soooooo embarrassed, lol!

For me, an event in my early 20's was the closest thing that got to something like this as my mother, doing some.of her usual snopping, knocked over a small wodden hankerchief box that I was using to hide condoms back when I was trying to figure the whole sex thing out.

 

Im not sure if I was embarassed but definately pissed, and my mother got out of the room when I yelled at her.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...