I went through Reddit in an attempt to understand the gender discussion.

[Galactic Turtle]

Hello humans,

 

Over the past few weeks I've traversed to some pretty strange places on the internet as yet another attempt to wrap my head around the gender discussion and I'm not sure if I get it but I think I at least get the various viewpoints and similarly to finding out I was asexual and not everyone else was just like me it seems almost clear that's what's going on with gender. 

 

So first I wandered over to the most hated community which I found out about via angry tweets about JK Rowling: the Gender Criticals. Their sidebar on Reddit seems pretty simple:

 

1. Human personality: endless permutations.

2. Sex: reproductive system (male/female).

3. Gender: the misconception that personality and sex are somehow intrinsically linked.

4. We don't need more varieties of chains, we need to break the chains.

This side bar I think sums up the specific part of the gender discussion that most people are confused about. I often see it on AVEN as well with people first coming to contemplate their gender identity. A lot if not most of the time they start off by saying something along the lines of "I'm AMAB but I like makeup and feel more comfortable around girls" or "I'm AFAB but makeup grosses me out and I when people use they/them or he/him pronouns for me I really don't mind." At this point someone usually chimes in that gender identity and gender expression are different but for the sake of the individual taking their own steps to figure themselves out they are typically encouraged to go with whichever pronouns they like best. In this sense pronouns seem to equate to choosing a nickname for yourself if your full name just doesn't do it for you. Anywho, once you actually scroll through the actual GC Reddit page you do see some alarming stuff equating trans women specifically with fetishists and trans men specifically with internalized misogyny. While I'm sure this isn't universally untrue, it seems like a pretty stilted and aggressive stance to take on the topic as a whole. 

 

Then I wandered into what... seems to be the closest to a middle ground I could find on this topic: the... truscum? Transmedicalists? Blaire White? And these conversations reinforced what I initially thought was the general consensus on what being trans meant. There was no longer any of the "girls like pink and boys like blue" conversation. It focused pretty much exclusively on managing dysphoria stating that gender dysphoria is what makes one trans. When therapy doesn't cut it, the best thing to do is then take steps to transition. It seems like most consider gender dysphoria to be a mental illness because of the amount of distress it causes and some cite experiencing various levels depression or knowing those who have when surgeries or cosmetic choices made didn't have the mental impact they thought it would have. Also a lot of talk about how detransitioners exist citing these cases as a big reason why not taking a super liberal stance on what being trans is would be beneficial for everyone involved. However if this contingent of people were cis women they'd definitely be called TERFS and it seems like they are largely hated by the rest of the online trans community which I found kind of shocking because my first intro to all of this around 2013 echoed all that was being said here. This might be the equivalent of people assuming asexual people aren't interested in being sexually active.... in which case I can understand their frustrations. Call me a gatekeeper why don't ya.

 

After this I went to spaces where I thought the more active trans communities would be... stuff that was simply called "Transgender." And honestly there I didn't see any what AVEN folks would lovingly call "definition debates," but honestly was just full of articles about transgender things in the news usually focusing on ongoing lawsuits and transgender rights in various countries. Not a lot of comments on these posts but clearly a lot of people have these stories coming across their feed.

 

Lastly I found the more social trans spaces which are a lot like social ace spaces with every other post titles "am I trans?" followed by a fair amount of male/female stereotypes but not always with most other posts using tips and tricks to appear more feminine or masculine for the sake of social transition. Lots of selfies, lots of questions about passing. I can now see how other areas of the internet for these topics are considered to be hostile at best. I did discover ContraPoints who may or may not be hated. Interesting videos but the ones I clicked on that I thought would answer some questions were just more circular in nature.

 

As a bonus along the way I also did hear about an extreme minority of craziness surrounding typically older trans(?) women talking about how they legitimately get periods... that's probably the fetishization the GC crowd thinks is the norm. But I'm pretty sure most trans people find that crazy as well so bye.

 

After all this do I understand better what gender is supposed to mean? Possibly. Or maybe not. I think what I have at least determined is that for some people gender matters quite a bit and for others gender doesn't matter at all. From all the talk I've seen about gender, I've come to the conclusion that gender doesn't apply to me in an internal sense... whatever it is. I reject having a gender identity which might make me a TERF, I have no idea. But I guess I feel the same way about sexuality. The answer is just no. However external expectations surrounding my perceived sex has and will continue to have an impact on me. On the other hand now the next time I see the one trans woman I actually know going on and on about makeup and glitter and nails I'll roll my eyes a bit less... just like I learned to do with my cis female friends. Everyone finds their way eventually.

 

 

[Guest]

Gender matters a lot to some. For me, I am cis and dont care about my own gender. Call me a man or a girl I really dont care. 

 

My wife is trans though (dysphoria wants to change body) so I am really cautious about gender with her. She wants to experience the girly things, like makeup and dresses and being cat called.. just the female experience. Wants boobs (even though I hate mine so dont get it). 

 

So it's different and your trans friend being all girly is understandable given you grew up with all that, they didn't and that reaffirms their identity as a woman. Many become less stereotypically girly as they finish transition and some dont. But, I'm glad you can be a bit more patient with it now you understand more.

[Forest Spirit]

25 minutes ago, Galactic Turtle said:

I think what I have at least determined is that for some people gender matters quite a bit and for others gender doesn't matter at all. From all the talk I've seen about gender, I've come to the conclusion that gender doesn't apply to me in an internal sense... whatever it is.

However external expectations surrounding my perceived sex has and will continue to have an impact on me.

^same, gender is and will probably remain sth I'm personally unable to relate to and stereotypes about how I should be, dress or act due to my biological sex will keep on causing me headaches for the rest of my life.

But interesting research journey!

[Janus the Fox]

I got banned from GenderCritical for simply existing and debating intersex, trans norms and the existence of no gender.  Banned for having a penis.

 

I like a few other spaces like r/transpositive, even if it’s just usually self pictures, r/nonbinary the same, r/agender in a similar way

 

I follow a lot of ask trans Reddit’s, a lot of similarities.

 

I participate and troll r/itsafetish loads of examples that it is just a fetish, from many users that even have transitioned already and that are fed up with it being fetishised.  There’s a mixed bag of members with some of them GenderCritical among others that follow Blanchards Typology Philosophy to extreme lengths.  There are some HRT trans docs there that had to regularly deny patients hormones due to it being a clear fetish that would be harmful to indulge in further hormone replacement.  This is personally amusing to me as myself having no sexuality, gender or little libido.

[Guest]

That's like going through a sewer to find out how digestion works, innit? I'm just kidding please don't hurt me. 

[Acing It]

2 hours ago, Janus DarkFox said:

GenderCritical

Just had a look on there. If you're not born with a vagina you're the enemy. Very friendly and sure to promote equality. Hmmm...

Not sure if a place like that can ever give you an idea of what gender is in a fair and balanced way. We're all part of a gendered society that often works in favour of (white) men but I'm also sure a lot of those (white) men do their best to be kind to women but are unconciously reproducing behaviour and speech they have learnt while growing up. We're all in it together and should find a solution together. Easier said than done in a world where there are those that are mysoginist on purpose but the alternative will only be more polarising.

I only got a very partial and not so positive view of a very small part of (female) society from that website.

[Just Somebody]

Let's break this down, take into consideration that gender identities are a psychossociological subject and throughout these "lens" we can approach and understand it.

 

 

Almost everybody here know that "man", "woman" and the infinite non-binary gender identities are all examples of gender identities.

 

As you can see gender identities are words/names/labels, but for what?

 

Well, here comes the most important part, gender identities are names/words/labels for groups/categories/"boxes" that are social because they are created by people for people, are cultural because different societies from different times and places built different gender identities, and also are historical because they have history (like everything in the universe we live in has).

 

 

The thing with feminism is that the previous feminist waves fought against oppression based on and for freedom of gender expression, specially the second wave feminism (thanks to them women in the western world are more free to do anything a man can or behave like them, like having their jobs and dressing like them, they didn't woke up one day free to do so out of nowhere), they weren't against gender noncomformity of gender expression, they fought for it.

 

 

Gender critical people may criticize that the existence of gender identities, these categorization/separations of people into sociocultural historical groups/categories/"boxes" built by people for people, doesn't do us any good in terms of fighting gender oppression, which usually they only consider gender expression oppression as and often reproduce gender oppression themselves but based on gender identity.

 

 

From a hypothetical gender critical point of "ending with gender identities", their end could happen via 2 ways: 

 

The less likely one - people stop identifying with (considering themselves as part of or represented by) gender identities  (again that again really just a form of sociocultural historical group/category/box separation of people built by people, like many others out there). Also remember that "killing ideas is something very hard".

 

 

The more likely - when gender identities become too much individualistic or personalized as people recognize that no two people are equal in this world and that so everybody experiences their gender identity differently just like we experience our lives differently, so everybody should have their very own unique gender identity that isn't shared with nobody else. 

What would break gender identities because they were meant, as I have to repeat a lot, to be sociocultural historical groups/categories/"boxes" built by people for people, in another words, they were meant to group people together what can't happen if everybody has their own gender identity that they share with nobody like a personality.

[R_1]

1 hour ago, Acing It said:

Just had a look on there. If you're not born with a vagina you're the enemy. Very friendly and sure to promote equality. Hmmm...

r/gendercritical is basically a sub with a hate-boner for about everything. I wouldn't support or recommend going there.

 

The gist of gender is that it depends on who you ask. You got people like me that has no idea what the hell is gender nor have any association with gender though goes by cis out of convenience. I dreamt that I was in a "female body" plenty of time before, and it never actually felt so different, it just felt like a body. Much in the same vein as I do feel now. I seriously doubt that I would feel so different if I was somehow warped to an alternate universe where I'm in a different body. Gender role doesn't exist in my mind, but to others they see it.

[Acing It]

 

1 hour ago, R_1 said:

r/gendercritical is basically a sub with a hate-boner for about everything. I wouldn't support or recommend going there.

 

The gist of gender is that it depends on who you ask. You got people like me that has no idea what the hell is gender nor have any association with gender though goes by cis out of convenience. I dreamt that I was in a "female body" plenty of time before, and it never actually felt so different, it just felt like a body. Much in the same vein as I do feel now. I seriously doubt that I would feel so different if I was somehow warped to an alternate universe where I'm in a different body. Gender role doesn't exist in my mind, but to others they see it.

Thank you. I understand this a bit better now, even with this short explanation. I think that for me, the social implications of having a different body would be very noticable, but the body itself? Not sure. Maybe not because it's what you're used to and suddenly having a different body would take a bit of getting used to but then...

[Calligraphette_Coe]

I seriously think some of us are stuck with dealing with and feeling our dysphoria on the 'Innatism' philosophical paradigm. From Wikipedia

 

Quote

Innatism is a philosophical and epistemological doctrine that holds that the mind is born with ideas/knowledge, and that therefore the mind is not a "blank slate" at birth, as early empiricists such as John Locke claimed. It asserts that not all knowledge is gained from experience and the senses.

I don't know if extends are far as Descartes declaration of 'I think, therefore I am', but I don't think gender and dysphoria is some kind of dichotomy enfored without mercy by the universe ( although, at times, it feels that way with society!).

 

I have often told the few people that I was out to that I felt like a fox among wolves-- I didn't fit in with the 'pack'. And never will because of certain things that happened to my body before birth. But to try to explain it to someone not similarly afflicted? There's no frame of reference so it ends up being a forlorn task. But to some who kept an open mind, they'd be all "Of course! That explains everything-- i just knew it!"

[Just Somebody]

1 hour ago, Calligraphette_Coe said:

I seriously think some of us are stuck with dealing with and feeling our dysphoria on the 'Innatism' philosophical paradigm. From Wikipedia

 

I don't know if extends are far as Descartes declaration of 'I think, therefore I am', but I don't think gender and dysphoria is some kind of dichotomy enfored without mercy by the universe ( although, at times, it feels that way with society!).

 

I have often told the few people that I was out to that I felt like a fox among wolves-- I didn't fit in with the 'pack'. And never will because of certain things that happened to my body before birth. But to try to explain it to someone not similarly afflicted? There's no frame of reference so it ends up being a forlorn task. But to some who kept an open mind, they'd be all "Of course! That explains everything-- i just knew it!"

Nobody is born hating anyone as nobody is also born hating themselves or their bodies. "Contact with society corrupts us and make us hate our bodies."

 

Wikipedia also states that gender dysphoria (word that stands literally to "gender suffering") develops due to our experiences during our lives of interactions with societies with sexist and transphobic cultures that make up the surrounding environment.

 

 

From Wikipedia page on Gender dysphoria: "Some cultures have three defined genders: man, woman, and effeminate man. For example, in Samoa, the fa'afafine, a group of feminine males, are entirely socially accepted. The fa'afafine do not have any of the stigma or distress typically associated in most cultures with deviating from a male/female gender role. This suggests the distress so frequently associated with GID in a Western context is not caused by the disorder itself, but by difficulties encountered from social disapproval by one's culture."

 

Note: they still used erroneously the outdated term "GID" which stands for "Gender Identity Disorder" and so was replaced with "Gender Dysphoria".

[Calligraphette_Coe]

1 hour ago, Just Somebody said:

Nobody is born hating anyone as nobody is also born hating themselves or their bodies. "Contact with society corrupts us and make us hate our bodies."

 

Wikipedia also states that gender dysphoria (word that stands literally to "gender suffering") develops due to our experiences during our lives of interactions with societies with sexist and transphobic cultures that make up the surrounding environment.

 

 

From Wikipedia page on Gender dysphoria: "Some cultures have three defined genders: man, woman, and effeminate man. For example, in Samoa, the fa'afafine, a group of feminine males, are entirely socially accepted. The fa'afafine do not have any of the stigma or distress typically associated in most cultures with deviating from a male/female gender role. This suggests the distress so frequently associated with GID in a Western context is not caused by the disorder itself, but by difficulties encountered from social disapproval by one's culture."

 

Note: they still used erroneously the outdated term "GID" which stands for "Gender Identity Disorder" and so was replaced with "Gender Dysphoria".

I have to disagree, based on my own experiences. There's a definite biological component that can contribute to it that can be attributed to things like DES ( possibly in my case) and/or some intersex condtions such as being a chimera or mosaic. Sure, being sexually assaulted in my teen years didn't help, my being smaller and weaker than the average male ( also due to biological factors ) made life more difficult. Throw in some gynecomatia later on, and there you go-- the perfect person to scapegoat upon.

 

Too, I think the statement ".... are entirely accepted" has to be taken with a grain of salt. Some cultures may hide their disdain better than others, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist-- perhaps only that it's looked down upon a bit less stridently.

 

Sometimes, when I think of my own GID or whatever is the Flavor of the Month name for it, I'm reminded of the words from an old Simon and Garfinkle song:

 

Quote

Hello Darkness my old friend.....

I've come to talk with you again....

 

[Lonemathsytoothbrushthief]

On 1/26/2020 at 2:27 PM, Galactic Turtle said:

As a bonus along the way I also did hear about an extreme minority of craziness surrounding typically older trans(?) women talking about how they legitimately get periods... that's probably the fetishization the GC crowd thinks is the norm. But I'm pretty sure most trans people find that crazy as well so bye.

Yeah no. Trans women/non binary people who go on estrogen based HRT who see themselves as having periods aren't talking about menstruation, but the cycles of hormones and effect which they have on moods.

And if they are talking about physical effects that's likely to do with staying aware of any possible side effects of HRT. Even trans inclusive spaces don't really have many trans people talking about these things, the same goes for some of the issues which trans men/other non binary people on T with a uterus have with pain/questions over endometriosis' reaction to T.

Everything to do with trans people going on hormones and having combinations of organs which doctors don't expect of either cis or trans people is underresearched, and we need to stop complaining about trans people wanting bodies outside of this literature and start looking at how the medical community has failed us in this regard.

[Lonemathsytoothbrushthief]

15 hours ago, Calligraphette_Coe said:

Too, I think the statement ".... are entirely accepted" has to be taken with a grain of salt. Some cultures may hide their disdain better than others, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist-- perhaps only that it's looked down upon a bit less stridently.

I definitely feel this. I often see people uphold cultures with more than two genders as examples of trans and non binary inclusion, when the other genders may be mixed up with intersex, trans and non binary all put into a gender role mixing elements of the other, binary, gender roles. I don't see these cultures as that bad for sure! But it comes across to me as a sort of fetishisation of non western cultures by people desperate to improve our own. I tend to put the focus more on my version of feminism, ie the ultimate goal of, with respect to the patriarchy, liberation from gender roles, while not seeking to abolish gender in general because that's often a guise for gender critical types to gaslight us.

Rant I know, but it irritates me.