Harvard article

[Acing It]

Just found this http://sitn.hms.harvard.edu/flash/2016/gender-lines-science-transgender-identity/

I made the mistake of reading some of the comments, though. Even though there are some good challenging questions in the comments as well that don't tow the line either way and make one think, explore and weigh up.

[Janus the Fox]

The insufficient oestrogen insensitivity scenarios is an interesting theory, a good quality post from Harvard University.  The bulk of that link is comments so it does take time to load on older slower devices, caution with the comments though, the commenters are clearly not gender experts.

[Karst]

Never read the comments.

[Acing It]

6 hours ago, Iridium said:

Never read the comments.

I can never seem to stop myself and then I think "why oh why am I reading these!!"

[Just Somebody]

This part speaks clear to me as someone who was taught by the society I was raised in that I should hate people who have my condition and so hate my own self:

 

"The transgender identity has long been associated with poor mental health, particularly the diagnoses of “gender identity disorder” and “gender dysphoria.” However, the World Health Organization is actively working towards declassifying transgender identity as a mental disorder, a change partially prompted by a recent study uncoupling the mental and physical health problems experienced by transgender people from their gender identity. Rather, those who had suffered ailments could vastly attribute their afflictions to societal stigma, discrimination, and violence."

 

 

Coincidentally I saw something like this on a Wikipedia page about Gender Dysphoria yesterday too:

 

 

From Wikipedia page on Gender dysphoria: "Some cultures have three defined genders: man, woman, and effeminate man. For example, in Samoa, the fa'afafine, a group of feminine males, are entirely socially accepted. The fa'afafine do not have any of the stigma or distress typically associated in most cultures with deviating from a male/female gender role. This suggests the distress so frequently associated with GID in a Western context is not caused by the disorder itself, but by difficulties encountered from social disapproval by one's culture."

 

 

 

Note: they still used erroneously the outdated term "GID" which stands for "Gender Identity Disorder" and so was replaced with "Gender Dysphoria".

 

[Andrea KF]

Interesting article, but now I want to check the BSTc (One learns something new every day) part of my brain.

[Just Somebody]

Just now, Andrea KF said:

Interesting article, but now I want to check the BSTc (One learns something new every day) part of my brain.

I don't think they can do this while you're alive.

[Acing It]

1 hour ago, Just Somebody said:

"Some cultures have three defined genders: man, woman, and effeminate man. For example, in Samoa, the fa'afafine, a group of feminine males, are entirely socially accepted. The fa'afafine do not have any of the stigma or distress typically associated in most cultures with deviating from a male/female gender role. This suggests the distress so frequently associated with GID in a Western context is not caused by the disorder itself, but by difficulties encountered from social disapproval by one's culture."

The last sentence in this says a lot, but what about tomboys. It seems effeminate men are accepted but still seen as different whereas more masculine women or tomboys are... ?

[Acing It]

25 minutes ago, Andrea KF said:

Interesting article, but now I want to check the BSTc (One learns something new every day) part of my brain.

Good luck with that! 🙂

And then there's this:https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20190930-the-sexist-myths-about-gender-stereotypes-that-wont-die

Goes to show how little we know in spite of all of those saying that science rules as it knows everything there is to know.

 

TBH I think I'm going to withdraw from all of this and live by my own living experience and by what I know is true for me. Getting into all this is exhausting and often upsetting.

[Just Somebody]

Just now, Acing It said:

The last sentence in this says a lot, but what about tomboys. It seems effeminate men are accepted but still seen as different whereas more masculine women or tomboys are... ?

Being tomboyish is a gender nonconforming expression of gender nonconforming/variant/diverse women.

 

 

But before we address it , let's take what the Wikipedia page about "Gender Variance" has to inform us:

 

******Important note: this Wikipedia article is talking about the gender nonconforming/variant/diverse community/umbrella as a whole so it's not separating sociocultural historical groups/categories of people with gender nonconforming/variant/diverse gender expressions (like tomboy women) from the ones with gender nonconforming/variant/diverse gender identities (aka transgender people).

 

***Also important this is written in the "Association With Sexuality" subtopic on the same page: "Gender norms vary by country and by culture, as well as across historical time periods within cultures".

 

 

This is written in the "Atypical Gender Roles" subtopic of the same page:

 

"Gender expectations, like other social norms, can vary widely by culture. A person may be seen as expressing an atypical gender role when their gender expression and activities differ from those usually expected in that culture. What is "typical" for one culture may be "atypical" for another. People from cultures who conceptualize gender as polar opposites on a binary, or having only two options, may see cultures with third gender people, or fluid gender expressions, and the people who live in these gender roles, as "atypical". Gender expressions that some cultures might consider "atypical" could include:

 

Househusbands: men from patriarchal cultures who stay at home to raise children and take care of the home while their partner goes to work. National Public Radio reported that by 2015 this had risen to 38%.[38] This would only be "atypical" in a culture where it is the norm for women to stay home.

Androgynous people: having a gender presentation that is either mixed or neutral in a culture that prizes highly binary presentations.[citation needed]

Crossdresser: a person who dresses in the clothing of, and otherwise assumes, "the appearance, manner, or roles traditionally associated with members of the opposite sex".[39] Crossdressers may be cisgender, or they may be trans people who have not yet transitioned.

Hijra: a traditional third gender person who is occasionally intersex, but most often considered male at birth. Many of the Hijra are eunuchs who have chosen to be ritually castrated in a dedication ceremony. They have a ceremonial role in several traditional South Asian cultures, often performing naming ceremonies and blessings. They dress in what are considered "women's" garments for that culture, but are seen as neither men nor women, but hijra.

Khanith: an effeminate gay male in Omani culture who is allowed to associate with women. The clothing of these individuals must be intermediate between that of a male and a female.[40]

Two-Spirit: a modern, pan-Indian, umbrella term used by some Indigenous North Americans to describe Native people in their communities who fulfill a traditional third-gender (or other gender-variant) social and ceremonial role in their cultures.[41][42] The term two-spirit was created in 1990 at the Indigenous lesbian and gay international gathering in Winnipeg, and "specifically chosen to distinguish and distance Native American/First Nations people from non-Native peoples."[41]

Male spirit mediums in Myanmar: Biological men that are spirit mediums wear women's attire and wear makeup during religious ceremonies. The majority of male spirit mediums live their lives permanently as women."

 

 

Now let's go back and talk about women with gender nonconforming/variant/diverse gender expressions like tomboys in the 21st century west of the globe, where I believe the society you live in is set on.

 

According to the same Wikipedia page as above on the subtopic "Social status for men vs. women":

 

"Gender nonconformity among people assigned male at birth is usually more strictly, and sometimes violently, policed in the West than is gender nonconformity among people assigned female at birth. However, a spectrum of types of gender nonconformity exists among boys and men. Some types of gender nonconformity, such as being a stay-at-home father, may pass without comment whereas others, such as wearing lipstick and skirts, may attract stares, criticism, or questioning. Some geographical regions are more tolerant than others of such differences.[citation needed]

 

This is a comparatively recent development in historical terms, because the dress and careers of women used to be policed,[26] and still are in countries like Iran and Saudi Arabia (where they are literally policed[27][28]). The success of second-wave feminism is the chief reason for the freedom of women in the West to wear traditionally-male clothing such as trousers, or to take up traditionally-male occupations such as being a medical doctor, etc. At the other extreme, some Communist regimes such as the Soviet Union made a point of pushing women into traditionally male occupations in order to advance the feminist ideology of the state — for example, 58% of Soviet engineers were women in 1980 — but this trend went into reverse after the collapse of the Soviet Union, a reversal that some attribute to women becoming more free to follow their own interests."

 

Similarly to the gender nonconforming/variant/diverse gender identity sociocultural historical group of the fa'afafine, we have  Europe's Albanian sworn virgins who are a gender nonconforming/variant/diverse sociocultural historical gender identity group of people considered females and with socioculturally historically considered masculine gender nonconforming/diverse/variant gender expressions (behaviors and appearances) also considered sacred.

[Andrea KF]

23 hours ago, Acing It said:

Good luck with that! 🙂

And then there's this:https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20190930-the-sexist-myths-about-gender-stereotypes-that-wont-die

Goes to show how little we know in spite of all of those saying that science rules as it knows everything there is to know.

 

TBH I think I'm going to withdraw from all of this and live by my own living experience and by what I know is true for me. Getting into all this is exhausting and often upsetting.

Well, I would like to know how it's done first. And Yes, science cannot really say more than a certain percentage of their test persons fits their theory about "BSTc" and genders.

Maybe better that something completely made up, I guess.