everywhere and nowhere Posted January 23, 2020 Share Posted January 23, 2020 6 hours ago, Philip027 said: It's this sort of self-blaming attitude that allows a lot of these parents to ultimately get their way regarding the whole "arranged marriage" practice, because kids are led to believe they are somehow responsible for their parents' lives going down the shitter I feel sorry that parents don't think about how arranged marriages, in general, very rarely make people happy, and in some cases (mismatched orientations) turn their child's life into constant hell. Again: sex - will = torture Sex is not "universally wonderful"! To a sex-averse person it can be terrifying, uncomfortable, repulsive, physically horrible, it can be just an act of being robbed of oneself. 3 hours ago, happy asexual said: I did look sad to my parents and they asked me what was the matter and i clearly told them that i was uncomfortable thinking about the physical relationship aspect of marriage and that i found the guy's flirting weird to which my mum clearly referred to my meeting with a counselor who instead of acknowledging that i am in fact ace, just told me i was scared of marriage and that with time i will be fine. What about trying to use stronger words? Something like "I feel sick with fear", "I want to vomit when I think about having to fulfill 'marital duties'". I too feel so helpless because I want everyone in the world to avoid unwanted sex. I am at least lucky to live in a culture where women are no more than mocked for being spinsters (and despite this, I'm proud to be a spinster), but if I had to fight more, I would do everything to avoid sex. And I'm, too, proud of being relentless, of treating my sex aversion as an obvious Hard Limit. Link to post Share on other sites
happy asexual Posted January 23, 2020 Author Share Posted January 23, 2020 5 hours ago, uhtred said: It may be that they misunderstand "uncomfortable" - and think "lots of shy young women are uncomfortable about the idea of sex". Language can be extremely confusing on these issues. I know that my wife learned from her parents when she was young that sex is something "women do for men" when they are married. I think t this day she doesn't really understand / believe that there are may women who *actively* enjoy sex and see it out, and doesn't realize that the is nearly asexual. Similarly the idea of girls being "uncomfortable" with sex is just something people say - its usually not really true. Most young women do feel sexual attraction. So is it possible that your parents really didn't understand the really feeling behind your words? If you can talk to your potential husband, please tell him very clearly. Make sure he knows its nothing about him in any way that you are asexual. Maybe even point him towards this site. Nothing you have posted is bad, even if he does recognize you. Let him ask people questions - asexuality is really not very widely known, many people honestly don't know it exists. Worst case, can you leave? Do you have any way to support yourself? I have been open about it to my mom like i didnt use any alternative terms with her when i spoke to her last year and she didnt get it so she took me to a counselor and all that counselor told me that i just had an irrational fear of marriage. I cant leave. Indian society wont live my parents live down this humiliation. I have to somehow talk to the guy about it or just avoid sex after marriage and then deal with it cause i for one know im not doing anything i dont like more than i already am. Link to post Share on other sites
happy asexual Posted January 23, 2020 Author Share Posted January 23, 2020 3 hours ago, Nowhere Girl said: I feel sorry that parents don't think about how arranged marriages, in general, very rarely make people happy, and in some cases (mismatched orientations) turn their child's life into constant hell. Again: sex - will = torture Sex is not "universally wonderful"! To a sex-averse person it can be terrifying, uncomfortable, repulsive, physically horrible, it can be just an act of being robbed of oneself. What about trying to use stronger words? Something like "I feel sick with fear", "I want to vomit when I think about having to fulfill 'marital duties'". I too feel so helpless because I want everyone in the world to avoid unwanted sex. I am at least lucky to live in a culture where women are no more than mocked for being spinsters (and despite this, I'm proud to be a spinster), but if I had to fight more, I would do everything to avoid sex. And I'm, too, proud of being relentless, of treating my sex aversion as an obvious Hard Limit. I have been open to the exact thing with my mother but it didnt change anything. They just dont get it. They think these are all excuses to avoid marriage. But its too late anyways. Link to post Share on other sites
everywhere and nowhere Posted January 23, 2020 Share Posted January 23, 2020 8 hours ago, happy asexual said: I have to somehow talk to the guy about it or just avoid sex after marriage and then deal with it cause i for one know im not doing anything i dont like more than i already am. But really, you need to talk to him before the marriage. Really, I don't want to frighten you, but it's an extremely serious issue. TW: sexual violence Spoiler In the worst case, it's an issue of avoiding getting raped. Can you spend a bit of time with him without your or his parents being present in the room? Talk to him. You could say something like: "I'm fine with having you as a husband who is actually my best friend. If you want to, I will be very happy to talk with you for hours, travel together, just spend time. But really, you ought to know that I find the idea of having sex deeply frightening and I would do everything I can to never have sex. It's not an ordinary 'fear of the unknown', 'a maiden's anxiety', as ignorant people try to present it - I'm asexual and I'm not capable of desiring sex. I'm absolutely sure of it, but neither my parents, not the psychologist I have talked to have been open to understanding it". You're Muslim... but in India polygamy is illegal anyway. But in fact I think that in such cases polygamy is not a bad solution. A man could protect one woman from social hostility and only have sex with the other. And, in the perfect scenario, all three could be best friends. I have actually read about a moden case of a married woman who was in fact a lesbian - and she and her husband's second wife became lovers, with the husband probably turning a blind eye to it. Really, how cruel does a person have to be to expect someone to spend all life with a person they barely know! Link to post Share on other sites
Loading Posted January 23, 2020 Share Posted January 23, 2020 23 hours ago, Nowhere Girl said: If there was no other option, I would beg him for no sex. But I'm simply sex-averse and the idea of being a (man's) wife, a mother and a sexual partner feels worse than death for me. And: ARRANGED MARRIAGE = SEXUAL VIOLENCE!!!!!!!!!!!!! HANDS OFF OUR BODIES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! SEX - WILL = TORTURE Actually in a lot of situations arranged marriage can be very beneficial. I wouldn't blanket statement it as always being a bad thing/sexual violence/torture. Just because something isn't your culture doesn't immediately make it instantly a bad thing. Link to post Share on other sites
everywhere and nowhere Posted January 23, 2020 Share Posted January 23, 2020 29 minutes ago, Loading said: Actually in a lot of situations arranged marriage can be very beneficial. I wouldn't blanket statement it as always being a bad thing/sexual violence/torture. Just because something isn't your culture doesn't immediately make it instantly a bad thing. Sorry, but I don't accept cultural relativism at the price of women's suffering. Unwanted sex is always wrong and nobody should ever have to endure it. And for some people there is no "wanted sex". Link to post Share on other sites
communityabed Posted January 23, 2020 Share Posted January 23, 2020 1 hour ago, Nowhere Girl said: Sorry, but I don't accept cultural relativism at the price of women's suffering. Unwanted sex is always wrong and nobody should ever have to endure it. And for some people there is no "wanted sex". Many couples enter into arranged marriages quite willingly and seem happy. You may have a wrong idea about arranged marriage that parents just pick a partner and one is forced to go along with it. In fact, in urban families there is quite a lot of freedom to meet prospective partners, though it's within a narrow circle dictated by caste. Link to post Share on other sites
Philip027 Posted January 23, 2020 Share Posted January 23, 2020 Arranged marriage is a barbaric practice (yes, I'm calling it barbaric, because it is) that attempts to shit all over basic human rights and freedoms. There is no reason for it to exist in this day and age. What makes it even worse is that it doesn't just potentially ruin the life of the person getting "arranged"; it can also throw a real wrench into the life of the other person too when they realize they are not getting something that they were expecting (something that could potentially have been avoided if, you know, things weren't all being machinated by the parents or whatever). It doesn't really matter if some people can end up happy in one. The porn industry has a reputation for mistreating its performers and overall is pretty shitty too, but some people are nevertheless still happy working in it. It still doesn't mean there aren't any problems. Quote You may have a wrong idea about arranged marriage that parents just pick a partner and one is forced to go along with it. In fact, in urban families there is quite a lot of freedom to meet prospective partners, though it's within a narrow circle dictated by caste. Still barbaric. Being forced to choose within a "caste" is still stripping away freedom. Link to post Share on other sites
everywhere and nowhere Posted January 23, 2020 Share Posted January 23, 2020 27 minutes ago, communityabed said: Many couples enter into arranged marriages quite willingly and seem happy. You may have a wrong idea about arranged marriage that parents just pick a partner and one is forced to go along with it. In fact, in urban families there is quite a lot of freedom to meet prospective partners, though it's within a narrow circle dictated by caste. Yes, but what about people who would prefer not to marry at all? What about people who cannot have sex and remain sane? Link to post Share on other sites
communityabed Posted January 23, 2020 Share Posted January 23, 2020 Yea, it's a difficult situation for them. But since some degree of freedom is there in meeting partners, perhaps one can reveal one's orientations at the time of meeting up. But yea, as in OP'S case, this freedom may not be available in conservative communities. The system breaks down in this case. Link to post Share on other sites
uhtred Posted January 23, 2020 Share Posted January 23, 2020 11 hours ago, happy asexual said: I have been open about it to my mom like i didnt use any alternative terms with her when i spoke to her last year and she didnt get it so she took me to a counselor and all that counselor told me that i just had an irrational fear of marriage. I cant leave. Indian society wont live my parents live down this humiliation. I have to somehow talk to the guy about it or just avoid sex after marriage and then deal with it cause i for one know im not doing anything i dont like more than i already am. OK, if it possible, I think you need to tell you potential husband. You need to be very clear, again maybe send him to an asexuality site like this. If he is a good person, this could be crushing to him as well: Imagine someone who has dreamed of a loving marriage to a woman, who then discovers that they must now spend the rest of their lives celibate, violate their marriage vows, or force sex on the person they love. If your parents really understand how you feel and still want you to get married, then they are horrible people - wanting to doom their child (and her husband) to a life of misery. It they truly don't care about the misery the future holds for you - possibly including being forced into sex you can't stand, then they deserve humiliation. A parent's love for their child should trump any social concerns. Is it possible for you to leave? I don't know either the law or your financial situation. Do you have friends who could contact your potential husband? Older friends who could talk directly to your parents and explain to them what is going on? Link to post Share on other sites
uhtred Posted January 23, 2020 Share Posted January 23, 2020 56 minutes ago, Philip027 said: Arranged marriage is a barbaric practice (yes, I'm calling it barbaric, because it is) that attempts to shit all over basic human rights and freedoms. There is no reason for it to exist in this day and age. What makes it even worse is that it doesn't just potentially ruin the life of the person getting "arranged"; it can also throw a real wrench into the life of the other person too when they realize they are not getting something that they were expecting (something that could potentially have been avoided if, you know, things weren't all being machinated by the parents or whatever). It doesn't really matter if some people can end up happy in one. The porn industry has a reputation for mistreating its performers and overall is pretty shitty too, but some people are nevertheless still happy working in it. It still doesn't mean there aren't any problems. Still barbaric. Being forced to choose within a "caste" is still stripping away freedom. I think "arranged" marriage can occur in varying degrees. In cases like this where someone is essentially forced to marry the person of their parent's choosing, I agree it is barbaric. In other cases where the parents are acting more like matchmakers and recommending a spouse, but people can still refuse, it can be OK. Link to post Share on other sites
- Saph - Posted January 23, 2020 Share Posted January 23, 2020 On 1/22/2020 at 2:21 PM, happy asexual said: I am trying to analyze the guy and well i have realized he isnt a kind of guy who would force himself on me. I am really hoping to open up to him one day. I really hope it isnt all that bad as i am imagining He seems to be a "good guy" but "good guys" have limits. If there would be a crisis between you 2, you will be the one to take the fall. I must insist. You could delay things until you think that the time is right but the cat must be out of the bag before you decide to live 7 days a week with your husband abroad. Don't go to the USA with a one way ticket and without any job or any way to pay a rent for yourself. I'm not from here but with Mr Trump I would not go there without solid money making plans. Risking a couple discussion while going there is just the worst plan ever. Also don't go there if your job is provided by your family. You are no longer independent financially from your family and believe me they will use this. An old colleague of mine was Indian, hetero, cis fully normal except that he was in love with a brilliant South American PhD girl. His family cut all funds for his PhD in England because of his love. He managed via odd jobs but it did not work out on the long term: he had to go for the arranged marriage. Link to post Share on other sites
Philip027 Posted January 23, 2020 Share Posted January 23, 2020 Quote I think "arranged" marriage can occur in varying degrees. In cases like this where someone is essentially forced to marry the person of their parent's choosing, I agree it is barbaric. In other cases where the parents are acting more like matchmakers and recommending a spouse, but people can still refuse, it can be OK. The latter isn't what I would refer to as arranged marriage. To me it's when it's all done for you and you don't get a say. But even then, the parents should still butt out unless the kid actually asks them for their help. Personal relationships should be just that, personal. Link to post Share on other sites
communityabed Posted January 23, 2020 Share Posted January 23, 2020 2 hours ago, Philip027 said: Arranged marriage is a barbaric practice (yes, I'm calling it barbaric, because it is) that attempts to shit all over basic human rights and freedoms. There is no reason for it to exist in this day and age. What makes it even worse is that it doesn't just potentially ruin the life of the person getting "arranged"; it can also throw a real wrench into the life of the other person too when they realize they are not getting something that they were expecting (something that could potentially have been avoided if, you know, things weren't all being machinated by the parents or whatever). It doesn't really matter if some people can end up happy in one. The porn industry has a reputation for mistreating its performers and overall is pretty shitty too, but some people are nevertheless still happy working in it. It still doesn't mean there aren't any problems. Still barbaric. Being forced to choose within a "caste" is still stripping away freedom. Hey, you are preaching to the choir. I agree with everything you say. My own experience was pretty awful. Based on just one meeting I was supposed to give my answer to the proposal. I just couldn't do that. Neither did I want to marry within my community. My strategy was to keeping say no to all the guys, hoping my parents would get the hint and leave me alone. Then mum passed away and Dad basically gave up on me. But take my younger brother. He definitely has more freedom than I did. He meets girls frequently via arranged marriage portals. I put it to him that if I were in his place, I would resent having to stick within our community. He says he is ok with that. He would rather not cause any conflict. He said almost all his friends have had their hearts broken and it's very rare for someone to have a "love marriage". I really didn't know what to say in that moment. Link to post Share on other sites
uhtred Posted January 23, 2020 Share Posted January 23, 2020 On 1/22/2020 at 5:21 AM, happy asexual said: I am trying to analyze the guy and well i have realized he isnt a kind of guy who would force himself on me. I am really hoping to open up to him one day. I really hope it isnt all that bad as i am imagining One comment on this. He may be the most wonderful honorable guy in the world, and never in any way pressure you for sex, and live celibate for his entire life. The thing is, that isn't fair to *him*. He may put up with it, and honor his marriage vows - but spend *his* life miserable. That is the problem with a sexually mismatched marriage. Its quite possible for both people to be good, and neither at fault, yet for one or both of them to be truly miserable. Please don't underestimate how miserable this may be for him. Link to post Share on other sites
IceQueenn Posted January 23, 2020 Share Posted January 23, 2020 Arranged marriage?! Run! Link to post Share on other sites
Loading Posted January 23, 2020 Share Posted January 23, 2020 5 hours ago, Philip027 said: Arranged marriage is a barbaric practice (yes, I'm calling it barbaric, because it is) that attempts to shit all over basic human rights and freedoms. There is no reason for it to exist in this day and age. What makes it even worse is that it doesn't just potentially ruin the life of the person getting "arranged"; it can also throw a real wrench into the life of the other person too when they realize they are not getting something that they were expecting (something that could potentially have been avoided if, you know, things weren't all being machinated by the parents or whatever). It doesn't really matter if some people can end up happy in one. The porn industry has a reputation for mistreating its performers and overall is pretty shitty too, but some people are nevertheless still happy working in it. It still doesn't mean there aren't any problems. Still barbaric. Being forced to choose within a "caste" is still stripping away freedom. You're pretty ignorant on the topic. Link to post Share on other sites
Philip027 Posted January 23, 2020 Share Posted January 23, 2020 You're pretty ignorant on how to construct a convincing rebuttal. So what's your point? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Link to post Share on other sites
Sally Posted January 24, 2020 Share Posted January 24, 2020 @happy asexual I probably not be so emphatic in telling someone what they should or should not do, but I am: DO NOT MARRY THIS MAN. Summon up the courage to say "No" to your parents, no matter what they tell you, and threaten you with. He sounds very nice. He could be nicer than any other man your parents might have arranged for you. However, he will expect sex in the marriage. You don't want sex. That will make both of you unhappy, and if I'm not judging incorrectly, it is just as difficult to go through a divorce in the Muslim world as it is for an orthodox Jew to do so. (I'm Jewish and although I'm not orthodox, I know what that world is like.) If necessary, find another job so that you are not dependent upon your father for a job. But think VERY carefully about what others have said above. Getting married now might be the thing that you will regret all your life. Link to post Share on other sites
everywhere and nowhere Posted January 24, 2020 Share Posted January 24, 2020 2 hours ago, Sally said: and if I'm not judging incorrectly, it is just as difficult to go through a divorce in the Muslim world as it is for an orthodox Jew to do so. (I'm Jewish and although I'm not orthodox, I know what that world is like.) As far as I know, divorce is relatively easy in Islam... but only if the man desires it (or both parties desire it). For a man, it is enough to say three times "I divorce you" and, at least according to religious law, the marriage becomes void (which may not have any practical effect in places which fortunately don't recognise Sharia law and require a civil divorce procedure). But if only the woman wants divorce... she is expected to bring witnesses who will state what was wrong in her marriage... given how often women, out of fear and shame, just hide signs of domestic violence, it's an almost impossible task. That said, India is a multi-religious country and a democracy, so divorce may be easier. But it is still obviously better to not marry if one expects only trouble. Link to post Share on other sites
Yoruka Posted January 24, 2020 Share Posted January 24, 2020 On 1/22/2020 at 8:36 PM, happy asexual said: Ok just so you know, not even a day goes by when i dont try to save myself. I did look sad to my parents and they asked me what was the matter and i clearly told them that i was uncomfortable thinking about the physical relationship aspect of marriage and that i found the guy's flirting weird to which my mum clearly referred to my meeting with a counselor who instead of acknowledging that i am in fact ace, just told me i was scared of marriage and that with time i will be fine. I cried so much in front of my parents and my dad then cried back citing how i was causing him sadness by having this attitude in life. I had all this conversation just an hour back. I am stuck and im only now hoping for a miracle that somehow the guy understands Why does it feel to me your parents are being quite manipulative here? From what I see, it seems they don't value your happiness or proper worth. Link to post Share on other sites
Nylocke Posted January 24, 2020 Share Posted January 24, 2020 I do wish you well and hope things turn out ok for you. I don't know what kinda dude this is(neither do you for that matter) but after marriage there are "high expectations" for you to perform and that could get problematic depending on your tolerance Link to post Share on other sites
uhtred Posted January 24, 2020 Share Posted January 24, 2020 I know almost nothing about Islam so I cannot judge what online resources are legitimate and not. If I google Islam and Asexuality, I do get a lot of hits, and some provide arguments that it is OK for someone who is asexual not to marry. Again, these may not be valid sources of information, I don't have the knowledge to judge, but the OP might look and see if there are valid arguments that she could use with her parents. Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted January 24, 2020 Share Posted January 24, 2020 2 hours ago, uhtred said: I know almost nothing about Islam so I cannot judge what online resources are legitimate and not. If I google Islam and Asexuality, I do get a lot of hits, and some provide arguments that it is OK for someone who is asexual not to marry. Again, these may not be valid sources of information, I don't have the knowledge to judge, but the OP might look and see if there are valid arguments that she could use with her parents. Is OP even muslim? (I don't remember reading it but I tend to overlook details when reading) When I think about India and arranged marriage I think about Hinduism first, but either way, it's okay to arrange a marriage if both people want it, but it's not okay to force someone in a marriage - arranged or not. But I think the problem with your argument could be that for asexuality to be a valid reason not to get married, it would need the society the person is living in to accept asexuality as a valid sexual orientation and it sounds like at least her immediate family doesn't think that way. Link to post Share on other sites
Philip027 Posted January 24, 2020 Share Posted January 24, 2020 OP said right at the start that they're Indian, which from my understanding is a sort of culture where this sort of practice still sometimes occurs or is sometimes pushed/encouraged. No idea to what extent it is nowadays compared to the past, but it still shouldn't ever be happening. Link to post Share on other sites
ryn2 Posted January 24, 2020 Share Posted January 24, 2020 I’m hesitant to judge the ethics of a cultural practice like arranged marriage when I’m not part of/close to the culture in question - it’s not like my country’s majority “marriage of love” approach brings with it a stunning success rate and/or lack of serious marital issues - but I do agree that it would be best to clue the future husband in beforehand if at all possible. Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted January 24, 2020 Share Posted January 24, 2020 3 hours ago, Philip027 said: OP said right at the start that they're Indian, which from my understanding is a sort of culture where this sort of practice still sometimes occurs or is sometimes pushed/encouraged. No idea to what extent it is nowadays compared to the past, but it still shouldn't ever be happening. I'm not Indian so I don't know, either, but I remember on the big bang theory, the Indian character Raj asked his parents to arrange a marriage for him. both him and the woman had a say in whether they wanted to go through with it or not and in the end decided that they didn't belong together. It's basically the same as when you set someone up for a date, though it was obvious both wanted to get married, not just date. I think this is where cultures are a little different, but neither approach hurts anyone. But when you go more traditional, where the two people (especially the woman, I suppose) doesn't have any say in it and is forced (like OP), it's downright abuse. Quote I’m hesitant to judge the ethics of a cultural practice like arranged marriage when I’m not part of/close to the culture in question - it’s not like my country’s majority “marriage of love” approach brings with it a stunning success rate and/or lack of serious marital issues - but I do agree that it would be best to clue the future husband in beforehand if at all possible. I know what you mean and I think it's a good idea to be careful with criticizing other culture's traditions, but there's some that are downright neglecting human rights and it's important to speak out against them - female genital mutilation comes to mind. I don't need to be part of a culture that practices it to know it's basically torture and unethical. arranged forced marriage might not physically hurt anyone (though I'm sure marital rape and domestic abuse is much more common in these kinds of marriages) but it's robbing someone of their freedom and right to choose and it shouldn't be accepted. I don't understand why Loading tried to call someone out for being ignorant on a topic like this. There's things you should not be tolerating, ever, and forcing someone into a sexual relationship definitely is somewhere on top of that list. Link to post Share on other sites
Philip027 Posted January 24, 2020 Share Posted January 24, 2020 Quote I'm not Indian so I don't know, either, but I remember on the big bang theory, the Indian character Raj asked his parents to arrange a marriage for him. both him and the woman had a say in whether they wanted to go through with it or not and in the end decided that they didn't belong together. It's basically the same as when you set someone up for a date, though it was obvious both wanted to get married, not just date. I think this is where cultures are a little different, but neither approach hurts anyone. But when you go more traditional, where the two people (especially the woman, I suppose) doesn't have any say in it and is forced (like OP), it's downright abuse. I don't know much about the show so I'm not familiar with this character's situation in particular but That's fine to do, if and ONLY if the person actually wants it themselves and nobody is getting forced/coerced into anything. But like I said above, that's not really what I would refer to as "arranged marriage" and I don't think it's what most people mean or think of when they are talking about arranged marriages, either. Link to post Share on other sites
ryn2 Posted January 24, 2020 Share Posted January 24, 2020 1 hour ago, elsuzu said: I think it's a good idea to be careful with criticizing other culture's traditions, but there's some that are downright neglecting human rights and it's important to speak out against them I agreed. I’m just not comfortable, based on my anecdotal but limited knowledge, that this is something that falls into that category. Link to post Share on other sites
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