Choosing between masturbation and sex

[everywhere and nowhere]

1 minute ago, CBC said:

Tbh I was going to post the beating a dead horse one, but I like your corgi better.

By the way, do you know what does "beat a horse" (that's the literal translation) mean in Polish? "Wank".

[Anthracite_Impreza]

38 minutes ago, CBC said:

we need more lady euphemisms. 

But I thought you weren't a lady?

[SithLord]

3 hours ago, BeakLove said:

I think anyone who broadly has a disinterest in sex and does not seek it out or want to engage in it can reasonably identify as "asexual". But I think once you're having regular sex, particularly for your own enjoyment reasons, it seems really odd to use it to apply to yourself, no? 

This is essentially my view on the issue. If I'm not attracted to my sexual partner, but still seek out and engage in sex with them regularly for motivations that are entirely my own, what's the difference between me and a normal or low-libido sexual? 

[flacomedicen]

4 minutes ago, Sithgroundhog said:

This is essentially my view on the issue. If I'm not attracted to my sexual partner, but still seek out and engage in sex with them regularly for motivations that are entirely my own, what's the difference between me and a normal or low-libido sexual? 

The difference would be that the low-libido sexual would need sex. don't they? if not they would be celibate, am I wrong?

[everywhere and nowhere]

3 minutes ago, flacomedicen said:

The difference would be that the low-libido sexual would need sex. don't they? if not they would be celibate, am I wrong?

If someone seeks out sex, then it means that for some reason they feel a need for it.

[SithLord]

1 minute ago, flacomedicen said:

The difference would be that the low-libido sexual would need sex. don't they? if not they would be celibate, am I wrong?

Need is a word most of them wouldn't use, not unless desperate. I think it's more essential to ask why having sex is more fulfilling than masturbation. If you ask a sexual person, most of them would say the cuddling, emotional closeness, feeling desired, stress relief, physical enjoyment/stimulation, etc. Most asexuals I know, even sex-favorable ones, don't have the same motivations for sex and would choose masturbation over partnered sex for purely self-motivated reasons. 

[Black Husky]

1 hour ago, banana monkey said:

Yeah, but what definition of sexual attraction are you using? I'm pretty sure that if we are using aven's defintions sexual attraction is "the desire for partnered sex".  Whilst everyone is free to use whatever definitions (and thus it is up to each person)  aven's definition states an asexual is a person who doesnt experience sexual attraction or to expand -  a person who doesnt experience the desire for partnered sex. 

I rather describe sexual attraction as you see someone and you think they're hot and maybe you'd even want to make out with them (for me this goes from kissing to having sex with them).

 

1 hour ago, flacomedicen said:

Is there any difference between picking a choice and fulfil a desire? I think it does. I think a desire is something specific that your body ask for and picking a choice is just choosing one of a sort of options. I think a sex-favourable asexual can choose between listen music, drink a beer, masturbate or have sex with a friend (with whom they have a big intimacy) for release stress. In the end they are not desiring sex, its body (mind?) is not asking for it specifically.

I, too, think that desire is something you can't really control, like you body tells you that you want this. So someone who desires partnerd sex would experience sexual attraction. But if you don't expierence sexual attraction/ desire and you make the choice to still have sex to relief stress, then I'd say that you are asexual, because you don't desire it, but you chose this option for another reason

[Anthracite_Impreza]

9 minutes ago, Black Husky said:

I, too, think that desire is something you can't really control, like you body tells you that you want this. So someone who desires partnerd sex would experience sexual attraction. But if you don't expierence sexual attraction/ desire and you make the choice to still have sex to relief stress, then I'd say that you are asexual, because you don't desire it, but you chose this option for another reason

That is some spectacular mental gymnastics right there. Like seriously, if one (posh voice) needs to go through all that rigmarole to fit a definition, they very likely don't fit it.

[everywhere and nowhere]

21 minutes ago, Black Husky said:

I, too, think that desire is something you can't really control, like you body tells you that you want this. So someone who desires partnerd sex would experience sexual attraction. But if you don't expierence sexual attraction/ desire and you make the choice to still have sex to relief stress, then I'd say that you are asexual, because you don't desire it, but you chose this option for another reason

But a sexual orientation, too, is something one doesn't consciously control. If someone has an instinct which makes them desire sex, it just doesn't seem asexual. If someone doesn't have it (or if any effects of such an instinct are suppressed by an also-instinctive sex aversion), they seem asexual.

[Snao Cone]

[gisiebob]

3 hours ago, CBC said:

Why do we repeatedly make this so complicated when it needn't be? Yes people have different motivations and degrees of desire and whatnot, but if you're voluntarily, repeatedly choosing to have sex because it's fulfilling in some way... sexual.

I appreciate the argument for simplicity, but I wonder if you are mistaking an easy solution with a simple one. wouldn't "if you find asexual helps describe yourself to others, then you are asexual" also be simple? 

[Guest]

3 hours ago, Black Husky said:

I rather describe sexual attraction as you see someone and you think they're hot and maybe you'd even want to make out with them

Lots of aces do find others 'hot' and there are sexuals who don't really care about appearance at all. The difference is that sexual people have an innate desire (to varying degrees) to connect on a sexual level with certain other people, sometimes. Aces don't have that innate preference to connect sexually with others for their own sexual and/or emotional pleasure, though may have sex for external reasons like to try to 'fit in', to try to prevent a sexual partner from becoming dissatisfied within the relationship, or even as a form of self-punishment. They just don't desire sex for the sake of sexual pleasure itself, which is why sexuals do desire sex. If sexuals didn't enjoy sex on some level (enough to want to seek it out), they wouldn't desire it.. which is why they're sexual and not ace.

[BeakLove]

3 hours ago, Black Husky said:

I, too, think that desire is something you can't really control, like you body tells you that you want this. So someone who desires partnerd sex would experience sexual attraction. But if you don't expierence sexual attraction/ desire and you make the choice to still have sex to relief stress, then I'd say that you are asexual, because you don't desire it, but you chose this option for another reason

The implication here is that sexual people only have sex as a result of some ravenous, biological, craving, and not for the myriad reasons they actually do: emotional closeness, physical pleasure, making a partner happy, boredom, or stress relief. Often all at once. The thing that allows you have to sex with Jenny, but not with Jane, is (sexual) attraction. Unless you can earnestly say you'd have sex with anyone who was available, then that attraction is required to make the interaction happen. It doesn't matter whether the attraction is a result of how they look, how they sound, their personality, how close you are to them: it's still attraction!! That's why I don't buy the "split attraction" argument. Attraction cannot be coherently sliced into 600 trillion pieces and stitched back together. That's not how we experience attraction to people.

 

4 hours ago, flacomedicen said:

 I think a sex-favourable asexual can choose between listen music, drink a beer, masturbate or have sex with a friend (with whom they have a big intimacy) for release stress. In the end they are not desiring sex, its body (mind?) is not asking for it specifically.

Hint: the "big intimacy" is the attraction.

 

1 hour ago, gisiebob said:

I appreciate the argument for simplicity, but I wonder if you are mistaking an easy solution with a simple one. wouldn't "if you find asexual helps describe yourself to others, then you are asexual" also be simple? 

But if you're using the term asexual in a completely counter-intuitive way then who is it helping? Can I coherently describe myself as straight (I'm a male), and then go on to document my extensive and ongoing hook ups with other men? 

 

[flacomedicen]

17 minutes ago, BeakLove said:

Hint: the "big intimacy" is the attraction.

I appreciate that you take the time for posting, @BeakLove. I would say the big intimacy is a result of growing confidence as a result of that person is very ethical and reflexive. Taking about four years of knowing each other.

 

I think the debate is fine in itself. The most people in this topic gave me useful answers and questions. I'm just trynna put some light on my identity thru reading asexual people opinion. Specially when myself feel like an asexual according to what I've read on AVENwiki and to what I've seen on ace facebook groups where I participate, but feel a bit odd when reading and participating here on the forum.

Edited January 14, 2020 by flacomedicen
A little explanation.

[BeakLove]

9 minutes ago, flacomedicen said:

I appreciate that you take the time for posting, @BeakLove. I would say the big intimacy is a result of growing confidence as a result of that person is very ethical and reflexive. Taking about four years of knowing each other.

Right. I wouldn't deny that. All I'm saying is that if that four years has built up such intimacy you are willing and able to have sex (and indeed want to), then the effect of that intimacy has been to develop sufficient attraction for that act to happen. You can argue, probably rightly, that it's a confluence of trust, confidence, friendship, a stressful situation, horniness, rather than some notional raw "sexual desire" for the other person; but the end result is the same. 

 

Quote

I think the debate is fine in itself. The most people in this topic gave me useful answers and questions. I'm just trynna put some light on my identity thru reading asexual people opinion. Specially when myself feel like an asexual according to what I've read on AVENwiki and to what I've seen on ace facebook groups where I participate, but feel a bit odd when reading and participating here on the forum.

Good that the topic has helped at least. Btw, I'm not asexual, if that helps.

[AceMissBehaving]

As an asexual person, my natural inclination when my labido acts up is to take cake of it solo. I’m married, in a relationship, but that’s still the way my compass points. 
 

I could see a person looking for the kinds of encounters your talking about maybe calling themself aromantic, but to me asexual wouldn’t make sense. 

[everywhere and nowhere]

By the way, that Twitter post is really bad. Particularly the second part. No, sex is not "self-care". For some people exactly not having sex can only be adequate self-care and sex could only be self-harm.

[Iam9man]

9 hours ago, BeakLove said:

If you're aesthetically drawn to someone enough to engage in sex then it's sexual attraction I would say.

I find concentrating on other forms of attraction, especially aesthetic, a good way of staying in the moment when having sex if you don’t experience sexual attraction.

[Iam9man]

8 hours ago, flacomedicen said:

Is there any difference between picking a choice and fulfil a desire? I think it does. I think a desire is something specific that your body ask for and picking a choice is just choosing one of a sort of options. I think a sex-favourable asexual can choose between listen music, drink a beer, masturbate or have sex with a friend (with whom they have a big intimacy) for release stress. In the end they are not desiring sex, its body (mind?) is not asking for it specifically.

👍

[ryn2]

20 hours ago, flacomedicen said:

I think graysexual ("gris-sexual" in spanish) would be a nice label too.

My past history shares some similarities with OP and while I definitely have some things in common with asexuals I have ultimately determined that greysexual is a better descriptor for me.

 

Seeking sex with someone because they make a better sex toy than your inanimate sex toys still counts as seeking sex, IMO, in a way that initiating sex solely to keep your partner from ending the relationship over low frequency concerns doesn’t.

[banana monkey]

22 hours ago, Black Husky said:

 as you see someone and you think they're hot 

 

 

Not wanting to go in a whole arguement and considering the fact many others have posted in the last 24 hours but I just could not stop myself from posting that one of the reasons I dislike this defintion is I have never ever been able to understand what people mean when they say some one is "hot" or that they think someone is "hot". 

 

If wanting to add even more, because I dont understand that concept I am now wondering if thinking someone is hot when you see them could actually be aesthetic attraction rather than sexual and if its not what is the difference that makes thinking that someone is "hot" sexual attraction rather than aesthetic. 

[Snao Cone]

15 minutes ago, banana monkey said:

If wanting to add even more, because I dont understand that concept I am now wondering if thinking someone is hot when you see them could actually be aesthetic attraction rather than sexual and if its not what is the difference that makes thinking that someone is "hot" sexual attraction rather than aesthetic. 

This is why it took me until my 30s to identify as asexual. I know what "hot" is. I can spot it. I can enjoy it. I just don't want to do anything with it. I can also identify when a person is kind, smart, funny, inspiring, and all sorts of other things that arouse people in a more emotional way. I still don't want to do anything with people based on that.

 

We're taught to identify what's hot/beautiful/attractive, and we're taught to identify what's charming/thoughtful/romantic. We're generally taught that with heterosexual overtones. It's not sexual attraction for me to point at Idris Elba and say "that man is hot" because that message is explicitly put out there in the media, and I have been socialized to frame my sense of masculine beauty in a certain way. What we're not taught is a more intrinsic feeling, this je ne sais quoi sense of want and desire and yearning and connection. So preferring sex because it ignites that connection is definitely sexual. Preferring sex because one has reservations about self-touch is a different matter, and more complicated than simply sexual vs asexual. Preferring sex because sticking to masturbation would make you feel like you're neglecting your partner is extrinsic reasoning, and quite different from going after what makes you personally more fulfilled. (general you, if that wasn't obvious)

[Anthracite_Impreza]

15 hours ago, banana monkey said:

Not wanting to go in a whole arguement and considering the fact many others have posted in the last 24 hours but I just could not stop myself from posting that one of the reasons I dislike this defintion is I have never ever been able to understand what people mean when they say some one is "hot" or that they think someone is "hot". 

 

If wanting to add even more, because I dont understand that concept I am now wondering if thinking someone is hot when you see them could actually be aesthetic attraction rather than sexual and if its not what is the difference that makes thinking that someone is "hot" sexual attraction rather than aesthetic. 

I'm asexual, I've never wanted sex for any reason, and I can find vehicles (I'm mecha) incredibly hot. There are many sexuals who don't find anyone hot, or if they do, it's their long-term partner(s) because of an emotional bond. The ability to find others (usually expressly or implied to be, strangers) hot has nothing to do with desiring sex, which is why the definition of sexual attraction being 'finds others hot' is... well... bollocks.

[Black Husky]

On 1/14/2020 at 11:37 PM, banana monkey said:

Not wanting to go in a whole arguement and considering the fact many others have posted in the last 24 hours but I just could not stop myself from posting that one of the reasons I dislike this defintion is I have never ever been able to understand what people mean when they say some one is "hot" or that they think someone is "hot". 

 

If wanting to add even more, because I dont understand that concept I am now wondering if thinking someone is hot when you see them could actually be aesthetic attraction rather than sexual and if its not what is the difference that makes thinking that someone is "hot" sexual attraction rather than aesthetic. 

To be honest, I don't understand what hot means either, I just heard about it from friends or through books. I tried my best to understand what they mean, even though I don't really. I just tried to describe something the way I think my friends would describe it. I don't know if it's accurate, I just thought it might help

[Iam9man]

On 1/14/2020 at 10:37 PM, banana monkey said:

If wanting to add even more, because I dont understand that concept I am now wondering if thinking someone is hot when you see them could actually be aesthetic attraction rather than sexual and if its not what is the difference that makes thinking that someone is "hot" sexual attraction rather than aesthetic. 

Yes, this. I essentially rethought my life when I realised finding some women hot, in my case, is just aesthetic attraction.

 

My belief is that I’m missing the link from aesthetic to sexual attraction, and sexual attraction itself. Up to that point, in my case, my reactions to a hot woman are identical to my heterosexual friends.

[Dan Moralez]

On 1/13/2020 at 12:44 PM, CBC said:

So, there's a difference between being able to enjoy some aspect of sex and liking it enough that you repeatedly seek it out. I was in a relationship for a number of years with someone who was sex-positive and willing, and able to enjoy the physical sensations (because, y'know, orgasms are nice and all). But had it ever occurred to him to seek it out with anyone, did he ever initiate when we were in a relationship? No. No innate desire there for sexual interaction with other people. At all. Couldn't give less of a shit if he ever had it again and would probably prefer not to because he found it stressful and unnecessary. So yeah, some aspects were alright or even pleasant for him if it happened, but he still had no inner motivation to pursue it. That's my understanding of asexuality. If you like sex enough to seek it out repeatedly... well, that's what makes a person sexual.

I feel like you just described me... I feel like I have a lot in common with your ex-partner - "stressful" and "unnecessary" for me, but pleasant and necessary for my partner. I enjoy the orgasm, but I want it to be done quickly... I don't mind if I spend months without sex or if I'm just on masturbation and, in fact, I gotta be in a really good mood in order to be able to do it and I only do it to please my fiancé who really feels the necessity of having sexual intercourse. We've been having a lot of arguments because I always tell him I'm tired and not in the mood for sex. I even think sometimes how great our relationship would be if we had sex only once every a couple of months. I sometimes watch porn but again, I only do it when I feel my hormones spiking up, even so it takes me a while to find a gay porn video that I feel like will make me cum and it doesn't take me more than 5 minutes to be done with it - which I interpret as not being into the video itself but just finding some aid to release that accumulated energy... then I'm back to normal again for a few weeks (sometimes months...). I just found this forum and I'm very grateful for your comment. I'm not assuming anything anytime now because it will cause a huge change to my life but it really gave me some insight on what I am experiencing.