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Political intervention on wearing hijab in non-muslim countries


thyristor

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12 minutes ago, elisabeth_II said:

Have you ever tried walking out that way? And, would it have to be a black burqua or could we invent some garment that can have patterns and colors on it? That would be, again, making a potential difference between people with/without what some would call taste, or coolness, or being appropriate etc.

Oh I'd be slaughtered if I tried I think!! First there's all the people who think it's disrespectful to Islam, then all the people who think it's disrespectful to women (they're probably the loudest and most violent), then there's all the conservative folks in the small town I live in who can't handle anything even remotely different. I'd love to, but it would be signing one's death warrant unfortunately! If I was to wear one though, black or natural are best because they don't show the coffee stains so much. :)

 

12 minutes ago, elisabeth_II said:

I more and more choose clothes according to what impact they have on the environment, which means, the less colors on them, the better.

My clothes are probably pretty 'environmentally friendly' in that most of them are very, very old; handed down from both my mum and grandma, some from my dad too. Even my underwear is second-hand lol. Many of my clothes are falling apart by now but weirdly the oldest among them (hand-knitted cardigans etc) hold together better than some of the 'newer' stuff, bought when my mum was younger!! Living below the poverty line can be beneficial in that sense I suppose because one can't buy new clothes or drive or anything like that, so one has less impact on the environment! ^_^

 

12 minutes ago, elisabeth_II said:

The cool thing is that on an internet forum like AVEN, you achieve exactly that, you are judged solely on what you write

Yes I always appreciated the lack of 'meat' present when communicating online. It's just minds communicating with minds with no flesh in between to get in the way :3 

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I think people in public should be able to wear whatever they want, as much or as little clothing as they want. You wanna cover yourself from head to toe like a ghost? Fine. You wanna walk around butt ass naked? Also fine, although I’d probably laugh at you.

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1 minute ago, Gloomy said:

should be able to wear whatever they want, [...] although I’d probably laugh at you.

That's a bit contradictory. If the law allows people to wear or not wear whatever they want, other people potentially laughing at them restricts who is actually 'able' to go dressed as they please, since many people can't take being laughed at. 🤷‍♀️😁

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30 minutes ago, Gloomy said:

I think people in public should be able to wear whatever they want, as much or as little clothing as they want.

This is why I am happy there are dress codes in grade school. I mean, kids are there to learn.

 

I remember in my city, a girl was up and arms, for being kicked out for wearing see through white yoga pants. To her, they are "comfortable". No f-s given on how she made others uncomfortable, due to her lack of under garments.

 

She took it to the media, and pressured the school to apologize for violating her rights.

 

Stuff like this, is what has me impatient to move overseas where I don't have to deal with overly entitled brats. The sickening part to me, is the support her parents gave her. 

 

You're my daughter and I find out you're going yoga pants and panty less to school, and you're getting grounded until you're 40.

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I only agree with intervention should the religious attire prevent safety. I.E Niqab's at airports. They should be banned. Period. You're there to fly. Religious beliefs fly out the window if you're compromising the safety of others.

 

Only thing that should be done in these instances, is teaching security staff religious sensibility and ethnic sensibility to deal with these cases. Rules should apply to all, period.

 

Same with driver license pictures. You get pulled over for speeding? Tough shit. Show me your face, or I arrest you and impound your car.

 

This is where I'd agree on heavy crack downs. On it's own though, wear what you want within reason. I don't care if you go to a mall in a Niqab as you're not affecting me. If I feel unsafe, this is my prejudice and not your attire.

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1 hour ago, elisabeth_II said:

That's a bit contradictory. If the law allows people to wear or not wear whatever they want, other people potentially laughing at them restricts who is actually 'able' to go dressed as they please, since many people can't take being laughed at. 🤷‍♀️😁

There's a huge difference between the government threatening you with violence if you do something and other people laughing at or judging you if you do it. There are things I'd like to wear in public but won't because I know it will probably bring me attention that I'd rather avoid, but that's my problem, not anyone else's.

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50 minutes ago, Perspektiv said:

No f-s given on how she made others uncomfortable, due to her lack of under garments.

 

She took it to the media, and pressured the school to apologize for violating her rights.

This is such a problem these days. Ok, centuries ago, we came from societies where the majority of people were repressed by an elite minority, and we found a way out of this by wording certain things as human rights. But somehow it has turned around and an egocentric minority of people screams about getting their rights violated in whatever flavor suits the situation. I hope that some day we will reach middle ground and stick with the purpose of the rights we grant.

 

I actually tried to address clothing in another thread, that I feel uncomfortable when people around me wear too sexy clothes. Apparently, my threshold was different from most other posters who were more tolerating. Interestingly, a lot of times, the right to wear whatever one wants was claimed. Well, yea, alright for me, but there is a threshold. And that girl you mentioned above obviously had a different threshold, and maybe a discussion about threshold would be adequate, but not a shitstorm about violating rights. And her parents probably didn't understand that parental instincts must be adjusted to the times we live in. Their daughter wasn't gonna die from being reprimanded, she had the chance to learn something about other people's minds and reactions, about her relation to the world around her. I'm not even trying to imagine the situation that she still wants to stick with those pants, I guess, since she displays her body to other minors, she would have to come to an aggreement with the whole community but most importantly, she was deprived of a chance of learning to exist with other people, her parents actually succeeded in building a thick wall around her, making her believe that she is a solitair.

 

Same with free speech. People tend to claim that right, as soon as someone questions what they said. Totally ignoring the purpose of granting such a right.

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28 minutes ago, Gloomy said:

There's a huge difference between the government threatening you with violence if you do something and other people laughing at or judging you if you do it.

True. So, back to the thread topic:

 

Debaters oftentimes think they are doing girls a favor if they advocate forbidding hijab in school. So, that implies that while girls are allowed to wear hijab in school now (in Sweden), people think that they are being judged because of it, judged as not being as free as boys, judged as being religious (whereas boys don't show the status of their believe through clothing) or whatnot. So, if a muslim girl wants to wear the hijab, but she feels that society is judging her, based on that, she is not truely free to wear it. A 40-yo lady maybe wouldn't give a shit about being judged, but a young girl?

 

From AVEN we all know that teens can question just about everything and also take on any tale that at the moment seems to make sense to them. They try different truths and occasionally stick with very treacherous ideas. I can't really blame those debaters that think they are giving girls a chance to realize that hijab is not compulsory, while at the same time declaring that muslim women don't feel free to wear or not to wear it, which is weird.

 

Still, I don't think a law against certain clothing would ever be anything good, and I guess all posters in this thread agreed on that...

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3 hours ago, elisabeth_II said:

And her parents probably didn't understand that parental instincts must be adjusted to the times we live in.

Parents like hers, essentially supported their teenage daughters exploring their sexuality and sensuality. To me, if you feel your daughter being sexy and getting laid is more important than good grades and career options--you're a horrible parent.

 

You're a parent, not a friend. Those who love blurring those lines too much, end up with bratty kids the rest of the world has to deal with. Your lazy parenting, is exactly why there are so many homeless kids, and just about every crime that is committed. Only when your kid gets killed, do you wish you had been a better parent, to boot.

 

I think rules should apply, or you'll get the morons who will break them to no avail.

 

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53 minutes ago, Perspektiv said:

Parents like hers, essentially supported their teenage daughters exploring their sexuality and sensuality.

Hmm, I don't really know the story, but my first thought was that they tried to protect their daughter from feeling bad about being reprimanded by a teacher, and/or tried to protect their family's reputation, as in: we educated our daughter well, no teacher/authority can come and tell us that she id something bad. Obviously, they need to express that by talking about the sexuality, cos they can't admit even to themselves that they just overreacted to feeling a little offended.

 

I had a pair of jeans with more wholes than fabric left on them, which I loved wearing. One day my teacher saw me from behind, realizing how bad it was, and she immediately just told me: you will not wear those jeans again or I'll talk to your mother. From that day on I wore leggings under them. And that's that. I felt offended, I might have cried a little, being told off by a teacher, which was not something I was very used to. But that was that. She was a teacher, I assumed that she had a point. Obviously, the helpful thing was exactly that I didn't usually get told off by teachers. It was the fact that it was standing out that made me trust her judgement. And I wouldn't be able to imagine my mother walking into the headoffice asking the school to apologize to me or something, that would have been so not on the map....

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I am firmly atheistic. I find all of the religious stuff.. well, religion. However, I would not be in a position to dictate to others what they believe.

 

The trick to this question is minors. I'm fine with someone wearing a hijab out of personal choice, but a kid being indoctrinated is another question. I would lean towards not outlawing any kind of self expression, though, wrong or otherwise 😉

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21 minutes ago, elisabeth_II said:

Hmm, I don't really know the story, but my first thought was that they tried to protect their daughter from feeling bad about being reprimanded by a teacher

This could be it, but the main comment was her being "slut shamed" for dressing how she dressed (she was kicked out of class). They then threw in some sexism card in there, and women's plight in sexuality in being made into sexual objects (she was deemed a distraction, hence the teacher taking such action).

 

Throw in several parents commenting at their disgust with the school, for not letting her dress like she wants, lost on the fact she wore inappropriate clothing.

 

Now with an inflated ego, they then had an entire school walk out, and cue in the violins in her being cast as victim forcing the school to back down and consider changing their dress code to accommodate her inability to take consequences to her own idiocy.

 

Essentially, being lost on the irony, in letting their daughter go to school in clothing that put her genitals on display. Yoga pants aren't the issue. I've allowed staff to wear them to work. However, if my clients can clearly see your genitals and know what color your panties are--we have a problem, and yes this is a distraction. Not because of your plight, but because I shouldn't be able to tell whether you got a Brazillian wax or not, when purchasing a birthday card.

 

It would be like me protesting the news making black people all look like criminals, by robbing their branch.

 

I could walk in a mall with a sign stating I must wear shoes, and then pull the race card when kicked out, because barefooted walks is how I roll because I'm comfortable.

 

I see this as the same as pressuring someone to stop wearing religious attire, because you don't like it (just reversing the victim). Only instance for me for a government to intervene, is it becoming a safety issue. And by issue, I don't mean one thinking they may be terrorists.

 

Inappropriate clothing codes use some common sense, which many don't have which is why they have to be strictly enforced in some settings.

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J. van Deijck

I live in  Belgium and there's a lot of Muslim people here, just like in Sweden. Every time I see a Muslim woman somewhere, she does wear a hijab and her hair is completely covered. I believe this is a part of their culture and how they've been raised, and as long as they don't cover their faces with burqa or something like this, I'm okay with that. It's always okay for me if I can see more of somebody's face than just eyes.

So far these muslim people that I know or see haven't done any harm to us European residents, so that's okay if they want to live there; I don't judge people. However, there were several terrorist attacks across the Europe, so it's not very surprising for me that people are pretty cautious towards them. You can never be 100% sure what's within another person's mind. But, as I said, I don't judge. If you're behaving well, I am okay with you.

But I also quite agree with @Skycaptain, meaning if you're in a country other than your country of birth, you are a guest there and so you should respect the local culture and not try to force your own on everyone around. Privately at home you can be whoever you want to be, though.

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Anyone can do what they want, but if they try to force it for "protection against xy and z" then you should ban it. I for one, and pro-assimilation. You will not have cohesion in a society without conformity. 

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