thyristor Posted January 10, 2020 Share Posted January 10, 2020 In Europe we currently have lots of debates about the hijab (head covering for muslimahs), the core questions are roughly these: should it be forbidden in school so that muslim households are forced into the Swedish culture and forced to "stop repressing" their girls? Or should every girl be able to decide for herself whether she wants to wear the hijab or not? First of all, I (not muslim, brought up in christian tradition) usually try to imagine what it would be like for me, if I were to immigrate into some djungle tribe where women go barebreasted. Would I feel comfortable doing it? (I never come to any stable conclusion, but the analogy is the one I've come up with since these debates started) But on the other hand, this is so much not the whole story. There are also a lot of romani women dressed in their beautiful but bulky-looking long skirts. And thinking of other discussions on this forum about women's clothing, one aspect is convenience. Wearing a hijab or a romani skirt doesn't seem very convenient to me. So, why, even if it were part of expressing my culture for me, would I keep wearing it, if I don't have to? Why do other women wear highheels although they don't have to? There are many other aspects on this, and many similar questions that can be used to relate in this discussion, too many for me to state them all in this opening post, but I'm sure they will turn up... Mostly I'm curious about muslimahs' reasoning about and feelings towards wearing or not wearing hijab. So, putting the highheels- and romani-skirt-reasons back to off-topic/related parenthesis: Why do women continue to wear a hijab even if they don't have to? Is it for religious reasons? Then the question goes like this: why would a God be worth worshiping if they only like me if I wear a certain type of clothing? And how do muslimahs feel about political intervention on wearing or not wearing hijab in non-muslim countries? @Samin Al'Jamil Link to post Share on other sites
PoeciMeta Posted January 10, 2020 Share Posted January 10, 2020 3 minutes ago, elisabeth_II said: why would a God be worth worshiping if they only like me if I wear a certain type of clothing? Because otherwise They send you to hell? Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted January 10, 2020 Share Posted January 10, 2020 7 minutes ago, elisabeth_II said: should it be forbidden in school so that muslim households are forced into the Swedish culture and forced to "stop repressing" their girls? I hope you appreciate the irony here. They should have the right to religious freedom. Taking this away is doing no different than your perception of their loss of power. Link to post Share on other sites
thyristor Posted January 10, 2020 Author Share Posted January 10, 2020 5 minutes ago, PoeciMeta said: Because otherwise They send you to hell? Probably I'd rather go there, than support a God who is this selfish, because that would be wrong in my eyes and I couldn't support anything that is wrong, even if it were a truth in my life. Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted January 10, 2020 Share Posted January 10, 2020 Bleh, idiots. All of them. Wear whatever the fuck you want. Just don't tell people how to live their lives and vice versa. Is it really that hard for a government to understand? Link to post Share on other sites
uniQChick Posted January 10, 2020 Share Posted January 10, 2020 @elisabeth_II >>> What does the Quran really say about a Muslim woman's hijab? (Samina Ali @ TEDx University of Nevada) Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted January 10, 2020 Share Posted January 10, 2020 Just now, elisabeth_II said: Probably I'd rather go there, than support a God who is this selfish, because that would be wrong in my eyes and I couldn't support anything that is wrong, even if it were a truth in my life. Personally I find most Abrahamic religions to have a God like this. Especially Christianity which is the religion I grew up in. Also with this thought, I'm surprised you haven't applied to this your religion. Unless you have and I just don't know. I'm curious to here from a Muslim on this. I grew up very sheltered from other religions. Link to post Share on other sites
thyristor Posted January 10, 2020 Author Share Posted January 10, 2020 2 minutes ago, Perspektiv said: They should have the right to religious freedom As soon as religious symbols are involved, people tend to debate about religious freedom. But that implies that religion is something static and that the religious manifestation is truely exactly in its whole what that divine entity craves. How come people never question whether hijab is a necessary part of Islam? A person has the right to pray to whatever God they want, but one must be allowed to question whether their respective community got it all right with the rules around that? Link to post Share on other sites
Homer Posted January 10, 2020 Share Posted January 10, 2020 1 minute ago, elisabeth_II said: How come people never question whether hijab is a necessary part of Islam? The way I see it, religion isn't about questioning things. Link to post Share on other sites
thyristor Posted January 10, 2020 Author Share Posted January 10, 2020 3 minutes ago, KrysLost said: Is it really that hard for a government to understand? Yes, it is hard for them, because what they assumingly try to do is help a minority of repressed people get out of repression. The hard part is understanding whether it is repression going on at all and whether the instantiation of it through clothes is the right aspect to use for addressing the root problem whichm ight be something else. Link to post Share on other sites
thyristor Posted January 10, 2020 Author Share Posted January 10, 2020 Just now, Homer said: The way I see it, religion isn't about questioning things. Hasn't been traditionally, but I don't see any reason why we shouldn't start with it. Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted January 10, 2020 Share Posted January 10, 2020 Just now, elisabeth_II said: Yes, it is hard for them, because what they assumingly try to do is help a minority of repressed people get out of repression. The hard part is understanding whether it is repression going on at all and whether the instantiation of it through clothes is the right aspect to use for addressing the root problem whichm ight be something else. It doesn't take brilliance to acknowledge what an individual does is their choice. I'd say it's actually difficult when religion and liberal stuff cross over. Such as the whole wedding cake and gay marriage ordeal. Link to post Share on other sites
thyristor Posted January 10, 2020 Author Share Posted January 10, 2020 4 minutes ago, KrysLost said: your religion. I was brought up with Christian traditions, questioned the tale in my youth, got to believe in God through a certain circumstance I was in, but didn't believe in Jesus, so, didn't stick with catholic church (exited at 13 yrs), had my own religion so to speak, then later somehow started believing in Jesus anyway but am now out of it all again. The Swedish church, former state church, but now separated, is a protestant one, and it is one of the most welcoming churches I know of, and I believe that, although I don't believe in God anymore, it could well be the case that the Swedish church will be a seed for a common spiritual infrastructure that might be needed in most communities... oh, this is getting way off topic, another time.... anyways, I don't have a religion anymore, and when I had one, I required it do be to the peoples' best. 3 minutes ago, KrysLost said: It doesn't take brilliance to acknowledge what an individual does is their choice. I don't think it's that easy. It sometimes takes a ton of courage to choose a certain alternative over another, and it sometimes is not even obvious to the inidividual that other choices are available. I'm not saying that I'm pro forbidding hijab in schools. I really don't think it would be leeding anywhere good. I just don't really consent that the question is as easy as individual choice. Link to post Share on other sites
MarRister Posted January 10, 2020 Share Posted January 10, 2020 I am not a Muslim, so can't speak to all the reasons why someone might feel like wearing a hijab, but from what I understand it is about showing modesty. And this is not only a Muslim thing, it is present in a lot of Christian denominations as well. Nuns wear their habits, and it is also present in my own religious background, which was Mennonite. In traditional Mennonite communities women wear a type of head cover, and this is the same for Hutterite, and Amish communities as well, which come from fairly similar origins. Sikh women can choose to wear head coverings, and I believe there are also head coverings for women in Judaism as well. So If the government is going to start banning hijabs, it would only make sense they should have to ban all of these other things as well, but that is probably not on the table since for whatever reason they aren't seen as "scary" or oppressive. I think trying to free women from oppression by taking away their rights to dress how they choose is a ridiculous thought and totally goes against all logic in my head. And while I am not religious and don't like religion for the most part, I am all for respecting peoples right to practice their faith however they see fit as long as it isn't harming anyone else. I can understand in some cases where something like a niqab could cause issues since the face is hidden, but a hijab clearly shows their face, and it is just intolerance and racism in my mind to try and ban it. I also think that this comes with issues due to it solely targeting women's rights. I wouldn't let my boyfriend tell me what I can and can't wear, why should the government be able to? It is not their place and shouldn't be their place in our society. End rant. Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted January 10, 2020 Share Posted January 10, 2020 7 minutes ago, elisabeth_II said: I was brought up with Christian traditions, questioned the tale in my youth, got to believe in God through a certain circumstance I was in, but didn't believe in Jesus, so, didn't stick with catholic church (exited at 13 yrs), had my own religion so to speak, then later somehow started believing in Jesus anyway but am now out of it all again. The Swedish church, former state church, but now separated, is a protestant one, and it is one of the most welcoming churches I know of, and I believe that, although I don't believe in God anymore, it could well be the case that the Swedish church will be a seed for a common spiritual infrastructure that might be needed in most communities... oh, this is getting way off topic, another time.... anyways, I don't have a religion anymore, and when I had one, I required it do be to the peoples' best. I don't think it's that easy. It sometimes takes a ton of courage to choose a certain alternative over another, and it sometimes is not even obvious to the inidividual that other choices are available. I'm not saying that I'm pro forbidding hijab in schools. I really don't think it would be leeding anywhere good. I just don't really consent that the question is as easy as individual choice. Sorry, I assumed you were Muslim by your topic lol. Link to post Share on other sites
RoseGoesToYale Posted January 10, 2020 Share Posted January 10, 2020 This always reminds me of this comic: Spoiler From what I've heard online and from muslim women themselves, the decision to wear a hijab (or chador or niqab) or not is personal and connected to the individual's spirituality. Especially in countries with democracies, muslim women are free to decide how express their religious beliefs. I myself don't adhere to any religion, but I believe in freedom of conscience, freedom of association, and freedom of expression, which extends to clothing as well. Makes no difference to me whether the only thing I see is a person's eyes or nothing but a speedo. 34 minutes ago, elisabeth_II said: why would a God be worth worshiping if they only like me if I wear a certain type of clothing? Also from what I've heard, this is a misconception. The Bible and the Quran are very similar. Both make mentions of modesty as a lifestyle... but all different branches of theism and Islam interpret that differently. I have never heard any muslim person say that Allah would reject them if they didn't dress a certain way. What counts as "modesty" also varies widely from country to culture to point in history. In the western world, it's still held that humans should cover their chest/breasts, bottoms and genitals in day to day life, and this is an extension from older Christian influence on society. Though men are allowed to show their chest in certain situations, in predominantly muslim countries, I don't think this is the case. I don't know all the details, but dress within muslim denominations is a lot more complex than simply "God said so". Also... some women use the hijab as a form of style expression. Google "hijab fashion". Link to post Share on other sites
thyristor Posted January 10, 2020 Author Share Posted January 10, 2020 40 minutes ago, uniQChick said: @elisabeth_II >>> What does the Quran really say about a Muslim woman's hijab? (Samina Ali @ TEDx University of Nevada) That talk was amazing! To summarize it a bit for those who don't care to watch, it's 17 minutes: Back in the prophet's days was a problem of men attacking women when they went outside town in the night to take a pee in privacy; they attacked those who looked like slaves, but not those who dressed like free women. Hence they asked the prophet for help and the prophet was inspired to one (1) verse, stating that God told him to tell the women to dress with a garment so that they not be known. That is, in that time, as an answer to that problem. There were later inserted parantheses to explain what a garment is, but those were not divinely inspired (but guess what they explain...). Elsewhere there were only two other verses about the clothing of women, one of which actually askes women to cover their breasts (but doesn't say anything about any other bodyparts at all), and hijab is not mentioned as a woman's piece of clothing anywhere, but means descretion or separation or privacy, as in the privacy that Mary sought when she gave birth to Jesus. And one of Mohammed's wives was head of a large trading company/caravan and she met him because she hired him, and later proposed to him, another was a war general. Like I said. Nothing wrong about religions, but we must be allowed to question their earthly outcomes... Link to post Share on other sites
Zara Al'Jamil Posted January 10, 2020 Share Posted January 10, 2020 Wearing hijab should be a choice, no one should be forced into either "box". Don't force anyone either way. Link to post Share on other sites
the great acescape Posted January 10, 2020 Share Posted January 10, 2020 I don't really have a lot of knowledge regarding the cultural and religious significance of the hijab/niqab, and honestly even if I did I'd prefer to stay in my lane on this matter. I think if there are conversations being had amongst Muslim women about this, then it's best to defer to that. Although to be clear, I think government intervention is not warranted, especially if it's facilitated by a mostly white and male government in response to a subject they largely either don't understand or don't wish to understand. Link to post Share on other sites
uhtred Posted January 11, 2020 Share Posted January 11, 2020 Different cultures have different ideas of modesty. Many western women would be uncomfortable going topless in public. I would not be comfortable going swimming naked if I were to visit a place were that was the norm. That said, it can be difficult to separate truly voluntary clothing choices from those that are culturally forced on women. Separate from that, there is a desire by police for people to have their faces uncovered so that they can be identified / tracked. So what are my feelings: I would allow complete covering if a woman desires to do so, because I think the underlying default should be to assume that women are capable of making their own informed choices. I accept that that choice will reduce the information that law enforcement collects, and accept that increased risk of criminal activity - in fact I believe law enforcement already collects too much information. The question of what behavioral restrictions religions should be allowed to put on people is an extremely complex one. Circumcision is to me a far more difficult question of religiously imposed actions, than is clothing. Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted January 11, 2020 Share Posted January 11, 2020 1 hour ago, RoseGoesToYale said: I have never heard any muslim person say that Allah would reject them if they didn't dress a certain way. Yeah but you ALWAYS hear that God/Allah/whoever will reject you if you don't behave in a certain way, if you don't worship in a certain way, if you don't think in a certain way. Heck often even if you don't love in a certain way. That's why I reject any religion that tries to control the way an individual thinks, feels, and behaves (oh wait, that's all of them!) 2 hours ago, elisabeth_II said: Why do women continue to wear a hijab even if they don't have to? My feelings on it are considered very offensive to many. Because in my perfect world, I'd wear a burka-like garment and I know other female-bodied people who would as well (my own mother being one!). But THAT is considered the greatest and most horrid and most culturally insensitive insult.. and the idea of such a garment is just automatically offensive to most. A Muslim woman can wear a hijab or not, it's up to her.. And I agree with everyone else that no woman should be be forced to wear one, and no Muslim woman should be forced not to wear one. She should do what she is comfortable with. But god forbid any non-Islamic woman wear a burka-like garment. Heck, even an Islamic woman would be treading dangerous territory if she tried to wear one here in NZ. People weirdly see wanting to cover yourself entirely, including your eyes, as a sign of dangerous levels of insanity, and find it deeply, deeply offensive. I don't understand it!! I could walk out of my house in a mini skirt and a crop top right now and no one would blink an eye.. but I'd be literally attacked (for multiple different reasons) if I tried to wear a garment that went from the top of my head to the bottom of my feet, that also covered my eyes. It's frustrating, because if someone chooses to wear it (not being forced by religion or whatever) then it would actually be an amazing garment for people who don't want to be seen but still have to leave the house 😕 Yet whenever I've mentioned this before everyone gets highly offended. Meep. 1 hour ago, RoseGoesToYale said: I have never heard any muslim person say that Allah would reject them if they didn't dress a certain way. Also back to this, I was just watching a documentary the other day which was interviewing acid attack victims (muslim women, Islam women etc) and some had had acid thrown over them for something as simple as wearing pants.. and that wasn't even uncommon exactly. So there are still people who enforce violent regulations regardless of what their religion itself may say about what Allah does or does not want Link to post Share on other sites
Lonemathsytoothbrushthief Posted January 11, 2020 Share Posted January 11, 2020 5 minutes ago, uhtred said: Different cultures have different ideas of modesty. Many western women would be uncomfortable going topless in public. I would not be comfortable going swimming naked if I were to visit a place were that was the norm. That said, it can be difficult to separate truly voluntary clothing choices from those that are culturally forced on women. Separate from that, there is a desire by police for people to have their faces uncovered so that they can be identified / tracked. So what are my feelings: I would allow complete covering if a woman desires to do so, because I think the underlying default should be to assume that women are capable of making their own informed choices. I accept that that choice will reduce the information that law enforcement collects, and accept that increased risk of criminal activity - in fact I believe law enforcement already collects too much information. The question of what behavioral restrictions religions should be allowed to put on people is an extremely complex one. Circumcision is to me a far more difficult question of religiously imposed actions, than is clothing. I 100% agree with this answer, perfectly summarised. Actually the notion that niqab and the likes are any hindrance to police if they actually plan to do their jobs is hilarious to me. There are so few muslims who cover their faces entirely that it would in itself be used to identify them. They're going to be racially profiled, they're the last people who would be able to go unnoticed by police. The way our states behave is horrible in this, it's just gaslighting to spread such an obvious lie which also shifts blame from police incompetence, as if crimes won't be solved if people's behaviour doesn't conform even more to guidelines helping police do their job. Link to post Share on other sites
Lonemathsytoothbrushthief Posted January 11, 2020 Share Posted January 11, 2020 7 minutes ago, Pan Ficto. (on hiatus?) said: Yeah but you ALWAYS hear that God/Allah/whoever will reject you if you don't behave in a certain way, if you don't worship in a certain way, if you don't think in a certain way. Heck often even if you don't love in a certain way. That's why I reject any religion that tries to control the way an individual thinks, feels, and behaves (oh wait, that's all of them!) My feelings on it are considered very offensive to many. Because in my perfect world, I'd wear a burka-like garment and I know other female-bodied people who would as well (my own mother being one!). But THAT is considered the greatest and most horrid and most culturally insensitive insult.. and the idea of such a garment is just automatically offensive to most. A Muslim woman can wear a hijab or not, it's up to her.. And I agree with everyone else that no woman should be be forced to wear one, and no Muslim woman should be forced not to wear one. She should do what she is comfortable with. But god forbid any non-Islamic woman wear a burka-like garment. Heck, even an Islamic woman would be treading dangerous territory if she tried to wear one here in NZ. People weirdly see wanting to cover yourself entirely, including your eyes, as a sign of dangerous levels of insanity, and find it deeply, deeply offensive. I don't understand it!! I could walk out of my house in a mini skirt and a crop top right now and no one would blink an eye.. but I'd be literally attacked (for multiple different reasons) if I tried to wear a garment that went from the top of my head to the bottom of my feet, that also covered my eyes. It's frustrating, because if someone chooses to wear it (not being forced by religion or whatever) then it would actually be an amazing garment for people who don't want to be seen but still have to leave the house 😕 Yet whenever I've mentioned this before everyone gets highly offended. Meep. Also back to this, I was just watching a documentary the other day which was interviewing acid attack victims (muslim women, Islam women etc) and some had had acid thrown over them for something as simple as wearing pants.. and that wasn't even uncommon exactly. So there are still people who enforce violent regulations regardless of what their religion itself may say about what Allah does or does not want Although I disagree with any anti theistic stuff on the basis that religions aren't the root causes of much authoritarianism within communities/countries(I say communities because of course there's an effect in growing up under authoritarian governments though of course that's every government anyway ), I agree with you that burqas and similar clothes should be seen as just another way to express yourself, dress yourself, be able to go out unseen if you want(though as you note they attract extreme amounts of attention because of how they're viewed) etc. Like, apart from the history of muslim societies which I find beautiful, there are people with skin conditions who struggle to go outside because of allergies etc, so yeah I can see a lot of reasons why people should have the option of wearing such clothing, aside from how it's important to muslims who choose it. And to the people complaining about not seeing your face, I say maybe you should consider what it's like for people with prosopagnosia! Link to post Share on other sites
thyristor Posted January 11, 2020 Author Share Posted January 11, 2020 23 minutes ago, Lonemathsytoothbrushthief said: Although I disagree with any anti theistic stuff on the basis that religions aren't the root causes of much authoritarianism This! ^^ It's not the religions, it's how leaders abuse the right to interpret them and how individuals are scared/not used to/too spiritually confused in order to question that. Link to post Share on other sites
thyristor Posted January 11, 2020 Author Share Posted January 11, 2020 41 minutes ago, Pan Ficto. (on hiatus?) said: an amazing garment for people who don't want to be seen but still have to leave the house I never had the urge to do that or even thought of that aspect, but now that you say it, it sounds reasonable to have this option. One must also leave their phone inside the house or NSA sees you anyway 😃 Still, I'd wonder what society that would be. Despite the garment, my neighbours have a big chance of knowing anyway, since they see me coming out of my house, and probably, even with a covering gown, body size and the way you walk might mike you identifiable. And downtown, nobody knows me anyway, covered or not. Obviously, there are situations between the two, but why would I want to not be seen? Unless there were a way to be truely invisible, that'd be great. On the other hand, when I pull the hood of my winterjacket over my head, no one sees my face (and I myself can hardly see), but obviously, putting on a winterjacket in summer would seem odd. 51 minutes ago, Pan Ficto. (on hiatus?) said: Because in my perfect world, I'd wear a burka-like garment What are the reasons then? (other than not being recognized) Have we had any muslim people in this thread except @Samin Al'Jamil? As not muslim, I am used to adjust my clothing several times a day due to temperature, sweater on, sweater off, scarf round my neck on/off, short sleeves/long sleeves. I guess one gets used to it, but wearing a hijab all day long seems to me like a limitation in regulating percieved temperature, and although I know people who walk in shorts all year round, and others who wear a sweater all year round, clearly not every individual in a whole culture is this way. I just can't get the feeling out of my head that the hijab, how ever freely one chooses to wear it, is something additional. All the clothes I wear, I choose to wear because I don't want to freeze, except for underwear: panties for hygenic reasons but interestingly, I didn't wear a bra until my early twenties actually, and I guess the reason I started was to look better. So, a muslimah who gets up in the morning and chooses to put on her hijab; why? To identify as muslimah? To shelter her hair from dust? To look better? To keep warm? To look modest? To follow the norm? To please god? To please the community? Link to post Share on other sites
Zara Al'Jamil Posted January 11, 2020 Share Posted January 11, 2020 29 minutes ago, elisabeth_II said: I never had the urge to do that or even thought of that aspect, but now that you say it, it sounds reasonable to have this option. One must also leave their phone inside the house or NSA sees you anyway 😃 Still, I'd wonder what society that would be. Despite the garment, my neighbours have a big chance of knowing anyway, since they see me coming out of my house, and probably, even with a covering gown, body size and the way you walk might mike you identifiable. And downtown, nobody knows me anyway, covered or not. Obviously, there are situations between the two, but why would I want to not be seen? Unless there were a way to be truely invisible, that'd be great. On the other hand, when I pull the hood of my winterjacket over my head, no one sees my face (and I myself can hardly see), but obviously, putting on a winterjacket in summer would seem odd. What are the reasons then? (other than not being recognized) Have we had any muslim people in this thread except @Samin Al'Jamil? As not muslim, I am used to adjust my clothing several times a day due to temperature, sweater on, sweater off, scarf round my neck on/off, short sleeves/long sleeves. I guess one gets used to it, but wearing a hijab all day long seems to me like a limitation in regulating percieved temperature, and although I know people who walk in shorts all year round, and others who wear a sweater all year round, clearly not every individual in a whole culture is this way. I just can't get the feeling out of my head that the hijab, how ever freely one chooses to wear it, is something additional. All the clothes I wear, I choose to wear because I don't want to freeze, except for underwear: panties for hygenic reasons but interestingly, I didn't wear a bra until my early twenties actually, and I guess the reason I started was to look better. So, a muslimah who gets up in the morning and chooses to put on her hijab; why? To identify as muslimah? To shelter her hair from dust? To look better? To keep warm? To look modest? To follow the norm? To please god? To please the community? Well I wear it because it's part of who I am. It's a way of physically identifying as a Muslim. On other days I might choose to wear a topi/kufi if I'm feeling masculine. Modesty is a way of not complying with the idea that some people are better than others because of how they look. For example: thin people are better, light skins are better, and so on. I believe it was created to keep people equal. But the patriarchy took that and turned it against people. It has been used for oppression, I am reclaiming and I ask all other Muslims to do the same if you feel compelled to do so. All genders, not just men or just women, or just non-binaries, everyone. Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted January 11, 2020 Share Posted January 11, 2020 1 hour ago, elisabeth_II said: What are the reasons then? (other than not being recognized) Oh because I don't want to be seen!!! Not that I don't want to be recognised (no one knows me anyway but I don't care if people know who I am as an individual) but I don't want humans to see me; I don't want my body seen, I don't want my face seen, I don't want my expression seen, I don't want my hair seen, I don't want my individual clothes seen.. because I feel safe that way. I feel secure when people can't look at me and make their secret judgements based on what they see. Being seen is like a vulnerability, people can look at you and make their judgements and conclusions based on your teeth and your hair and your eyes and your body-shape. I have massive issues with being seen (I have no friends or even acquaintances in 'real life' because of this). I'm just not comfortable with being viewed. With being seen physically as a person or as a human. I'd rather be a shape.. Like if I was dressed in a burqa-like robe I'd just be the shape of a dark ghost. I could still get the shopping done, go for my walk to get my exercise, but I wouldn't be *seen*, and that invisibility to me is total comfort Edit: and no one could judge my looks and body etc as better or worse than anyone else's, because no one could see me. Link to post Share on other sites
Skycaptain Posted January 11, 2020 Share Posted January 11, 2020 I respect local cultures, I don't impose my opinion on them. So if I'm in a Muslim country I wouldn't drink alcohol, or eat pork, if I'm in somewhere like India, I'd expect not to be served beef as cows are sacred. Ergo if people want to impose their culture on where I live tough. We allow religious freedom, so it's very easy to build or convert an old building into a place of worship, for example. That's fine. People want to have a street stall making passers-by aware of their belief structure fine. But if you're say, a taxi driver, don't stop for prayers if you have a passenger on board, unless it's agreed beforehand, - by all means if either both parties are of the same belief system, or the client agrees, then yes. If an individual wishes to wear a certain style of clothing then, within reason, they should be allowed to. By which I mean there will be health and safety issues why some clothing should or should not be worn in some places. If you wear something ethnically inappropriate, (a fur coat at vegan festival as an extreme example) then I'd have zero sympathy if you get shunned. However in Europe the main debate has very little to do with "is it right that devotees of a belief be made to wear a hijab", its more to do with terrorism. Since rise of the Taliban, IS, various wars, terrorist attacks, Islamophobia etc, a vocal proportion of the western population are fearful of people walking around with their faces covered. Unfortunately an idiot minority are, as has gone on for centuries, using religion as an excuse to commit crimes against the general population, and ruining it for the majority who just want live a trouble-free life and don't care about which sacred text their neighbours follow. Ultimately if Bush and Blair hadn't conducted an illegal invasion of Iraq, chances are this debate wouldn't be happening Link to post Share on other sites
Lonemathsytoothbrushthief Posted January 11, 2020 Share Posted January 11, 2020 4 hours ago, Skycaptain said: I respect local cultures, I don't impose my opinion on them. So if I'm in a Muslim country I wouldn't drink alcohol, or eat pork, if I'm in somewhere like India, I'd expect not to be served beef as cows are sacred. Ergo if people want to impose their culture on where I live tough. We allow religious freedom, so it's very easy to build or convert an old building into a place of worship, for example. That's fine. People want to have a street stall making passers-by aware of their belief structure fine. But if you're say, a taxi driver, don't stop for prayers if you have a passenger on board, unless it's agreed beforehand, - by all means if either both parties are of the same belief system, or the client agrees, then yes. If an individual wishes to wear a certain style of clothing then, within reason, they should be allowed to. By which I mean there will be health and safety issues why some clothing should or should not be worn in some places. If you wear something ethnically inappropriate, (a fur coat at vegan festival as an extreme example) then I'd have zero sympathy if you get shunned. However in Europe the main debate has very little to do with "is it right that devotees of a belief be made to wear a hijab", its more to do with terrorism. Since rise of the Taliban, IS, various wars, terrorist attacks, Islamophobia etc, a vocal proportion of the western population are fearful of people walking around with their faces covered. Unfortunately an idiot minority are, as has gone on for centuries, using religion as an excuse to commit crimes against the general population, and ruining it for the majority who just want live a trouble-free life and don't care about which sacred text their neighbours follow. Ultimately if Bush and Blair hadn't conducted an illegal invasion of Iraq, chances are this debate wouldn't be happening This argument is so ridiculous though because if anyone should be excused from their reactions based on past experiences it would be the minorities who were targeted by al qaeda and all the other various groups. Muslims have been persecuted by these terrorists SO MUCH MORE than white westerners, so if you tell me I'm supposed to be afraid of terrorists and have some sort of association I ask you, why would I be more afraid of them than my own government, the DWP, a fall down the stairs or right wing white extremists? It's some sort of weird monopoly of persecution when white people act like we were ever harmed to such an extent. Instead of yazidi, kurdish, yemeni, sudanese, actual muslims who should have been treated so much better either as refugees or in their own countries where the west has trampled all over their politics. There are so many more muslims who need help than ever committed any violence, that argument is just wrong. Link to post Share on other sites
thyristor Posted January 11, 2020 Author Share Posted January 11, 2020 9 hours ago, Pan Ficto. (on hiatus?) said: With being seen physically as a person or as a human. I'd rather be a shape.. Like if I was dressed in a burqa-like robe I'd just be the shape of a dark ghost. Interesting. So much to learn on AVEN.... People usually lift this as an argument for school uniforms, but obviously they do only half the job since they only level out differences in clothing, not in bodily appearance. Have you ever tried walking out that way? And, would it have to be a black burqua or could we invent some garment that can have patterns and colors on it? That would be, again, making a potential difference between people with/without what some would call taste, or coolness, or being appropriate etc. The cool thing is that on an internet forum like AVEN, you achieve exactly that, you are judged solely on what you write, not what you look like, although, I must admit, some avatars have me making assumptions about people. So... I guess... the garment needs to be all black.... But that sounds truely depressing to me. I more and more choose clothes according to what impact they have on the environment, which means, the less colors on them, the better. I'm struggeling how to explain to people how I can expect the world to walk around in mourning. To do it for the environment seems still plausible to me. But to do it because I'm afraid of helping other people judging me as better or judging others as worse than me is just a terrible critique for humanity. 4 hours ago, Skycaptain said: However in Europe the main debate has very little to do with "is it right that devotees of a belief be made to wear a hijab", its more to do with terrorism. True to some part, but many of the parttakers in the debate in Sweden, both private individuals and speakers for organizations, truely think of it as helping oppressed women. If I'm right, the hijab does not cover the face. Forbidding burqua is a debate with a whole lot of other dimensions to it. 6 minutes ago, Lonemathsytoothbrushthief said: Muslims have been persecuted by these terrorists SO MUCH MORE than white westerners True. Western politicians act no better than any uneducated tribal leaders who feel offended ans start war when someone says something funny about their mum. I stumbled across this TEDx also yesterday, which was just as hopeful to watch as the earlier linked one by @uniQChick: The muslim on the plane Link to post Share on other sites
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