Gender conforming versus non conforming trans people

[Lonemathsytoothbrushthief]

A lot of the time I see trans people be immediately associated with gender nonconformity, and while this is true to an extent, I also think there's a division between gender conforming and non conforming trans people as well. Even for non binary people, what I'm talking about isn't really to do with passing versus non passing but how easily our narratives, identities and presentations fit into mainstream society aside from the aspect where trans people in general don't fit into society and the ways that passing plays into this.

 

How do people view masculine trans women, feminine trans men, those who have less conventional medical transitions(eg breast reductions rather than top surgery for trans men, even AFAB non binary people seem to be looked down on and some trans women going without breast augmentation)? What sorts of social roles are there for non binary people which might lead some to be treated better than others? This includes how AMAB non binary people are often ignored, and pressure on us either to be more stereotypically masculine or not stereotypically anything - like how in some positions non binary people are expected to eschew all gender stereotypes for example those writing for certain outlets, or modelling. Whereas in other spaces binary pronouns plus more stereotypically binary presentation can allow non binary people to be more accepted.

[Galactic Turtle]

22 minutes ago, Lonemathsytoothbrushthief said:

How do people view masculine trans women, feminine trans men, those who have less conventional medical transitions(eg breast reductions rather than top surgery for trans men

I am still under the assumption that when people are interacting with those around them, they are perceiving people primarily as the male sex or the female sex. When encountering someone's whose appearance is non-normative, that's probably when most people start thinking about gender or sexuality. So in this case I'd assume that a masculine trans woman is either perceived as a gay man or a trans woman who doesn't "pass." But anything that sticks out visually is more likely to cause someone on some level to make sense of it and given the current cultural climate, I think most people are going to assume it has something to do with gender rather than just a cis person preferring a specific style of clothing.

 

22 minutes ago, Lonemathsytoothbrushthief said:

AFAB non binary people seem to be looked down on and some trans women going without breast augmentation)?

I don't know what to make of this! I'd just assume that for an average "bro," a girl who all of a sudden starts going by nonbinary but doesn't make any physical changes still looks entirely what they think a girl would look like and so they'll still be treated the same way. In my environment, this is often equated to being looked down on in various ways. Meanwhile for trans women who are most likely going out of their way to incorporate stereotypically feminine things into their appearance, breasts are viewed to be ultra important (dare I say especially in the eyes of men?) that this would be a focal point that could draw ridicule if they are absent... kind of like how flat chested women can get made fun of.

 

22 minutes ago, Lonemathsytoothbrushthief said:

This includes how AMAB non binary people are often ignored, and pressure on us either to be more stereotypically masculine or not stereotypically anything

I really think people just don't know what to do with nonbinary except use different pronouns but at least in my experience when looking at nonbinary people my brain still processes them as male or female and in my environment (professional theater) they are still categorized as such for all practical things (roommate assignments, dressing room assignments, character roles, etc.). 

 

22 minutes ago, Lonemathsytoothbrushthief said:

like how in some positions non binary people are expected to eschew all gender stereotypes for example those writing for certain outlets, or modeling. Whereas in other spaces binary pronouns plus more stereotypically binary presentation can allow non binary people to be more accepted.

In occupations that rely on appearance, I assume people are made to look conventionally attractive or conventionally what the character is supposed to look like. Let's say you're AFAB nonbinary but you're cast as a witch. That witch is probably going to look how witches always typically look. 

 

This is an interesting topic but I'm late for work so I'll just leave it at that!

[Just Somebody]

There's a big feud between the binary and non-binary Transgender people because non-binary people usually challenge more people's understandings, expectations and conceptions on gender even if they look binary or cisgender.

 

 

A lot of binary Transgender people are discouraged to do so too even if they enjoy it to be more gender non-conforming, because they wish to be easily recognized as part of the gender identity sociocultural group or category they identify with or as cisgender.

Many binary Transgender people feels sad because they can't  achieve that easy cisgender life where they are treated as people and not as "other" so they may not understand why non-binary people want to free themselves from it. 

 

 

I see that the majority of binary Transgender people comfortable enough to challenge the conceptions, stereotypes and understandings on gender are people who transitioned more than just socially and are recognized as part of the sociocultural group or category of gender they identify with.

 

[Lonemathsytoothbrushthief]

2 hours ago, Just Somebody said:

There's a big feud between the binary and non-binary Transgender people because non-binary people usually challenge more people's understandings, expectations and conceptions on gender even if they look binary or cisgender.

 

 

A lot of binary Transgender people are discouraged to do so too even if they enjoy it to be more gender non-conforming, because they wish to be easily recognized as part of the gender identity sociocultural group or category they identify with or as cisgender.

Many binary Transgender people feels sad because they can't  achieve that easy cisgender life where they are treated as people and not as "other" so they may not understand why non-binary people want to free themselves from it. 

 

 

I see that the majority of binary Transgender people comfortable enough to challenge the conceptions, stereotypes and understandings on gender are people who transitioned more than just socially and are recognized as part of the sociocultural group or category of gender they identify with.

 

I disagree that non binary people challenge cis people's views more than binary trans people. Look at my parents for example: if I wanted to not be misgendered by my ex father, I needed to live up to a misogynistic masculinity, and if I wanted it from my ex mother, she was more comfortable with me being non binary: "I could see you as in between but never a man". In general there are non binary people who search for scientific studies to prove their existence to cis people, and binary people who confidently state that they are men/women just by saying they are. All sorts of examples, we're stronger together yadayada you see my point I think acceptance is far off enough for all of us that none of us are easily pallatable by society right now.

[Just Somebody]

Just now, Lonemathsytoothbrushthief said:

I disagree that non binary people challenge cis people's views more than binary trans people. Look at my parents for example: if I wanted to not be misgendered by my ex father, I needed to live up to a misogynistic masculinity, and if I wanted it from my ex mother, she was more comfortable with me being non binary: "I could see you as in between but never a man". In general there are non binary people who search for scientific studies to prove their existence to cis people, and binary people who confidently state that they are men/women just by saying they are. All sorts of examples, we're stronger together yadayada you see my point I think acceptance is far off enough for all of us that none of us are easily pallatable by society right now.

Binary Transgender people have an history of having to behave and perform gender roles as according to stereotypical conceptions of gender to grant being taken seriously as human beings by cisgender people, as the trumedicalist binarist perspective of the "trapped in the wrong body" is still popular. There's so much wrong with this we could talk about, like how it equals or ties gender expressions such as stereotypical gender roles to gender identities, reforcing sexist believes already desmystified by sciences.

 

 

 

When you look like and behave like what women are socioculturally supposed to be and do and is addressed in ways socioculturally considered feminine  BUT declare yourself not a woman or part of the sociocultural historical group or category of women, it's already challenging to popular (pre)conceptions and understandings of gender - a woman may perceive you and realize you look and behave exactly like her or experience life In a similar way, but she's a woman and you're not, and then she may question her (pre)conceptions and understandings of gender as she tries to understand what makes her (gender identity) a woman if not her socioculturally considered feminine gender expression.

 

In a more powerful way than expressing yourself looking like or behaving how socioculturally considered masculine and then declaring yourself a man or part of the sociocultural historical group or category of men because of the gender roles and stereotypes of your expression. It just enforces wrongly that gender expressions socioculturally considered masculine = gender identity of men.

 

[Lonemathsytoothbrushthief]

All I can say is, it's just not interesting to me to argue about how much more radical one non truscummy trans person is than another non truscummy trans person. Feminism doesn't inherently make all women more radical politically, and the gender binary doesn't make all non binary people more radical than binary people. Being oppressed however that may be doesn't make us radical, we choose our politics and I can only wish people will in general start exploring more options.

[Calligraphette_Coe]

I guess I live in the grey area vis-a-vis 'conformity'. If 'androgynous' were a 'conforming' gender, that's where I'd be. But when you're only considering cookie cutter gendering, I guess I'd be non-conforming in search of being binarily woman-gendered. I haven't really crosslived at all for a looooong time because it would be my job. I have a history, that even if I passed perfectly, I can't erase in the minds of the people that employ me.

 

My plan was always to transition to being 'conforming' via stealth. I was told I'd have no trouble pulling that off with the looks and the biological idiosyncrasies with which I was gifted. No Adam's Apple, relatively short at 5'7", bubble butt, round baby face with long blonde hair to the middle of my back. 

 

So am I gender non-conforming? Would I be gender conforming if I were stealth and lived a secluded life like Emily Dickinson? The most I think I can say is that I don't fit in, but I don't stand waaaaaay out, either-- the now proverbial glass closet. It never feels great, but at least it prevents me from getting beaten up ( as has happened early in my life). 

[Janus the Fox]

I like to think that many Trans wish to conform in their own internal gender once that gender difference is realized.  I don't plan to conform considering I lack much of any gender internally.  What's further nonconforming is that I'd plan to transition and still have a mixed gender expression as more of a female.  I'm already nonconforming with women's branded clothing which isn't heavily feminine on my male body.

[PoeciMeta]

What I find cool with not having a gender is having nothing to conform to, but that's just my personal situation~

 

I've wondered in the past if gender norms are what gender is about, and I came to the conclusion they weren't. Since then I took a dislike to them, seeing them used to invalidate gnc trans people. Really, why do clothes or hobbies have to be gendered? If those norms weren't so important, things would be easier for many people. 

But then I can also see how they can be precious for others, in particular how conforming to them helps some trans people to pass - be it only at the beginning of a hypothetical transition where they still look like their AGAB... 

Then looking a certain way comes with many 'should's... (which is part of why I want to look like neither, people can't reproach me for not conforming if they can't tell my gender to begin with). I just hope those norms will become less strict, because many of them don't even make sense. With some luck, we might even clear the confusion between trans and gnc. 

[ElasticPlanet]

12 hours ago, PoeciMeta said:

What I find cool with not having a gender is having nothing to conform to, but that's just my personal situation

That's true... but the problem is, I do have an assigned (mis)gender that I need to escape from. For my entire existence until about 4 years ago I thought gender conformity was solely a matter of personal safety and avoiding ridicule for all humans, and I was waiting for that stupidity to just evaporate. Now I realise that most people do actually have binary-ish feelings to express, it's not quite so stupid and it's way more complicated!

 

12 hours ago, PoeciMeta said:

why do clothes or hobbies have to be gendered ... But then I can also see how they can be precious for others

I've been struggling with this lot too. I'm a bit femme, but I'm not female, and every rando idiot still thinks I'm male. WTF?

[Lonemathsytoothbrushthief]

On 1/5/2020 at 10:39 PM, Calligraphette_Coe said:

I guess I live in the grey area vis-a-vis 'conformity'. If 'androgynous' were a 'conforming' gender, that's where I'd be. But when you're only considering cookie cutter gendering, I guess I'd be non-conforming in search of being binarily woman-gendered. I haven't really crosslived at all for a looooong time because it would be my job. I have a history, that even if I passed perfectly, I can't erase in the minds of the people that employ me.

 

My plan was always to transition to being 'conforming' via stealth. I was told I'd have no trouble pulling that off with the looks and the biological idiosyncrasies with which I was gifted. No Adam's Apple, relatively short at 5'7", bubble butt, round baby face with long blonde hair to the middle of my back. 

 

So am I gender non-conforming? Would I be gender conforming if I were stealth and lived a secluded life like Emily Dickinson? The most I think I can say is that I don't fit in, but I don't stand waaaaaay out, either-- the now proverbial glass closet. It never feels great, but at least it prevents me from getting beaten up ( as has happened early in my life). 

I somewhat relate, since I and my friends feel that I "pass" but I also have to avoid my department and strangers misgender me as female most of the time. It's always difficult though, because I know technically speaking some sort of transition is within my reach...it's just going to take a good decade and involve four years' waiting. It's not the same as yours.

I feel like I wouldn't be conforming if I passed as male, and was able to identify as such without pushback. I mean, I'm fluid and still have dresses and skirts I like, but also feel dysphoric about the physical side of it particularly so wouldn't really wear stuff that doesn't make me feel good about the changes I've made with my upper body. Tbh without going on any hormone therapies, I kind of feel like both men's and women's sections have the potential to aggravate dysphoria as much as alleviate it. They're never a perfect fit, and if they emphasise hips, waist, chest etc I'm not going to feel good, regardless of how they're labelled. And I don't really hear the views of that many trans people who are stuck without treatment once they come out and identify the things they're dysphoric about with their body, I wonder if I had a better situation and parents who paid for private treatment whether I'd still own any of my women's clothes, since after all the men's would just help highlight all the changes in my body on T rather than disappointing me with slow progress.

Sorry if this isn't relatable.

[PoeciMeta]

15 minutes ago, Lonemathsytoothbrushthief said:

They're never a perfect fit, and if they emphasise hips, waist, chest etc I'm not going to feel good, regardless of how they're labelled.

Exactly. I have men's trousers that are too wide for me and emphasize my hips; I wear them anyway but I don't like how it looks. 

I also have women's trousers that look way better with layering above the hips, so they make me feel better than I'd expect. 

[Starbogen]

Yeah I'm gendernonconforming and for me that basically just means that I don't care about gender roles at all in theory or practice, but physically I do conform to a typical masculine presentation. I think I do prefer it for the most part but part of it is also because if I didn't then I wouldn't fully pass. 

I don't mind being told to "man up" or that "you should be more like this or that cause that's the manly thing to do" in a social sense, because in that context I'm being seen as a guy who doesn't strictly conform to gender norms, which is accurate. But if I were to experiment a bit more with my presentation like I wish I could sometimes then I would look too androgynous to pass as male and that's not what I want. 

 

And yeah it sucks that trans people are held to a sort of higher standard of gender conforming than cis people would be but at the same time I can kinda understand the logic behind it, shitty as it may be, and I think that kind of mindset is applied more to trans people who have recently come out or haven't transitioned yet, but once people see that no this isn't a phase or confusion and it's just how you are then they get used to it and back off. So I imagine it must be particularly hard for nonconforming nb people and binary people who don't want to medically transition.

 

I wish I could wear whatever, just to play around with my look, and still pass completely as male. But also, then there's the matter of what if I did? Like if I wore eyeliner and a skirt now I would probably look either androgynous enough to confuse people a lot or like a very weird "girl", but either way I feel like no one would say anything or have very strong objections because they wouldn't be exactly sure what I was or what the "correct" presentation should be or how much I was breaking it. But if I did the same and still passed as male then idk, that's a different story. People have a lot less tolerance for men wearing something usually considered just for women than they do for women or androgynous people wearing masculine stuff, so yeah I might be a bit nervous of trying that kind of thing in public even when it becomes possible.

 

 

[Lonemathsytoothbrushthief]

4 hours ago, Starbogen said:

I wish I could wear whatever, just to play around with my look, and still pass completely as male. But also, then there's the matter of what if I did? Like if I wore eyeliner and a skirt now I would probably look either androgynous enough to confuse people a lot or like a very weird "girl", but either way I feel like no one would say anything or have very strong objections because they wouldn't be exactly sure what I was or what the "correct" presentation should be or how much I was breaking it. But if I did the same and still passed as male then idk, that's a different story. People have a lot less tolerance for men wearing something usually considered just for women than they do for women or androgynous people wearing masculine stuff, so yeah I might be a bit nervous of trying that kind of thing in public even when it becomes possible.

I wear some things because in my head I basically pass though people misgender me and I'm not that out , and just kinda wish afab people wouldn't be that nervous about it tbh.Because honestly I only like exploring femininity if I also pass as male.

Spoiler

I genuinely don't have the best pictures...but the irony in these photos is that I'm usually more dysphoric about girl clothes, but tbh the men's trousers in the second photo emphasise my hips too much and the shirt didn't fit as well back then either, which essentially meant I was getting dysphoric while trying to pass.

 

[PoeciMeta]

@Lonemathsytoothbrushthief

Dysphoria can feel worse when trying, and failing, to pass, than when not trying at all.