me too?

[Anthracite_Impreza]

I think the scariest sexualised harassment I had was by a guy from Network Rail. I was trainspotting, just wanted to park Blitz on the verge where their van was, so I asked if I could. They asked what I was doing (rather brusquely, but I thought maybe they thought I was contemplating suicide or even thievery), so I told them I was trainspotting. We got talking and I corrected them on my gender (for I'm trans-male) and that's where it went downhill. This guy starts asking all sorts of intrusive and offensive questions (including about my "bits" and sex) but there were about 5 of them and 1 of me so I was nervous already; I just kept replying in a very short manner and trying to return the convo to trains or cars. He wasn't having it, even asked for a selfie with me ("I've never met a transsexual before"), then when he found out binders were a thing said the words "I guess we'll have to have a look at that won't we?". That's where I drew the line; I'd already seen my train so I basically laughed it off and sped off in Blitz.

 

I was so shaken and felt like not only did this guy not accept my actual gender, but I was a fetish to him and nothing more. I still get upset by it to this day and won't leave my car for trainspotting if anyone's around any more, just in case. It really did hurt and I was very scared by the whole thing.

[thyristor]

I mentioned way above that I had some more to share, Here's the next testimony:

 

When I was 14 my mum told me that this year we wouldn't have to money to make it to Sweden on vacation. One evening, when we've had a row, I'd take her collection of (ordinary) coins and stole away to the station to get a ticket to Sweden. Munich Central Station, the night train would depart at about 10 or 11 pm, can't remember. On an escalator, an middle aged to elder man asked me, where I'm headed. I (probably proudly) told him, and he continued asking whether I'd need a bit of extra cash on the journey. I'm pretty sure I didn't understand it right on the spot, so maybe I asked about what he meant. He wanted me to follow him home, I said no, he told me, he'd only touch me, nothing more. I still said no, and that I didn't need any more money, he accepted it and went away. Ooooh, baby, baby, it's a wild world.....

[thyristor]

21 minutes ago, Anthracite_Impreza said:

 sped off in Blitz.

Good thing Blitz was by your side! I thought of a cake I once made. Ok, cookiebuild...

Spoiler

https://www.dropbox.com/s/nykzb29py5xbdb4/x-mas2008.png?dl=0

 

[Anthracite_Impreza]

9 minutes ago, elisabeth_II said:

Good thing Blitz was by your side! I thought of a cake I once made. Ok, cookiebuild...

  Reveal hidden contents

https://www.dropbox.com/s/nykzb29py5xbdb4/x-mas2008.png?dl=0

 

That is beautiful omg ❤️ 

[confusedbat]

I've had a few incidents of guys touching me when I didn't want him to. I have also been inappropriately touched by a family member which still haunts me. But above all my main daily struggle is with guys calling me ugly (and some women/girls) almost everyday. I'm disgusted with how it seems so many guys are offended by my appearance like as if me not meeting their expectations of the perfect female (does not exist) was like something I owed them and now have to be punished. It kind of makes me laugh. I am not sure if guys calling me ugly all the time counts as me too, but maybe it does count as they are unwarranted comments on my body. 

I am sorry for the traumatic stuff you've been through. Thank you for creating this place where we can vent about this stuff.

[Phantasmal Fingers]

We aces are a tiny minority - the roughly 1% living in a highly sexualised world - and though it's frustrating and at times annoying, in some sense at least, it's always going to be their world - the sexuals' world. This can be awkward, not just annoying. Their discourse is often implicit and completely opaque to us when we first encounter it. "Come up for a coffee?", and "Can I have your number?", for example, are expressions that I at first assumed merely to be literal and involve only coffee and phone numbers rather than sex. How odd and disappointing and weird to discover otherwise! Sexuals often come across to me as having a hidden agenda, i.e. sex. But to each other, presumably, everything is clear and unhidden and visible and easy to read. Education and visibility are important but cut both ways, I think. We aces still need more visibility, and they need to educate themselves - at least a little bit - about us but, by the same token, we also need to educate ourselves about sexuals' discourse and the assumptions behind it, otherwise we can get into serious trouble.

 

To that end, I've had a look around the 'nether regions' of the internet, as one might say - pornography, in other words. I also spent more than one evening looking around the red light district in Amsterdam when I lived in the Netherlands. I spent an evening drinking in bars there just earwigging peoples' conversations, for example, about what they'd done and the live shows they'd seen and what they thought about them - all for 'social-anthropological' reasons, you understand. 😉 But seriously, if we're living in a sexual world we'd better learn how to navigate our way through it. And in my case there were things I have learned that - I am sure - I would not just automatically have picked up on, unlike the average sexual would've done, I imagine.

 

On ‎12‎/‎18‎/‎2019 at 9:37 PM, Anthracite_Impreza said:

I think the scariest sexualised harassment I had was by a guy from Network Rail. I was trainspotting, just wanted to park Blitz on the verge where their van was, so I asked if I could. They asked what I was doing (rather brusquely, but I thought maybe they thought I was contemplating suicide or even thievery), so I told them I was trainspotting. We got talking and I corrected them on my gender (for I'm trans-male) and that's where it went downhill. This guy starts asking all sorts of intrusive and offensive questions (including about my "bits" and sex) but there were about 5 of them and 1 of me so I was nervous already

Here's how I 'read' the above situation if I try to put myself into what I think the Network Rail guy's mindset was...

 

Spoiler

A young (and at least for that reason) attractive female (bodied person) pulls up in a powerful BMW. She comes across as financially independent, drives a better car than he does, and quite possibly - in addition - as knowing just as much about cars, trains, engines etc as he does. Is she taking the piss?! Is she a threat? She can't be, she's a girl, after all! But is she trying (and succeeding?!) to be a man as well? At this point ambiguity could be either enticing or threatening. Or both! Why is she here? Is she really trainspotting? Or is the comment about trainspotting just an excuse to start the real conversation? Then she suddenly claims to be he! WTF! This is impossible! She must be a woman as she has a female body! Unless... unless s(he) is what is know in porn as a 'she-male', i.e. with both male and female genitalia.

 

All this takes place in the theatre of Network Rail guy's mind. Network Rail guy is a not very well educated working class male heterosexual (who might be also be a repressed bisexual) who probably reads a red top tabloid newspaper, maybe has a wife/girlfriend (but perhaps sometimes represses fantasies about boys/men) and almost certainly uses pornography, some of which he tells himself is looked at 'just out of curiosity', hence those 'other' fantasies he would never want to act on. In Network Rail guy's world/mind what I know as an FtM trans person is completely unknown and does not exist. But there are transsexuals or trannies, and - obviously - the she-male type make their living as prostitutes/porn stars, sometimes appearing in the sort of live shows you can overhear people talking about if you visit the red light district in Amsterdam. She-males are looking for sex all the time - it's their obsession and their livelihood and their raison d'etre Network Rail guy knows all this. It's the way things are. Fact. Hence when "she" tells him that "she" is (also) a "he" this is obviously a come on from a she-male. In a similar situation a heterosexual man walks up to a heterosexual woman - in a certain type of bar - and reminds her, in a coded way, that he is male and thus, if she has the inclination he most certainly has the time... But in this case the 'certain type of bar' isn't necessary. The interaction is the context. Because "she" pulled up, "she" started the conversation, "she" announced "she" was also "he"  therefore she-he is either a prostitute, a porn star or both, and "she" made the come on. It's a series of green lights all the way for Network Rail guy! So it's obvious what should happen next...

 

Be careful out there... 🤨

[Anthracite_Impreza]

25 minutes ago, Arodash said:

Because of what I experienced I always feel the need to keep most of my skin covered, I wear trousers no matter what time of the year, I always wear a T-shirt AND a button up shirt all year round because otherwise I feel, exposed? Unsafe? Does anyone else feel like that after? Idk I'm assuming my experiences are probably a different than others here

I will sometimes wear shorts but it has to be roasting hot; otherwise I keep myself covered. All my clothes are baggy AF and I'm currently wearing two jumpers (mostly cos it's cold, but still).

 

@Moderne Jazzhanden Thinking of it that way just makes me feel even more disgusted and sick.

[Phantasmal Fingers]

1 minute ago, Anthracite_Impreza said:

 

@Moderne Jazzhanden Thinking of it that way just makes me feel even more disgusted and sick.

I actually felt very depressed walking up the Reeperbahn in Hamburg. I only made it about 300 yards before I ducked out onto a side street. I immediately felt perfectly okay again. 🙂 I knew I would even when I was walking up it.

 

Ironically I was staying in a hotel nearby because I was attending some teachings by The Dalai Lama! 😭 Still, there is another world out there and sometimes it's necessary to try and get your head around it. You don't have to internalise it though, but I agree it can be tricky not doing so.

[Anthracite_Impreza]

8 minutes ago, Moderne Jazzhanden said:

Still, there is another world out there and sometimes it's necessary to try and get your head around it.

I'm autistic, it's nigh on impossible for me to get my head around humans.

 

8 minutes ago, Arodash said:

Im a firefighter its never too hot for me, and in regards to cold.... I live in a state that spends 9 months in winter I was just wondering if im the only one who feels unsafe with exposed skin

As a steam fireman I should be good with heat, and I am, on a loco. Sun-heat is a different matter entirely though.

 

I'm certainly not as comfortable being exposed, but not so much I'll wear long sleeves. That's for autism-sensitivity reasons though, can't stand sleeves on shirts.

[Anthracite_Impreza]

Just now, Arodash said:

I roll my sleeves up because I too hate sleeves. What do you work on? Industrial boiler or train. Please say train. 

Train, of course

[Phantasmal Fingers]

2 minutes ago, Anthracite_Impreza said:

I'm autistic, it's nigh on impossible for me to get my head around humans.

I'm human, it's nigh on impossible for me to get my head around the autistic.

 

I tried reversing your statement but it doesn't quite match my attitude. So I had to amend it. Maybe that's because I'm an optimist? 🙂

[Whore*of*Mensa]

9 hours ago, Arodash said:

Because of what I experienced I always feel the need to keep most of my skin covered, I wear trousers no matter what time of the year, I always wear a T-shirt AND a button up shirt all year round because otherwise I feel, exposed? Unsafe? Does anyone else feel like that after? Idk I'm assuming my experiences are probably a different than others here

@Arodash I’m so sorry for what happened to you and for those horrible ignorant things that people have said to you.

 

A few years back I found a comic that explained all of this, written by a psychotherapist. I’ll try to post a link if I can find it. Basically it showed that  when something like this happens it disturbs everyone’s sense of safety and security (yours most of all, but other people feel this too). If these things can happen then the world is not safe;  nobody is safe. Nobody wants to think that it could happen to them, too.

 

So everyone tries to pinpoint a cause because if you can find the cause then you can prevent it happening again. Nobody wants to  believe that there are predators everywhere, so they focus on the victim instead- what they were wearing, doing, saying. 

 

This works for the victim too. If you were the cause of the assault, then you can stop it happening again. Even though this makes you feel horrible about yourself it gives you some sense of control. 

 

I know what you mean about feeling exposed. I think it might be a normal reaction. Having something like this happen has a fundamental effect on your sense of safety and because the world likes to focus on our dress we feel as if covering up can make us blameless if we ever get attacked again.

[Whore*of*Mensa]

One thing you notice about all me too stories is that there is an imbalance of power. There’s a huge age difference and/or the perpetrator is in a position of power over the victim - their role is parent/teacher/manager/employer/many against one.

 

That’s what finally convinced me it’s not about misunderstandings, or the victim not being clear enough. The perpetrator knows exactly what they’re doing. They do it because they can.

 

It’s about power.

 

We have to call it out, that’s the point.

[Whore*of*Mensa]

@Arodash I’ve deleted my response because I just can’t talk publicly about this, even by mentioning it I feel as if people are questioning/ judging me. Whether they are or not.

 

If you want to pm me any time, to talk about anything, I’m always here to listen. I know what it’s like when people question you and disbelieve you. 

[thyristor]

22 hours ago, Moderne Jazzhanden said:

Here's how I 'read' the above situation if I try to put myself into what I think the Network Rail guy's mindset was...

I'm not sure if this thread should be about explicitly wording out the culprit's mind. I'd rather you cover that in a spoiler, if you don't mind.

 

22 hours ago, Moderne Jazzhanden said:

Be careful out there... 🤨

Thanks for your thoughts  

[Phantasmal Fingers]

8 minutes ago, elisabeth_II said:

I'd rather you cover that in a spoiler, if you don't mind.

 

Voila! 🙂

[thyristor]

1 minute ago, Moderne Jazzhanden said:

Voila! 🙂

Thank you!!

 

[thyristor]

On 12/18/2019 at 11:44 PM, confusedbat said:

I have also been inappropriately touched by a family member which still haunts me. 

Me too!!

 

I don't drink, but sometimes I try beer when it's a brewery that I haven't heard of before; it's a habit I have, just as an hommage to my area of childhood (Bavaria), and I rarely drink more than a few nips. Anyway that evening I made a bet that I could drink half a liter in one go, which I "could" and which immediately foamed up from my stomach and out through my mouth into the sink ^^ but afterwards that familymember said I'd need a Schnaps or two to calm down my stomach, so there I was, drunk, when he offered to massage me. It was kind of inappropriate already on my upper body (front), but when he made his way a bit too far down (still front) I stopped him and went to sleep. Since I stopped him, I could never really decide for myself what I really could accuse him of. Why would anyone need a massage in that area?

 

Quote

I am not sure if guys calling me ugly all the time counts as me too, but maybe it does count as they are unwarranted comments on my body. 

I am sorry for the traumatic stuff you've been through. Thank you for creating this place where we can vent about this stuff.

Hmm, I was mostly young and naive. I don't feel very traumatized about it, thank god. But I guess some of the people who posted in this thread do. Let's all have cake. 🍰

[thyristor]

7 minutes ago, Arodash said:

 I NEED to be facing the door when I sleep or else I dont feel secure enough to sleep

It's half past midnight here, I've been (trying to) comforting AVENites all evening, and sometimes I just don't know what to say. I feel truely lucky and greatful and hope to be passing a lot more of my easy spirit to those of you who might need a little push towards the sun.

 

It's starting to get a cliché, but I whish you enjoy it as if it was your first one:

Spoiler

 

[thyristor]

1 minute ago, Arodash said:

we also have your back as AVENites

I know! You bet I know.... Good night!

[Whore*of*Mensa]

Me too is always going to be a tricky subject...It's really about people who have been traumatised but unable to speak, and that's really the point of it..

[thyristor]

10 hours ago, More*of*Wenceslas said:

Me too is always going to be a tricky subject...It's really about people who have been traumatised but unable to speak, and that's really the point of it..

First of all: This thread absolutely welcomes those people to speak out. But second, I just like to clarify that the actual problem I myself have, and the problem that caused me to start this thread, is that certain situations leave you not so much traumatized but rather wondering WHETHER you were close to becoming a victim of a me too-situation. That's why I put the questionmark in the title.

 

One should be able to point out a perpetrator as such. But since those accusations are heavy on people and would be devastating if they were wrong, it's not easy to even convince yourself that you have a victim's status and a victim's right to word out an accusation.

 

In the case with my relative giving me a massage, what if they really just wanted to make me feel good and if they never intended to go much lower towards my genitals even if I hadn't stopped them? Can I just accuse them of trying to touch my genitals? And even though the massage was not something I asked for, people are so different in what they percieve as normal and not meaning anything special, as seen in the thread about how people's clothing affects passers-by: if a barechested male walks up to me and asks for directions, it would be a matter of judging the way he looks at me or the distance in centimeters that he keeps from me, in order to switch in my mind from just "ewww...yack" to "uh, is this guy using me for getting himself horny?".

 

The distance-limits I have might not be the same as the barechested male's distance-limits. He may mean nothing by it and be totally innocent, so how could I have the right to call him a me-too'er? But here is the thread where you can vent it and get reassurance from other's that that person actually sounds creepy not only to you; it's not you who needs to adjust limits, it's them who needs to learn and adjust their limits in case they'd feel falsely accused of being a perpetrator.

 

But once again, even those cases where there is no doubt that something creepy was intended, you are very welcome to talk it through here.

[Whore*of*Mensa]

Ah I see...

 

Yes the whole topic is hugely triggering for me and my mood can’t take it right now. 

 

But I understand what your intention is, I’m sure it will be an interesting discussion.

 

My advice, from much bitter experience, is: if you feel uncomfortable it’s nearly always for a reason. Trust your gut instincts. You don’t have to accuse anyone of anything to move away from them. If they don’t allow you to move away, ignore or disengage from them that’s when you have a problem.

 

 

[Whore*of*Mensa]

2 hours ago, Arodash said:

Agreed, if your instincts say end it. Do what you can to

And be aware you’re going to get blamed whatever happens - whether you said something too early and offended someone, or left it too late and got assaulted. 

 

Oh and if you don’t report it you’re responsible for it happening to others.

 

The victim blaming started on page 1 of this thread, it shows what we are still up against in this culture

[Whore*of*Mensa]

I spent about 5 years of my life massively traumatised and putting my health and safety constantly at risk because I just didn’t care what happened to me at times. My sense of safety and security was totally messed up - I could have a panic attach at the slightest thing. Every single situation felt threatening and dangerous. I was on high alert at all times, whatever was going on.

 

During this time I decided to go back packing through Israel on my own for 3 months. No idea why. I was 22.

 

I learnt a lot about different types of men there, the whole spectrum of behaviour. I learned that if you sit alone on a beach many men will approach you as they feel concerned that you might be lonely.

 

i learned that to some men you can say ‘I’m sorry but you’re making me feel really uncomfortable. Please can you go away,’ and they will go away and not come back, without a hint of annoyance. With kindness, even. And some will tell you that your feelings are wrong, they’re not a risk, they’ll continue to force you to spend time with them because they don’t care whether you’re enjoying that or not.

 

People that respect boundaries don’t get offended. People that don’t respect boundaries, will try to make you reset them to suit their needs.

 

Your boundaries are your boundaries. You owe nothing to strangers who approach you.

[thyristor]

Wow, notifications must have not worked propperly on dec 20, I totally missed the last few comments until now that I'm managing my followed content.

 

On 12/20/2019 at 2:56 PM, Whore*of*Mensa said:

The victim blaming started on page 1 of this thread

Exactly. Can I confess that I blame myself in a lot of those cases? That is why it has to come out here so that people can learn that their judgement or gut feeling or boundary is not a fault of theirs.

 

On 12/20/2019 at 3:27 PM, Whore*of*Mensa said:

they will go away and not come back, without a hint of annoyance. With kindness, even. And some will tell you that your feelings are wrong, they’re not a risk, they’ll continue to force you to spend time with them because they don’t care whether you’re enjoying that or not.

 

People that respect boundaries don’t get offended. People that don’t respect boundaries, will try to make you reset them to suit their needs.

 

Your boundaries are your boundaries. You owe nothing to strangers who approach you.

These were very clarifying and enlightening words. Thank you. Actually, that last line... so correct and so very helpful to keep in mind.

 

 

[thyristor]

On 12/18/2019 at 10:37 PM, thyristor said:

When I was 14 my mum told me that this year we wouldn't have to money to make it to Sweden on vacation. One evening, when we've had a row, I'd take her collection of (ordinary) coins and stole away to the station to get a ticket to Sweden. Munich Central Station, the night train would depart at about 10 or 11 pm, can't remember. On an escalator, an middle aged to elder man asked me, where I'm headed. I (probably proudly) told him, and he continued asking whether I'd need a bit of extra cash on the journey. I'm pretty sure I didn't understand it right on the spot, so maybe I asked about what he meant. He wanted me to follow him home, I said no, he told me, he'd only touch me, nothing more. I still said no, and that I didn't need any more money, he accepted it and went away. Ooooh, baby, baby, it's a wild world.....

Well, that same evening actually I had one more strange encounter. Some of the trains come to the platform quite a while before departure. I can't remember how I started talking to this guy, who was maybe in his early or mid twenties. We sat down in a compartment in one of the trains that were in and talked. He told me he was going to be a gym instructor and everybody wants a "V-body" right now. I had no idea what a V-body was and obviously he wanted to explain it to me with his hands on MY body. I might have looked older than 14, but still, strangers at a station in a random train, you just shouldn't expect a girl/woman or any person for that matter to be comfortable with your hands on their body. Fullstop.

[thyristor]

Also, age 14, friends of my mum's were on some holiday and they had asked my mum to stay the night at their house to watch it. I somehow managed to persuaded my mum to allow me to stay alone at OUR house. So, that was my first night alone at home. I was looking forward to it, and it wouldn't have bben any problem.

 

Another friend of my mum's called and wanted to invite her to a night at the Oktoberfest (this was in Munich). People who live in Munich usually get beer coupons from work and the company would book a table for the department; it's hard to go out as a group otherwise, since it's so crowded. Anyway, this friend was a single dad, his kid was not with him that day. I told him, mum's not even at home, but he said that I could come along without my mum. I couldn't see much wrong in going to the Oktoberfest with a person that both I and my mum knows, so I went along actually. He offered that I stay the night at his house afterwards, "in case I'd be scared at home", but I told him, I'm not interested, not scared and in fact looking forward to being alone.

 

Before we entered the beertent to meet his collegues, he asked me if it was okay that he presents me as his daughter; he said he wanted to trick his collegues. Still ok with me. He bought me a beer (yup, the come in one liter jars and, yup, I was still 14). I think I drank about half of it maybe. He gave me some money and said I could go out and ride some carousel; I can't remember whether I even went out, if I did, I didn't ride any, cos I had the money left in my pocket, it was 10 Mark (about 5€). Anyway, if I remember correctly I counted him drinking four beers before it was time for us to leave the tent.

 

We'd stroll the festival for a while, he'd treat me some rollercoaster ride (he wouldn't ride). Then he had to go pee. Ok, so, the Oktoberfest is huge.  H  U  G  E .  The only way to manage bathrooms is to make them one-way: one door to walk in, another door at the other side of the building to walk out. We didn't think of that, I said I'd stay here and wait for him. So I did. He never came back. I understood that he left the building through another door and couldn't find me, since he was slightly drunk.

 

After 45 minutes of waiting I just went home. I knew the public transport, no big problem. In my suburb I took a taxi from the commuter station to my house for the money he had given me. I had just come home when he called me, he had also just come home, he thought I had ran off with some Swedish people (at the time I was crazy about Sweden and talked to Swedish looking people to get penpals; I wouldn't run off with anyone though if I had said: I'll wait right here. 🤷‍♀️) Anyways, he repeatedly asked me whether I rather wanted to stay at his house. We could watch some movies, he said. Well, duh... that was in the middle of the night, and I still wasn't interested.

 

Highly inappropriate behaviour for a 45-50 year old guy towards a teenager....