Fed Up

[Whore*of*Mensa]

Guys, I'm glad you have come to your own laundry arrangements, I'm happy for you. I'm happy for me too because I am no longer in charge of all household chores. I might add this to the things-that-make-you-happy-about-being-single thread. 

 

In fact, when I was younger I did always say I never wanted to get married and the reason I gave was 

'I don't want to have to iron anyone's shirts' 

 

😅 

I stick by that. 

[ryn2]

38 minutes ago, Serran said:

How you accept help matters in how much help you get.

There definitely is some truth to this... my former therapist always pointed out that, if you want someone’s assistance with things, you are accepting that their way is good enough.  If it has to be done your way, or on your schedule, you need to do it.

 

Obviously that doesn’t pair well with someone who actually is lazy and willfully unhelpful, though.  It’s also hard on someone who gets anxious about undone chores, although I suspect my former therapist would say that’s the anxious person’s problem.

[Whore*of*Mensa]

This is the most ridiculous conversation I’ve ever had, it’s 1950s stuff...Women do all men’s chores and men offer to ‘help’???

 

It’s 2019??

Or am I dreaming?

[Philip027]

It's almost like all men and all women don't actually all fit into each of their own neat and tidy little gender role boxes.

[Sally]

When two people who live together are in a committed relationship -- either married or not -- they are sharing a home with tasks that must be done.  Since they aren't just roommates, those tasks should be shared by them.  That means neither partner is "helping" the other partner with those tasks, and neither partner has to ask the other for "help".  They should get together and decide who does what.  

[Whore*of*Mensa]

@Philip027No well I don’t that’s whats caused most of my problems 

 

I don’t do other people’s chores, and I don’t like sex, I’m not really a proper woman at all..

[ryn2]

1 hour ago, More*of*Wenceslas said:

I'm happy for me too because I am no longer in charge of all household chores.

I’m envious because, while I *do* do less laundry now that I’m single, my net chore load has if anything gone up in terms of both time commitment and difficulty,

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Sally said:

When two people who live together are in a committed relationship -- either married or not -- they are sharing a home with tasks that must be done.  Since they aren't just roommates, those tasks should be shared by them.  That means neither partner is "helping" the other partner with those tasks, and neither partner has to ask the other for "help".  They should get together and decide who does what.  

Or when you live with someone ( be it partner, friend, room mate, kid, etc) then you all help each other out with chores that need done. If my mom is building something I think is stupid to add to the house, I can help her. If my wife is struggling to get the pizza out of the oven because her hands are sensitive to heat, I can help her. If I dont want to touch a tree frog cause ew, my wife helps. Etc etc. Its not like you get together and make a strict you do this I do that list and that's it (well, I guess some do, but I would hate that). Living with someone is helping them out with day to day living. And they help you. And if you are a control freak like some (my ex, my aunt, me with the dishes and water use...) then it's going to be hard to tell the person they should be doing something you won't just let them do without controlling it. Which, is Philip's point. Some people make helping out around the house impossible since they have to control every little thing rather than just saying thank you for doing the laundry/dishes/whatever today. 

 

1 hour ago, More*of*Wenceslas said:

This is the most ridiculous conversation I’ve ever had, it’s 1950s stuff...Women do all men’s chores and men offer to ‘help’???

 

It’s 2019??

Or am I dreaming?

Given I am a woman talking about my wife... and mentioned my wife's dad was the laundry doer... I dont get how you're coming up with women do the chores. Philip's point was some dont do chores because people won't be happy with just having them done and the need to control is why the "lazy" person won't offer to help do household chores. Gender doesn't really play a role at all. And you're the only one bringing it up. In fact... if I recall right, Philip's partner is masculine rather than feminine? 

[Philip027]

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In fact... if I recall right, Philip's partner is masculine rather than feminine? 

I'm not sure if they would call themselves "masculine" really and I don't think I would either (that term carries some connotations that we both think they don't really embody), but my spouse is trans male, yep.  They're the "breadwinner" and I stay home playing games and attempting to take care of some of the more basic chores that I'm more confident I can do.

 

My partner is way more "chill" about chores than my mom ever was, not nearly the same level of control freakishness; so it's a better/safer environment for me to learn in and has helped me come out of my shell a bit.

[Sally]

3 hours ago, Serran said:

 Its not like you get together and make a strict you do this I do that list and that's it (well, I guess some do, but I would hate that). Living with someone is helping them out with day to day living. And they help you.

What I meant about "help" is that often, someone in a living-together relationships (generally not with parents in the home) say "I help my wife/partner with xyz", as though they are doing their partner a favor.  Instead, the chores should be shared (however the partners want to share/divide them).  

[Whore*of*Mensa]

I think some on this thread understand the point being made and others are just deliberately missing the point. 

 

I live with a 17 year old child who pulls her own weight like an almost grown adult, I pay her to clean the house and she does a fantastic job. 

 

Prior to that I lived with a man who couldn’t be bothered to learn how to operate a washing machine, it’s very common, as is men deliberately doing chores badly in order to get out of doing them. I never said that Philip027 was doing that. Just because he isn’t doesn’t invalidate what I said, and neither does a story about Serran’s uncle.

 

The ironing objection I had actually came from the fact that two of my girlfriends at school had to do the ironing at home, while the men in the house sat around watching TV. One brother used to make fun of his little sister having to iron his shirts.

 

i was never expected to do chores at home hence why I was a little surprised when suddenly expected to be in charge of it all. 

 

You can pretend there isn’t any cultural expectation that women do all the chores if you feel like trying to argue it, but honestly I’m not sure why you’d bother. 

[anisotrophic]

Philip's claim that the comic is alienating because his "spontaneous help" was criticized just reads as a personal reaction used to avoid acknowledging -- even dismiss -- the reality of sexism for many women. The reality is tons of women are asking their spouses, and eventually give up asking again and again. The word is "nagging".

 

The imbalance plays out again and again, to milder and stronger degrees. It hits the fan when people have kids. One person (female) told me a great role of thumb for their household: "if you don't think you're doing 50 percent: you aren't".

 

The fact that some families raise their daughters to do chores and their sons to live into adulthood without learning to do laundry is a sample of the sexist world women are given to live in. Not a justification or dismissal of it.

[Guest]

Philip is having a personal objection to the stereotype that when a man doesn't do the chores, its always because he's lazy and / or sexist and offering another reason which is very valid as to why one may not as he is one of those raised to not do chores by a controlling mother. My wife was raised to not even know how to fill out paperwork or turn the appliances on around the house. Parents coddle and control rather than teach basic living skills in some cases. That doesn't make it a sexist gender role in the scenario Philip is offering as another reason. Parents raise girls, boys, etc that way. I teach a lot of students who can't do anything for themselves because mommy (or daddy) does it all for them. It's a terrible way to parent and does a huge disservice for kids. And is actually really common among special needs kids because teaching them things like cooking or laundry is hard so they just do it for them their whole lives. 

 

And to get so bent out of shape for a person to correct a comics stereotype and insist its sexist talk for Philip to offer an alternative is rather rude. For one, being on the spectrum, stereotype comics will be taken very literal.. meaning more likely to feel personal. For two, all he said was that isn't the case in all situations and he's right. Sometimes it's simply you live with a person that won't let you help. Or makes you feel too bad about yourself to be willing to help by constantly saying how bad you are at what you are doing. 

 

If we offered a common negative stereotype of a woman and someone offered a valid alternative for the behavior because they found the comic personally objectionable I dont think they would be getting yelled at in caps about 1950s thinking. Which isn't exactly fair given he never said his explanation is true in all cases, he just said in his (and I agree because I know others like it), so you can't assume which one it is just from someone not jumping to help with chores. 

 

There are some who hold gender stereotypes who fit the bill. My Uncle who beats his wife would never lift a finger to do laundry cause he's the "man of the house". I dont think Philip would disagree with that being true either (correct me if I am wrong @Philip027 ?). Maybe ask him his opinion on the gender roles if you feel he's dismissing them. 

[ryn2]

I think both things are true - there are still an awful lot of sexist, gendered expectations out there around chores/household labor, *and* that doesn’t mean every household or every individual is behaving in a sexist manner for sexist reasons.

 

At least where I live there are still tons of small ways the traditional, sexist mindset shows up... from references to dads “babysitting” when they are home watching their own kids while the moms are out to how judgments on how a household or its occupants appear are usually laid on the woman (“I can’t believe his wife let him go out looking like that!”).

 

That doesn’t mean *every* household where the woman does laundry and the man mows the lawn is inherently sexist.

[anisotrophic]

I'm not bent out of shape, I'm explaining how Philip's reaction reads.

 

My partner was also raised by a mother that never taught him basic stuff like laundry. It's important men don't use the sexism of their parents as a justification for not doing better. Philip took the comic personally and decided to step in to say it feels unfair. But the comic didn't actually say men are sexist or lazy when they do this.

 

The comic says it's because men aren't raised to do chores by their parents. It explains this. It's unfair to women, to have partners raised without knowing to do chores. It's society that is sexist. This isn't a counterpoint, it's the *point*.

 

The fact men aren't taught to do this is because society is sexist. As a result, if men want a truly balanced contribution at home they would do well to check themselves and not assume they're doing enough. Because they and their partners were raised in sexist ways. That's what it says. It's not saying they're personally lazy or sexist.

[Whore*of*Mensa]

Can’t add anything to what’s been very well expressed above.

 

Sorry for the caps lock if that caused offence, I was a little drunk after a night out. I couldn’t quite manage to take the argument seriously.

[Philip027]

Quote

Philip's claim that the comic is alienating because his "spontaneous help" was criticized just reads as a personal reaction used to avoid acknowledging -- even dismiss -- the reality of sexism for many women. The reality is tons of women are asking their spouses, and eventually give up asking again and again. The word is "nagging".

It's too bad that wasn't at all what the comic was discussing, then.  It seemed to be more about not "nagging" at all and then getting pissed off that the guy somehow isn't a mind reader.

 

The sexism here goes both ways, bub.  You're just so busy feeling personally slighted by the issue that you're only willing to acknowledge the variety that doesn't benefit you.

 

Quote

My partner was also raised by a mother that never taught him basic stuff like laundry. It's important men don't use the sexism of their parents as a justification for not doing better.

The fact men aren't taught to do this is because society is sexist.

That isn't really sexism though, at least not always.  I don't think my mom would have done anything different with me regarding the chores if I happened to be female.  Her beef wasn't that I was male, it was that I wasn't as efficient as her.  And as the comic points out, it's not like females are more genetically wired to do this stuff, so it's not like I would have magically become more proficient at it.

 

I think there's more than one cause for this sort of thing, as I've been trying to say here already.

 

Quote

But the comic didn't actually say men are sexist or lazy when they do this.

Context clues are important.  Did you notice that the comic always depicted the guy as the guilty party?

 

If it were really trying to be as impartial as you seem to be suggesting it was, don't you think it would have made some effort to show that anyone can be guilty of this, not just men?

[Whore*of*Mensa]

Bub?

[Janus the Fox]

Well living with my partner or not, being the whole owner of a home by whichever means , it don’t matter who does what.  All things be done by one person like it or not, sole home ownership it be like that, being the Carer of ailing parents be like that as well.

 

Hey weather I’m wearing girly clothes or not some chores feel natural to do than others.  There’s always some services out there to help if one does need some aid due to disabilities.

 

I wasn’t permitted to do anything at home, never could get the trust of either parent to do anything and a OT report maintaining a critical risk to health confirmed their suspicions.  The difference is now the same homeowner parent has themselves become unable to care for the home they once did previously.  I’m often making up for the time lost not being able to do the chores, well if I feel comfortable doing the chores in a skirt then there be that.

 

I’ll never cut ties that parents though, got to keep them sweet and in their good books if I’m going to need a home to inherit to avoid adult social service protection.  Like Phillip here I too had or could only play games through childhood, parents even then couldn’t take the risk for me to learn chores.

[anisotrophic]

moving this back into a more interesting reflection...
 

Something interesting about the comic is how it connects parenting with mental load. It attributes this to “there’s more chores”, but I think it’s more than that. I think there’s a further connection my spouse and I observed that wasn’t made by the comic.

 

Children keep changing. Parenting isn’t amenable to “routine”; it requires a high level of engagement at the level of awareness of issues as they arise, planning & trying new solutions, and initiating interventions. What worked last month no longer works. What worked for the first kid doesn’t work for the second.

 

That’s far from the routine labor of “do the dishes” and “do the laundry”, and I think that’s part of why things really hit a fan with kids. The routines keep changing, it isn’t nearly as effective to assign someone a “standard task” when the task itself is constantly new.

 

Which meant I wasn’t any more expert than he was; there really wasn’t an excuse for “I wasn’t taught chore X” when nobody taught it to me either — it was invented, or learned via searching the internet for information, or by talking to teachers and caretakers and doctors. It wasn’t fair to expect me to keep learning and him to get some of the assignments.

 

I think recognizing that constant newness helped. He made a doctor’s appointment yesterday & assigned me to go! ✌️ That’s a good balance.

[Whore*of*Mensa]

Yes it’s definitely the having kids that makes a difference, I would say it’s physical, mental and emotional effort - and as you say, nothing like doing the dishes. 

 

Also so just to add, disability as mentioned above is a completely different thing. It’s not about people who genuinely struggle with certain things, it’s about one person avoiding their share of responsibility in a partnership- just because they can.

 

Edit - not to mention, I myself struggle enormously with completing all the tasks needed to run a house and when you add a job and doing someone else’s tasks as well I’m very likely to have a nervous breakdown. It seems unfair that it’s assumed I should be able to manage it all because I’m a woman.