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Dawning

Demi-androgyne

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Dawning

Yep, that's a real term, with flags and everything. Most people are familiar with the term "androgynous"; an androgyne is someone whose gender is both male and female. Yes, it turns out that I do have a little bit of gender, but VERY little, and I was tempted to find a prefix that would mean that… micro-androgyne, lol… but at some point, splitting hairs with the intention of communicating who we are more accurately has the opposite effect, and we end up failing to communicate anything because no one knows what the heck we're talking about. So, my gender has become more complex, but counterintuitively, it's easier for others to understand.

 

There doesn't appear to be a gender symbol for demi-androgyne, so I made one: 

r78jsQekBjhie4DHMf5S4JX_mY0QWASTACfOY8k9

The thing used to designate standard androgynes is smaller and on the inside to indicate how little there is of it; sticking this smaller version on the outside of the circle just made it look like a mistake, like it was put together with no grasp of proportions... and doing what they did for the symbols for demi-boy and demi-girl, cutting off one side of the "arrow" and "mirror," leaves you with something that looks like a key.

 

Am I the only demi-androgyne on here? It seems like almost everyone who has both male and female is genderfluid… and I'm not ruling that out, since part of the problem with not really having direct gender perception is I can't tell if it's changing or not... I explain about my perception issues here here:

 

 

I'd be really interested to hear anyone else's experiences in this area!

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Life Of Tass

Hey @Dawning! While I'm not an androgyne or a demi-androgyne myself, I'm androgynous to the point where a few months back I thought that I should research androgyne identities a bit, just in case. I have to say that the demi-androgyne flag is so beautiful, I love the bright colours contrasted with the grays on either side! For whom it may concern, here's the flag for context:

 

Spoiler

demiandrogyne_by_pride_flags_db4gjbt-pre

 

I remember that there are some androgynes on AVEN, @Veezle comes to mind (sorry if I've tagged you incorrectly, Veezle!)

 

Anyway, I ended up feeling close to the term "nebularian" from the galactian system, which I find is a very practical way to describe my feelings towards gender as an autistic nonbinary person. I'd tried on "eclipsian" and "galaxian" before but they never truly fit, seeing as my masculinity is something of a byproduct of the explicitly non-cishet femininity I'm aligned with. So, I'm agender, but aligned to non-cishet femininity (which is close to androgyny, but not quite it) and gender neutrality. It was quite a journey to figure that out, and I feel like I understand androgynes and other people with androgynous gender identities better now.

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Sarah-Sylvia

When I was first considering being transgender, I'd made up symbol too, if I remember right I wanted to make it half androgynous and half female. I know that it technically already has a female portion in it, but it made sense since I could feel both separately but also together, to some degree. Now that I know about trans-feminine, I think it might just be simpler to use that, but there's something neat about more specific ones too.

I think the idea of being demi-androgyne is nice. Makes sense along the genderless side.
Anyway, some people don't like how many terms there are, but I think it's cool. Even useful.

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timewarp

Personally I prefer microbreweries to microlabels.

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Wondrous Stranger

I've been trying to figure out what to call my gender and have been extremely confused by similar feelings. I never really considered that my gender would impact my identity until recently. I grew up uncomfortable with being seen as feminine (I'm AFAB), but also never felt like I was, on some deeper level, a boy (and never knew there was an in-between). Still, I used to refuse to play games unless I could be a male character, and I love when people see me as one of the guys. I also feel very positive (not sure what emotion exactly, but something good) when I wear men's clothes.

 

I've been researching/experimenting with the terms genderflux, demigender, and gender non-conforming, but I'm definitely going to look in to demi-androgyne as well. Eventually I'll figure it out. Or not. Meh.

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DuranDuranfan

At first I thought I was androgyne, but it didn’t seem to fit because I’d switch or segue between masculine and feminine so that’s why I feel bigender is more accurate for me.

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Dawning
On 12/7/2019 at 2:58 PM, Life Of Tass said:

Hey @Dawning! While I'm not an androgyne or a demi-androgyne myself, I'm androgynous to the point where a few months back I thought that I should research androgyne identities a bit, just in case. I have to say that the demi-androgyne flag is so beautiful, I love the bright colours contrasted with the grays on either side! For whom it may concern, here's the flag for context:

 

  Reveal hidden contents

demiandrogyne_by_pride_flags_db4gjbt-pre

 

I remember that there are some androgynes on AVEN, @Veezle comes to mind (sorry if I've tagged you incorrectly, Veezle!)

 

Anyway, I ended up feeling close to the term "nebularian" from the galactian system, which I find is a very practical way to describe my feelings towards gender as an autistic nonbinary person. I'd tried on "eclipsian" and "galaxian" before but they never truly fit, seeing as my masculinity is something of a byproduct of the explicitly non-cishet femininity I'm aligned with. So, I'm agender, but aligned to non-cishet femininity (which is close to androgyny, but not quite it) and gender neutrality. It was quite a journey to figure that out, and I feel like I understand androgynes and other people with androgynous gender identities better now.

That's a pretty flag, thanks!

 

I think it's excellent that you have your gender figured out in such detail! But, if it takes you a paragraph to tell people what your gender is, and you're using a dozen terms they've never heard of before, you're actually totally failing to communicate with that person, because they'll listen to you and nod politely, but still have no idea what your gender is. It might not be a bad idea to come up with some sort of rough-approximation term to use with people that aren't on this forum so that they have some idea of who you are... that's part of why I've settled on demi-androgyne rather than stringing together some words that might be more microscopically accurate but not make any sense to anyone who isn't us. And keep watching any gender feelings you have with a critical eye; you can be sure you've found your gender, and then find out a year later that it's something different than you thought!

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Sarah-Sylvia

I would rarely if ever go in deeper detail, I feel like that's for me or whoever is really curious about the nuances.

For all intents and purposes, I'll just say I'm transgender, transwoman, or female. Sometimes just saying i'm trans is enough for some people. If I start to talk about any non-binary aspects, I feel like it'll just complicate :P

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Life Of Tass

@Dawning yeah, the case is exactly like @Sarah-Sylvia said. The paragraph's worth of explaining is just for me and if anyone asks for details. For anyone else, I'm gq or agender, no further details needed. For the ones who don't immediately assume I'm a person of my AGAB, at least, which so far have been... about one person. I just thought that my journey through the world of androgyne-like identities (and subsequently, where I ended up) is relevant to this thread, and thought that I should go in greater detail in this case.

 

And yeah, I try to keep an open mind when it comes to my gender and my perception of it, because I know from past experience that it's not exactly static, and it can be confusing to pinpoint. It's very frustrating sometimes. Yesterday I told a friend who's questioning their gender

 

Spoiler

Gender is a fuck and I'm asexual

 

and they loved it.

 

This turned into a bit of a rant for the complexity of gender, sorry!

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Dawning
On 12/7/2019 at 3:11 PM, Sarah-Sylvia said:

When I was first considering being transgender, I'd made up symbol too, if I remember right I wanted to make it half androgynous and half female. I know that it technically already has a female portion in it, but it made sense since I could feel both separately but also together, to some degree. Now that I know about trans-feminine, I think it might just be simpler to use that, but there's something neat about more specific ones too.

I think the idea of being demi-androgyne is nice. Makes sense along the genderless side.
Anyway, some people don't like how many terms there are, but I think it's cool. Even useful.

It's good to really know yourself, and to know exactly what your gender is, but it's also important to have a gender description that people outside of this forum and Tumblr can understand; if we want our genders to gain official recognition some day, we have to accept that the government is never going to have forms with 500 gender choices, so we'll have to agree as a community on a few broad categories that we'll use with the wider world.

 

I agree, it's both cool and useful for non-binary people to have accurate descriptions of our genders for the first time in the history of the human race. I've noticed that lots of people who have non-standard genders themselves, and use labels that didn't even exist a couple of years ago, are amongst the first to criticize labels that they haven't seen before; they have THEiR label, so screw everyone else's desire for a term to accurately describe their own gender. Hopefully, those people will recognize the importance of unity within our community for us to be able to gain acceptance, which would benefit them along with the rest of us.

 

There's nothing new or exotic about demi-androgyne, though; it's the same structure as demi-boy and demi-girl, terms that have been around long enough that they sometimes appear in mainstream media. The word androgyne isn't new at all, and not unique to our community; it has been in use since the 12th century to describe plants and animals with both male and female characteristics… many intersexed people could claim it to describe their physical sex, although I don't think many actually do. The reason we don't see the term very often is that the overwhelming majority of people who are some mixture of male and female are genderfluid, so that's the term we see used all the time.

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anisotrophic

I've not seen any gender description that  really "accurately" matches my experience, and, well, I don't think a lot of terms was ever helpful to me. It was enough to know "male" and "female" weren't the only options. I think it's most helpful to just understand myself -- and it doesn't need to match anyone's description of a flavor of non-binary. I do think non-binariness is a very personal & varied experience. I'm happiest with  broad umbrella terms... NB, trans.

 

So... I appreciate that it's helpful for others, I guess? Personally I find it overly constraining on my experience of gender to try to define so much.

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Sarah-Sylvia

I actually haven't seen a lot of androgynes these days, not sure why. It's basically just feeling both male and female at the same time, or in-between. I would have thought more people felt like both, but I guess non-binary is more popular as a term.

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Dawning
On 12/7/2019 at 4:45 PM, Wondrous Stranger said:

I've been trying to figure out what to call my gender and have been extremely confused by similar feelings. I never really considered that my gender would impact my identity until recently. I grew up uncomfortable with being seen as feminine (I'm AFAB), but also never felt like I was, on some deeper level, a boy (and never knew there was an in-between). Still, I used to refuse to play games unless I could be a male character, and I love when people see me as one of the guys. I also feel very positive (not sure what emotion exactly, but something good) when I wear men's clothes.

 

I've been researching/experimenting with the terms genderflux, demigender, and gender non-conforming, but I'm definitely going to look in to demi-androgyne as well. Eventually I'll figure it out. Or not. Meh.

If you have no connection to femininity, but you do have some connection to masculinity… maybe transmasculine?

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Dawning
On 12/7/2019 at 11:00 PM, DuranDuranfan said:

At first I thought I was androgyne, but it didn’t seem to fit because I’d switch or segue between masculine and feminine so that’s why I feel bigender is more accurate for me.

Do your switches happen more or less at random, or can it be in response to something gendered that you're doing, for example if you're feeling masculine but put on a dress, would you switch to feeling feminine? Because of my inability to perceive feelings directly, I don't know if I'm genderfluid or maybe even bigender, but I'm hoping to find a way to pin it down.

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DuranDuranfan

I think so. 

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Dawning
On 12/15/2019 at 1:37 AM, anisotrophic said:

I've not seen any gender description that  really "accurately" matches my experience, and, well, I don't think a lot of terms was ever helpful to me. It was enough to know "male" and "female" weren't the only options. I think it's most helpful to just understand myself -- and it doesn't need to match anyone's description of a flavor of non-binary. I do think non-binariness is a very personal & varied experience. I'm happiest with  broad umbrella terms... NB, trans.

 

So... I appreciate that it's helpful for others, I guess? Personally I find it overly constraining on my experience of gender to try to define so much.

This might be where a lot of us with more complex gender experiences may need to settle, even if we do find labels that we think are accurate. I think it's a good and healthy thing for us to explore and ponder our gender experiences as part of the overall-beneficial process of knowing ourselves. I think that for many people, it's a great relief to have a term that accurately describes us, but that term shouldn't turn into a straitjacket or a cage. When we're talking to the wider world, we need to figure out how we're going to let people know that we aren't part of the standard binary without giving a speech; if we could overall agree to just say non-binary… I'm a little worried about trans, because in most people's mind that refers to someone who wants to change their body from one half of the binary to the other… and let that represent our gender in casual conversation, and on official paperwork and drivers licenses and such, and then explain in more depth if anybody's actually curious and we feel in the mood to explain... would that work for most people, or would more people prefer to use their accurate gender terms all the time?

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PoeciMeta
On 12/15/2019 at 10:37 AM, anisotrophic said:

I've not seen any gender description that  really "accurately" matches my experience, and, well, I don't think a lot of terms was ever helpful to me. It was enough to know "male" and "female" weren't the only options. I think it's most helpful to just understand myself -- and it doesn't need to match anyone's description of a flavor of non-binary. I do think non-binariness is a very personal & varied experience. I'm happiest with  broad umbrella terms... NB, trans.

 

So... I appreciate that it's helpful for others, I guess? Personally I find it overly constraining on my experience of gender to try to define so much.

Yeah, I agree with that philosophy. I mean, it happens that I found a more specific label that works for me by concluding that gender just isn't for me; but as far as others are concerned, I'm simply not a boy or a girl, unless I'm in the mood to explain~ besides, I need to let myself freedom to explore, I'm young after all. I guess I'm lucky in that way, being happy with a label, so it's not my place to speak, but it shouldn't be mandatory to be specific, while everyone is unique, and non-binary is already quite a thing by itself~

 

Spoiler

(Going off-topic about labels and genderlessness, that state means I'm agender and proud to be so, but at the same time I'm kinda reluctant to label myself, unless it's made clear the label is about what I'm not: not-cis, not-binary, not-gendered. I don't want to tell people what I am. The mischievous part of me wants them to be confused, in fact~ ^^ Sorry if that sounds childish, it kinda goes with social dysphoria and not wanting people to be able to put any gender label on me... or gender me in their mind... what I don't want them to think is that they know what I am because most of them will be thinking in terms of AGAB. Sorry, sorry, rant over~) 

 

1 hour ago, Dawning said:

I'm a little worried about trans, because in most people's mind that refers to someone who wants to change their body from one half of the binary to the other…

I have the same worries. Sadly, this word carries a lot of misconceptions attached to it. The only time I've heard my parents even pronounce it was when stumbling on a drag queen on TV, and the whole thing wasn't very positive. I hope society at large will be able to think of transhood differently one day, but in the meantime I'm reluctant to call myself that (along with the reason in the label rant spoilered above~). 

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Dawning
On 12/15/2019 at 9:57 AM, Sarah-Sylvia said:

I actually haven't seen a lot of androgynes these days, not sure why. It's basically just feeling both male and female at the same time, or in-between. I would have thought more people felt like both, but I guess non-binary is more popular as a term.

Just about everyone who is some sort of mixture of male and female is genderfluid, and identifies as such. I might be genderfluid too, but because I can't directly perceive my feelings, I have no way to tell at this time. Androgyne is a broader term, so technically a genderfluid person who is a mixture of male and female is also an androgyne.

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Sarah-Sylvia
4 hours ago, Dawning said:

Just about everyone who is some sort of mixture of male and female is genderfluid, and identifies as such. I might be genderfluid too, but because I can't directly perceive my feelings, I have no way to tell at this time. Androgyne is a broader term, so technically a genderfluid person who is a mixture of male and female is also an androgyne.

Well genderfluid means shifting between the genders. Someone could be a more static mixture or in-between of male and female, being androgyne. Most people around these things just consider themselves non-binary at first these days tho.

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