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thyristor

Like a stone

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Sithgroundhog
15 minutes ago, elisabeth_II said:

Why is there so much thinking going on when all I'd need to do is: connect "friend happy" with "me happy" ūü§∑‚Äć‚ôÄÔłŹ

Not sure. I'd look into empathy, though. I have been building my ability to empathize with other people. In the "I'm happy you're happy" kind of way, not the crying because you see starving children way. 

 

The way I see it, my friends are amazing and everything, but I don't want them around all that much. Some of my friends can get pretty clingy when they're single, and I'm happy they have someone else occupying their thoughts so they won't be asking me to hang out every day. I need "me time". Like a lot of it. 

Plus, they seem happier when they're with that other person, and they're willing to fix parts of themselves they should have fixed long ago. I like my friends and so want them to be happy. 

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Whore*of*Mensa

If you’re a long term user of anti depressants (as I am) they can blunt your emotions. So that could be part of it.

 

It could also be more of a personality thing; maybe you‚Äôre not very sentimental. I do know people who¬†consider the ups and downs of individuals around them to be trivial matters, and think and act more in the interests of changing the world for the better. Maybe they‚Äôre more abstract thinkers (when I think about this more I realise these people I‚Äôve encountered are male academics). It‚Äôs not necessarily ‚Äėwrong‚Äô not to be able to conjure up emotion about the day to day lives of others. We need both types of people and perspective.¬†

 

I tend to to hear more from people when they‚Äôre sad rather than happy so I‚Äôd probably look at the photo of the happy couple and think ‚Äėgood for them, wonder how long it‚Äôll last and I hope I‚Äôm not picking up the pieces of the divorce¬†in a few years.‚Äô!

 

I’m not sentimental either...A lot does depend on your own experience.

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Moderne Jazzhanden

Your stone is hardness of heart - the opposite of the sympathetic joy you should feel at others happiness, which would make you feel good as well. But then you also don't feel sympathetic sadness at someone else's dying process either. 

 

You are insightful enough to have seen all this and honest enough to admit it. If you have the self-awareness to know that the stone is some kind of block (that is perhaps causing your depression) then you need to think back to events in the past that may have exposed you to the kind of trauma or suffering that made you withdraw and want to repress all that negativity that threatened you at the time. 

 

Who is the you that knows there is something wrong? The real, hidden, non-problematic you who knows that somehow the superficial ego has become disassociative. This implies some kind of a defence mechanism, don't you think? You've blocked yourself. You're hiding something from yourself. But despite your current invulnerability, which has its own genuine advantages, the price of doing whatever it is you have done to block yourself is existentially too high. But this blocked suffering you isn't truly who you are. And you are emotionally intelligent enough to know this. 

 

Think back...

 

When were you last vulnerable? Who made you feel this way? What happened next? 

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Sarah-Sylvia

When you put barriers up to protect yourself (which you probably have), it can become all about you and your own interests, disconnected from caring for others. I was non-caring for a lot of my early life, so I understand how it is to some degree, and still do get thoughts and feelings that are like that, even either jealous or disconnected, etc, and those make it harder to be happy or sad for others.

Since then I've learned to let those thoughts and feelings pass a little more, so even if I do feel them at times, I can also care more when I remember more how I want to be. (including with my heart)
I don't like 'having to' care for others, and that was quite a thing I had to deal with, in fact probably enhanced because of an experience I had with someone who took advantage of my caring nature, and strung me along and I suffered because of it. Since then I've put barriers and if something like that happens again I'll let them suffer on their own, I care too much about myself to be like that again. But since I've come down from that, I realize caring shouldn't be coming from 'having to' or worry anyway. It should come from the heart.

When you realize how you've felt, and care about your feelings, and want to be happy, you can relate that to others. Everyone wants the same, everyone has a heart and has had pain as well as want joy. It's that kind of empathy that lets me care more for others than I used to, because I know they're like me to some degree, and I want them to be happy too.  Just, not at the expense of my own :)

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thyristor
On 11/28/2019 at 12:26 AM, Sarah-Sylvia said:

 offer ourselves some goodness, it becomes easier to love others as well, because we don't put as much on them. if that makes sense

I've hear of this... the concept of taking care of oneself. I don't think I'm able to do that without a bad conscience anymore. I've always tried to put effort into making things right, when I see they are wrong. This has always resulted in me trying to proof to others that it's reasonable to do that little extra or to refrain from this or that so that we all can be equal and stuff. My efforts to minimize my ecological footprint have become immens over the last years, they infiltrate every minute of my life. Even more so since May this year, when I started being an actual activist. I always put myself last, mentally. It's like, what I do is very important but what I am is nothing. It's obviously not good and I need to find some balance in that.

 

On 11/28/2019 at 7:16 AM, SithGrinch said:

Not sure. I'd look into empathy, though. I have been building my ability to empathize with other people. In the "I'm happy you're happy" kind of way, not the crying because you see starving children way.

Hmm... I've been reflecting on this, I'm not sure I even know how to be happy. For example: when I was in a choir a couple of years ago, there was one woman, I didnt' know her very well, but I knew she had some trouble with her teenager having bad company. I used to accomany her on her way home, although it was a little out of my way, because she didn't feel safe, whereas I never felt that way. One time when I asked, how she was, she mentioned that she was going to move the next weekend, but her friend that had promised to help her carry stuff had cancelled. Obviously I was there, helping her for two days. I have no trouble to mobilize when I see an injustice or misery. But I have no energy to cook food for my family. Anyway, I was content with myself having helped her. I did the right thing. But, "happy"? How do you feel happy, when one whole weekend is gone, you are physically tired and come back to your own house where lots of things need to be fixed?

 

On 11/28/2019 at 9:29 AM, Whore*of*Mensa said:

If you’re a long term user of anti depressants (as I am) they can blunt your emotions. So that could be part of it.

 

It could also be more of a personality thing; maybe you‚Äôre not very sentimental. I do know people who¬†consider the ups and downs of individuals around them to be trivial matters, and think and act more in the interests of changing the world for the better. Maybe they‚Äôre more abstract thinkers (when I think about this more I realise these people I‚Äôve encountered are male academics). It‚Äôs not necessarily ‚Äėwrong‚Äô not to be able to conjure up emotion about the day to day lives of others. We need both types of people and perspective.

I've been non-sentimental ever since I was a kid I guess. Anti-depressants came in  less than a decade ago, with longer pauses. The help you get in Sweden is often a bit naive and superficial. Some instance suggested I should try to get to the psychiatric department at the hospital, amongst others for a possible diagnosis of Asperger's syndrome. But when I proposed that to my doctor who is to initiate the contact, he said that they have no resources, it's not even enough to have suicidal thoughts, you need to be _planning suicide_ to get through. ^^ (don't read this wrong: I have no suicidal thoughts, but if I did, it wouldn't be enough to get me through to the hospital.)

 

The description of those male academics fits well into my personality. But it seems to be natural for any person to love and care for their kids at least. Right now I'm hiding behind my social and environmental activism, as long as I have that, I feel it is somwhat reasonable, that I don't have time and energy to meet with my kids.

 

On 11/28/2019 at 6:57 PM, Sarah-Sylvia said:

 I realize caring shouldn't be coming from 'having to' or worry anyway. It should come from the heart.

When you realize how you've felt, and care about your feelings, and want to be happy, you can relate that to others. Everyone wants the same, everyone has a heart and has had pain as well as want joy. It's that kind of empathy that lets me care more for others than I used to, because I know they're like me to some degree,

Yea, the kind of caring that comes from my heart is more intense the further away the person is from me, in social terms. Yet, the lovey-dovey collegue is not that close to me, so, not only does it have to be a bit away from my social core, it also has to be a negative feeling if I am to care about it. So, again, how does one feel happy?

 

 

On 11/28/2019 at 12:41 PM, Moderne Jazzhanden said:

then you need to think back to events in the past that may have exposed you to the kind of trauma or suffering that made you withdraw and want to repress all that negativity that threatened you at the time. 

 

Who is the you that knows there is something wrong? The real, hidden, non-problematic you who knows that somehow the superficial ego has become disassociative. This implies some kind of a defence mechanism, don't you think? You've blocked yourself. You're hiding something from yourself. But despite your current invulnerability, which has its own genuine advantages, the price of doing whatever it is you have done to block yourself is existentially too high. But this blocked suffering you isn't truly who you are. And you are emotionally intelligent enough to know this. 

 

Think back...

 

When were you last vulnerable? Who made you feel this way? What happened next? 

On 11/28/2019 at 6:57 PM, Sarah-Sylvia said:

 

[I can't seem to remove that empty trailing commentbox, don't care about it]

 

It's hard to get this all together. First of all, I think it is a combination of a depression on one hand, that I've probably been having long before I realized it was a depression. Earlier it usually manifested itself by me falling madly in love with someone. After my pointless long time relationship I realized that my earlier crushes not necessarily meant that it was a relationship I needed, since I'm so bad at being one part of a good relationship. So I admitted to myself the following things: 1) I can fall in love with guys, but I can just enjoy the feeling while it lasts and not care if they walk away and are not interested, because 2) it's not 'having them' that I need and 3) my depressive times will come and go anyway, guys or not; 4) they'll be intense and unwanted, but I needn't put any energy into eliminating them, cos they'll just come and go, no matter how I try to do sports or eat right or find a date or manage to send xmas-cards to all my relatives.

 

One other part that combines with the depression is that I am very analytic which makes me a slow and energy-consuming thinker, which in turn leaves me no energy to discipline myself when I need to get rid of thoughts by for example taking a walk. I find it so damn hard to force myself. The couch is freaking magnetic ever so often.

 

It's interesting that you ask about the 'last' time I was vulnerable, not the 'first' time. I haven't figured out the consequences of the two different variations, or I probably fear to figure it out all too easily. I'll get back to that.

 

*grabbing some sleep now*

 

THANX FOR YOUR REPLIES, ALL OF YOU! I really appreciate this psychology session... I knew that I needed it badly, I didn't realize how much the stone-tale was asking for it to get done....

 

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Sarah-Sylvia
1 hour ago, elisabeth_II said:

I've hear of this... the concept of taking care of oneself. I don't think I'm able to do that without a bad conscience anymore. I've always tried to put effort into making things right, when I see they are wrong. This has always resulted in me trying to proof to others that it's reasonable to do that little extra or to refrain from this or that so that we all can be equal and stuff. My efforts to minimize my ecological footprint have become immens over the last years, they infiltrate every minute of my life. Even more so since May this year, when I started being an actual activist. I always put myself last, mentally. It's like, what I do is very important but what I am is nothing. It's obviously not good and I need to find some balance in that.
 

[...]
 

THANX FOR YOUR REPLIES, ALL OF YOU! I really appreciate this psychology session... I knew that I needed it badly, I didn't realize how much the stone-tale was asking for it to get done....

 


We're all still learning about ourselves and how to be happy, but I definitely see now more complexity that you've shared. Everyone's complex but it's interesting to hear it honestly like you've done. I can say that I relate at least to some of your feelings. And there was a time in my life where I didn't really understand how to care or be happy. And yes looking back at it I would probably say I didn't understand some things about me and how I felt. It took me a while to understand or remember some things about happiness. When I was a kid, I was happy, joyful, at quite a few times, and then there were other times when I was adult, even if not as pronounced, or maybe good bits and pieces I've felt. It gives me a measure for happiness to some degree.

Happiness has two sides to it, conditional and unconditional. The conditional side has to do with how things are meaningful to you, and how you feel. Like, if something good happens, like someone gives you something you really wanted, you'll feel joy, and be happy about it. Just an example, but it goes much further, especially when we're talking about passions and stuff. Unconditional happiness is kind of like just wanting to enjoy and make the best of things regardless of how they are. Sometimes you might feel down because something bad happened, but it is technically possible to feel it through and then remember that you want to feel good anyway. Don't feel like any of this has to be easy. There were some times in my life where they were, but I've also struggled a lot and it definitely wasn't always easy. But it's possible, and that's what counts first.

I can also understand feeling drive from care that's around negative feelings. Like seeing people suffering and wanting to do what's 'right', or offer care and compassion, etc. Yeah. When the heart is learning that side of things, it can be harder to connect to the positive side. I think.. and I say think, because I'm still trying to understand it for myself, ..it's important to learn in one way, and that someone can learn to connect to the heart even if it does have that negative sense,.. but the thing is that the 'best' solution will always contain love. So eventually, I do believe that the best bridge will be something like compassion and care. And anger would turn into passion (for making things right, etc).
I haven't really managed to get there yet, but I do really believe it's the way, and that there's a way.
Other than that, distraction can work to think and feel differently, and sometimes there's more openings to connect with lighter feelings. Sometimes it helps us to not think or feel as much about things. Give our system a rest. Sometimes we try too much to feeling something or other, and block the natural feelings that could come up (including ones that would make sense)

I'm sorry that you feel things in a way where you put yourself last. Here's how I think about it now. The best ideal is that everyone is happy. And that goes hand in hand with everyone feeling like they can be themselves (and respect themselves), and do what they like, take care of themselves, etc. Because everyone is the best person to ensure goodness for themselves. Doesn't mean we can't share and give goodness to others, that's great, but it's caring to say to someone, do what you need to do to be happy. Knowing that, it only makes sense that everyone deserves to be happy in themselves. I want you to be happy, I think everyone deserves to be. If you could at some point let yourself know that it's ok, and good, I'd be glad about that too :)

Said enough for now ūüėú

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Whore*of*Mensa
1 hour ago, elisabeth_II said:

The description of those male academics fits well into my personality. But it seems to be natural for any person to love and care for their kids at least. Right now I'm hiding behind my social and environmental activism, as long as I have that, I feel it is somwhat reasonable, that I don't have time and energy to meet with my kids.

You say that your kids have a very engaged and caring Dad. You care about something, and your kids will see that...

 

I grew up with a Mum who was there dealing with my immediate emotional needs (mostly) and a Dad who was very invested in the wider world. He was one of the male academics I talked about. He would get very upset about injustices in the world, and I found that inspiring. I always knew he cared about me although he was not there for me emotionally on a day to day basis. I'm not sure what I'm trying to say here, other than that - you are concerned about whether you love and care for your kids, which in a way means that you do love and care for them. And, your concern is quite gendered - I don't know if you would feel so bad about lacking time and energy for your kids if you were a man, as this would be considered normal. But, does it matter, as long as they have a parent who can engage with them on a daily basis and a parent who teaches them something about the wider world? - does it matter if the 'caring' parent is the Dad, and the disengaged parent is the Mum? That's fine as long as their needs are met..

 

I am just guessing really, without full information on your situation, this is just what I picked up from things you said. 

 

But I think it's OK to be as you are. As I said, I've been 'dead inside' often, and unfortunately for my child I've been the only parent. So how I dealt with this was to openly blame myself - as in, literally telling her I'm feeling grumpy and that's the way I am, it's got nothing to do with her because she is amazing and I love her...And working to get myself back together this way. I do feel guilty but I also feel that I have done my best and - more importantly - that she does feel certain that she is loved. 

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thyristor

There Was a time wherr i even had to ask my ex to tell my kids from me that I love them. I just couldnt say the words myself. Funny how there can be such  a disconnection between ideology and the percieved self, and how screwed up my self awareness can be.

 

Im seeing my kids every fourth weekend and they ll arrive any Moment now. I'll be commenting more after the weekend. And Reporting on my feelings under these new insights.(typing on the phone sucks...)

 

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Nylocke

I don't feel anything from couples because I am often surrounded by them between my brothers, my parents, and in laws.

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Moderne Jazzhanden

The first time something happens may set a pattern: but the last time something happened might've changed things - unless you try to block this, which would be distressing. 

 

If you don't like the way you perceive yourself to be atm do you need to make a change, or acknowledge one that has already happened? After all, there was a time when you didn't dislike yourself/what is going on.

 

The stone analogy - indicating a block presumably - seems to me to imply the latter case. But only you really know... 

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Glenster
On 11/27/2019 at 6:17 PM, elisabeth_II said:

 

If its hurting you as much as it seems, please find someone to talk to. It doesn't have to be a therapist if that's not an option, but try to at least tell someone you trust about this. I realize that's a really hard thing to admit to someone in person, but if this feeling is becoming your normal? No one deserves to feel like that.

Edited by Glenster
Duplicated
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Glenster
On 11/27/2019 at 6:17 PM, elisabeth_II said:

But trying to imagine the situation right now, if my ex told me that one of our kids had cancer, ? Somehow, I would expect any person to be feeling anxious about missing out many years of being together with them. I don't feel anxious about not being with them.

In regards to this, have you had the actual experience of a child or friend going through something like terminal cancer? Don't feel as if you need to directly answer, as it's a very sensitive and personal topic. If not, I think there's nothing wrong with your sentiments. You need to understand that if you feel "nothing" when imagining a terrible scenario like that, that's not bad in anyway. It's hard to experience intense emotion when you've never actually confronted it yourself in person. And about you seeing a facebook post about your friends engagement; your reaction doesn't make you a terrible person. That "stone" you felt, I think I vaguely know what you're talking about. In my personal experience, I've found it came a lot from looking on social media. A very close friend of mine recently had a child. She wasn't able to for YEARS, so when I found out she was pregnant it was a complete shock. She moved away before giving birth, so I never got to really see her go through her journey. A long while later, I saw she posted on Instagram a beautiful picture of her and her newborn baby. I knew it was a good thing, but I had that same "stone" feeling. I realize it wasn't because I didn't care, but it was because she had this miracle and I wasn't there to see it. It's a random kind of sadness, yeah? Like you know that you should be happy, yet after all of your time not seeing her you realize that you missed it and it's not the same. I'm rarely on social media because of it- it just puts me on this downward spiral of, "Im not there, I don't care. why don't I care? What's wrong with me?" I know for me this was a big factor in my depression, because if I spent anytime on social media, I'd start blaming myself for not living life to the fullest or resenting ppl for looking happy, unlike everyone else on social media- but thats not true bc on social media, we only see positivity and other's fun experiences when in reality they have crappy stuff going on as well. I recognized it being this numb feeling, for you it might be different. I suggest that if your feeling like this and its bringing you real pain- find help, it doesn't have to be a therapist, but I def think that would be helpful. I had to and there's no shame in that. Know you're not a terrible person for not getting emotional over  hypotheticals in life and if that numbness becomes overwhelming, please find someone to help. Don't let a bad feeling become your normal and don't tell yourself that it IS normal, you're not an emotionless brick. You struggling with this and being concerned is proof that you're not. You're in a hard situation, but I don't think that what your saying relates to your romantic or sexual orientations. I hope this gave you some comfort or insight in someway. Please ask me any questions if you find that my experiences might relate to yours, or even if it doesn't. I wish you all the best. :)

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thyristor
On 11/30/2019 at 1:30 AM, Sarah-Sylvia said:

Happiness has two sides to it, conditional and unconditional. The conditional side has to do with how things are meaningful to you, and how you feel. Like, if something good happens, like someone gives you something you really wanted, you'll feel joy, and be happy about it.

Already at this point, I'm not with you anymore. If someone gives me something, I feel guilty. And "really wanting something" I don't even allow myself anymore. What would be so important for my survival that I'd be entitled to wish for it really much? I guess that is a combination of my depression and my obsession with world peace, equal distribution of resources and wealth and environmental care. It's a bit self destructive, and I am aware of this and try to monitor myself a bit on that. Talking about all this is one way for me to cope. It's probably dangerous that I won't allow myself to be happy, and by talking about it I might eventually find some sort of balance, discover things that I CAN be happy about without having a bad conscience for poor kids in Africa.

 

On 11/30/2019 at 1:30 AM, Sarah-Sylvia said:

Unconditional happiness is kind of like just wanting to enjoy and make the best of things regardless of how they are.

I always try to find positive aspects in seemingly negative things, when it comes to other people. As a traindriver, I often try to comfort the people that travel to and from work with us five days a week. On a Monday I might wish them a good hour of sleep on the train, on a rainy day I tell them how lucky they are that they don't need to maneuver their car on the highway with bad sight and conditions, on a thursday morning I remind them that half the week is already gone, stuff like that. There is so much longing in me to make other people feel good, people I don't even know, or people I hardly know, like collegues or people in my neighbourhood.

 

When writing these things, I'm so astonished, that I can't feel that same longing for the people who are closest to me. Is it that I'm too lazy? Is it that I'm afraid that I can't do it consequently? Is it that it seems like a char to me that makes me unwilling to do it? Is it that I'm afraid they might not believe me (cos they know I'm really depressed, instead of happy that half the week is already over)? Is it that they expect me to please them in other ways, like getting those things done that actually fall within my role as a mother, housekeeper, doughter etc.? It feels so irrational to implement so much care about strangers and so little about my nearest ones.

 

On 11/30/2019 at 1:30 AM, Sarah-Sylvia said:

Sometimes you might feel down because something bad happened, but it is technically possible to feel it through and then remember that you want to feel good anyway. Don't feel like any of this has to be easy. There were some times in my life where they were, but I've also struggled a lot and it definitely wasn't always easy. But it's possible, and that's what counts first.

I can also understand feeling drive from care that's around negative feelings. Like seeing people suffering and wanting to do what's 'right', or offer care and compassion, etc. Yeah. When the heart is learning that side of things, it can be harder to connect to the positive side. I think.. and I say think, because I'm still trying to understand it for myself, ..it's important to learn in one way, and that someone can learn to connect to the heart even if it does have that negative sense,.. but the thing is that the 'best' solution will always contain love. So eventually, I do believe that the best bridge will be something like compassion and care. And anger would turn into passion (for making things right, etc).
I haven't really managed to get there yet, but I do really believe it's the way, and that there's a way.

I think there is a kind of amplitude of happiness as well. Some people are very contained and show little feelings even if they have a positive feeling. Let's say finding a dollar on the street gives them 2 happiness and going to a concert gives them 5 happiness, whereas other people get 2 happiness for the dollar but 10 happiness for the concert. Since the first person usually feels at most 6 happiness, the concert is one of the best thing they know. But the people who are able to experience 15 happiness, can't seem to understand why the other person can't feel more than 5 happiness for the concert.

 

I imagine that there is such a scale for the outer symptoms, like laughing, smiling broadly, skipping, high pulse etc, and there is also such a scale for the graveness, the importance, the impact that the happiness has on the soul of the person. And I think the two scales can differ in one person. Person A can be physically excited at the concert and have a deep and long lasting mental effect, as in, feeling fullfilled, content, experiencing meaningfulness in their life. Person B can be physically excited but still be depressed right away one hour after the concert, cos the happiness is just an outside thing. Person C can be very cool at the concert, almost looking bored, but can still have a long lasting and deep mental happiness. And person D can look bored, enjoy the concert mentally for the moment but have no lasting effekt, cos the mental joy was so weak.

 

I think I'm quite close to persons B and D, closer to D than to B, getting closer and closer to D if I don't watch it and sort of force myself to a bit of fun. (I stopped drinking softdrinks some time ago for environmental reasons, but it struck me, now it's actually Christmas time and in Sweden we have a seasons' softdrink which I now will buy without bad conscience at weekends).

 

On 11/30/2019 at 1:30 AM, Sarah-Sylvia said:

Other than that, distraction can work to think and feel differently, and sometimes there's more openings to connect with lighter feelings. Sometimes it helps us to not think or feel as much about things. Give our system a rest. Sometimes we try too much to feeling something or other, and block the natural feelings that could come up (including ones that would make sense)

I dispise TV, but I _know_ it'd do me good if I watched some stupid TV at least once or twice a week :D just to clear my brain and give it a rest. But it's so hard to give in.... Music does not work as a true distraction. I can feel excited about music, I can even start dancing and experience those moments of excitement and also mental happiness actually. But it is too engaging intellectually since I understand music too well; I start analyzing it right away, I start accounting for myself whether I could play it or learn to play it like that, write it like that or whether it is more or less artistic than some other piece of music etc.

 

On 11/30/2019 at 1:30 AM, Sarah-Sylvia said:

I want you to be happy, I think everyone deserves to be. If you could at some point let yourself know that it's ok, and good, I'd be glad about that too

Yeap, like I said, I'm working on it, sort of. Monitoring myself not to get too hard on myself.

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thyristor
On 12/1/2019 at 6:05 PM, Moderne Jazzhanden said:

The first time something happens may set a pattern: but the last time something happened might've changed things - unless you try to block this, which would be distressing. 

 

If you don't like the way you perceive yourself to be atm do you need to make a change, or acknowledge one that has already happened? After all, there was a time when you didn't dislike yourself/what is going on.

 

The stone analogy - indicating a block presumably - seems to me to imply the latter case. But only you really know... 

The only thing that I truely dislike with myself and cannot really stand for is the lack of longing for my kids.

 

That I am not a family type, not a partnership type is okay. That I don't have the energy to write Christmascards to my realtives is okay. It is awkward in the light of the immense amount I care about strangers, but it is okay. I ponder on that, but more because I want to find a way to put it in words, than to change it.

 

I was suffering through a crush two summers in a row. Vulnerable is not the word I associate with them. I entered both of them perfectly aware that I don't want a relationship and that the other person would not be a suitable partner for me anyway, not even for a week, and also fully aware that I will be hurting and longing for contact with the person. But I've been longing for having a friendship with someone who understands me, who cares in the same way as I do or so and who will share a large amount of time with me; I guess it's what is called a platonic relationship. Maybe I was trying to tell myself, that having a romantic crush would be just for fun, fun while they last, with a little pain on the side but no worries when they don't lead to a romantic relationship. But in reality I have platonic crushes and they are breaking me, they are not fun, because everytime they go down the drain, it's my wish for a platonic partner that goes down the drain and has to start over from the beginning. :thinking:

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thyristor
On 12/3/2019 at 1:37 PM, Glenster said:

If its hurting you as much as it seems, please find someone to talk to. It doesn't have to be a therapist if that's not an option, but try to at least tell someone you trust about this. I realize that's a really hard thing to admit to someone in person, but if this feeling is becoming your normal? No one deserves to feel like that.

I tried talking to people and to therapists. But somehow I get a lot more out of posting on this forum. There are people here that are analytic as I am. The therapists I've had, never lived up to the depth of my thoughts.

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thyristor
On 12/3/2019 at 1:41 PM, Glenster said:

You need to understand that if you feel "nothing" when imagining a terrible scenario like that, that's not bad in anyway. It's hard to experience intense emotion when you've never actually confronted it yourself in person.

Yea, it seems like I've been pretty safe from bad stuff my whole life. My mum was a single parent but it doesn't get any worse than that. She took good care of me, she hung with lots of other single parents so I wouldn't feel different, and all my life I pretty much succeeded with the stuff I set out to do. I gave up a lot of goals I set, but mostly because I wouldn't bother to the extent that I'd overcome my laziness and work hard for them. But I've never felt discriminated, I've never been out of work, I've never failed an exam, I've never had any severe sickness or relations with severely sick people. Lucky bastard... That is also one factor why I usually feel guilty when even more good stuff happens to me.

 

On 12/3/2019 at 1:41 PM, Glenster said:

A long while later, I saw she posted on Instagram a beautiful picture of her and her newborn baby. I knew it was a good thing, but I had that same "stone" feeling. I realize it wasn't because I didn't care, but it was because she had this miracle and I wasn't there to see it. It's a random kind of sadness, yeah? Like you know that you should be happy, yet after all of your time not seeing her you realize that you missed it and it's not the same.

Could it be, that what you actually want to cry out is something like: "Why can't I have that miracle, why can't I tell the world that I'm a friend of the mother of this miracle? Damn!!" but you know that would be irrational and selfish. You know that it is more polite to truely feel happy _for_your_friend_, not for yourself being acquainted to someone with a baby. Because you have to suppress the first feeling, you get that stone, and it makes it hard for you to experience the second feeling. At least, that is often the way I look at my own feelings. The social media example in my opening post, I probably wanted to shout: why can't I have a platonic soulmate? But it would not feel civilized to feel envy in the face of others' happiness. So I suppressed the feeling with the stone and explain the stone by saying that I can't feel happy for others, while the true reason is that I don't allow myself to feel jealous.

 

 

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Sarah-Sylvia
55 minutes ago, elisabeth_II said:

Already at this point, I'm not with you anymore. If someone gives me something, I feel guilty. And "really wanting something" I don't even allow myself anymore. What would be so important for my survival that I'd be entitled to wish for it really much? I guess that is a combination of my depression and my obsession with world peace, equal distribution of resources and wealth and environmental care. It's a bit self destructive, and I am aware of this and try to monitor myself a bit on that. Talking about all this is one way for me to cope. It's probably dangerous that I won't allow myself to be happy, and by talking about it I might eventually find some sort of balance, discover things that I CAN be happy about without having a bad conscience for poor kids in Africa.

Hi again ;)
Later in your reply you talk about scales and how some things can make someone happy and all. That's kind of all I mean. It's conditional on something, and it's relative, to what's meaningful to the person, and their state and how much something fills something they'd like, etc.

 Low self-esteem (which a whole bunch of us have, btw) can add to feel guilty. If someone gives you something and you feel that, you're not letting yourself appreciate the intention.  If you care about giving to those in need, it would be better to do it in care, enjoying spreading goodness. Feeling bad to do stuff is something people need to do less. I know it's not something that can change overnight, but it's still something to think about. You're worth just as much as others. There's nothing wrong with enjoying your life. If you give too much, you won't have enough (including happiness) to thrive and have even more to give. Does that make sense? Because it's pretty important. People need to thrive to be at their best and produce more. The more is produced, the more can be given.

 

55 minutes ago, elisabeth_II said:

I always try to find positive aspects in seemingly negative things, when it comes to other people. As a traindriver, I often try to comfort the people that travel to and from work with us five days a week. On a Monday I might wish them a good hour of sleep on the train, on a rainy day I tell them how lucky they are that they don't need to maneuver their car on the highway with bad sight and conditions, on a thursday morning I remind them that half the week is already gone, stuff like that. There is so much longing in me to make other people feel good, people I don't even know, or people I hardly know, like collegues or people in my neighbourhood.

 

When writing these things, I'm so astonished, that I can't feel that same longing for the people who are closest to me. Is it that I'm too lazy? Is it that I'm afraid that I can't do it consequently? Is it that it seems like a char to me that makes me unwilling to do it? Is it that I'm afraid they might not believe me (cos they know I'm really depressed, instead of happy that half the week is already over)? Is it that they expect me to please them in other ways, like getting those things done that actually fall within my role as a mother, housekeeper, doughter etc.? It feels so irrational to implement so much care about strangers and so little about my nearest ones.


Yeah, well I'm glad again that you can be honest about it, it's something that people would usually save for a therapist. Emotions are complicated. Everyone has weird problems in some ways. If I had to guess, I would think maybe it has to do with pressure to care? It makes sense when it comes from the heart, and it may be easier to do that with strangers because they pass and go, it's easier to care without putting pressure on yourself. Bear in mind it's just my theory because I can relate to feeling pressured to care for people closer like family. Like anything, it's something that could flow naturally, but because we 'know' that it makes sense for it to be that way, we put pressure on ourselves to maintain it, and then we crumble because we ask for too much of ourselves. Sometimes we put barriers up to keep ourselves from crumbling. Humans can be weird like that.

It could easily be something different too, but it's at least an example of what could go on.
In my case, I have barriers that make it hard to connect with family, but I think it has to do with how I felt anxious and outcast by certain things years back, and to protect myself I put a little bit of distance between them and me. It might've helped with some things, but it also keeps me from connecting as deep as I could with them. It's not as bad now though, but I still feel it to some degree.
 

55 minutes ago, elisabeth_II said:

I dispise TV, but I _know_ it'd do me good if I watched some stupid TV at least once or twice a week :D just to clear my brain and give it a rest. But it's so hard to give in.... Music does not work as a true distraction. I can feel excited about music, I can even start dancing and experience those moments of excitement and also mental happiness actually. But it is too engaging intellectually since I understand music too well; I start analyzing it right away, I start accounting for myself whether I could play it or learn to play it like that, write it like that or whether it is more or less artistic than some other piece of music etc.

 

Yeap, like I said, I'm working on it, sort of. Monitoring myself not to get too hard on myself.


Hey that's good, it can take exploring some things sometimes. Maybe easy fun projects too, or whatever you find helps. So long as you can find times not just to run on things that use a lot of personal energy, or strains, if you know what I mean.

I hope the best for you, and keep at it, and let yourself be happy when you can :) It's ok if it doesn't just come like that, but it's worth letting a bit more in when you can.
Take care for now ‚̧ԳŹ

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thyristor
18 minutes ago, Sarah-Sylvia said:

Take care for now ‚̧ԳŹ

ūüĆĪ I will! Thanks!

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Anthracite_Impreza
On 11/27/2019 at 10:59 PM, elisabeth_II said:

That's just there, I don't care strongly for people who are close to me.

I relate to this. I don't really love anyone I'm "supposed" to (mother, father, family members). With me though, there's a definite impact from abuse, emotional neglect and toxic/controlling behaviour that basically shut down the part of me that could have ever cared about them. I care about others though - my friends, colleagues, pets and more than anyone, my cars. The only beings I've ever really got upset over losing were pets and vehicles, and one of those cars in particular, literally broke my heart in two. I never got over losing him, so I'm clearly not devoid of feeling.

 

I also feel guilty doing things for me - at work I usually feel guilty even having my dinner, and I basically let people walk all over me by doing jobs that they can't be arsed or don't want to (until recently, I've been barred from it by my friend Engineer because "the knobheads that made the mess will clean up the mess"). I've actually ended up having a mental breakdown partially because I've been trying to take too much on, feeling guilty and responsible for the entire railway. The chasm between lack of care for family and excessive care for the railway where I am only one volunteer is... impressive.

 

On the note about Asperger's/autism. I am diagnosed autistic, and unfortunately I think this was a case of believing the "autistics don't feel empathy" BS. We do. Most autistics love very deeply and are often more empathic than NTs (due to extra sensitivities). You may well be autistic, but basing it on your lack of love for family isn't a good foundation, because autism isn't anything to do with empathy (we just show empathy in different ways that NTs don't understand).

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thyristor
12 hours ago, Anthracite_Impreza said:

The only beings I've ever really got upset over losing were pets and vehicles, and one of those cars in particular, literally broke my heart in two. I never got over losing him, so I'm clearly not devoid of feeling.

This sounds interesting. It feels natural to me that losing a pet can be felt by means of hurt/loss _and_ by means of compassion for the pet that died, for example due to illness. (I'd have a hard time with the latter, I'd rather feel my duty to do something about the pet's pain for example, compassion on a logical plane, not an emotional). But cars or other things usually refered to as non-living, there it feels less natural to me that someone can truely feel compassion for the car, instead of 'just' the hurt inside one self.

 

The reason why it is still interesting is that one might question why humans would give more care to humans than to animals, more care to moving creatures than to plants, more care to large creatures than to single cells, and continueing the thread, why giving more care to living creatures than to non-living? Nothing I've truely reflected upon so far though.

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Anthracite_Impreza
8 hours ago, elisabeth_II said:

But cars or other things usually refered to as non-living, there it feels less natural to me that someone can truely feel compassion for the car, instead of 'just' the hurt inside one self.

I don't understand why others don't feel compassion for machines; it's entirely natural to me and it fucking destroys me to think how badly and carelessly they're treated on a daily basis.

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Moderne Jazzhanden
23 hours ago, elisabeth_II said:

That I am not a family type, not a partnership type is okay. That I don't have the energy to write Christmascards to my realtives is okay. It is awkward in the light of the immense amount I care about strangers, but it is okay. I ponder on that, but more because I want to find a way to put it in words, than to change it.

So you allow yourself to care for people with whom you are not in a relationship with? So the extent to which you are happy or sad all happens within the theatre of you. You can feel joy or hurt but no-one else can manipulate or interfere with this. And you yourself may not be able to control this, so to that extent it feels real in the way the relationships between people who open up to each other feel real: it has in some sense the spontaneous unpredictability that meeting the other has. To me this implies you have been hurt in the past and have withdrawn to the extent that you merely have a 'sort of' relationship with the other. The other is not a puppet controlled by you but now has no power to hurt you as only you can do this to yourself. It seems that this safe option is not just not risky, but also has no chance of being fulfilling because it is ultimately enclosed and self-serving. You want real contact with the other - but you also want a guarantee you won't be hurt. But subconsciously you know that the scenarios you conjure up for yourself with these strangers won't work - you're not able to fool yourself in this way.

 

23 hours ago, elisabeth_II said:

I was suffering through a crush two summers in a row. Vulnerable is not the word I associate with them. I entered both of them perfectly aware that I don't want a relationship and that the other person would not be a suitable partner for me anyway, not even for a week, and also fully aware that I will be hurting and longing for contact with the person. But I've been longing for having a friendship with someone who understands me, who cares in the same way as I do or so and who will share a large amount of time with me; I guess it's what is called a platonic relationship. Maybe I was trying to tell myself, that having a romantic crush would be just for fun, fun while they last, with a little pain on the side but no worries when they don't lead to a romantic relationship. But in reality I have platonic crushes and they are breaking me, they are not fun, because everytime they go down the drain, it's my wish for a platonic partner that goes down the drain and has to start over from the beginning.

You can't have any kind of relationship with the other unless the other is free - either to love or hurt you. You have to be vulnerable to have this. Friends don't - in your opinion and/or experience - stab each other in the back in the same kind of devastating way that lovers or romantic partners can. Friends understand each other and are on the same wavelength and it is this, rather than the sometimes contrarian and tempestuous nature of romantic attraction, that draws them together. This appears to guarantee that friends cannot hurt each other in the way that romantic partners can. Hence you want a safe friendship with the adventurousness of romance thrown in. Romantic partners fall in love and then - hopefully - stay in love but also become friends. But you want this the other way around. The reason you have to reinvent your idea of the platonic partner you want is that every time you try to cast someone in the role you script for them they end up playing themselves, so to speak, and don't fit into the role you sketch out for them. At which point your sense of who you are is stretched to breaking point.

 

Is that what you're saying?

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Moderne Jazzhanden
1 hour ago, Anthracite_Impreza said:

I don't understand why others don't feel compassion for machines

Because, @Anthracite_Impreza, they don't experience them as sentient or having any kind of consciousness, merely as inanimate objects in the conventional sense of that term.

 

1 hour ago, Anthracite_Impreza said:

it's entirely natural to me and it fucking destroys me to think how badly and carelessly they're treated on a daily basis.

Perhaps you are picking up on something described by Lyall Watson?

 

For example:-

 

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Nature-Things-Secret-Inanimate-Objects/dp/089281408X

 

I read Supernature and The Romeo Error and Lightning Bird many years ago now  and really enjoyed all of them. I always meant to read the one above. But I have as yet not got around to it. I chimed in with what Lyall Watson said in The Romeo Error, though, about there being no such thing as dead, inanimate matter in the way that it is usually described. After a mystical experience I had some years ago now, the way I perceive certain things changed. (Although it would be more accurate to say that I finally noticed that I'd noticed what I hadn't noticed I'd noticed before.) For example, the trees in winter used to appear as if they were dead - in a way I experienced them as dead - even though I knew perfectly well (and could sense?) that they were not. The dead tree in the park also 'changed'. It's no longer dead - nor was it ever - though I don't experience it as having come back to life in the conventional sense. I don't have this with machinery though, but I would agree - based on personal experience - that there is no such thing as what I think most people would call the inanimate, and so that would, from my side, also include machines.

 

Maybe you should read that book I've linked above...

 

Maybe I should...

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Moderne Jazzhanden

@Anthracite_Impreza, I wonder whether you have ever tried dowsing? Something tells me you might be rather good at it. ūüėé

 

As it happens I'm an amateur dowser myself - I use rods rather than a pendulum - but this below, if you can get hold of a copy, is excellent:-

 

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Step-Dark-T-C-Lethbridge/dp/0710017413

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thyristor
12 hours ago, Moderne Jazzhanden said:

So you allow yourself to care for people with whom you are not in a relationship with?

Let's, for the sake and time of this conversation, define the two sets of people we are talking about:

 

'near ones' to me are family (kids, ex, mom, dad, sisters, cousins) plus closer friends, that is, friends that I meet for meeting them, not for doing the things we do. As in, the collegues I meet playing floorball I just meet for floorball's sake, but the collegue I ask for taking a cup of coffee with some time, I consider as close (in a wider sense, but close as in, I should care if they get cancer, and I should be able to tell how old their kids are or in which street they live).

 

'strangers' to me are all people in all countries of the world, people in my neighbourhood, my town, my workplace, the passengers on my train.

 

Yes, I allow myself to care for strangers. Hmm, do you think I don't allow myself to care for near ones? I was about to deny it, it's just that I don't have the energy. But that is because I have some fear of not doing it enough, as in, I don't write the Christmas card because I can't stand the thought of just writing "Merry Christmas from Elisabeth.", that would not match the value that the relationship should have for me, and I don't have the energy to write something more ambitious, like one or two paragraphs, catching up on what happend during the year or expressing some more explicit wish for health, success and so on. So, maybe putting it as 'I don't allow myself to care' is close to adequat.

 

12 hours ago, Moderne Jazzhanden said:

To me this implies you have been hurt in the past and have withdrawn to the extent that you merely have a 'sort of' relationship with the other. The other is not a puppet controlled by you but now has no power to hurt you as only you can do this to yourself. It seems that this safe option is not just not risky, but also has no chance of being fulfilling because it is ultimately enclosed and self-serving. You want real contact with the other - but you also want a guarantee you won't be hurt.

I have never been severely hurt by others, not more than any teenager. I've felt a lot of hurt, but already back when it happened, I knew it wasn't the other person hurting me, it was just life not evolving the way I imagined. Maybe, whereas others tend to say: "That asshole, he left me.", I'd say "He is not meant to be mine, he has the self confidence to walk away and wait for someone that truely matches him, why didn't I have that self confidence but tried to hang on instead?"

 

So, it's more like others maybe direct their bad energy outward, possibly saying bad things about a good, or at least not-so-bad person, but keeping their self image high, whereas I think rationally and see that the other one is not a bad person that should be talked badly about, so, the bad energy has to go somewhere else, and apparently it went deeper inside myself.

 

12 hours ago, Moderne Jazzhanden said:

But subconsciously you know that the scenarios you conjure up for yourself with these strangers won't work - you're not able to fool yourself in this way.

 

You can't have any kind of relationship with the other unless the other is free - either to love or hurt you. You have to be vulnerable to have this. Friends don't - in your opinion and/or experience - stab each other in the back in the same kind of devastating way that lovers or romantic partners can. Friends understand each other and are on the same wavelength and it is this, rather than the sometimes contrarian and tempestuous nature of romantic attraction, that draws them together. This appears to guarantee that friends cannot hurt each other in the way that romantic partners can. Hence you want a safe friendship with the adventurousness of romance thrown in.

 

Is that what you're saying?

No, not really. It's really not about the romantic back-stabbing.

 

It's just that I guess I've mistaken my platonic feelings for romantic ones. Usually, a person doesn't feel the need to have one committed friend, but you have several buddies and there might be one or two that you get very close with. But I feel that mental closeness is not quite enough, I get dissapointed when a friend doesn't make time to meet me. And it's not the kind of romantic or personal meeting I want, as in telling stories of the past or watching a movie. It is that I long for someone who wants to put the same amount of energy as I do into the same things that I want to put energy into.

 

I'd love for a friend that has or makes time to meet up with me and write songs or play instruments, who doesn't get tired before me, who doesn't have other great commitments that are prior to me all the time. Obviously no one can purposely fill that place, it has to be someone who just happens to be that way. So, when I make friends with somebody (regardless of gender), and start to feel close to them mentally, as in, we value the same things in life, we have great conversations on our lunchbreak or so, I tend to sort of fall in love (platonically), because I want to meet them and play some music together for example, or whatever it is the two of us have in common. But every darn time, they have kids or pets, or house, garden, meet other buddies or friends, engage in things that I don't engage in etc.

 

Obviously, that's not a crime, and if it is that way, it's just not meant to be 'us'. But it hurts, when I see them leave. I ask someone for a meeting a couple of times, that is, when we feel that we get along well, of course, and usually the person would say: "Oh, yea, that would be so nice, I'll check when I'll be free." but then they never make time. Typically at some point they will be rational and say: "Oh, I don't think I can make it before next month.". Well, then it would be their turn to get back and tell me a time next month. They don't and when I ask next time, they are already booked out for the whole month again. Then there is no point in asking anymore.

 

Previously, when I felt these things for guys, I mistook it for romantic love, when, I'm pretty sure now, it was a need for a platonic relationship. By that I just mean having someone in my life with whom I feel it is pointless to ask, when we'll meet again, because we naturally meet or chat about each and every day. It doesn't mean the person cannot have other friends. But I don't want to be fighting for attention. I wish for someone who naturally includes me and naturally includes themself in my life. I also don't want to care about their allergies or do their laundry or have them do mine. I want my own room, my own mess at home. So, it's definitely not a romantic or committed relationship I want.

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Moderne Jazzhanden

Hmmm... It's difficult to communicate on the internet, isn't it?

 

What you've just said reminds me of 'The Book of Disquiet' by Pessoa. 

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thyristor
1 hour ago, Moderne Jazzhanden said:

Hmmm... It's difficult to communicate on the internet, isn't it?

Yep. ūüėÉ

 

1 hour ago, Moderne Jazzhanden said:

What you've just said reminds me of 'The Book of Disquiet' by Pessoa. 

I don't know that book. Should I? :thinking:

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