Homosexual and Homoromantic, but not at the same time for the same person(37 y/o male)

[artkuno]

I am a guy.

I am homoromantic -- I have crushed on, and fallen in love with other men.

I am homosexual --  I seek sex often with other men, i watch gay porn, i fantasize about sex with only men.

The issue: I (so far) am not able to feel both romantic AND sexual attraction for the same guy!
 

I'm 37 years old. I have had three romantic relationships fail because I couldn't explain that I did indeed love them, I really enjoyed kissing and cuddling, but I simply did not want to have sex with them. Meanwhile, they knew I would easily have sex with someone besides them I wasn't in love with. (The last guy was OK with me going on one night stands with other guys, until it got too much.) The longest, and last one, lasted two years.

 

Another interesting thing I noticed is that I am sexually attracted to them at the very beginning, but once the romantic feelings rise (and I put them in the "love interest" box in my brain) then the sexual feelings disappear-- I'm talking like after 1 sex session, if that.  I tried dating a new guy very recently, and I observed this happen to me when we were in bed the second time. We were going at it and I said "Do you have to cum tonight? Because I don't. Is it OK if we just cuddle?" We ended up cuddling, but I'm not sure he will come back for more. And I'm sure I don't want to have sex with him anymore, even though the very first time (and only that time) I found sex hot. This is a pattern for me, 10 years and counting!

 

Does anyone feel like me or know someone who has?

Will I be able to find something in the language and discourse on asexuality on this?

Are there any threads you've seen about this?

 

I just want to know if this is a totally 'normal' thing or if it sounds more like an attachment problem, due to past trauma, that needs to be "fixed." I'm hoping your experiences with asexuality can inform me how to 'play my cards right' in my dating life.

[Grimalkin]

This kind of sounds like-- and I promise I'm not insulting you here-- the Madonna-Whore Complex.  It's usually directed at women, but I imagine it could be directed at men if you were attracted to them. The language in that Wikipedia page is harsh, and I don't want it to seem like I'm accusing you of anything because I'm definitely not. Just that maybe a switch flips for you when you fall for someone that makes them seem too good or sweet for sex. 

 

I could be totally off-base here. Either way, I think it's probably not something to do with the split attraction model and more to do with some kind of attachment problem. Probably could do with running it by a LGBT+ friendly therapist to see what they think?

[Rynn]

7 minutes ago, artkuno said:

Another interesting thing I noticed is that I am sexually attracted to them at the very beginning, but once the romantic feelings rise (and I put them in the "love interest" box in my brain) then the sexual feelings disappear.

Maybe google fraysexuality.

 

I have seen similar topics to yours on AVEN before, though I can't remember the title or username, but you are definitely not the only person on the planet to feel this way.

[LeChat]

Tagging @Sexual Ally.

[artkuno]

34 minutes ago, Grimalkin said:

Just that maybe a switch flips for you when you fall for someone that makes them seem too good or sweet for sex. 

Thank you for offering that theory -- I'm not offended at all -- I'm looking to collect as many terms as possible so I can do further research and come to an understanding, so all is welcome. I do relate to two things you mentioned, that yes, it's a "switch" and also that I do think of sexual relationships as "less than" romantic relationships. I have extremely high ideals for romantic relationships (love being 'pure' and all) and while I do find sex fun, satisfying, and a thrill, i also seem to experience it as inherently dirty, selfish and (mutually) exploitative. So I do find it hard to reconcile these conceptions of love and sex in one person, because I engage with love and sex for entirely different purposes!

 

36 minutes ago, Laurann said:

fraysexuality

THANK YOU! Just searching for this term on this forum is already leading me to a lot of people with similar feelings. Getting warmer

[Rynn]

18 minutes ago, artkuno said:

 I have extremely high ideals for romantic relationships (love being 'pure' and all) and while I do find sex fun, satisfying, and a thrill, i also seem to experience it as inherently dirty, selfish and (mutually) exploitative.

You say you 'seem to experience sex as inherently dirty, selfish and (mutually) exploitative,' which is substantially different than saying 'sex is inherently dirty, selfish etc.' Are you trying to step away from viewing sex this way? Because I think if you were trying to do that, then that would be a good thing.

Why can't sex be pure and loving, rather than dirty and selfish? I think this may be something you need to work on. Maybe if you could see sex as a loving, respectful (etc add on the cheese) thing, that may help fix the disconnect you experience between sexual partners and romantic partners.

 

The other posts I remember about experiencing such a disconnect between sexual and romantic attraction were also all made by gay men, so I'm starting to see a pattern here. Do you think it's possible that since gay sex is often demonized by society, that some gay men start to see sex as this inherently dirty and selfish thing, and then they don't want to 'do a dirty and selfish thing' (in quotation marks because I don't believe it to be dirty or selfish) to the person they love the most (their partner)? Basically, maybe this is some sort of internalized cultural homophobia/anti-gay puritanism?

 

Or maybe not, and maybe you are just fraysexual, that's also possible.

 

Keep in mind that I'm just throwing some thoughts out, these are suggestions, it's up to you to figure out the labels you want to use  

[artkuno]

7 minutes ago, Laurann said:

Why can't sex be pure and loving, rather than dirty and selfish? I think this may be something you need to work on. Maybe if you could see sex as a loving, respectful (etc add on the cheese) thing, that may help fix the disconnect you experience between sexual partners and romantic partners.

My past boyfriends have this in common. My last two exes said, almost verbatim, "I want to have sex with you as an expression of my love for you." When I heard that, each time, my heart sank, and I felt anxiety. Because I feel the opposite: "I love you, so I don't want to have sex with you." (I could have added, "At least not now, and if you're willing to stick with me, it could potentially take a very, very long time.") I feel like my next romantic relationship (if it's with a non-asexual person) will have to be framed like this from the start it has any chance of lasting.

 

 

15 minutes ago, Laurann said:

Do you think it's possible that since gay sex is often demonized by society, that some gay men start to see sex as this inherently dirty and selfish thing, and then they don't want to 'do a dirty and selfish thing' (in quotation marks because I don't believe it to be dirty or selfish) to the person they love the most (their partner)?

This is certainly possible (deep down), but I am so out and proud -- I helped run an QTIBIPOC activist group for chrissake. I thought I did this internal work, and perhaps maybe it's never ever truly overcome. 😅

 

Aside from "fraysexual" as a way to bring others together to talk about this, which is great -- I am wondering attachment issues (i'm "fearful-avoidant") could be at the core of fraysexual/romantic difficulties with romance/sexuality. I just want to know if anyone has actually overcome this or not, and all the better if it's a gay man who had to work on internalized shame about sex and all that too.

Thanks for offering  your analyses -- helps to keep following through on my own.

(By the way, hi from Leiden!)

[Rynn]

7 minutes ago, artkuno said:

This is certainly possible (deep down), but I am so out and proud -- I helped run an QTIBIPOC activist group for chrissake. I thought I did this internal work, and perhaps maybe it's never ever truly overcome. 😅

Haha I'm a moderator on an asexuality related forum, and I am not at all over my internalized acephobia. It's still very much there. So yeah, I don't doubt that you're out and proud, I just think this shit runs deep. But yeah I can't tell you if that's the same for you obviously  

 

10 minutes ago, artkuno said:

Aside from "fraysexual" as a way to bring others together to talk about this, which is great -- I am wondering attachment issues (i'm "fearful-avoidant") could be at the core of fraysexual/romantic difficulties with romance/sexuality. I just want to know if anyone has actually overcome this or not, and all the better if it's a gay man who had to work on internalized shame about sex and all that too.

This I don't know. I wish I could help you, but I don't have experience with this. 

 

8 minutes ago, artkuno said:

(By the way, hi from Leiden!)

I was in Leiden literally today to have lunch with a friend! I study there actually.

It would be creepy if we ran into each other and had no idea.

[Grey-Ace Ventura]

I don't have any terms or anything to suggest, but I can relate on some level. Generally, I experience sexual attraction to females I don't have romantic feelings for, and when I experience romantic attraction, I don't experience sexual attraction to the same person. I guess my feelings about sex are similar to what you mentioned earlier about not wanting to have sex with someone because you love them. I haven't been in love with anyone but this applies to my crushes. As for overcoming it, I haven't gotten there yet but the stuff in this thread is actually helping me so thank you guys 😂

[NickyTannock]

I've moved this thread from "Questions about Asexuality" to "Romantic and Aromantic Orientations".
 
Michael Tannock,
Open Mic moderator and Questions about Asexuality Co-moderator.

[Sarah-Sylvia]

So, seems to me that in this case, the asexual feelings stem from seeing as incompatible with romance. Which I find  a tad weird, but at the same time it makes sense for some feelings that people can have. It's too bad that sex is seen as something dirty or something. It can be, but it can also be a certain way of affection that someone can share with a partner.
That said, I do think that 'love' is sometimes removed out of the equation when it comes to certain desires. It's possible that testosterone is partly responsible for triggering 'more' some of the desire for some, because now that my hormones have changed (They're in the female range), I can say that it's different and maybe easier to bring love into sensuality and beyond, rather than being driven by any sexual desires of themselves. I can understand why some people (especially women) need to be 'in the mood' for sex, because some feelings have to be brought along to make it meaningful (besides some people that can be horny, I guess). I think i'm always in the mood for cuddling and affection though

[Sexual Ally]

As a gay man, I can certainly relate to what you're saying.  It's been a struggle sustaining a high level of sexual interest in my own romantic partners over time.  This isn't something I've conquered, so I don't have a template for you to follow.  But I have some thoughts on why I (we) feel the way we do. 

 

This may not apply to you, but I personally realized long ago my sexual compulsion issues were a big part of my life &  cause me to act out sexually when facing depression, anxiety, or whenever I sought out external validation. Sex is not a good long-term "fix" for any of these things, but does provide a short-term dopamine rush.  And then you're back to square one, w the addition ones "acting out" sexually may bring (such as cheating if you're in a monogamous relationship.)

 

Let's assume sexual compulsion is not an issue for you.  Have you thought about whether you actually want to be in a monogamous relationship?  When I was younger, I assumed monogamy was the only choice.   I'm not going to make that mistake again next time I won't enter into a monogamous relationship unless I truly believe I am ready, nor will I be so closed-minded as to think an open relationship is somehow less-than.  If you choose  an open relationship, you can theoretically  have your proverbial and eat it too.  Except you say:

 

12 hours ago, artkuno said:

 while I do find sex fun, satisfying, and a thrill, i also seem to experience it as inherently dirty, selfish and (mutually) exploitative. So I do find it hard to reconcile these conceptions of love and sex in one person, because I engage with love and sex for entirely different purposes!

This makes even an open relationship a challenge unless it were with an ace.  And this is the crux of the issue.  Getting bored with one partner and seeking variety is nothing new.  But getting sexually bored with your romantic partner to the point where you become sex-adverse towards them immediately is going to make it impossible to sustain a romantic/sexual relationship with the same person, open or not. 

 

What gets us off sexually is usually unconscious.  It sounds that it's not you enjoy roleplay where sex is selfish and there is a power dynamic --- you actually believe deep down this to be true.  This fact is running counter towards the possibility of your sustaining emotional bonds with yr sexual partners.  After all,  if you have a conscience,  you're gonna feel bad exploiting someone you love, right?  I think these are issues you need to work on with a therapist (if you choose.)  Roleplay that is dirty/selfish/manipulative can be great.  But really believing sex is these things will doom your romantic liaisons --- no matter what your orientation. 

 

A more sex-positive mindset will get you away from what @Grimalkin rightly described as the Madonna/Whore Complex, where sexual v. romantic partners are stratified in our minds into separate categories.  What is the cause?  Idk.  Attachment issues?   Could be many things.  But this is bothering you, so it's worth working this out with a non-judgmental, sex-positive therapist.  And you may be able to get to a place where sex is no longer intrinsically dirty, but you're able to transfer these deep-rooted feelings into sex-positive kinky roleplay, so that "nasty" sex w someone you care about is an option. 

 

Please keep exploring this, which is so much better than what most ppl w this issue do --- jump from one failed relationship to the next their whole lives, w no clue as to why.  You already have an idea of your psychological make-up.  Do yrself a favor & do the deeper exploration now, while avoiding putting yrself or anyone else in heartbreaking situations by avoiding relationships that would have you repeat your pattern & make promises you can't keep at this time.  This doesn't make you a bad person!  It's just where you're at, and the mature thing is to not rope someone seeking monogamy into your orbit at this time   I wish you all the best. 

[NickyTannock]

@artkuno I agree that what you've described sounds like Fraysexuality.

 

[artkuno]

 

 Thank you @Sexual Ally for taking the time to offer your thoughts!
I agree with you on this point:

 

On 11/27/2019 at 10:30 AM, Sexual Ally said:

But getting sexually bored with your romantic partner to the point where you become sex-adverse towards them immediately is going to make it impossible to sustain a romantic/sexual relationship with the same person, open or not. 

I have learned this the hard way and that's why I'm trying to understand what's going on with me better.

And also agree with you strongly here:

On 11/27/2019 at 10:30 AM, Sexual Ally said:

you actually believe deep down this to be true.  This fact is running counter towards the possibility of your sustaining emotional bonds with yr sexual partners.  After all,  if you have a conscience,  you're gonna feel bad exploiting someone you love, right? 

 

It's really uncanny how quickly the sexual urge fades when the romantic feelings arise. Even the kissing can't be sexual or "desirous" (with tongue) anymore to the utter confusion of my partners. It's almost like I want to prove that love is there, based on a belief that "if we truly loved each other then sex wouldn't have to matter." It's like I believe on some level sex makes the relationship less authentic or more prone to alterior motives, based on an anxiety that someone could be using me for "just sex"! And now it gets really deep, on another level I believe I can't truly be loved, and somehow if someone wants to have sex with me it means they love my body instead of loving me for who I really am, thus confirming that I can't truly be loved.

There's also a fear of intimacy, like if I give away my heart AND my body, I will be done for. I will have relinquished all my power and be completely vulnerable -- the end of me. 

 

There's definitely a side of me that wants to self-sabotage and keep me in a state of unloveable pain, but there's also another side of me, the side of me that is writing this post and seeking help, that ultimately loves myself and wants to see myself have healthy relationships. The thing is -- And I am grateful for this -- I do find love anyway. I know, perhaps abstractly, that I am loved (feeling it deep in my core is what I'm working on). I'm just at a point where it's like, i'm getting older, and I need to know what exactly I must accept as "who i am" and what indeed I can change -- and choose my partner(s) accordingly, and communicating my needs and expectations better. This is so tough!

On 11/27/2019 at 10:30 AM, Sexual Ally said:

while avoiding putting yrself or anyone else in heartbreaking situations by avoiding relationships that would have you repeat your pattern & make promises you can't keep at this time. 

I certainly want to avoid causing this pain to others if I can, but I also can't withhold myself from relationships completely--writing this makes me realize how important it is to be radically honest 
 

[Ringmaster04]

A lot of heterosexual marriages and relationships go this way. It starts with dating and sex that leads to a loving relationship where the sex starts fading long-term so one of the parties starts looking for other sexual partners. The difference may be in the feelings that lead to this transition. Some people do it because it creates a thrill, others from boredom, and some, potentially like you, because they are in love with the person and either 1) doesn't want to cheapen the relationship with sex, 2) sees sex as a barrier to a relationship that is no longer necessary once overcome, or 3) simply loses sexual attraction for a person once they become a relationship partner. 

 

All valid feelings and all worth acting on so long as you're being considerate of your partner(s) thoughts and needs, like you said "radically honest". You're not taking advantage of anyone if they're aware of all of the facts when they say 'yes'.