an idea...

[ac.r]

I've made probably all of about 3 posts here in my introductory thread, and until now that's it. I still lurk, browse occasionally, but I haven't really felt the need to post. But there's been a sort of theory that I've been thinking through and working out recently. I can't apply it to anyone else but it seems to work fairly well on myself.

I feel that humans are flexible creatures who can adapt to essentially any sort of sexual configuration. I don't think that people are born hard-wired to do things any one way. I feel that, from my naive perspective, a sexual preference is just that, a preference.

I tend to be a very picky eater. I won't eat corn, peas, sweet potatos, or many other foods. Asparagus is out of the question. I've eaten all my cereal dry since age 5. I consider my choice of sexuality to be much the same way. It's there, it's a trait that I may not have the power to change, but it's got little relevance in terms of the big picture- it has nothing to do with who I am, what I believe, or anything else.

So if that's true, why do people place so much emphasis on sexuality? Why polarize things to the point where it's "us vs. them"? I realize that sex is a large part of many peoples' lives, at least larger than eating food, but it's certainly not dominant to the point where it should overshadow other things and generally be considered as part of who you are. Why does anyone care when it shouldn't matter?

I feel like people should just...shut up about the whole thing. Yeah, pumpkin pie is gross but I don't really need to stick it in everybody's faces and let the whole world know. I consider such things largely irrelevant. Maybe it's something that can come up in a conversation but I really can't comprehend why anyone would get so wound up about it because I really don't think it means anything.

So yell at me, tell me I'm wrong, I'm terribly naive and there's a good chance that I'm mistaken about all of this. I do, however, perceive that there aren't a lot of "crusader" types here. So maybe someone will agree.

[Guest]

My basic opinion is that in a perfect world, there would be no need for "crusaders" and everyone would be quiet. But this is not the case. For example, let's say you're a homosexual male living with a life partner. One day at the water cooler, the boss says to you "How's the wife?" What do you do? Make up an imaginary wife? Say you're not married? Tell him the truth, and hope your workplace is liberal enough to accept that? Sit in stony silence? You see, in a perfect world, this dilemma wouldn't even be happening. You'd tell the boss the truth, he'd shrug, and reword the question every time he needed to make small talk. But the fact that people still need to worry about how they answer questions like that shows that we aren't ready for everyone to be silent.

[davelwhite]

<rambling on-- sorry, I can't seem to write anything short>

I second inanechild's opinion. There was a time in my life where I didn't worry about sexuality-- I just hung out with the people I cared about (my closest nonsexual friends), and lived with one of them and followed another one to a faraway city so we could be together, and we would all sit around and talk about how when we were older we could still have holidays together and help each other with raising kids and maybe live in a big house together. But people not only didn't choose to do those things with me, they didn't choose to do them with anybody else either. They put sexuality and its associated customs (marriage, "domestic partnership," etc.-- sexuality doesn't exist in a vacuum) at the center of their lives, so I had to think about it too.

I remember the exact day I realized I had to worry about sexuality even if I didn't want to-- talking to a friend who was leaving town to be with his girlfriend. People had been doing a whole lot of that lately, and they didn't come back to visit their old friends like I did when I moved, so I asked him why sexual relationships had such primacy over one's friends, work, and other aspects of life that you give up or distance yourself from when you leave town. He thought I was "obsessed with sex" for even bringing up the question. Of course, after he moved to Portland, his relationship went sour (the girlfriend wanted to control his friendships and make him the sole breadwinner even though he was a musician, because "that's what men do"-- sexuality doesn't exist in a vacuum, it's tied to stuff like this). He moved in with friends again, developed a great ecologically-based communal household with a gorgeous garden, toolshed constructed out of only recycled materials, built up a lot of contacts in his music career (and all of this stuff is stuff that's really important to him), and abandoned all of that again when he met a new romantic partner who wanted to live in New York.

Nowadays, he is more willing to listen to what I have to say. He acknowledges there is something strange about this societal primacy for romance, but he's still up there in New York, rebuilding his whole life in order to be with his (second) one true love.

I have another casual friend who talks of true love. Her lover used to be a close friend until they "took it to the next level" as she might say, and now she wants to move; of course he's going to follow her. When she talks of friendship-- and she isn't talking about me, she's talking about friends of hers she's known for years-- she talks about how busy she is and how she doesn't have much time to talk to friends, and then segues quite brilliantly into a discussion about how she spent the previous evening at home with her partner playing "The Sims" on her computer for five hours. She tells me that I will stop worrying about the way people distance themselves from old friends after I find my "true love."

What if this guy, her boyfriend, had already had a girlfriend when she had her crush on him? Or what if by chance she hadn't met HIM, but HAD met a WOMAN with identical personality and interests? Well, we all know that in either of these situations, she wouldn't be talking about her "true love" for this person, and she wouldn't be planning to move to Colorado with him (or her), and she wouldn't be going on frequent trips with him. On the contrary, she would be talking about how she was "too busy" to see him for weeks or months on end, how "you can't expect too much from a friendship," and then moving on to discuss how she spent the last night playing "The Sims" for five hours with somebody else.

You know this. I know this. We are forbidden, however, to point this out, and the very people who create this stark hierarchy of sexual vs. nonsexual relationships in their lives will scream that you are "obsessed with sex" if you point it out. What I'm actually obsessed with is why some people have to have such a stark hierarchy of gendered/sexual relationships over everything else, even while denying that gender or sexuality have anything to do with it-- and how I can find people who aren't like that. Even if I was more sexual, I would want people whose love was less fickle than that. I have found some already, and many of them are "sexual" themselves, so I don't buy this sexual/asexual divide. The thing that matters to me is, are they committed to all the people they're close to or just the ones who, due to chance circumstances of life, have become "lovers"?

Dave

<rambling off>

[Cate Perfect]

Uh...what he said *points to Dave and all of his perfectly valid points*

*Holds up lighter* Right on, Dave, right on!

Cate

[davelwhite]

PS: What's so great about being quiet anyhow? Some other people have posted similar ideas on AVEN, about how we shouldn't talk about it, and they don't seem to say WHY quietness is so important. It seems they think that activism is unseemly or rude, somehow: we should all leave the talking to somebody else. Who? "Experts" in psychology? Our bosses or teachers? In respect to sexuality, they don't seem to criticize those mainstream folks who have ostentatious $10,000 parties to celebrate their sexuality (aka weddings), only those who post to little-known message boards.

Another way to try to keep people "quiet," as mentioned in other threads, has been to say "look, asexual people don't face nearly as many problems as [insert group here]." Hey, I would be perfectly willing to admit that, say, African-Americans, face more problems than any of the sexual minorities-- our racist criminal justice system, for example, is turning into something like the new version of Jim Crow, while letting white drug users off scot-free. Interestingly, though, during Civil Rights black people were really concerned about some of the same "irrelevant" or "miniscule" issues that people make fun of sexual minorities for: rules of deference and etiquette in social situations that put the minority group down; insult words like the N-word or calling old men "boy"; where you have to sit on a bus. Should they not have worried about those things, and just focused on job discrimination? Like, "you have to hire me, but after I'm there, you can call me rude names all day"?

Rudeness and arbitrary social hierarchy -- like the rude way some people treat their friends after marriage, or perpetually act like single people have no "real" relationships -- isn't the "worst problem" in the world, but why does that mean we should keep quiet about it? For me, I spend my workday at a place that fights against domestic violence-- which IS one of the more serious problems in the world, people die from it. Who are these "anti-activists" to say I'm not allowed to spend a free moment talking about some comparatively less serious social customs that I think could be improved?

When people diss activism, others invariably can say "does that mean blacks and women should have 'kept quiet' too?" and then the response is "blacks and women had it so much worse," but this hierarchy of oppressions leads to complete inactivity. You could say that African-Americans in 1950 had nothing to complain about compared with African-Americans in 1850, or compared with Jews in the Holocaust; you could say that white housewives had nothing to complain about compared with blacks, and so feminism shouldn't have happened. Because genocide exists and is "worse," blatant discrimination is OK? And then, because blatant discrimination exists, rude and dismissive behavior is OK? Should workers have not struck for the 40-hour week because "black sharecroppers had it worse" (which was undoubtedly true)? Those of you who hate activism, think about that the next time you get a day off.

Dave

[Skiddaloxx]

Wow, thank you Ac.r for mentioning this! *waves* I am that "someone who agrees"! It's really about time. We have a similar current discussion in the Welcome Area thread (my 2 cents) as well.

I agree with you because: Sex-haters are just as foolish as sex sex sex zombies. I agree on that "humans are flexible creatures" statement and that sexuality is mainly a preference. Actually I have a few theories about the whole: is it inherited or learnt? -debate. It's most likely both. And you are absolutely right: it has little to do with the human as a whole.

Ac.r wrote:

So if that's true, why do people place so much emphasis on sexuality? Why polarize things to the point where it's "us vs. them"?

I have no clue myself! Especially because it's so pointless and I can't comprehend what's the profit and the outcome supposed to be?! It's frightening that so many newbies seem to notice this anti-sexuals-attitude here straight away. Maybe it's become bigger than I realized. The thing is: by saying we are asexual we make sex much more important than it actually is. The whole asexuality label begins to crumble inside me because to me it's just not a real orientation. Orientation means: directed to something. Homosexuals, Bisexuals and Heteros have a direction that's why it's legitime to say those are orientations. But asexuality is actually just an anti-movement or something inside us that just doesn't identify with them or something that just says "No". There are thousands of sex discussions here, sex sex sexuals sex. In another thread people even invent sexual labels beginning with every letter in the alaphabet (zebrasexual, yodasexual or whatever). If the whole sex mania never expanded up to this point that it is today, I am sure this forum would have never been created. The sex craziness just showed us that we don't respond to it. Like everyone's radars are about to burst with sex signals, while our radars are still normally, quietly, frequently beeping.

To me asexuality is just a label. If someone can properly define asexuality without using the words "sex", "sexual" or "not", I might change my mind. To me asex is just: playing cards, going for walks, listening to music, surfing through the internet, looking at pretty pictures, roller skating, ice cream slurping, skateboarding, computer game playing, learning for school, doing work, lighting candles, praying, crying, laughing,.........

life.

Asexuality is non existant, because it's all the things we do on a normal day, just not sex. And everybody else does them too plus sex. So sex is nothing else than another of the zillion ingredients of life we can choose from! Ac.r, that's why I like your food analogy, because imagine 3 people:

One likes bread, the other likes soup, the third likes papayas. Like the 3 sexual orientations. And suddenly the whole world craves for bread, soup or papayas!

So what does Asexuality mean in that context? A-(without)-bread-soup-and-papaya?? Or even anti-bread-soup-and-papaya?

Or does it mean he/she likes tangerines and bubblegum?

I wish the asexual crusaders a lot of fun, cause that's what it actually is to me: a party game. And the one who shouts out loudest and to most people and stomps as many bad people as possible, wins! Asexual Crusader Quest by MB for only 20€ in every Toys R us. Get it now!

To Inanechild:

in a perfect world

Maybe it sounds a little naff, but the world is just right. (Caution! Here comes the naff part) And it's all up to you really! It's what you make out of it! Do you choose to moan or progress?

Your example is perfect: So the boss asks him how his wife is? Well the boss had NO bad intention. He just asked out of habit. So it's all up to the guy: is he strong enough to say the truth? I suppose you can blame "society" for everything. But at the end of the day you are part of "society" as well. It's up to you how you want your immediate society to be. If he says he has no wife, that would be perfeclty honest. Why add "I am gay!" ? It's none of everybody's business!! And if he does reveal it, then the boss will either be surprised, shocked or indifferent. The first two reactions are only a matter of time to dissapear sometime. If he fires him, well then it's better anyway he got out of that bad and narrowminded working area.

I hope people can encourage themselves enough to say what's on their minds. All problems rise from mis-communication.

[cijay]

I agree with "why is there so much emphasis on sexuality?" It's something I ask every day. I ask it when I watch a movie that is not a romance but somewhere in there they take a 5 minute break to screw or heavy pet. I watch that when every book/paper is slathered with who is screwing whom, how to achieve a better orgasm or enlarge your breasts/penis. So, the question of WHY there is I can't answer, it's just a fact that it's just that way. I'd be perfectly happy if they put it only where it belongs.

BUT, when I see things like that, I do think of who I am. At one point it made me feel bad until I woke up.

I do belive I'm wired to be asexual. Otherwise, I would feel sexual rushes and tame them/ignore them. I feel about sex the same way I feel about wearing high heels and stock car racing. Fine for others but I haven't the fiercest desire to find out the attraction.

I don't think asexuality should be kept quiet, I just think it should be brought up in the proper surroundings - lectures/info. sessions, books or private discussions. I don't think anything should be approached with hostility. It breeds contempt because it's viewed with, as you say a "us vs them" or "We're better than the rest" act of agression. I'm not agressive, just firm.

As for equality which is so often discussed, I'm still trying to figure out where that is overlooked. I don't know that it has any equality issues, unlike minorities or gender discrimination. Just because there are people who oppose/deny asexuality doesn't mean we're being discriminated against.

[fluffy_hime]

Right on Dave! You made excellent points and I doubt I can contribute but here goes...

I hope people can encourage themselves enough to say what's on their minds. All problems rise from mis-communication.

I disagree heartily with this. Sometimes problems arise from the ignorance or stupidity of people. You can communicate with them till the cows come home and it won't make a bit of difference.

And I disagree with the statement that there seems to be a lot of anti-sex sentiment here. There are few anti-sex people here, and don't those that are have just as much a right to be that as you have a right to say what you say?

Anyway...I'd like to say to Ac.r, Skidda, and like minds, I hope you find what you're looking for. If you feel the whole thing is irrelevant and feel asexuality is an issue that doesn't need addressing, kudos to you! Some of us still enjoy talking to like minds and getting support. Support is never irrelevant, whether for an inane topic or not.

I hope this debate doesn't cause a schism at AVEN! Those who think asexuality warrants talking about and those that don't...but I guess it wouldn't really be a problem, since those that think it doesn't need to be talked about know where the door is!

I'd like to know what AVENguy says about all this...he's very active in queer politics, he founded this place...I'm sure he'd have something to say about just being quiet, minding our own business, and ignoring sexuality. As someone else said, in a perfect world we wouldn't even have to discuss sexual orientations. But there it is.

[JKReagan99]

I hope this debate doesn't cause a schism at AVEN! Those who think asexuality warrants talking about and those that don't

I second that, and I also support having the debate, though we are still part of one community.

Concerning talking about asexuality and increasing visability, I am very much in support of it. Activism does help to create social change, and I am not happy with where we are today in terms of civil rights for everyone, though we have made progress, we just aren't there yet. I see being quiet one of the worst things that a group could do, as it prevents others from identifying with it, and also prevents people from understanding what a group really is like and what it is not like.

About your theory of people being able to adapt to any sexual configuration: I also believe that biology doesn't have as much to do with sexuality as some people think it does, and that other factors do play a large role. I also believe that that doesn't make it a choice. With food, like you said, you just like certain foods, but don't like others, you don't *choose* what you like. I think that humans can't adapt to be something that they aren't though, without really pushing themselves to do something against their nature (you can eat foods you don't like, but that doesn't make you like them). I also think that almost all people are not 100% anything, so some adaptation can occur for almost everyone, they just are tapping into a non-dominent trait.

I do believe, though, that biology might have some role in sexuality, just as it does have with food. Your body sorta tells you to like/want something when you are in need of certain compounds found in foods to avoid deficiencies.

[Skiddaloxx]

*is stuck in a "running-against-a-wall"-loop*

Fluffy Hime, please tell me where and when and what/how we talk about A-sexuality?!?! Most of what we do in that context is talk about how we don't want sex, or someone hears/reads about a sex story and we talk about how we don't understand it, or how people would wanna do that, or how sex and love are seperated but it's about sex at the end of the day. It's usually like this: Newbies come here feeling totally overwhelmed that a group exists that doesn't see the point in fucking. They are excited and relieved because they have always felt that way too. That's actually all the asexuality thing there is. The rest is just: How to cope with your life among sexuals in a so called sexual world! Sex sex sex sex.I feel I still haven't got across my point as I wanted it:

Example: If all people on earth are brown-eyed, except for a handful of people who are blue-eyed...so they are bit different, not like the rest....but do you think it makes sense if they call themselves "not-brown-eyed" instead of "blue-eyed"? Analogy: Not-brown-eyed=without brown eyes=asexual=without sex (drive). Ok then why should not everybody tailor themselves a social suit of all the things they do not do? So here we have a not-toast-eating, not-smoking, not-newspaper-reading, not-yoga-practicing, not-gameboy-playing, not-blue-socks-wearing, not-bank-clerk. Okay. But what does this person do??

And who the fuck said we should not talk about asexuality?!?!?! Who said that?! I said in another thread that I don't like activism. Maybe I have a clichéd view on what activism is. For me it's this: loud people on a parade, with banners and in rainbow colours who think that a demonstration will make them accepted, and get aggrissive if they realize it won't. Shouting at people (politicians, people passing by, whoever) and sticking things in their face will never get them the things they intended to get (respect, acceptance).

"Quiet" or "Gentle" means that we should talk about it, not shout! The information AVENguy provides with his speeches, the Discovery Channel thing, this board....all those things are part of what I call a quiet revolution. It feels like flowers bursting through the snow, slowly beginning to bloom. Like things beginning to becoming obvious in the counscious.

And by "quiet" I also understand to live your life normally, telling your immediate environment (family, friends, collegues) about your disinterest in sex as honestly and openly as you can, just like you talk about cookie recipes with your grandma. There is no need to go: "YO GRANDMA!! I AM ASEXUAL AND I FUCKING HATE SEX AND IF YOU AND THE REST OF THE SEXUALS DON'T UNDERSTAND IT THEN FUCK OFF!!", when your granny has only offered you her vanilla cookies.

But yeah, some people choose to see life as a fight! "We are not living in a perfect world, that's why life is so draining and it's all because the damn sexuals created such media sex exodus, that we can't live our life happily. If only there was no sex mania, if only people would just *snip* accept me (out of the blue), if only they were not so stupid, if only they were not so ignorant, if only they were not such assholes, the world would be perfect...." At the end of the day Ignorance is some sort of fear of the unknown. And no-ones stupid from the day they were born. Stupidity is some sort of self-sabotage, if people are afraid of their thinking, they force it to stop. So in that sense: Those people are victim's victims. I am not condoning their behaviour though, but I can see why some people do some certain things. Fear has the tendency to blow itself up like a giant monsterballoon, if you keep it inside...if you don't talk about it. In that sense: all problems do rise from mis- or not-communication! The most horrible gay-bashers have been gay themselves! It goes back to a condition called "internalized homophobia" which is just the fear of the gay in yourself. Imagine if those people could have freely revealed themselves from the start? They would have never become gay-bashers!!!

PS: I know this is highly controversial, but believe me, its intention is not to offend anyone just for the sake of it. I love you people, but I need to get that out and see what you think, in order to find out about myself more.

Love,

Skiddaloxx

[cijay]

Yes! Feels like flowers bursting through snow! I love it. That's what it's like when you get here, it's the sunshine after you've thought for so long (for me it was about 30 years, which is longer than most people here have been alive) that you were the only one.

I agree with what you said about activism, perhaps it's not the actual activism I'm against but the stereotypical negavitivy that activist marches and radicals promote. I should find a new way to express that because there are tons of positive aspects to activism (it's just that - well DUH Cijay, you don't hear about them!)

I also saw on another of my posts I was very careless in the way I worded something. It's on the "Tay" post and I don't want to go back there and feed the troll, but I know most people are here, too. I said something about how we're from all walks of life and there are some of us that asexuality is the only thing we have in common. When I re-read it, it looked like I was saying "aside from Aven, I wouldn't be caught DEAD with the people on this board". I hope I'm the only one who caught it in that context. I should have said something to the extent that it illustrates that there is no steretypical asexual, we have our own opinions, stories and all that aside, we still are friends through the support AVEN offers. I hope I was the only one who caught the former version of it to sound snotty and snobbish, if anyone else did, please believe that I didn't mean it that way.

[JKReagan99]

for me *activism* is doing anything to promote a view point (not sure that's the word I want to use)... so presentations done at schools, speeches, the discovery channel and everything else done I see as beeing activism. Some people *do* go overboard with activism (I'll probably be attacked for this, but I think PETA, for example, does go over the edge a lot in their demonstrations).

As for discussing asexuality: we are not alone in wondering why people do things that we wouldn't consider. For people who identify as straight, they can't really understand the drive for people who aren't straight, same is true for people who are homosexual looking at heterosexual couples... As for discussing asexuality specifically, we do talk about relationships, and how we feel concerning them, and what we see them consisting of. For me, at least, how someone views/feels about their own relationships is a central part of their sexuality. Remember, also, that sex is not the only way people are categorized. If someone is sexual, it doesn't define the rest of them, so you can easily categorize sexual vs. asexual, and you have two destinct groups, but other than that trait, the groups may share nothing else in common. Same is true for homosexuality vs. heterosexuality, the groups are distinct, but may share nothing else in common. The problem with the blue-eyed/brown-eyed example is that there are more than one pole, so defining the absence of one, doesn't specify well. With asexuality, we compare it to sexuality, you are either one or the other (as sexuality isn't really a pole, but a whole range of levels).

Comparing this to numbers: Prime numbers are defined as not being divisable, except by one and themself, so we find them by removing all of the numbers which are divisable. Primes are just as real as composite numbers, they're just defined by a negative space. Each of these numbers may have individual traits, and they are not the same, they just all are prime, just as we all are asexual. Being defined by a negative space doesn't mean something doesn't exist.

(also doesn't want to offend anyone :? )

[cijay]

PETA is a good example (please, PETAs don't throw bricks or cow poop at us, they're a prime example of a good cause gone awry by radicals). Their interests are genuine, a lot of the chapters, however find it 'okay' to burn furriers and packing plants, earning disdain from even the most avid animal lovers (c'est moi). Not all animal activists are the same but I support smaller groups who work through education, not harm or destruction that makes them look a bit hypocritical.

I think to a certain extent some of the feminist movements have done more harm than good. They start out defending good causes, opressed women, injustices etc...then find a good solution is to re-write the bible/dictionary to avoid using the word "men" or "man" in any word, giving us grand words like "personhole cover" and "personkind". (of course the word "person" has s-o-n in it so they'll need to change it again). They can do it if it makes them feel better but it breeds contempt and why don't they spend their time doing things like...defending opressed women, injustices etc? when I bring this topic up, they call me a trader to my gender. I AM interested in women's issues...but not re-writing the damn Bible.

But I still think it's ME who needs to change the feeling in my guts when I hear the word "activism" because like you say, it's promoting awareness and there are many ways to do that.

[Live R Perfect]

all problems do rise from mis- or not-communication

YES! And I think that this is what has happened on this particular thread. It seems that you are all saying essentially the same things, but because your interpretation of various terms varies from person to person, mis-understandings have occured, and it has appeared as if you were arguing. But some good points have been raised in the process, methinks!

[Guest]

Maybe it sounds a little naff, but the world is just right.

I would agree that my life is fairly perfect. I'm a priviliged white kid. By some accident of birth, I'm living in suburbia being fed regularly instead of starving and freezing in some crumbling shack. I hardly blame society for my problems. Any complaining about sexual society ruining our lives is probably emphasized far more on this board than any of us does in real life, because this is a place we can complain and "let it all out." I mean, it's very difficult to judge tone and the like on the Internet.

But just because my life is perfect doesn't mean that everyone else's life is perfect, and it's my personal opinion that every priviliged person in this world should be working to make everyone else's life better. I could never put my hands over my ears and ignore someone else's suffering just because my life is perfect. Now Skidd, I am by no means suggesting that you are some sort of heartless person who could care less about discrimination! I agree with you that giant parades with rainbow banners are pretty annoying, as I wouldn't wear an asexual button or yell at people that I was asexual. But I wouldn't consider something like a rally to eliminate sexual discrimination in the workplace to be "crusading." There are still many many problems we need to fix - the world is still far from perfect.

EDIT: I think we are more or less on the same page, but you mean to complain about people who whine about discrimination and how "society is keeping them down" rather than do something about it?

[a-curious]

I've always eaten my cereal dry. Since before I was 2 years old anyway. Do you really know what milk is?

[ac.r]

As for the anti-activism thing, And I don't feel like there's no reason to be an activist about anything. In certain situations, such as segregation, etc. there seemed to be no other choice but to start a revolution though hardcore activism, nonviolent resistance, etc. I think we've got it a little easier because although we're it's still a fight against a heard mentality majority, it's something that a) isn't enforced by the government and B) can be changed on an individual basis. On *that* sort of level I feel like such tactics are an unnecessarily brash way to go about it when most people really don't care about asexuality anyway. But I also *don't* think that people should just keep quiet about their sexuality. People should talk about it, but by taking a different approach. I think that the best way to get a divergent group of people such as ourselves accepted and understood by mainstream society isn't to should the loudest, but to simply live your life as a shining example that one can still thrive and be happy without sex. Society won't change in an instant but with skill and luck you'll be able to influence at least some of the people around you to understand it a little better, and that's the basis of progress and societal change. I don't think that being a preachy asexual evangelist, holding asexual pride rallies, or using "aggression" tactics will have that sort of effect, though it is necessary at times when the whole of society simply refuses to acknowledge or accept such things.

I have Asperger syndrome as well and I think that things like autistic/disability advocacy should be handled along similar lines.

(And I only eat cereal dry because when I was little I used to let the grape nuts sit in milk for a good 15 minutes before eating them, it revolted me thoroughly enough to never want to try that again.)

[Skiddaloxx]

Inanechild, we are not talking about home- and foodless people in Uganda. That's a different story alltogether, and just to set the record straight I am not a heartless person. My "crusade" is to help the people in my immediate environment, my family, friends, etc.., to help themselves. Although it's still in the beginning of the blooming stage, I do notice little changes and successes. My mother is not so bitter anymore over the fact that she is a divorced lady, a woman of a generation that still believed that women need a man. She works, she lives by herself, she does aerobic teaching, and she even has a bf, but with a modern attitude and not hearing wedding bells ringing in the back.

It's beautiful to see some of my family members step by step blooming up.

And again agree with Ac.r on this:

Society won't change in an instant but with skill and luck you'll be able to influence at least some of the people around you to understand it a little better, and that's the basis of progress and societal change.

That's the trick! Begin the changes by "cleaning your own house". Because when everybody does exactly that, society changes. Why? Because we all are small parts of society, so the small parts have to change first before the big thing can change. You can preach till the moon turns pink, people might even listen, but when they go home, they continue to do the things they always do, especially when the topic has nothing to do with them.

And btw Josh....the things you list are called *education*, not activism.

[JimDandy]

Any complaining about sexual society ruining our lives is probably emphasized far more on this board than any of us does in real life, because this is a place we can complain and "let it all out." I mean, it's very difficult to judge tone and the like on the Internet.

Those are excellent points Inanechild, and a much needed bit of perspective as well. :D I mean, if this forum isn't the place where one can go to puzzle through the ins and outs of asexuality, then where is? Also, you're exactly right about the problem of judging tone and intent on the 'Net. Absent commonly agreed upon conventions, it's nearly impossible to make assumptions about other peoples writting.

Now Skidd, I am by no means suggesting that you are some sort of heartless person who could care less about discrimination! I agree with you that giant parades with rainbow banners are pretty annoying, as I wouldn't wear an asexual button or yell at people that I was asexual. But I wouldn't consider something like a rally to eliminate sexual discrimination in the workplace to be "crusading."

Personally, I can't stand parades of any stripe. Purely an emotional reaction, I know. It's probably all the noise and crowds that put me off. :x But as far as "public protest" vs "working-within-the-system" goes, it seems to me the difference is one of form, not intent. In other words; same goal, different tactics. Which form a person engages in depends on an individuals temperment, I'd suppose. If there's any substantial debate on this issue, it would be about which is more effective.

There are still many many problems we need to fix - the world is still far from perfect.

As true a statement as has ever been typed, IMOHO.

[Guest]

Oh, okay, Skidd. I just didn't quite understand what you meant by "the world is right just the way it is." Like I said, when you're talking to someone on the Internet, it's very easy to take things the wrong way, whereas if you were talking to someone in real life, you'd probably be able to figure out the context very quickly. As Homer Simpson would say, "Look at where the wonders of technology have got us today. Wonders...or blunders?"

And hey, even though we don't have sex, I think we'd all agree it's very interesting to talk about it from a different perspective! Even though we all share the distinction of being asexuals, our opinions still do widely vary. We live in a very sexually liberated society when compared to our grandparents and even parents, and everyone tends to talk about it - that's why there are so many TV and radio sex shows. And I think that's why AVEN is so successful, because you can have a sex discussion with just about anyone save for your grandmother, (:P) but to get an opinion from someone with a varied background and an orientation that isn't the mainstream just adds colour to it.

[fluffy_hime]

Fluffy Hime, please tell me where and when and what/how we talk about A-sexuality?!?!

still not following...:oops:...you mean this:

That's actually all the asexuality thing there is. The rest is just: How to cope with your life among sexuals in a so called sexual world!

...that's good right?

And btw Josh....the things you list are called *education*, not activism.

I don't think it matters what we call it. words, just words. it appears as if we all agree loud aggressive visibility is annoying.

it has appeared as if you were arguing

don't worry, livy, we're not arguing. ^_^ everyone has said they don't want to offend anyone. well i haven't, but i don't either (want to offend anyone, that is). i think this is a very respectful group.

It's on the "Tay" post and I don't want to go back there and feed the troll

just had to say lol. ^_^

[JKReagan99]

And btw Josh....the things you list are called *education*, not activism.

I don't think it matters what we call it. words, just words. it appears as if we all agree loud aggressive visibility is annoying.

I agree with fluffy, loud and aggrssive is annoying. However I still feel that what you call education is activism. On that I just looked up activism

a doctrine or practice that emphasizes direct vigorous action especially in support of or opposition to one side of a controversial issue

direct( a : to regulate the activities or course of b : to carry out the organizing, energizing, and supervising of) or vigorous(carried out forcefully and energetically) action. I'd like to think that peaceful and *quiet* presentations are forceful, and do try to help people to understand what asexuality is, and for them to accept it as being real, as well as being energetic, as well as being direct. Activism does not have to be distructive in nature.

[davelwhite]

<ramble on> (I should just put <ramble on> at the start of all my posts...)

I like this thread better now that we have started talking about tactics, rather than the generic "keep quiet" option which I had thought we were talking about before. Although I'm all in favor of "activism" in the sense of "doing stuff about situations you'd like to see changed," I agree that for any given specific situation, some tactics have advantages over others.

Skidallox said:

So here we have a not-toast-eating, not-smoking, not-newspaper-reading, not-yoga-practicing, not-gameboy-playing, not-blue-socks-wearing, not-bank-clerk. Okay. But what does this person do??

I think this is a helpful comment. I think the word "asexual" can have some uses, but when I was out developing my own independent website (www.celebratefriendship.org) before finding AVEN, by sheer coincidence I took the opposite approach from AVEN: I described what I *did* that made me different (having more affectionate and emotional friendships in the same way that many people in other countries do) instead of what I *didn't* do (sex).

Both views have their place, but I do think that focusing on the things we *do* do gives us additional options for effective tactics. After all, the friendship customs I go on about on my site aren't practiced by some small "asexual" minority over there in Brazil or Morocco or Vietnam, they're practiced by the MAJORITY. If, in addition to talking about the fact that we don't have sex, we talked about the kinds of more intense nonsexual relationships we DO want, we'd find that we already have something in common with millions of people in other countries-- and probably a lot of people in Anglo countries, too, although they are an unorganized mass so far.

Lots of "sexual" people would benefit from a culture that accepted greater affection and economic sharing among friends. One of my best straight friends already lives with her sister as well as her husband, and if her sister ever lost her health insurance, they would both benefit from a more flexible policy that allows you to choose any relative or friend to confer your benefits on. Another straight friend, when she got engaged, wanted to consider coparenting with me as well; her fiance was scared of this idea because he thought it was "weird" (it is weird in Anglo countries, but not as much elsewhere) and also the [incorrect] assumption that I must want to have sex with him. Anyhow, they could afford a child much more easily with three incomes instead of two. Many "sexual" people I know chafe at the expectation that you are only supposed to cuddle with your sexual partner, not your friends, so they would benefit too.

If you're not a living-in-a-commune-with-your-friends kind of person, consider that the sort of cultural attitudes and laws that would benefit "loner" asexual people would ALSO benefit sexual people during those times in their lives when they may prefer to live alone for a while. When sexual people decide to take some time off from dating, many of THEM don't like being pressured by nosy relatives EITHER.

So anyhow, this tactical idea focuses on talking to the MAJORITY about how we could ALL benefit from looking at relationships in a broader way, instead of [or in addition to] defining yet another minority group and special "needs" that this group has. "Early adopters" among the "sexual" people would join the movement out of self-interest instead of altruism (usually a better motivator), and as more people did it, more other people would realize it wasn't scary or weird and they would benefit from it too. There's much more opportunity for growth by educating people about both asexuality AND the stuff I mentioned, instead of just talking about "not having sex," I think. I understand the desire to bitch about "the hornies" but I think in the end "sexual" vs. "asexual" is an oversimplification of people's lives.

dave

<end rambling>

Here is a quote that more succinctly expresses my idea:

“I was struck by the idea of equating celibacy with aloneness. Perhaps because I have lived most of my life in places where this idea does not hold true, I suspect there is something related to cultural values in this equation… In a cultural context in which nuclear families and couples are seen as the most important connections and relationships, it is possible to equate celibacy with being alone. In most of the world, however, celibate individuals are not alone. They live their lives surrounded by extended family, communities, and lifelong friends.”

-- Olivia Espin, “So what is a ‘Boston marriage’ anyway” in Boston Marriages: Romantic but Asexual Relationships among Contemporary Lesbians edited by Esther Rothblum, p. 194

[fluffy_hime]

In most of the world, however, celibate individuals are not alone. They live their lives surrounded by extended family, communities, and lifelong friends.”

this would be nice!!

PS Dave, i love that part on your website where it says "Sexual intimacy is essential to mental health" and the "sexual" is crossed out!!

[Guest]

Lots of "sexual" people would benefit from a culture that accepted greater affection and economic sharing among friends. (...)

If you're not a living-in-a-commune-with-your-friends kind of person, consider that the sort of cultural attitudes and laws that would benefit "loner" asexual people would ALSO benefit sexual people during those times in their lives when they may prefer to live alone for a while. When sexual people decide to take some time off from dating, many of THEM don't like being pressured by nosy relatives EITHER.

Thank you! Our culture definitely needs to change so that non-sexual intimacy between friends is considered important, and so that not dating isn't some kind of terrible curse.

[VivreEstEsperer]

Hey...I eat my cereal dry, too. Dry cereal eaters of the world unite! I wonder if there's a support group for that.... //joking///

It's really soggy with milk:)

Kate

[Gorax]

I only read half this thread, but I'll reply to the original post.

Sometimes I do feel like just shutting up about it, and I do. I beleive in "live and let live" and people should be able to do what they want (unless it harms others, of course).

Then some random 'tard tells me how good sex is and how I HAVE to do it. The phrase "I have no sex drive and think sexual intercourse is disgusting" just goes right past them, and they don't stop pushing the issue until I say "maybe some day" just to get them off my back, but then they just try to make that day "as soon as possible"

Then I stop shutting up.

So until people grasp the concept that I do not want to fuck, I'm not shutting up.

[Syd]

And if I may add, by not shutting up, you are being a great help for those who do not know that it's perfectly ok not to have any interest in sex. There must be quite a number of asexuals who shut up just because they don't know why they don't fit into this sex-oriented society. By not shutting up, you are telling them they are not abnormal. That's a lot.

[JKReagan99]

And if I may add, by not shutting up, you are being a great help for those who do not know that it's perfectly ok not to have any interest in sex. There must be quite a number of asexuals who shut up just because they don't know why they don't fit into this sex-oriented society. By not shutting up, you are telling them they are not abnormal. That's a lot.

Yep :P On the other hand, it doesn't have to be brought into every single conversation we have, as we are more than our asexuality, every single one of us is an individual and is different in our own ways. :)

[aury]

dry cereal rocks... especially cinnamon toast crunch. *drools*

people ususally just say that because they're insecure about themselves & they feel that by harassing the shit out of someone, that they're accomplishing something. unfortunately for them, the only thing they're accomplishing is getting their asses kicked by pissed off off people who are sick of listening to their crap. :evil: