A totally unexpected gender perception upheaval

[Dawning]

I'm autistic, and like many autistic people I suffer from:

 

Alexithymia: lack of emotional awareness or, more specifically, difficulty in identifying and describing feelings and in distinguishing feelings from the bodily sensations of emotional arousal

 

How this plays out for me is that I don't realize that I'm experiencing emotion until I have a physical sensation in my body, and then I have to examine the situation to determine what that emotion might be, made even more difficult by the fact that positive and negative emotions often feel the same to me, for example excitement and anticipation feel pretty much the same as anxiety and fear. The vast majority of the time, I'm not conscious of feeling ANYTHING, although my facial expressions and body language do apparently convey emotional states to observers, so in some undefinable way I do have emotions.

 

I've been identifying in the agender universe, the details don't matter for the moment, because I have absolutely no feeling or perception of gender, and never have. That's perfectly logical for a "normal" person, but I've finally belatedly realized that for ME, and by that I mean ME, not other agender people, autistic people, or even alexithymic people, not being AWARE of any feelings of gender doesn't mean that I don't HAVE any feelings of gender! It's a good thing I was sitting down when I realized this, or I probably would've fallen to the floor.

 

Does this seem like six of one and half a dozen of the other? I think it would be, BUT... BUT... what led me to this revelation was that I had what I'll call a gendered reaction (!!!!) that I noted and recognized as such! I'm AFAB, and a few days ago, for the first time, I put on a pair of men's slacks (conservative business-type slacks, wool blend), and… I felt a strong and clear sense of RIGHTNESS, that putting this masculine garment onto a body with full curvy hips and large breasts was somehow... I have what look like glass bowls, but they actually have lids and are meant for storage, so I imagine if I'd been just using them as bowls for years, believing that they WERE bowls and nothing else, and suddenly came across the lids in the back of a cabinet, put one on a bowl, and suddenly realized that what I've had were actually containers all along, I just didn't know it! I feel like I fit a piece into place that I didn't realize was missing, and now I have a different level of completeness.

 

YIKES!!

 

And I'm SURE that it was just that these were MEN'S slacks. It wasn't the color, which is just a boring brown, or the style, which has pleats that I don't like, and they aren't flattering, not fulfilling the only criterion I've ever had for pants, that they make me look as small as possible, because the wideness of the legs combined with my protruding hips makes my legs look heavier… but the reaction was THERE, based solely on having a men's garment on my body.

 

This wasn't a desire to go running out the door wearing these slacks looking different than a woman is expected to look… not non-conformity. This wasn't a desire to create a look or a style, to appear or be perceived a certain way… not presentation. And what's left? GENDER! I think I felt a moment of actual GENDER!

 

There's more, much more, but I want to stop here at square one and see if anyone has any feedback about this… You know what I mean, USEFUL feedback, not telling me that I'm crazy or stupid or confused or whatever. Has anyone else ever felt anything like this, whether you're autistic or neurotypical? I can't tell you what it's like to be close to qualifying for a senior citizen discount without having felt the slightest inkling of gender for my entire life, and now suddenly I felt something! Am I the only one?

 

[PoeciMeta]

Alexithymic autistic here. I can't say for sure I've ever experienced that, because my emotions are even fuzzier as memories, but it sounds a bit like gender euphoria. And my big gender euphoria moment was definitely my binder. I don't remember how I felt per se, but I do remember looking at my reflection, from all angles, thinking it finally looked like MY chest. I believe it felt right, yes. 

 

I couldn't have such a moment as yours specifically, I've been wearing boys' clothes since childhood. I just thought they looked nicer and more practical and somehow got allowed to wear them, so it's natural for me and I don't see them as relevant to my hypothetical gender, just clothing (is that an agender thing?). However, I do have some underwear that is designed for AFABs, but looks somewhat in-between, and it's possible they feel more ''right'' to wear - I mean, not like I pay that much attention to that, but it's still a small something in itself, right? 

 

Honestly, I'm kind of afraid my alexithymia is hiding gender feelings. Feelings that would make me not agender. Does that make sense? I don't want to get to understand my emotions more and end up with an unwanted gender... which is a feeling in itself but still? 

[Bloc]

I got a sense or feeling of rightness when I wear a skirt for the first time and directly went out for a walk. It is difficult to describe at the same time I felt happy and powerful and that this is right and at the same time it was scary, which was mostly about how others would react.

 

I am not sure if I am autistic or just barely neurotypical. Also I don't think that I have alexithymia it is not that I don't feel emotions but they are relatively mute, expect for when I am nervous/anxious, which I mostly recognize by the symptoms in my body.

 

Regarding alexithymia, I read about that this might be a subconscious coping mechanism for gender dysphoria which reduces for some trans people with transitioning. I don't know how much of it is right, but at least it doesn't sound implausible.

[twetzel59]

1 hour ago, Dawning said:

Am I the only one?

No, you're not!

I'm an aspie and I found this very relatable.

 

1 hour ago, Dawning said:

Alexithymia: lack of emotional awareness or, more specifically, difficulty in identifying and describing feelings and in distinguishing feelings from the bodily sensations of emotional arousal

Wait, there's a difference between emotions and the feeling they cause in your body? HECK!

 

 

Of course, for me I actually understand all that math, but not what the difference is between happiness and what it's like to be happy 😕

 

 

1 hour ago, Dawning said:

I've been identifying in the agender universe, the details don't matter for the moment, because I have absolutely no feeling or perception of gender, and never have. That's perfectly logical for a "normal" person, but I've finally belatedly realized that for ME, and by that I mean ME, not other agender people, autistic people, or even alexithymic people, not being AWARE of any feelings of gender doesn't mean that I don't HAVE any feelings of gender! It's a good thing I was sitting down when I realized this, or I probably would've fallen to the floor

OMG! This sort of thing has been happening to me lately, just not quite as suddenly.

 

I feel incredibly agender. In fact, as I was sitting here in the library before logging into AVEN, I was just thinking about how gender is such a weird phenomenon.

Like, why does the sex you're born with matter at all in your daily life? Why does English have gendered pronouns when gender is irrelevant? I'm not spending my life trying to reproduce, so why do I need to care about what sex someone is assigned, and why do they dress and act differently because of it (beyond just physical fit/comfort)???

 

BUT THEN. I was reading about the transgender experience a while ago, and I realized that many of the ways I interact with others and see the word are undeniably feminine. I'm assigned male. Well, now I know why people think I'm gay, at least. Anyway, WHAT??! So, what does this mean? Should I identify as nonbinary, or am I just in the "wrong body"? I never even THOUGHT about the "gender" associated with my body until starting college and realizing people are very sure about their sexual orientation. Oops.

 

I dunno what I'm saying, but I think I feel what you're saying you know

 

1 hour ago, Dawning said:

Does this seem like six of one and half a dozen of the other? I think it would be, BUT... BUT... what led me to this revelation was that I had what I'll call a gendered reaction (!!!!) that I noted and recognized as such! I'm AFAB, and a few days ago, for the first time, I put on a pair of men's slacks (conservative business-type slacks, wool blend), and… I felt a strong and clear sense of RIGHTNESS, that putting this masculine garment onto a body with full curvy hips and large breasts was somehow...

 

and now I have a different level of completeness.

 

YIKES!!

 

No, there's a difference between feeling agender and feeling acutely aware of your gender. I'm normally in the first category, but occasionally something will happen where I'm treated in a feminine way, and it feels RIGHT.

 

Also, when I was younger, my friend used to tease me by using "she" pronouns or saying "ladies first". Most of my peers would throw a playful punch or call out "Hey! I'm no lady!" I never once objected, because, secretly, it felt good. Felt right.

 

So, funny enough, I've both had sort of a gender awakening, and found myself at least somewhat, on the "opposite side of the fence".

 

This feeling gendered thing is very new, and to be honest, it's causing me a lot of distress. I don't want the world to see me as male, but I'm not sure if i want to be female either, question mark? Maybe I do, but really I just want to be completely exempt from the whole gender fiasco.

 

How odd, though, that this rather quickly happened upon the both of us...

[twetzel59]

17 minutes ago, Bloc said:

Regarding alexithymia, I read about that this might be a subconscious coping mechanism for gender dysphoria which reduces for some trans people with transitioning. I don't know how much of it is right, but at least it doesn't sound implausible.

Sounds very... understandable, actually.

[PoeciMeta]

1 hour ago, twetzel59 said:

 

No, there's a difference between feeling agender and feeling acutely aware of your gender.

Yes. I'm not sure if I got what you meant all right, but I made a distinction a while ago, that feelings OF gender and feelings ABOUT gender can be very different. I think of myself as agender, and I'm mostly sure I don't experience any ''gender'' feeling, but I do have some kind of feeling about being gendered. That feeling being: I want none of that garbage. And pain when said ''garbage'' is applied to me. So I guess it can be possible to have gender euphoria, be it a relief from dysphoria or not, without having a gender. 

[Anthracite_Impreza]

I started off thinking I was agender because, I think, I was still too terrified of being trans (abusive, non accepting home and all that) to allow those feelings out. Over time though, being seen as male, wearing only "male" clothes and deodorant, using male pronouns online etc... yeah, it feels right. It's actually comfortable. Being called son, mate and lad make me feel at ease; they don't jar at me like feminine ones, which feel somewhere between being shot and dragged against a giant cheese grater. Although I'd always known I "wanted to be a boy", actually being called "he" is such a fucking rush I can no longer deny I'm mostly (or all) binary trans-male.

 

4 hours ago, PoeciMeta said:

Honestly, I'm kind of afraid my alexithymia is hiding gender feelings. Feelings that would make me not agender. Does that make sense? I don't want to get to understand my emotions more and end up with an unwanted gender... which is a feeling in itself but still?

Gender isn't like sexual or romantic urges, it's just a feeling, a way of being in the world. There's nothing to be frightened of (personally, I don't know how trans-friendly your family is) if you turn out trans-binary.

[DuranDuranfan]

When I put on my binder for the first time, I felt this sense of peace. That’s when I figured out that I’m non binary. And I want my body to reflect it. Now if only my hips would shrink....

[PoeciMeta]

15 hours ago, Anthracite_Impreza said:

Gender isn't like sexual or romantic urges, it's just a feeling, a way of being in the world. There's nothing to be frightened of (personally, I don't know how trans-friendly your family is) if you turn out trans-binary.

I hope so... but still... 

However, in my own internalised transphobia, I never saw being agender or just nb as less ''bad'', or at least badly viewed, than binary trans - it would be ''worse'', if anything. I mean, not only it was trans, but it was a gender that doesn't exist in cis version (of course I didn't think of intersex, I thought they couldn't be trans, since they could ''choose'' - and gods was I envious). So I don't think I am in your previous situation. But still. 

I guess that's just the usual doubt... 

Love the cheese grater analogy, btw. At least I'm not female, I know that much. 

[Janus the Fox]

Same though male Agender transfem, I come to a determination as this as almost exactly described.  It’s more difficult to determine an emotional response at all.  I wear women’s clothing and feel at ease.

 

For being aroace and autistic, perhaps it’s similar.  There’s no emotional response, no attractions, no desire, total indifference to romance and sex with a long term partner, yet performing those don’t produce desire or attractions later on, or a longing for the SO.  Performing also don’t produce a negative reaction or avoidance where those with an emotional attachment might do things differently.  The sensory processes are difficult enough as autistic. 

[Dawning]

On 11/20/2019 at 11:50 AM, PoeciMeta said:

Alexithymic autistic here. I can't say for sure I've ever experienced that, because my emotions are even fuzzier as memories, but it sounds a bit like gender euphoria. And my big gender euphoria moment was definitely my binder. I don't remember how I felt per se, but I do remember looking at my reflection, from all angles, thinking it finally looked like MY chest. I believe it felt right, yes. 

 

I couldn't have such a moment as yours specifically, I've been wearing boys' clothes since childhood. I just thought they looked nicer and more practical and somehow got allowed to wear them, so it's natural for me and I don't see them as relevant to my hypothetical gender, just clothing (is that an agender thing?). However, I do have some underwear that is designed for AFABs, but looks somewhat in-between, and it's possible they feel more ''right'' to wear - I mean, not like I pay that much attention to that, but it's still a small something in itself, right? 

 

Honestly, I'm kind of afraid my alexithymia is hiding gender feelings. Feelings that would make me not agender. Does that make sense? I don't want to get to understand my emotions more and end up with an unwanted gender... which is a feeling in itself but still? 

My emotions are fuzzier as memories too! I might remember that I felt a sensation of some sort in my stomach, or my chest, but I couldn't really tell you what it was exactly.

 

Your binder was something that you had purchased, from a desire to bind your chest, with the understanding that it would either probably or definitely make you feel better about your appearance, right? That's an awesome thing! You had some expectation and anticipation, or whatever our equivalent is, of positive "feelings" when you put it on? Imagine if instead you'd been over at a friend's house, and they had a binder that they encouraged you to try, and you put it on not expecting anything, and all of a sudden you were blindsided by that feeling that you had… I think that would be pretty close to what I experienced!

 

Clothing for males tends to be more practical, and better made; look inside a man's jacket or slacks, and the female equivalent, and see the radical difference in construction, or compare sweaters and see how men's are designed to provide warmth while women's are designed for fashion. I think that wearing whatever fits and works and that we like regardless of what department it came from is much more common in the agender universe;  I'm not built to wear men's stuff, and my preferences for colors and patterns don't have much overlap with the men's department... which is probably why my revelation was so long in coming. The only reason this even happened is that these slacks were a short-lived style of big balloony hip and butt and upper-thigh; with classic cuts, I'd have to wear a huge size to accommodate that area of my body, and I'd look like a child in dress-up clothes.

 

I think people like us need to really pay attention to what feels good or right, better or best, in the area of things that are designed separately for the genders, in the same way we notice certain sensations in our bodies and use them to interpret our emotional state; that's the closest we'll come to knowing what we've actually got going on inside our brains.

 

I totally understand having believed yourself to be in a certain area of gender your whole life, even if we didn't have terminology for it until recently, and then fearing that what you "really are" is something totally different; gender, or lack thereof, is a major part of our sense of self! Nobody wants their identity to suddenly be changed; even people who truly believe that they want to be self-aware and really know themselves aren't wanting to discover that they're very different than they have always believed. I don't think you need to worry, though, since I'm sure you've had to wear clothes from the women's or girls' department at some point, so you already know that that didn't feel right. I guess you do need to avoid trying on a packer or facial hair, since if they had that feeling of rightness to you, that could signal the possibility of some amount of maleness, but other than that, I don't think it's possible for you to be blindsided the way I was. Just keep on being you!

[Anthracite_Impreza]

On 11/21/2019 at 4:04 PM, PoeciMeta said:

I hope so... but still... 

However, in my own internalised transphobia, I never saw being agender or just nb as less ''bad'', or at least badly viewed, than binary trans - it would be ''worse'', if anything. I mean, not only it was trans, but it was a gender that doesn't exist in cis version (of course I didn't think of intersex, I thought they couldn't be trans, since they could ''choose'' - and gods was I envious). So I don't think I am in your previous situation. But still. 

I guess that's just the usual doubt... 

Love the cheese grater analogy, btw. At least I'm not female, I know that much. 

I've only just remembered this...

 

I also know, for a fact, I'm not female, always have done. It's the one certainty I have in life, no matter how many times people tried to insist, convince or threaten me otherwise. I KNOW I'm not female. Am I still somewhat enby? Maybe, I don't really know. Some days I feel nothing, some days a little male and other days full on male (and I even end up walking with a teenage lad swagger. Yeah, I know). I think that's probably normal for cis-males too; I doubt many feel uber-male all the time. But I dunno, hence why my gender is currently "on the male side".

 

But you know if anything ever changes you can always PM me.

[PoeciMeta]

14 hours ago, Dawning said:

My emotions are fuzzier as memories too! I might remember that I felt a sensation of some sort in my stomach, or my chest, but I couldn't really tell you what it was exactly.

 Haha, I don't remember much either, I think I was grinning the whole time I was admiring my chest... it's weird, I just know it was good somehow. And I've been wearing it all day every day ever since, so ^^ yeah, that's what I prefer. 

 

Quote

Your binder was something that you had purchased, from a desire to bind your chest, with the understanding that it would either probably or definitely make you feel better about your appearance, right? That's an awesome thing! You had some expectation and anticipation, or whatever our equivalent is, of positive "feelings" when you put it on? Imagine if instead you'd been over at a friend's house, and they had a binder that they encouraged you to try, and you put it on not expecting anything, and all of a sudden you were blindsided by that feeling that you had… I think that would be pretty close to what I experienced!

Oh, yes. So terribly yes. I've been anticipating buying one. I was so impatient to finally get a real thing that would flatten me properly. Weighing the pros and cons since finding out about them, selecting the exact one I wanted, insisting to get my own credit card earlier than I should have... my decision was pretty much taken at least 6 months before actually daring to do it. And when I got the thing, I went to try it on immediately, and, well, see above~

 

Quote

Clothing for males tends to be more practical, and better made; look inside a man's jacket or slacks, and the female equivalent, and see the radical difference in construction, or compare sweaters and see how men's are designed to provide warmth while women's are designed for fashion. I think that wearing whatever fits and works and that we like regardless of what department it came from is much more common in the agender universe;  I'm not built to wear men's stuff, and my preferences for colors and patterns don't have much overlap with the men's department... which is probably why my revelation was so long in coming. The only reason this even happened is that these slacks were a short-lived style of big balloony hip and butt and upper-thigh; with classic cuts, I'd have to wear a huge size to accommodate that area of my body, and I'd look like a child in dress-up clothes.

This is part of why I wear a lot of guys clothes, yes... I need them to be functional and really sturdy ^^' I don't mind girl-marketed clothes that don't look overly feminine, but I have very little of them. And I need to hide my curves, too. The more neutral-looking the better.

 

Quote

I think people like us need to really pay attention to what feels good or right, better or best, in the area of things that are designed separately for the genders, in the same way we notice certain sensations in our bodies and use them to interpret our emotional state; that's the closest we'll come to knowing what we've actually got going on inside our brains.

 

I totally understand having believed yourself to be in a certain area of gender your whole life, even if we didn't have terminology for it until recently, and then fearing that what you "really are" is something totally different; gender, or lack thereof, is a major part of our sense of self! Nobody wants their identity to suddenly be changed; even people who truly believe that they want to be self-aware and really know themselves aren't wanting to discover that they're very different than they have always believed. I don't think you need to worry, though, since I'm sure you've had to wear clothes from the women's or girls' department at some point, so you already know that that didn't feel right. I guess you do need to avoid trying on a packer or facial hair, since if they had that feeling of rightness to you, that could signal the possibility of some amount of maleness, but other than that, I don't think it's possible for you to be blindsided the way I was. Just keep on being you!

Yeah, that's true... it's hard to decipher most of the time, but I do have some strong indicators. I refused more and more feminine clothes when growing up, but never saw the appeal in packing, facial hair or calling myself a boy... unlike binding, packing was actually the last thing on my mind. I suppose I naturally act in a non-gendered way, and don't know what would be a gendered way, in fact... I could explore male stuff and it didn't feel as right as binding did. So yeah, I hope you're right ^^ 

 

13 hours ago, Anthracite_Impreza said:

I've only just remembered this...

 

I also know, for a fact, I'm not female, always have done. It's the one certainty I have in life, no matter how many times people tried to insist, convince or threaten me otherwise. I KNOW I'm not female. Am I still somewhat enby? Maybe, I don't really know. Some days I feel nothing, some days a little male and other days full on male (and I even end up walking with a teenage lad swagger. Yeah, I know). I think that's probably normal for cis-males too; I doubt many feel uber-male all the time. But I dunno, hence why my gender is currently "on the male side".

 

But you know if anything ever changes you can always PM me.

Ugh, the doubt. It never leaves, heh? 

I let myself be convinced I was female. As much as I knew how I loathed my female body, and daydreaming of a sexless self since childhood... I thought I couldn't and didn't want to be a guy. So I had to be cis, right... >.> Having male parts would disgust me and I don't even want to think about it. I sound pretty emotional about it for someone who's supposed to be alexithymic, but... I'm not, really... I don't know. I'm tempted to think ''nope'' now, but I keep doubting. How annoying. And somehow I really wish I could know for sure that I can ditch all the gender things, and be without gender whatsoever. I want that, dunno why, but I'm sure I do. 

Thanks a lot for the offer... I'm shy with PMs, you know... but thanks ^^'

[Dawning]

On 11/20/2019 at 12:46 PM, Bloc said:

I got a sense or feeling of rightness when I wear a skirt for the first time and directly went out for a walk. It is difficult to describe at the same time I felt happy and powerful and that this is right and at the same time it was scary, which was mostly about how others would react.

 

I am not sure if I am autistic or just barely neurotypical. Also I don't think that I have alexithymia it is not that I don't feel emotions but they are relatively mute, expect for when I am nervous/anxious, which I mostly recognize by the symptoms in my body.

 

Regarding alexithymia, I read about that this might be a subconscious coping mechanism for gender dysphoria which reduces for some trans people with transitioning. I don't know how much of it is right, but at least it doesn't sound implausible.

I'm a little bit luckier there, because nobody would much notice a woman walking around in anything but the most stereotypically masculine clothes, and even then probably wouldn't care as long as she had hair down to the middle of her back like I do… and that idea bothers me, that if I decided to cut my hair off, suddenly wearing men's clothes would go from being a little subversive in kind of a cute way to very subversive in a potentially problematic way… why does hair matter so much to everyone?

 

It's really interesting that you felt powerful, because women are generally seen as less powerful than men; why do you think that was? I DIDN'T feel powerful, I never even thought about it until I read your comment, but I have a limited emotional range, so maybe that's not too surprising. Maybe it would be different if I was intending to try to actually pass as a man? I think I might have too little of an awareness of gender for it to make a difference, but who knows at this point?

 

Recognizing that you're feeling emotions by sensations in your body is pretty much the definition of alexithymia, so you might want to look into it a little bit more. It's a pretty significant scrambling of the brain, so I tend to think that it couldn't just suddenly start happening as a coping mechanism; I guess we won't know for sure until they find a way to test directly for it.

[Bloc]

5 hours ago, Dawning said:

 

It's really interesting that you felt powerful, because women are generally seen as less powerful than men; why do you think that was?

I don't see women as less capable than man. They are often not given the same power though. I think I felt powerful because I was expressing myself regardless of society's pressures and facing the fear stemming from these pressures. Doing something you want and which feels right for you despite fearing it can be really empowering.

 

I hate the talk of the "weaker sex" which is mostly used to keep women back. Yes the average woman is physically weaker than the average man, but the distribution is so broad that you can't really any reasonable assumption for individuals from that.

[Dawning]

Hopefully we all agree that no gender is more or less capable than any other, but unfortunately not all genders have equal wealth, authority, influence, or even physical strength... things that are collectively seen as power. In I think every culture, men are still solidly ahead in these areas, which is one of the issues that complicates life for people whose genders don't match what we were assigned at birth.

 

Overcoming fear and being your true self in the face of obstacles is definitely a reason to feel powerful… and proud! Good for you! And I think it counts as power in a more objective way, too, because if other people's opinions have control over you, that gives them a sort of power over you, and if you're able to ignore those opinions, that takes away their power over you and gives it back to you.

 

If I were to go out in public in masculine-looking stuff, and that's certainly a possibility, if people were giving me attitude, and I ignored it and kept doing what I wanted to do… I hope I'll feel powerful too!

[Lonemathsytoothbrushthief]

On 11/27/2019 at 8:27 AM, Bloc said:

I don't see women as less capable than man. They are often not given the same power though. I think I felt powerful because I was expressing myself regardless of society's pressures and facing the fear stemming from these pressures. Doing something you want and which feels right for you despite fearing it can be really empowering.

 

I hate the talk of the "weaker sex" which is mostly used to keep women back. Yes the average woman is physically weaker than the average man, but the distribution is so broad that you can't really any reasonable assumption for individuals from that.

I specifically hate it because it makes it difficult to participate in sports(obviously on all ends of the trans community) and for what reason? I would argue that we'd see much more equal distributions between men women and non binary people in sports if assigned gender didn't have such a heavy impact on the amount of encouragement or discouragement someone grows up with in sports. When I went to martial arts, boxing etc, yes the cis girls were generally not given equal treatment, but also they started at much later ages. Were recommended different types of exercise and diets from day 1. So OF COURSE we see gendered differences in sports ability.

 

To be honest it's exactly the same with disability in sports. Remember when people were outraged by oscar pistorius participating against able bodied athletes in the olympics and started claiming his blades had some sort of advantage? Apart from the tragedies which followed I think it's an interesting moment in time, my disability politics informed views would be that disabled athletes competing on an equal basis with able athletes happens so rarely because it shifts the balance of power in the world, from the current one in which just the presence of a happy disabled person in public is enough to outrage able people. In that sort of society it's incredibly unlikely for a disabled athlete to arrive on a level playing field but it's still possible because despite what able people want to believe, disabled people are not inherently less capable of achieving things than able people. So yeah I think it's basically the same situation for gender in sports - who knows what would be accomplished in a world where women are encouraged to take up space, own their accomplishments, and pursue their interests after being encouraged to consider anything and everything as a possible career regardless of its association with men.

 

This is why I don't accept it when people list off "biological advantages". Those are large demographics we're talking about, which are raised in dramatically different manners. I don't want to maintain a world where a marginal difference in strength or speed based on genetic and hormonal factors is used to justify WIDENING that difference until it's a vast difference for amateurs, purely because they've been discouraged by inflated claims of men.

[anisotrophic]

I’m deeply appreciative of the role of socialization, but I’ve become much stronger on just a handful of months with testosterone. I get into interesting conversations with guys who’ve tried T illicitly for an entirely different reason: muscles. I am literally taking steroids. After years of wanting to be stronger, it feels like I punched a cheat code.

 

My partner didn’t appreciate the difference in strength until I told him to arm wrestle me. (This was years ago. I was frustrated with how much physical labor he was expecting me to do, like carrying heavy things instead of offering.) He thought I was faking my lack of strength. I was not.

 

I think it’s important for people with male physiology to appreciate their strength is real and not really “earned” or a socially constructed exaggeration. It is not. It’s an unearned privilege you shouldn’t pretend doesn’t exist. Even a trained female athlete can’t reach the grip strength of most untrained males. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/17186303/

 

This is why trans women in male sports will have a lot of trouble competing (T suppression will make them weaker), and the situation reverses for trans men. At the same time, I’d be unsure if/when physiology reaches an equivalence to cis. It can be a frustrating reality, but I think it’s a disservice to dispute the real strength differences between male and female physiology.

 

We live in a world where physical strength matters less and less. It doesn’t speak to other capabilities. But are women generally, substantially, literally physically weaker in terms of strength? Yes, they are.
 

Women put up with a lot, physically. Periods, pregnancy, childbirth — I’ve been through all of these. It may make them more emotionally prepared to endure things. I don’t really know. I’m glad I did them, but I won’t miss it.

[Dawning]

On 11/20/2019 at 1:01 PM, twetzel59 said:

No, you're not!

I'm an aspie and I found this very relatable.

 

Wait, there's a difference between emotions and the feeling they cause in your body? HECK!

 

 

Of course, for me I actually understand all that math, but not what the difference is between happiness and what it's like to be happy 😕

 

 

OMG! This sort of thing has been happening to me lately, just not quite as suddenly.

 

I feel incredibly agender. In fact, as I was sitting here in the library before logging into AVEN, I was just thinking about how gender is such a weird phenomenon.

Like, why does the sex you're born with matter at all in your daily life? Why does English have gendered pronouns when gender is irrelevant? I'm not spending my life trying to reproduce, so why do I need to care about what sex someone is assigned, and why do they dress and act differently because of it (beyond just physical fit/comfort)???

 

BUT THEN. I was reading about the transgender experience a while ago, and I realized that many of the ways I interact with others and see the word are undeniably feminine. I'm assigned male. Well, now I know why people think I'm gay, at least. Anyway, WHAT??! So, what does this mean? Should I identify as nonbinary, or am I just in the "wrong body"? I never even THOUGHT about the "gender" associated with my body until starting college and realizing people are very sure about their sexual orientation. Oops.

 

I dunno what I'm saying, but I think I feel what you're saying you know

 

 

No, there's a difference between feeling agender and feeling acutely aware of your gender. I'm normally in the first category, but occasionally something will happen where I'm treated in a feminine way, and it feels RIGHT.

 

Also, when I was younger, my friend used to tease me by using "she" pronouns or saying "ladies first". Most of my peers would throw a playful punch or call out "Hey! I'm no lady!" I never once objected, because, secretly, it felt good. Felt right.

 

So, funny enough, I've both had sort of a gender awakening, and found myself at least somewhat, on the "opposite side of the fence".

 

This feeling gendered thing is very new, and to be honest, it's causing me a lot of distress. I don't want the world to see me as male, but I'm not sure if i want to be female either, question mark? Maybe I do, but really I just want to be completely exempt from the whole gender fiasco.

 

How odd, though, that this rather quickly happened upon the both of us...

 

I'm glad to know that some people relate!

 

Yes, astonishingly enough, the feelings in our bodies are not actually emotions in themselves, they are a side effect of emotions, and people can have emotions without any particular feeling in their bodies accompanying it! I was as blown away as you were when I learned this!  Welcome to alexithymia, LOL!

 

Happiness is a noun, and happy is an adjective, but they mean basically the same thing. I think what you meant to say is that you don't know what it's like to FEEL happy, which I don't know either… In my case, it can just feel like a notable lack of stress. I always feel a certain amount of clenching in my body, which I interpret as stress. This weekend, I was at a gift exchange, one of the ones where people steal the gifts, and the statistical likelihood of my getting one of the few gifts that wasn't awful was maybe 10%, so I felt more clenched… but when the exchange ended, I miraculously had a good gift, and for a few minutes I WASN'T clenched… which I interpreted as happiness.

 

I think that traditionally gender was made an issue of in large part because the rights and privileges of the 2 binary genders were very different, so it was crucial to know what gender a person was, to determine what they were allowed to do.

 

You should identify as whatever you want to identify as, and it doesn't have to be male or female! You do know that gender and orientation are very different, though, right? You may still be gathering data to determine your gender, but you already know what your orientation is; It's whatever kind of person you're attracted to, if any. Terms like homosexual or heteroromantic don't really make sense if you don't have a binary gender, but you can use things like andro- and gyno- to describe whatever attractions you feel. You don't have to accept any privileges related to gender, participate in gender-specific activities, or anything else that doesn't feel right to you! Be who you are!