Openly Gay Characters in Star Trek Discovery

[Calligraphette_Coe]

Well, it only took 50 years, but better late than never, I guess. I was pleasantly surprised after buying the new box set that they didn't kill off the gay characters in season 2. Hope that doesn't need a Spolier Alert! But I won't go into details without a Spoiler Alert.

[Jarle]

I don't know what browser etc. you might be using, but you can put in a spoiler by selecting the little eye next to the quote button. 

 

Spoiler

Looks like this!

 

I know the characters you're talking about, and I love how being gay isn't their defining feature. That kind of representation is awesome!

[gisiebob]

I...eh...ah...look, this is going to sound like a tangent but I have...trouble expressing myself outside of metaphor...yeah

 

ok, so have you seen Bladerunner 2049? mostly great movie, but that's not what I'm talking about. in one scene though, showing all these overbearing holographic advertisements, a whole building boasts the iconography of atari, you know the three lines converging? and you can today buy a little atari emulators and other things that say atari on them. but Atari? it's dead. the people who made it what it was are gone. retired, passed away, working on other things. what made atari doesn't exist anymore. that company, that owns that atari brand? is there anything that gives them ownership over what they are other than the laws that describe how we buy and sell ideas? is there any reason to keep that image alive other than to cash in on someone else's legacy? if that discovery thing didn't say startrek in front of it, would it be any lesser? I haven't seen the show myself. I...don't let me yuck your yum. I hope you've alls had enjoyable experiences from what's out there

[Red Ivy]

That's so awesome! I love the old Star Trek series(es), but they did lack that kind of diversity. I have yet to watch the new ones, but I'd really like to when I get the time.

[Calligraphette_Coe]

2 hours ago, Jarle said:

I don't know what browser etc. you might be using, but you can put in a spoiler by selecting the little eye next to the quote button. 

 

  Reveal hidden contents

Looks like this!

 

I know the characters you're talking about, and I love how being gay isn't their defining feature. That kind of representation is awesome!

Usually some version of Chrome, either on a Chromebook or the latest Linux distro I'm playing with. Funny thing, tho, I look at that as being a 'TMI' marker thingy-- a way of saying/warning "There be dragons here". But I guess when you think about it, a spoiler alert for media is kind of like that. 

 

About 20 years ago, I made someone whom I considered a friend online mad at me for giving the slightest of hints about a movie. Then when she found out I was trans, I never heard from here again. Maybe that's why I look at it as TMI?

 

In following some of the boards about Star Trek Discovery,  I noticed a fair amount of haters who just couldn't resist making the gay characters an issue. They said things like "I'll never watch it again, I'm disgusted with the constant indoctrination the liberal media jams down our throats."

 

Where I work, you don't discuss the newer Star Wars or things like Discovery. It's a very misogynistic culture and they loathe the strong women tropes in the newer sci-fi sets of series. Which is kind of ironic, in that over 75% of the people working there are women. But they'll say having strong women characters makes the sci-fi more unbelievable-- as if 1 guy with a hand weapon can defeat whole galactic armies. I sometimes think they look back at the good ole days when women were chattel. And it seems even more ironical that some of these guys are incels.

 

Too bad they don't read-- I'd do something really evil like taking a manual on Fortnite and putting a romance novel cover over the outside, heeeheheheehe....

[Calligraphette_Coe]

55 minutes ago, gisiebob said:

I...eh...ah...look, this is going to sound like a tangent but I have...trouble expressing myself outside of metaphor...yeah

 

ok, so have you seen Bladerunner 2049? mostly great movie, but that's not what I'm talking about. in one scene though, showing all these overbearing holographic advertisements, a whole building boasts the iconography of atari, you know the three lines converging? and you can today buy a little atari emulators and other things that say atari on them. but Atari? it's dead. the people who made it what it was are gone. retired, passed away, working on other things. what made atari doesn't exist anymore. that company, that owns that atari brand? is there anything that gives them ownership over what they are other than the laws that describe how we buy and sell ideas? is there any reason to keep that image alive other than to cash in on someone else's legacy? if that discovery thing didn't say startrek in front of it, would it be any lesser? I haven't seen the show myself. I...don't let me yuck your yum. I hope you've alls had enjoyable experiences from what's out there

Actually, Nolan Bushnell is still around. So is Steve Wozniak, who got his start at Atari, which was his day job in the early days of Apple.

 

Too, I never did automatically like every Star Trek thing that came out. I couldn't get to like Star Trek:Enterprise, and really didn't care for Star Trek: Deep Space Nine. I didn't think I'd like Star Trek:Discovery, either. But it's quite a departure from the normal Star Trek fare. None of the women characters wear skimpy costumes, for one things. And one of the female engineers is quite the curmudgeon.

 

 

 

[Bloc]

2 hours ago, Calligraphette_Coe said:

. And one of the female engineers is quite the curmudgeon.

 

Who?

Spoiler

Jett Reno? I like her being a no nonsense butch.

 

[Calligraphette_Coe]

2 hours ago, Bloc said:

Who?

Yep, her. And that was the other thing-- the gay character was played by a gay actor.

[Bloc]

A thing I am a bit mad about is

Spoiler

that they used that Imperator Philippa Georgiou is bi only to paint her in a more negative light in the finale of season 1, when she took both male and female sex slaves.

 

[Janus the Fox]

It’s come a long way considering way back a mixed race kiss was controversial.  Have to wait to see if the storylines are alright for me.

[Jarle]

12 hours ago, Calligraphette_Coe said:

In following some of the boards about Star Trek Discovery,  I noticed a fair amount of haters who just couldn't resist making the gay characters an issue. They said things like "I'll never watch it again, I'm disgusted with the constant indoctrination the liberal media jams down our throats."

 

Where I work, you don't discuss the newer Star Wars or things like Discovery. It's a very misogynistic culture and they loathe the strong women tropes in the newer sci-fi sets of series. Which is kind of ironic, in that over 75% of the people working there are women. But they'll say having strong women characters makes the sci-fi more unbelievable-- as if 1 guy with a hand weapon can defeat whole galactic armies. I sometimes think they look back at the good ole days when women were chattel. And it seems even more ironical that some of these guys are incels.

I used to be an avid fan of Star Wars, but the latest films are ruining it for me. I certainly don't have an issue with strong female characters, and the old expanded universe was full of them - Jaina Solo, Mirax Terrick, Mirta Gev just to name a few - and in the current climate I feel like there's the risk of any argument involving gender to turn bad, but here's what I think. 

 

Firstly, Rey isn't a great character. I don't know why she joined the Resistance, she doesn't seem to struggle or fail at all, and I'm not sure if she has any significant relationship with any other protagonist. I think she's very much a Mary Sue-type character, which isn't the best way to write characters of any gender. 

 

Secondly, the sequel trilogy completely undoes any victory attained at the end of Return of the Jedi. Overthrow the Empire? They're back. Build a New Republic or Jedi Order? Barely worth a mention. Hell, even the relationship between Han and Leia is gone, and there's no intimacy except for a few hugs. If you have to use a pre-existing story as a base to take characters in new directions and expand the universe, you don't start by burning that base to the ground. Never mind that if they want it to be a coherent and compete saga, they have to somehow deliver a lasting victory that completely eclipses what happens at the end of Return of the Jedi. 

 

Third and final point, I don't like being told directly what to think. Maybe I'm more perceptive these days when it comes to movies, but I remember the Last Jedi in particular being quite preachy. If you want to show good triumphing over evil or how values like diversity, teamwork and hope make people stronger than when they suffer under totalitarian regimes, great! Perfectly fine with that being part of the story. It's when you explicitly state that instead of showing it through action that you're gonna lose a lot of people's attention. We're there for a sci-fi adventure, not a political treatise. 

 

I don't mean to derail from the thread, so if you tell strongly enough to reply to me feel free to PM me (unless it's in the spirit of the wider thread, of course). Having greater diversity in your cast can be a great thing, but when you do it poorly you're ultimately gonna cause more harm than good. 

[Calligraphette_Coe]

1 hour ago, Jarle said:

 

Secondly, the sequel trilogy completely undoes any victory attained at the end of Return of the Jedi. Overthrow the Empire? They're back. Build a New Republic or Jedi Order? Barely worth a mention. Hell, even the relationship between Han and Leia is gone, and there's no intimacy except for a few hugs. If you have to use a pre-existing story as a base to take characters in new directions and expand the universe, you don't start by burning that base to the ground. Never mind that if they want it to be a coherent and compete saga, they have to somehow deliver a lasting victory that completely eclipses what happens at the end of Return of the Jedi. 

 

Third and final point, I don't like being told directly what to think. Maybe I'm more perceptive these days when it comes to movies, but I remember the Last Jedi in particular being quite preachy. If you want to show good triumphing over evil or how values like diversity, teamwork and hope make people stronger than when they suffer under totalitarian regimes, great! Perfectly fine with that being part of the story. It's when you explicitly state that instead of showing it through action that you're gonna lose a lot of people's attention. We're there for a sci-fi adventure, not a political treatise. 

To tell the truth, I haven't seen The Last Jedi nor Rougue One. The Force Awakens left me feeling nostalgic for the original series which, as you say, was kind of derailed by the Middle Trilogy. IDK, they stopped telling a good story and relied on CG and action to carry the day. I know that Whiz Bang space battles appeal to lots of people, but it's almost like John Wick Chapter 78 when they go on forever and the backstory becomes just more weapons porn.

 

I guess I'm too big a fan of hard sci-fi. Not that that too doesn't get ruined sometimes by political theater. Case in point the novels of Larry Niven. For me, he started to go downhill and lost me when he got more political. But you can't just have all this happen in a political vacuum-- in the original Blade Runner, the dystopian politics were an integral part of the story-- which could be why Blade Runner 2049 felt a little too mediocre.

 

I think Star Trek Discovery helped fill a void of originality that was starting to develop. So much of what made Star Trek great were the morality plays and when I was that Brian Fuller was back as part of the show runner team, I had a better feeling about Star Trek returning to its roots. And JMHO, taking the risk of having openly gay characters was just like the first interracial kiss in ST:TOS. It was unheard of at the time, and it paved a way for life to imitate art.

[Bloc]

SciFi has always been political. Have a look at Arthur C. Clarke or Isaac Asimov for example or Jules Verne. Also the original Star Wars trilogy is highly political or would you describe the fight of a terrorist force (Rebels) supported by religious extremists (Jedi) against a fascist state (Empire) which is lead again by religious extremists (Sith) as apolitical? Also Heinlein the author of Starship Troopers was Libertarian and anti-communist, which shows when you read his books, while authors like Isaac Asimov had a more liberal agenda.

 

The SciFi adventure was never apolitical. Maybe you agree with the politics pushed by a SciFi story and don't recognize it as such or you disagree and then you see the politics pushed.