"Girly" is condescending

[SweetTart]

I don't think the word "girly" itself is condescending, but I think how so many activities and media viewed as female oriented are called "girly" is. There is no such thing as "boy-y". If something is male oriented then it is "manly", using a term that indicates a grown person. "Girly" associates with something childish and flippant.

I mean separating activities and media by gender is ridiculous and insulting anyways, and I think society is getting better at that, but we definitely still have divides and condescension. It's okay to have more "feminine" and "masculine" things, but they shouldn't make people feel insulted or insecure for liking them.

As someone who is female and likes pastel colors, cartoons and animation, and generally cute things, I feel insulted when they're called "girly". I guess to me it just seems condescending. Like people are dismissing and belittling my interests, and acting as though the reason I like them is because of my gender? Even though in reality it just has to do with my own tastes and personality, and those things can be liked by anyone regardless of gender.

Sorry this may seem a bit rant-y, I just had a friend refer to a lot of things typically seen as female oriented/targeted as girly and it bugged me.

Thoughts? Does anyone think similarly about the term "girly" and gendering activities in general?

[Philip027]

Making a big deal out over the exact terminology used is pretty girly if you ask me.

 

I do see the other half of your point and agree that gender roles are pretty garbage, though.

[Grimalkin]

You know what's funny? I read a definition of "patriarchy" that really stuck with me, and I can't seem to find it again. We all know patriarchy is a system where men hold most of the power, yadda yadda, but the one I had read said something like "Patriarchy describes a society where the interests of men are prized more highly than those of women."

 

And I remember thinking, wow, yeah. "Interests" is a broad term there that could mean a lot more things than just hobbies, etc., but think about it. Anything women historically have had an interest in is somehow... lesser. Less intelligent, less reasonable, less practical, less fun. A lot of girls go through a tomboy phase because they don't want to be seen as "lesser." I'm cool, not like other girls. Because "girl things" aren't of worth. 

 

So yeah, girly is something of an insult. "You X like a girl!" is another. "You're such a pussy" is for weak men. The insinuation is that women are worse at the things that "matter"-- MEN things-- or too caught up in the things that don't matter, "womanly" things. 

 

It's why girls can wear pants but men can't wear skirts (and furthering this, it's why "gender neutral" clothing is still more masculine than feminine, because even a little feminine is too feminine for guys). 

 

And it's frustrating. It's frustrating for women who want to be held in the same automatic respect as men but feel like they have to denounce all classically "feminine" interests to do so, and it's frustrating for men who are interested in anything "feminine" and are taunted for it. 

 

So I get where you're coming from. But there's no easy answer for it. We as a society just need to keep pushing forward the idea that all interests and skills are for everybody, and that none of them make you less of a worthwhile person (or pretty cool... for a girl).

[Janus the Fox]

Yeah gendering things bugs me a bit, ehh it’s often with toys, advertising, clothing... often panders to the stereotypes as a priority.

 

girly/womanly/lady like and boyish/manly/big boys I hear often in the media, it’s a culture dependent thing and it feels rather exclusive for me as non-gendered.

[Rynn]

21 minutes ago, SweetTart said:

There is no such thing as "boy-y".

This! Yes! So much this! I have been using the word boy-y actually, because it should be a word.

 

But yeah, there is still some latent misogyny in everyday language. "You throw like a girl." "Man up!" "Don't be such a pussy!" (Grimalkin ninja'd me on this one as I had already typed this bit, but then started replying to someone in a different thread haha. I'm still leaving it in though, not deleting it.)

 

Another definition of feminism is fighting for femininity to be seen as equal to masculinity, not lesser or weaker. So that's instead of the usual definition fighting for women to be equal to men. Women can be masculine, men can be feminine. Those gender expressions should be equal.

[PoeciMeta]

Oooh yes. It's so frustrating to want to dress neutrally and only find oneself with masculine clothes. I'd elaborate, and wow there are so many things to say, but I'm in need of sleep and thus probably shouldn't post, you never know what absurdities this might result in. 

[iyote]

11 minutes ago, Laurann said:

This! Yes! So much this! I have been using the word boy-y actually, because it should be a word.

I think the word is "boyish."  Definitely not used as much as "girly" though.  

[Rynn]

1 minute ago, iyote said:

I think the word is "boyish." 

It's not a direct equivalent. 'Boyish' is used for tomboys, not for boys. It's not a word with a negative connotation with masculinity. It's never used as an insult to masculinity.

[Mostly Peaceful Ryan]

3 minutes ago, iyote said:

I think the word is "boyish."  Definitely not used as much as "girly" though.  

Could that be because manly sounds better than boyish, while girly sounds less awkward than Womanly? I can see why some would not like the word girly depending on the usage of the word. I just wonder if the mass usage of these words has more to do with Womanly and boyish sounding very awkward, than majority of people being misogynist.  Sure there are some that uses girly in a misogynist way, but the large number of people using it I think is due to not having better alternatives that aren't awkward sounding.

[Philip027]

Also I couldn't help but be reminded of this scene from The Sandlot.

 

 

[Calligraphette_Coe]

29 minutes ago, Grimalkin said:

 

So yeah, girly is something of an insult. "You X like a girl!" is another. "You're such a pussy" is for weak men. The insinuation is that women are worse at the things that "matter"-- MEN things-- or too caught up in the things that don't matter, "womanly" things. 

I remember growing up how much crap I took for playing the piano, being a great typist, and even doing art. 

 

What's funny is that where I work, the fastest and most accurate assembler is a woman. She puts together these really complicated medical lab machines and I calibrate them. None of the men working there seem able to do the work because they don't seem to want to develop the fine motor skills it takes to do the work.

 

Most of the older men working there can't touch type, and to my annoyance, I often have to type things up for them as if i was their secretary. I often have to proofread their stuff because their grammar and spelling are atrocious as are their writing skills.

 

 

29 minutes ago, Grimalkin said:

 

It's why girls can wear pants but men can't wear skirts (and furthering this, it's why "gender neutral" clothing is still more masculine than feminine, because even a little feminine is too feminine for guys). 

 

And it's frustrating. It's frustrating for women who want to be held in the same automatic respect as men but feel like they have to denounce all classically "feminine" interests to do so, and it's frustrating for men who are interested in anything "feminine" and are taunted for it. 

I'm very androgynous looking and I have often worn things from the other side of the store. But you always have to hide the cap sleeves and scoop necklines. That and you have to hope that people don't realize the top buttons on the 'wrong side' if it came from the woman's department. 

 

I was shopping yesterday and, as usual, everything in the men's department is always the same color- plaid. Ick. Boring. 

 

I'm not wild about skirts, especially if i'm not trying to pass. Around here it gets and stays cold for a big portion of the year, so they're chilly and I'm not wild about the modesty factor for some of them.

 

Maybe when I can leave my working life next year and don't have to worry about being outed, I can wear things that I like more than the plain things I'm stuck with now. I did find out that tweezing and arching my eyebrows and having long blonde hair most gets you a look of disapproval, but I haven't been mugged in the parking lot of them lately.

 

I read part of book yesterday on gender that made the observation that older boys who cry get ignored. Just like older girls who express anger or are too bossy.

 

I'm pretty much a loner because I get the feeling that a lof of  people my age don't want to be seen with a gender variatn person. Oh well......

[acematt]

Just be yourself. Yeah I get sick and tired of the whole male/female thing. You're supposed to act this way or that way. Screw it. That is why I am definitely a unisex gender-bending type of individual. Blend the sexes together as much as possible. Of course there are differences but keep them as minimal as possible. The more alike people are the better. Too much of a contrast is a bad thing in my honest opinion. 

[iyote]

18 minutes ago, Laurann said:

It's not a direct equivalent. 'Boyish' is used for tomboys, not for boys. It's not a word with a negative connotation with masculinity. It's never used as an insult to masculinity.

I didn't mean to imply "boyish" was used the same as "girly"; it just has the same denotation but for boys.  I was just pointing out the word because "boy-y" is clunky and you wanted a word that means "boy-like."  I don't think there is a equivalent word for infantilizing masculinity, if that was what you were looking for.  

Boyish isn't just for tomboys either; it's also used for men (usually to emphasize the youth aspect, though, because "manly" is used to emphasize masculinity).  

[abandoned-account]

This is more or less related, but it sort of reminds me of how I wish to see more positive representation of older women in media. I get tired of the common trope that male characters can be a variety of ages and still be considered cool, but the females are the same very young (usually teens/20s) conventionally "attractive" stereotype. I want to see more intelligent, wise, and badass middle-aged and elderly women too!

 

(I also would like to see younger female characters that aren't sterotypically feminine and/or sexualized, but that's a different discussion I guess.)

 

2 hours ago, acematt said:

Just be yourself. Yeah I get sick and tired of the whole male/female thing. You're supposed to act this way or that way. Screw it. That is why I am definitely a unisex gender-bending type of individual. Blend the sexes together as much as possible. Of course there are differences but keep them as minimal as possible. The more alike people are the better. Too much of a contrast is a bad thing in my honest opinion. 

I like what you're saying about being one's self and all, but about that last bit, I think diversity in our kind is a good thing that should be accepted. However, the diversity in people should be seen in each individual and not in big groups, especially based on aspects they can't even control such as sex/gender, skin color, disabilities, etc.
If we were all exactly the same though, it'd be pretty boring.

[anisotrophic]

1 hour ago, Veezle said:

younger female characters that aren't sterotypically feminine and/or sexualized

Total tangent, or maybe not, but the she-ra reboot (on Netflix) kinda rocks for a variety of female body types and personalities. NPCs tend to be female too. I get the feeling many episodes would fail a reversed Bechdel test.

[Ringmaster04]

Totally agree with most of everything here. "Girly" and "manly" are almost interchangeable with "bad" and "good" in this society. And of course, anything remotely feminine from a guy is instant evidence of their orientation. My interests align much more with those traditionally masculine: sports, weight lifting, outdoorsy stuff, video games, politics, heavy metal, action movies, etc (I'm not saying that those are exclusively masculine, but that is unfortunately a stereotype I see everyday) and because of that, when I came out to my mom, her first reaction was "well you don't look or act gay"...to which I replied "you mean, I don't dress or act like a girl" and she nodded. 

 

We focus a lot on labels on these message boards because most of us understand how useful they can be, but when labels become stereotypes, they become destructive. 

[abandoned-account]

4 hours ago, anisotrophic said:

Total tangent, or maybe not, but the she-ra reboot (on Netflix) kinda rocks for a variety of female body types and personalities. NPCs tend to be female too. I get the feeling many episodes would fail a reversed Bechdel test.

I admit, I've been living under a rock with most media (especially outside of video games) in the past few years. That sounds cool though, might check it out.

[PoeciMeta]

10 hours ago, Veezle said:

I like what you're saying about being one's self and all, but about that last bit, I think diversity in our kind is a good thing that should be accepted. However, the diversity in people should be seen in each individual and not in big groups, especially based on aspects they can't even control such as sex/gender, skin color, disabilities, etc.

If we were all exactly the same though, it'd be pretty boring.

Yes. Long live variety, but don't let it be conditioned by gender. 

 

9 hours ago, Ringmaster04 said:

Totally agree with most of everything here. "Girly" and "manly" are almost interchangeable with "bad" and "good" in this society. And of course, anything remotely feminine from a guy is instant evidence of their orientation. My interests align much more with those traditionally masculine: sports, weight lifting, outdoorsy stuff, video games, politics, heavy metal, action movies, etc (I'm not saying that those are exclusively masculine, but that is unfortunately a stereotype I see everyday) and because of that, when I came out to my mom, her first reaction was "well you don't look or act gay"...to which I replied "you mean, I don't dress or act like a girl" and she nodded. 

 

We focus a lot on labels on these message boards because most of us understand how useful they can be, but when labels become stereotypes, they become destructive. 

The stereotype of gay men being effeminate is a total mystery to me. Maybe some of them allow themselves more freedom with their tastes, including ''feminine'' ones? In that case, I'd say it's a good thing for them... but that stereotype sounds counterintuitive to me... either way, stereotypes are always harmful when taken seriously. 

[Janus the Fox]

19 hours ago, Laurann said:

It's not a direct equivalent. 'Boyish' is used for tomboys, not for boys. It's not a word with a negative connotation with masculinity. It's never used as an insult to masculinity.

I’m sure I’ve heard it as an insult towards men in some way before, unless I’m remembering insults used like that in movies related to army training camps something like that.

[Rynn]

13 minutes ago, Janus DarkFox said:

I’m sure I’ve heard it as an insult towards men in some way before, unless I’m remembering insults used like that in movies related to army training camps something like that.

Oh really? Okay, well I stand corrected