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Understanding Gender and Gender Identity


Kasseb

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This post is NOT to be a debate, rather, I'm looking to be educated on the ideology – yes, it's an ideology as it's a collection of views/beliefs – that many of you have to better understand it. I can't find myself agreeing with certian terms of notions that I can't fully grasp. So, logically, I can't agree or disagree completely. 

 

Here's my current stance, please do not entice an argument about if I'm right or wrong, just provide me with information as to why you accept what you accept with logic and reason. I don't want this to turn into a shit show like my last gender thread on my book.

 

  • Gender refers to a binary; male and female.
  • Sex refers strictly to a binary and only a binary exists via current scientific knowledge and evidence.
  • A binary exists.
  • You can't make up a new gender, unless there is scientific evidence supporting the gender. 

If you can contrive a new gender or lack thereof, agender, pangender, sapiogender, demi-gender, etc, what is the basis of this and thus, what is gender to you? For me, I'm defining gender based on the OED (Oxford English Dictionary/Learners Dictionary). How can you be without a gender? What does that mean? 

 

Any information would help me better understand this notion.

 

How do you define gender? How do you differentiate gender and gender identity? 

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18 minutes ago, Autumn McJavabean said:

 

  • Sex refers strictly to a binary and only a binary exists via current scientific knowledge and evidence.

intersex says hi

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1 minute ago, pook said:

intersex says hi

That's fine and all, I disagree for multitude of reasons that intersex is even a sex in-of-itself, but what about the topic I presented?

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Just now, Moony's Boy Child said:

Frankly I don't care what your views are.

This isn't about my views, I'm just stating what they are so people know where I'm coming from. The purpose of the thread is to educate me on these terms in a way that's concrete. 

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Galactic Turtle
26 minutes ago, Autumn McJavabean said:

Gender refers to a binary; male and female.

I think the current general liberal consensus on gender as that it is a thing that exists separately from biological sex and that there exists an infinite amount of genders because it is based how an individual feels and perceives themselves amongst other people.

 

26 minutes ago, Autumn McJavabean said:

Sex refers strictly to a binary and only a binary exists via current scientific knowledge and evidence.

Generally speaking there is male/female but because there is variety in nature, every now and then you've got something irregular happening either on the chromosome level or the physical sex characteristics level. People can be born all sorts of different ways like without one hand or with a row of extra teeth. Typically these are adjusted medically if it's easy or that's just the norm for that particular person. I was born with quite a few extra teeth which resulted in the worst few visits to the dentist in my entire life.

 

26 minutes ago, Autumn McJavabean said:

A binary exists.

Sure.... but there will always be outliers because of nature.

 

26 minutes ago, Autumn McJavabean said:

You can't make up a new gender, unless there is scientific evidence supporting the gender. 

Seems like the current liberal consensus is that gender has little to no scientific basis which is why it is possible for there to be an infinite amount of genders. It's just about feelings. I'm pretty sure dysphoria specifically is a mental condition and the best way to deal with severe forms of it is to modify the body so that dysphoria decreases and doesn't hinder one's life.

 

26 minutes ago, Autumn McJavabean said:

If you can contrive a new gender or lack thereof, agender, pangender, sapiogender, demi-gender, etc, what is the basis of this and thus, what is gender to you? For me, I'm defining gender based on the OED (Oxford English Dictionary/Learners Dictionary). How can you be without a gender? What does that mean? 

Again, from what I hear, gender is just about one's own feelings. For my purposes I typically only use gender in the context of something like "gender roles" in various cultures and time periods.

 

26 minutes ago, Autumn McJavabean said:

How do you define gender? How do you differentiate gender and gender identity? 

Up until a few years ago I thought gender was synonymous with sex. I think the language has evolved to have these words denote separate things. Like ideas about gender will most likely change over time but with sex you're just dealing with the raw materials. 

 

 

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Sex is the biological. Even though it is a binary, there exists those outside of it. We call them intersex. 

 

Gender is the social construct around sex, but is about how we think and feel rather than how we biologically are created. Gender is not assigned by chromosomes, primary sexual characteristics, or secondary sexual characteristics. Gender is only shown through gender expression, an optional and personal way to present ourselves. Gender only exists in our minds. Gender expression is how our actions, dress, behavior, etc. show and present our gender to society. 

 

Gender is a combination of thoughts, feelings, attitudes, etc. that make us up. I identify as demi-girl, so I align myself with the gender that is considered "woman, female, girl, chick, etc" as I see it represented around me. However, I do not feel as society defines women should feel and thus choose not to align myself with "girl" but rather "demi-girl". I feel more comfortable presenting myself as something between "man" and "woman", but not to the extent that I do not still identify with the label "woman" as much as I do. 

 

Other genders I see are a combination of or lack of the "binary gender" roles society used to believe in so rigidly. So bigender, genderfluz, queergender, etc. are all combinations of "man" and "woman", and there's also agender which is lack of either sense of being a "man" or a "woman". One can determine their gender by looking inside themselves and comparing what they feel to how they see others act, behave, feel, etc. So if you do not feel like how you feel inside connects with "man" or "woman", then the result would be neither, and thus agender. 

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Janus the Fox

Personally... I can't personally define it solidly, it is non-binary without direction.  I put it in 3 'camps', the actual sex and whether it needs a change, the 'expression' where i physically attempt to look like and a 'feeling on the inside' hence being male bodied, genital config for which i've was born with a mild Intersex condition, which wanting also a change, hence trans and feminine expressing, clothing to attempt looking female to achieve a neutral look.  That's the identity that I can own for myself, and changes more when understanding myself better.

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1 minute ago, SithGirl said:

Sex is the biological. Even though it is a binary, there exists those outside of it. We call them intersex. 

 

Gender is the social construct around sex, but is about how we think and feel rather than how we biologically are created. Gender is not assigned by chromosomes, primary sexual characteristics, or secondary sexual characteristics. Gender is only shown through gender expression, an optional and personal way to present ourselves. Gender only exists in our minds. Gender expression is how our actions, dress, behavior, etc. show and present our gender to society. 

 

Gender is a combination of thoughts, feelings, attitudes, etc. that make us up. I identify as demi-girl, so I align myself with the gender that is considered "woman, female, girl, chick, etc" as I see it represented around me. However, I do not feel as society defines women should feel and thus choose not to align myself with "girl" but rather "demi-girl". I feel more comfortable presenting myself as something between "man" and "woman", but not to the extent that I do not still identify with the label "woman" as much as I do. 

 

Other genders I see are a combination of or lack of the "binary gender" roles society used to believe in so rigidly. So bigender, genderfluz, queergender, etc. are all combinations of "man" and "woman", and there's also agender which is lack of either sense of being a "man" or a "woman". One can determine their gender by looking inside themselves and comparing what they feel to how they see others act, behave, feel, etc. So if you do not feel like how you feel inside connects with "man" or "woman", then the result would be neither, and thus agender. 

Interesting statement. This helps a lot, thank you. 

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Anthracite_Impreza
34 minutes ago, Autumn McJavabean said:

just provide me with information as to why you accept what you accept with logic and reason

We're talking about gender, a non-physical set of thoughts that no one will ever be able to explain. There is no test, or "logic", involved; everyone - cis, trans-binary and non-binary - just are who they are and feel what they feel. Why is it so hard to just accept you have no idea what other people feel and just accept they know their gender (or lack therof) best?

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Just now, Anthracite_Impreza said:

We're talking about gender, a non-physical set of thoughts that no one will ever be able to explain. There is no test, or "logic", involved; everyone - cis, trans-binary and non-binary - just are who they are and feel what they feel. Why is it so hard to just accept you have no idea what other people feel and just accept they know their gender (or lack therof) best?

I'm not claiming to know what other people feel, I'm defining what gender is by definition and thus, logically, the other genders can not exist. Whether that's valid or not is up for debate between you, the others and myself. But that's not the purpose of the thread. 

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Just as an additional note, there's a Bill Nye Saves the World episode on this. I don't remember it too well, though I remember it not being awful.

Like how if you're well versed on the topic, you'll be annoyed with how simple or overly-general it is, but it's useful for those who don't really understand to get a decent grasp of the idea. It's not a Gender Studies class or anything, it's just a more entertaining way to learn about the topic. 

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I was going to answer but @Galactic Turtle said most of what I wanted to say, in better words if anything.

 

I want to add however, that gender is (in my opinion) a social construct. A particular gender (either man or woman) will have a certain set of characteristics and social roles, and people will relate to that gender. You don't need ALL attributes of said gender to be recognized as being part of it, but you need some amount. "Tomboyish" girls for example, is something you'd say of a female (sex) who exhibits traditionally man (gender) characteristics. 

As people begin to realize we don't have to be confined to X gender depending on who they are, and putting more importance on self-expression, they may find that either man or woman is too limiting, or worse, too hindering for their self-expression. Therefore they choose to "make up" a gender (no negative connotation here, that's how genders are made in the first place, even man & woman) that more closely matches them. There is also the agender/genderless option, where you just don't want to be associated with any of that, and also walk your own path with minimum labels (any agender people are more than welcome to correct me here, I'm going off of what I know, but it not my experience and I don't want to speak for you).

To be honest, I identify as a man because it's more convenient for me, but I absolutely admire anyone shedding their assigned gender to better express themselves, and if I was more courageous maybe I'd do it myself.

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2 minutes ago, Autumn McJavabean said:

I'm not claiming to know what other people feel, I'm defining what gender is by definition and thus, logically, the other genders can not exist. Whether that's valid or not is up for debate between you, the others and myself. But that's not the purpose of the thread. 

what does that even mean

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Galactic Turtle

*whispers* Hi @DryRain, I'm in Oshawa right now for work and I really hate how it's already so cold up here. Please make it stop.

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Just now, Galactic Turtle said:

*whispers* Hi @DryRain, I'm in Oshawa right now for work and I really hate how it's already so cold up here. Please make it stop.

Yeah winter is coming quite early and fast, the snow caught me by surprise last week. Cover up! 

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Anthracite_Impreza
1 minute ago, Autumn McJavabean said:

I'm defining what gender is by definition and thus, logically, the other genders can not exist.

Then the definition you're using is wrong, because those genders do exist. What you're basically doing is saying a binturong doesn't exist because it's not in the dictionary you're using. Well, the people of south-east Asia would like to correct you on that, and by dismissing them you're showing you don't trust them to know what they're on about in their own country.

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3 minutes ago, Autumn McJavabean said:

I'm not claiming to know what other people feel, I'm defining what gender is by definition and thus, logically, the other genders can not exist. Whether that's valid or not is up for debate between you, the others and myself. But that's not the purpose of the thread. 

I would like to point out that other definitions exist, and thus you cannot be so restrictive of your qualifications or else you'd never have a clear idea of what gender is.

 

Here's an example of what I mean by Merriam-Webster: 

"1a : a subclass within a grammatical class (such as noun, pronoun, adjective, or verb) of a language that is partly arbitrary but also partly based on distinguishable characteristics (such as shape, social rank, manner of existence, or sex) and that determines agreement with and selection of other words or grammatical forms

b : membership of a word or a grammatical form in such a subclass

c : an inflectional form (see inflection sense 3a) showing membership in such a subclass

2a : sex sense 1a

b : the behavioral, cultural, or psychological traits typically associated with one sex

c : gender identity"

 

You should note that's all very confusing, but it also explains:

"Later in the century, gender also came to have application in two closely related compound terms: gender identity refers to a person's internal sense of being male, female, some combination of male and female, or neither male nor female; gender expression refers to the physical and behavioral manifestations of one's gender identity. By the end of the century gender by itself was being used as a synonym of gender identity. Among those who study gender and sexuality, a clear delineation between sex and gender is typically prescribed, with sex as the preferred term for biological forms, and gender limited to its meanings involving behavioral, cultural, and psychological traits. In this dichotomy, the terms male and female relate only to biological forms (sex), while the terms masculine/masculinity, feminine/femininity, woman/girl, and man/boy relate only to psychological and sociocultural traits (gender)."

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12 minutes ago, Autumn McJavabean said:

I'm not claiming to know what other people feel, I'm defining what gender is by definition and thus, logically, the other genders can not exist. Whether that's valid or not is up for debate between you, the others and myself. But that's not the purpose of the thread. 

I'm sorry to keep spamming you, but this is about gender and linguistics and I love those topics, so my brain can get a little crazy when I think about it.

 

But, explaining the word around the definition and thus restricting it to such a meaning is quite prescriptivist thinking. That a word can only mean what the dictionary says it means and only words in the dictionary count as words. And that's just not how language works.

A much better take is the descriptivist route, that we see how a word is used and give it a meaning based on its usage, knowing full well that usage may vary from region to region and may change with time.

 

An example would be "pissed" which can mean drunk or angry depending on where you are. Or else the word "gay" which used to mean happy, but now is almost universally used to mean homosexual and only very old texts use it for its original meaning. 

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16 minutes ago, Moonman said:

If identifying as something other than male or female makes people feel more comfortable and at one with themselves, why is it more important to stay in line with reason, as in science and language, rather than passion, as in people's feelings and ideas?

Scientifically, there's proof that "male" and "female" neurological traits often overlap in the same person, and that intersex variations are actually relatively common (1-2% of all humans).  So there's no scientific reason to dismiss non-traditional gender identities.

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One important aspect of gender that hasn't been mentioned yet on this thread is that the expected roles and behaviors for men and women vary wildly from culture to culture.  For example, sex and romance between men was seen as perfectly masculine in ancient Greece, but is stereotyped as unmanly in the modern West.  Some societies even have traditions of a third gender, like hijras in India, or sworn virgins in traditional Albanian culture.  So all of this adds another layer of complexity to the question.

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1 hour ago, Autumn McJavabean said:

You can't make up a new gender, unless there is scientific evidence supporting the gender. 

What do you mean 'make up a new gender' and 'scientific evidence supporting the gender'?

 

If I may be allowed to put on my Cultural Anthropology hat... gender is a cultural construct.

Therefore there need not be any scientific evidence to support a gender, rather if a culture sees certain people as belonging to a gender outside of the standard male-female, then they are that gender. The famed Hijra are a prime example (they are not transgender as is sometimes claimed, if you look at how their are viewed in culture they are seen as another gender). Same thing with the Burrnesha of Albania. Both of these are people that society sees to be not male nor female so they take on the roles of not male nor female. Other examples abound in Papua New Guinea and the Amazon basin to this day of genders that are outside of the male-female binary, and they are not based on scientific evidence.

 

EDIT: One second too late, Iridium already mentioned the Hijra and Burrnesha

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48 minutes ago, DryRain said:

what does that even mean

It means I'm using the definition for gender as a basis of my stance.

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As for the idea of "making up a new gender", people create new nations, new religions, and new political ideologies, so why shouldn't making up a new gender be possible?

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5 minutes ago, Aebt-Ætheling said:

What do you mean 'make up a new gender' and 'scientific evidence supporting the gender'?

 

If I may be allowed to put on my Cultural Anthropology hat... gender is a cultural construct.

Therefore there need not be any scientific evidence to support a gender, rather if a culture sees certain people as belonging to a gender outside of the standard male-female, then they are that gender. The famed Hijra are a prime example (they are not transgender as is sometimes claimed, if you look at how their are viewed in culture they are seen as another gender). Same thing with the Burrnesha of Albania. Both of these are people that society sees to be not male nor female so they take on the roles of not male nor female. Other examples abound in Papua New Guinea and the Amazon basin to this day of genders that are outside of the male-female binary, and they are not based on scientific evidence.

 

EDIT: One second too late, Iridium already mentioned the Hijra and Burrnesha

Gender being a social/cultural construct is entirely up fro debate. That's not the purpose of the thread.

 

I don't find the cultural arguments really convincing, personally. I think that since cultures can be wrong, it having been done is not a valid basis to go off of. But thank you for the post.

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1 minute ago, Iridium said:

As for the idea of "making up a new gender", people create new nations, new religions, and new political ideologies, so why shouldn't making up a new gender be possible?

The purpose of this thread is not to incite debate. Rather, for me to find some material to better understand what you guys consider gender to be.

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1 minute ago, Autumn McJavabean said:

The purpose of this thread is not to incite debate. Rather, for me to find some material to better understand what you guys consider gender to be.

I wasn't trying to start a debate, just pointing out that, if gender *is* a social construct, then it can change radically.

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3 minutes ago, Iridium said:

I wasn't trying to start a debate, just pointing out that, if gender *is* a social construct, then it can change radically.

I get what you're implying, I'm not blaming you, what I'm trying to convey is that if I explain why that's wrong to me, people will focus on that, not the OP. That's my fear.

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48 minutes ago, Moonman said:

If identifying as something other than male or female makes people feel more comfortable and at one with themselves, why is it more important to stay in line with reason, as in science and language, rather than passion, as in people's feelings and ideas?

Because, logic is better when it comes to viewing the world than people's feelings. If feelings trump logic, who knows how that slippery slope might take us.

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