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Gray-asexual/ the 'asexual umbrella' are not asexual

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CBC

@Mihnea Ahh ok, gotcha. Yeah I've used the term "technically bisexual" for myself on occasion; I'm not the purest of gays in existence haha. But I don't really do opposite-sex relationships. If I were to use a dating app/site (would never happen, lol), I wouldn't advertise myself as bisexual because that would be hella deceptive.

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Mihnea
On 12/4/2019 at 6:47 PM, HikaruBG said:

I don't get this argument.

That's like saying that a straight man would still be straight, even when he wants to have sex with men 2-3 times or so in a year... while he wants to have sex with women through the rest of the year.

He wouldn't be considered straight by the most of people.... Noone is going to say "Well, these 2-3 times doesn't count so yes, he is still straight".

So why should we make such an exception for Gray-As simply because they don't want to have sex with others ~90% of the time?


 

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Also, a bit off topic but still somewhat relevant:

 

"Only a Sith deals in absolutes."

 

I unironically had this told to me once (and it was the only time me ever doing this) I stated my opinion on the topic off-Aven, not to mention that I got 'scolded' with "Go check Aven's resources" (despite the fact that I already was using them) as if I'm the one who is uneducated.

 

The nerve of some people!!!

 

 

 

Hello, @HikaruBG, I just read your comment.

In my opinion that man is still straight. Or at least he is mostly straight. I see it like this: during a course of a year I drink water in 95% of cases, on very few occasions I drink alcohol. How is this making me less of a water drinker? I don't want to sound rude or something, but for me it seems very clear that such a man is still straight.

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HikaruBG
1 hour ago, Mihnea said:

Hello, @HikaruBG, I just read your comment.

In my opinion that man is still straight. Or at least he is mostly straight. I see it like this: during a course of a year I drink water in 95% of cases, on very few occasions I drink alcohol. How is this making me less of a water drinker? I don't want to sound rude or something, but for me it seems very clear that such a man is still straight.

That's not what the point of my argument.
No, comparing the whole motion of desiring sex with someone and acting on said desire to drinking water/alcohol is rather ridiculous.

Nowhere within the framework of sexualies is it stated how many times do you have to desire sex with certain gender before you can be counted as heterosexual/homosexual/bisexual/pansexual. As far as I know, noone is using that kind of logic. (This is the reason why I find the notion of proving that you are asexual ridiculous as well.... because proving a negative is quite impossible.)


That being said...

Most of people wouldn't consider him straight, even if he only ever wants to have sex with men (a.k.a. the same sex) like 2 times throughout the year. If he claims that he is straight, while at the same time, is literally seen dating someone of the same sex currently or is about to have ONS (or something similar) with the same sex, most of people would laugh at his face and call him a snowflake.

 

To claim that those times he did that are somehow exceptions and that shouldn't be taken to account to his sexuality, is ridiculous.

(If anything else, I would consider that special pleading and is pretty much the reason why I find it ridiculous as why does demisexuals/gray-asexuals/gray-sexuals get a pass to call themselves "asexual" because they rarely desire to have sex  or desire it under certain circumstances.)


Even with the cases of say, straight men who have sex with other men in prison (note: I'm not talking about rape here), is often times looked at with skeptical eyes as these people could actually be bisexuals but they are in denial/don't really want to admit it for some reason.

It's not a coincidence why many people (especially men, with the infamous "What are you? Fucking gay?", "No homo", ect.) will police others of their own sexuality. It's not a coincidence why many people (especially men, with the infamous "What are you? Fucking gay?", "No homo", ect.) will police others of their own sexuality.

That's because Heterosexuality and Homosexuality work on the basis of single-gendered targeted sexual attraction and it is so straight to the point and strict, it does not allow for exceptions.
Heterosexuality means that you desire to have sex with the opposite sex only. Homosexuality means that you desire to have sex with the same sex only. Nothing more, nothing less.

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Mihnea
22 minutes ago, HikaruBG said:

That's not what the point of my argument.
No, comparing the whole motion of desiring sex with someone and acting on said desire to drinking water/alcohol is rather ridiculous.

Nowhere within the framework of sexualies is it stated how many times do you have to desire sex with certain gender before you can be counted as heterosexual/homosexual/bisexual/pansexual. As far as I know, noone is using that kind of logic. (This is the reason why I find the notion of proving that you are asexual ridiculous as well.... because proving a negative is quite impossible.)


That being said...

Most of people wouldn't consider him straight, even if he only ever wants to have sex with men (a.k.a. the same sex) like 2 times throughout the year. If he claims that he is straight, while at the same time, is literally seen dating someone of the same sex currently or is about to have ONS (or something similar) with the same sex, most of people would laugh at his face and call him a snowflake.

 

To claim that those times he did that are somehow exceptions and that shouldn't be taken to account to his sexuality, is ridiculous.

(If anything else, I would consider that special pleading and is pretty much the reason why I find it ridiculous as why does demisexuals/gray-asexuals/gray-sexuals get a pass to call themselves "asexual" because they rarely desire to have sex  or desire it under certain circumstances.)


Even with the cases of say, straight men who have sex with other men in prison (note: I'm not talking about rape here), is often times looked at with skeptical eyes as these people could actually be bisexuals but they are in denial/don't really want to admit it for some reason.

It's not a coincidence why many people (especially men, with the infamous "What are you? Fucking gay?", "No homo", ect.) will police others of their own sexuality. It's not a coincidence why many people (especially men, with the infamous "What are you? Fucking gay?", "No homo", ect.) will police others of their own sexuality.

That's because Heterosexuality and Homosexuality work on the basis of single-gendered targeted sexual attraction and it is so straight to the point and strict, it does not allow for exceptions.
Heterosexuality means that you desire to have sex with the opposite sex only. Homosexuality means that you desire to have sex with the same sex only. Nothing more, nothing less.

Thank you for your reply.

I know that comparing the desire for sexual activity with the desire for drinking water is somewhat lame. However, I believe that, getting involved in sexual activities with another person of the same sex, on a few occasions (2-3 times, as mentioned by you in your example) does not make you less of a straight person.

I prefer to use a spectrum where you have:

exclusively straight---> mostly straight---> bisexual leaning towards straight---> bisexual--->bisexual leaning towards gay---> mostly gay---> exclusively gay.

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Sarah-Sylvia

I consider myself demisexual and I don't even know if I experience sexual attraction. It might only be sensual attraction that can lead up to it in certain conditions. It's kind of hard to tell sometimes, I think that for some I may count as a gray-asexual, I don't know. I don't really care tho, it's not like any label fits perfectly. There's no label that really describes me.

If there were actually more labels for sexual orientations, it might make more sense, like a term for someone who's mostly straight, in example. But we don't have those labels so saying that person is straight can be the most accurate. If it's 2-3 times per year though, I would say differently. In a lifetime tho, yeah I can see that as relatively straight.

There's also the fact that some labels are hard to communicate. I could say that I'm bi-romantic, but most normal people would be like huh? I'm fine saying I'm bi-sexual. I guess all I'm saying is that sometimes there needs to be leeway, since language isn't perfect.

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HikaruBG
1 hour ago, Mihnea said:

Thank you for your reply.

I know that comparing the desire for sexual activity with the desire for drinking water is somewhat lame. However, I believe that, getting involved in sexual activities with another person of the same sex, on a few occasions (2-3 times, as mentioned by you in your example) does not make you less of a straight person.

I prefer to use a spectrum where you have:

exclusively straight---> mostly straight---> bisexual leaning towards straight---> bisexual--->bisexual leaning towards gay---> mostly gay---> exclusively gay.

No, it would make you bisexual.... Bisexuality means that you desire sex with both the opposite sex and the same sex. And again, nowhere is it said how many times do you have desire sex with either gender in order to be considered "a real" bisexual.

Noone IRL really looks at sexuality like it's a spectrum. At worse case scenario, it's done to undermine other people's sexuality.

Spoiler

Like for example, I legit have seen people telling me that if a gay man gets involuntary physical arousal at the sight of naked women (doesn't matter if IRL or on a picture) then he isn't really 100% gay... even if this gay man states multiple times that he wants to have sex with men and not women.

 

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Mihnea
On 11/13/2019 at 10:01 PM, Mackenzie Holiday said:

Just to make sure we're on the same page about the kind of thing I was referring to when I said "when it's relevant to the conversation", I'm going to use myself as an example. I'm what we might call a "no sex please" gray asexual (to use the terminology in this specific thread). In most if not all practical situations, the word asexual as you described it is a good representation of me. I identify as gray because of a few things that I know about myself that are mostly if not entirely only relevant to me. When people ask about my orientation IRL, I usually do say that I'm gray asexual the same way I do here on AVEN, but in some situations it would be very useful to just say I'm asexual because the reasons I identify as gray are no one's business but my own, in that they will never be relevant to the person I'm telling about my orientation. I try to steer away from doing that myself, but I understand why others find that useful. But this means that gray-As in this camp would also benefit from the general understanding of asexual being as you described. And I don't think this is an edge case either, I've come across a few people who identify as gray asexual but refer to themselves as asexual for this reason.

 

I'm not bringing this up to dismiss your concerns at all, or to imply that this is the only reason a gray asexual might just call themself asexual. I think these concerns are very important and I want to be part of the solution. All I want to do with this post is to identify how we can all support each other. I completely agree with you that as a community we need to all listen to each other and support each other, and I think a part of that is determining what exactly is and is not hurting those in our community.

To be honest I really appreciate this debate. I've always loved cultural misunderstandings rooted in semantics 😀🤯🕵️

 

I am indeed a person who was unable to understand himself when I came first to this forum, but now I have the inner confidence and the knowledge to accept the fact that I am grey-sexual.

 

I can easily relate to it the post quoted above. When I talk to my friends and family members about myself I usually tell them that I am grey-sexual, that is someone who is in between experiencing sexual attraction towards others and not experiencing sexual attraction towards others. I also tell them that grey-sexuality is part of the asexual spectrum, because grey-sexuals experience sexual attraction very rarely or only in specific conditions. Even so, from my experience I can tell that people only keep in their minds the idea of asexuality. Also, some are curious to find out what's the difference between grey and gay... I am heterosexual so most of the time I don't talk about my gender identity and let people assume whatever the want, but it's obviously that it would be much more easily for me to tell people that I am asexual. Even though, I now understand why this would be detrimental to the "asexual asexuals" (for the lack of a better term).

On 11/14/2019 at 3:08 AM, Pan Ficto. (on hiatus?) said:

and @Mackenzie Holiday too

 

In my humble opinion, I always thought this was the whole reason for the grey area. No it shouldn't necessarily be classed as under an 'asexual umbrella' because there are plenty of Greys who are more sexual than ace, and asexual only means one thing: No sexual attraction(ie no desire for partnered sexual contact). But grey does fall in the foggy area between asexuality and sexuality for many people, and is often much closer to asexuality than sexuality. We don't need a new term though because the vast majority of greys already have much more in common with aces than most sexuals, which is why they often get along so well in this community and why they are welcome here. The term 'grey' meets those needs.

 

All we are saying is that grey is not, well, totally asexual by definition, due to those few differences. 

 

You have sexuals, and you have asexuals.. And in between there's the grey area. It's an area on it's own that encompasses everything that isn't quite sexual enough to be sexual, but also isn't asexual enough to be ace.

 

I always thought that's how it was technically meant to be, and it works that way as far as I'm concerned. No one is pushed out, because greys still fall in their own distinct place on the spectrum. So there's no need for any new terms :o 'Grey' is itself an umbrella that covers a range of experiences and identities.

 

Just my two cents :cake:

 

I believe that we don't need any more labels, too. I truly believe that sexuality and asexuality are arranged in a spectrum, which in my opinion was correctly described by someone on this thread; so it should be: sexual person-->demisexual person and grey-sexual-->grey-asexual-->asexual person.

 

On 11/14/2019 at 3:36 PM, Galactic Turtle said:

I was expecting this thread to be locked by now but it isn't yay~~~~

 

I agree that there really doesn't need to be a new word. We already have language like the gray area/gray/demi. However, as was spoken more about at the beginning of this thread, simply saying something like "demisexuality is different from/is not asexuality" will get you banned/blocked/ejected/bombarded in the vast majority of large ace spaces. Let's not even start on the number of articles/interviews of asexual people who at some point say "not all asexual people don't experience sexual attraction, there are multiple types of asexual, I'm the type called gray-a." It just all seems like another tornado of misinformation to add to the already existing tornado of misinformation surrounding asexuality. 

 

And again, it's not that gray area folks are being kicked out of ace spaces or that they're not wanted. It would just be nice if the gray/demi population didn't insist on, for whatever reason, being called asexual... because they aren't. Similar perhaps, but definitely not the same yet for some reason it's an injustice to acknowledge that. 

I believe that choosing the easier explanation as a grey-sexual, that is simply saying you are asexual is as bad as saying that demi/grey people are not part of the asexual spectrum. I can relate more the the experiences of the majority of asexual people than to the experiences of the majority of allosexual people.

On 12/11/2019 at 4:22 PM, Nowhere Girl said:

 [...] So this attitude is not efficiently countered by saying that there is no spectrum, that only lifelong 0% sexual attraction qualifies as asexual - almost on the contrary, it is much better to counter it by saying that there is a spectrum, but in a different sense. Simply - that aces are diverse, that any rhetoric which tries to present asexuality as some kind of "low-fat heterosexuality" or to say that "we are like everyone else, minus sexual attraction" is inaccurate. Because while "aces can love sex" is obviously controversial, "aces can have sex" is obviously technically correct - but still such statements can never be accepted if not accompanied by a reservation that some asexuals would never have sex under any circumstances. Uniformisation is not efficient in fighting misconceptions, instead it should be shown that asexual people are diverse and not all of them fit into the sex-indifferent, born this way, healthy and concentionally attractive narrative of the "Unassailable Asexual".

I also agree with the post made by nowhere girl, I think this user has a good point. I accept the fact that asexual, as an umbrella term, gets confused with the word asexual, used to describe people who are completely asexuals. Perhaps we should just develop better explanations for the already existing labels.

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Mihnea
30 minutes ago, HikaruBG said:

No, it would make you bisexual....

[...] And again, nowhere is it said how many times do you have desire sex with either gender in order to be considered "a real" bisexual.

Noone IRL really looks at sexuality like it's a spectrum.

 

At worse case scenario, it's done to undermine other people's sexuality.

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Like for example, I legit have seen people telling me that if a gay man gets involuntary physical arousal at the sigh of naked women (doesn't matter if IRL or on a picture) then he isn't really 100% gay... even if this gay man states multiple times that he wants to have sex with men and not women.

 

Our opinions are different but I think we should both agree to disagree.

For sure nobody should undermine somebody's else sexuality!

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Gatto

 

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Silence4now
On 11/13/2019 at 8:41 AM, AceMissBehaving said:

And yes I experience this problem on a practical level quite often...

 

I post about my being asexual 

 

A bunch of people respond they too are asexual!

 

Me does happy dance

 

They start talking about how they discovered demisexuality

 

Me disappointed, next time want to clarify I‘m saying I’m asexual.

 

Next time: “ok how do I make this personal asexual visibility post in a way people understand I’m asexual asexual (which sounds stupid and redundant) without either spelling out all the ways I don’t want to f**k, like ever? Because I want to be understood as what I am, but also don’t want to center sex in the conversation, because de-centering sex in people’s minds is the whole point of what I’m trying to achieve with the post I’m making.


Looks like I can’t because when I say I’m asexual that can mean I’m asexual, graysexual or Demisexual. Since both of the other two labels populations vastly eclipse the asexual asexual population, my voice is lost, and I’m doomed to never be able to say “I am Asexual” and have that be all that’s needed to be understood.

 

I honestly wish the majority of folks in the gray area would care more about this. I want us all to be a community, I think we belong as a community, but community means caring about everyone, and part of that means making changes if one group is being systematically hurt like asexual asexuals are in this instance. We push for change, but we are a minority in our own community and no one will listen.

 

As one of the people that you say is hurting the environment for asexual's, I have a question about progress. If this has caused so much trouble, then what would be your suggested fix to this issue? These labels and words were all approved by the peers of the community. I personally do not disagree with simplifying terms when possible. I have told two people about demisexuality and there has been no shortage of explanations that were needed to clarify that. I would almost guarantee that we all have to deal with that to some degree. In order for us to evolve as a community and also as individuals, we must all maintain open minds to new ideas and also accept that change happens at it's own pace. All we should really be worrying about as a community is supporting each other as we grow to be our best selves. I imagine the line is thin between community unity and feeling lost in translation. I can only say I would not want to take any part of this experience away from anyone including myself. Silence4now

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AceMissBehaving
42 minutes ago, Silence4now said:

As one of the people that you say is hurting the environment for asexual's, I have a question about progress. If this has caused so much trouble, then what would be your suggested fix to this issue? These labels and words were all approved by the peers of the community. I personally do not disagree with simplifying terms when possible. I have told two people about demisexuality and there has been no shortage of explanations that were needed to clarify that. I would almost guarantee that we all have to deal with that to some degree. In order for us to evolve as a community and also as individuals, we must all maintain open minds to new ideas and also accept that change happens at it's own pace. All we should really be worrying about as a community is supporting each other as we grow to be our best selves. I imagine the line is thin between community unity and feeling lost in translation. I can only say I would not want to take any part of this experience away from anyone including myself. Silence4now

The only “fix” I would suggest is leaving the word asexual to mean asexual as in “no sexual attraction/desire for another person” instead of that and anything else remotely similar.  So if a person is demisexual saying they are demisexual instead of asexual for eg. I’m not advocating for splitting up the community, only for leaving the word “asexual” to mean that one label, otherwise everyone else in the community has a choice of how specific they want to get, but the asexual component will forever have to get into the nitty gritty any, and every time they want to convey their identity.

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gisiebob
20 hours ago, AceMissBehaving said:

The only “fix” I would suggest is leaving the word asexual to mean asexual as in “no sexual attraction/desire for another person” instead of that and anything else remotely similar.  So if a person is demisexual saying they are demisexual instead of asexual for eg. I’m not advocating for splitting up the community, only for leaving the word “asexual” to mean that one label, otherwise everyone else in the community has a choice of how specific they want to get, but the asexual component will forever have to get into the nitty gritty any, and every time they want to convey their identity.

your desire is understandable. I just... would like to express that when we are limping on labels, when we really need them to communicate to others, most of the time if someone is going to get hung up on ideas of grey (a)sexuality they probably would just the same if they didn't have the words for it. but for us, a lot of times we have to hobble folk all the way over to pitch black asexuality, and then back again just to get them to a perspective where they can see us

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questdrivencollie

I admit I tell a lot of people I'm asexual, if it comes up, because it's simpler to explain than "grey-almost-aromantic demisexual"--I don't think most people understand the grey area very well, and I don't want to hear "oh, demisexual is just normal". And most likely I'll never date and will therefore never have sex, so really there's no need to say anything too complicated. Even if I did, my sex life is nobody's business but me and my partner's.

Oh. That, and I may actually be fully asexual. *shrugs* I'm just not sure.

 

Though, in real life, rather than going into sexual/romantic orientation labels, I'll probably say what I did with my mom--"I'm just not interested in anyone"

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MrUltraLord

Ok so why don’t we create a new umbrella term and then reserve the term Asexual for people who don’t desire/want sex. 

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