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BioSex and Gender in the late 21 st Century


Calligraphette_Coe

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Calligraphette_Coe

John Varley fans will remember the Hildy character in his 1992 novel entitled "Steel Beach". She changes sex and has some adventures fighting off an oppressive machine intelligence. 

Here is the Wikipedia link:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steel_Beach

 

But that's not what this thread is about-- rather, it's to explore what might happen when and if scientific progress in the late 21st and early 22nd centuries changes how people see and express gender.

 

It's pretty much an accepted scientific fact that sex hormones are pretty necessary to one's being healthy. They are certainly necessary to propagate the species, but in a world hurtling towards 10 billion mouths to feed, what might happen if Necessity Becomes the Mother of Invention. Is it possbile that people will opt for a hormone that makes one andogynous or sexless if they are asexual and/sex repulsed IF that hormone can supply the missing Rosetta Stone to keep one healthy, or even allow one to extend life? Or deal with the upheavals of puberty and/or menopause?

 

I think it's possible that this might take place. I for one would be an early adopter if it allowed me to either transition or be free from any trace of male biosex. That's not to say I think male biosex is bad, it's just not for me. Your Mileage May Vary, and if given the choice, would you take it if it became safe?

 

Inquiring minds..... Please report to Ten Forward......

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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9 minutes ago, Calligraphette_Coe said:

Is it possbile that people will opt for a hormone that makes one andogynous or sexless if they are asexual and/sex repulsed IF that hormone can supply the missing Rosetta Stone to keep one healthy, or even allow one to extend life? Or deal with the upheavals of puberty and/or menopause?

No, I don't think I'd sacrifice my gender identity just because I'm asexual. I don't think the two things have anything to do with one another. Would I get rid of my biological sex? Maybe. Obviously not with my current situation with my boyfriend, but maybe if I was alone and wanted to stay that way. Periods are a bitch, and I'm not fond of these flab of fat on my chest. 

To live longer and healthier? Not sure. Again, probably would depend on my relationship status. 

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I think it wouldnt just be a matter of changing sexes but changing back and forth as one would see fit. Once we develop the technology to quickly and accurately modify our genetic information I see no reason to think that gender or sex would even remain a category, much less a category that would be contentious. Of course this would take centuries of development but who knows given what we've seen of genetic science in just the last 25 or so. 

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Calligraphette_Coe
7 minutes ago, SithGirl said:

No, I don't think I'd sacrifice my gender identity just because I'm asexual. I don't think the two things have anything to do with one another. Would I get rid of my biological sex? Maybe. Obviously not with my current situation with my boyfriend, but maybe if I was alone and wanted to stay that way. Periods are a bitch, and I'm not fond of these flab of fat on my chest. 

To live longer and healthier? Not sure. Again, probably would depend on my relationship status. 

What if you could take a pill and make the breasts go away until you needed them? Or even more thought provoking, what if the Father could take a pil and take over those chores? I happen to think there _are_ fathers who would do that.

 

Another possibility? What if allowed humans to be f partially or fully parthenogenic? Even to the point where either sex had this capability? I think with the right DNA tweaks this might be possible? Would they catch on? Maybe not, but choices are always a Good Thing(tm).

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2 minutes ago, Calligraphette_Coe said:

What if you could take a pill and make the breasts go away until you needed them? Or even more thought provoking, what if the Father could take a pil and take over those chores? I happen to think there _are_ fathers who would do that.

So, like, if I could just get rid of my breasts? Sign me the heck up. Screw the "until I needed them" part. Those things can go away for good. Breast feeding feels like it would suck (for me anyway). If he wants to, more power to him. 

 

3 minutes ago, Calligraphette_Coe said:

Another possibility? What if allowed humans to be f partially or fully parthenogenic? Even to the point where either sex had this capability? I think with the right DNA tweaks this might be possible? Would they catch on? Maybe not, but choices are always a Good Thing(tm).

I'm an idiot so, parthenogenic? Like reproducing asexually? Interesting thought. Personally I think evolution would best be served through sexual reproduction and would therefore not approve of such a development. Not a big fan of cloning to continue our species unless it was necessary (cue Star Trek theme songs). I:m more partial to artificial wombs. Like the pods used in the DBZ universe for baby Saiyans. 

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Calligraphette_Coe
1 hour ago, SithGirl said:

 

I'm an idiot so, parthenogenic? Like reproducing asexually? Interesting thought. Personally I think evolution would best be served through sexual reproduction and would therefore not approve of such a development. Not a big fan of cloning to continue our species unless it was necessary (cue Star Trek theme songs). I:m more partial to artificial wombs. Like the pods used in the DBZ universe for baby Saiyans. 

https://depts.washington.edu/ceeh/downloads/FF_Microbiome.pdf

 

What if your microbiome got into the act and helped extend, symbiotically, the biodiversity factor? In that link is data about what is already there, what it is and what it does. What if we could harness it and give something back to it? A genetic/evolutionary Win-Win scenario?

 

I was going to include a reference to Ferris Bueller's Day Off, LOL. ( Teacher: Who first proposed asexual reproduction? Ferris: Your wife?)

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1 minute ago, Calligraphette_Coe said:

https://depts.washington.edu/ceeh/downloads/FF_Microbiome.pdf

 

What if your microbiome got into the act and helped extend, symbiotically, the biodiversity factor? In that link is data about what is already there, what it is and what it does. What if we could harness it and give something back to it? A genetic/evolutionary Win-Win scenario?

 

I was going to include a reference to Ferris Bueller's Day Off, LOL. ( Teacher: Who first proposed asexual reproduction? Ferris: Your wife?)

It's an interesting idea. Not sure what I'd choose. 

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Ever read any of Samuel R. Delany's sci-fi?  He's written a few stories incorporating similar ideas.

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Calligraphette_Coe
4 minutes ago, Iridium said:

Ever read any of Samuel R. Delany's sci-fi?  He's written a few stories incorporating similar ideas.

I'm been looking FOREVER for another copy of 'Babel-17'. I see that one can read it online for free, but I just love my books. The last person I lived with 30 years ago 'pruned' my collection, and that's one that got the axe. I was SO diappointed and mad!

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I think in the future, humans will eventually evolve to become androgynistic by proxy. I think we will eventually become asexually reproduces-tic by way of sex being eventually a no longer needed thing, either because we evolve to reproduce asexually or because we advance and enhance our biology to a point that sexual reproduction no longer becomes really a thing, which it seems to be with babies now able to be raised in artificial wombs.

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Ohoho, how appropriate that we would end up speaking of transhumanism here! ^^

 

Thank you @Calligraphette_Coe, you brought up some very interesting ideas! A ''nonbinary sex hormone'', gods, I'd kill for that :P

Also, you mentioned breastfeeding in males? (Here, the scientific ''male'' as in AMAB) As it happens, yes, males can lactate! This is only Wikipedia, but here you go: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Male_lactation

I'll try to find information and post thoughts later! ^^

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Janus the Fox

Somehow I could see a world where all races, genders, biology and beliefs are all blended in a peaceful contented world, where any difference is accepted and not even resisted.

 

This is like a really distant futuristic world, hopeful to be within the next 1000 years.    

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What I'm REALLY looking forward to is a way to straighten my bloody curves, as my ilium is way too wide for my liking. I've heard it can vary with hormone level over several years.

Here is my only hope :P :

https://www.biospace.com/article/around-the-web/the-female-pelvis-adjusts-for-childbearing-years-university-of-zurich-study-/

(can't find the paper of the study itself) 

I haven't spent time researching about hormones yet, and the topic is incredibly complicated, but I'm not giving up on it. 

I wish more people cared about these topics being studied... 

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Calligraphette_Coe
13 hours ago, PoeciMeta said:

What I'm REALLY looking forward to is a way to straighten my bloody curves, as my ilium is way too wide for my liking. I've heard it can vary with hormone level over several years.

Here is my only hope :P :

https://www.biospace.com/article/around-the-web/the-female-pelvis-adjusts-for-childbearing-years-university-of-zurich-study-/

(can't find the paper of the study itself) 

I haven't spent time researching about hormones yet, and the topic is incredibly complicated, but I'm not giving up on it. 

I wish more people cared about these topics being studied... 

You might to want to specifically research the many hormones that come into play during pregnancy. In particular, relaxin. It makes the cartilage that holds together the two parts of the pelvis soften during the final stages of pregnancy. That's nature way of making sure the babies head can fit through it by expanding if necessary. Could that be turned into reverse and make said hips narrower, too?

 

I think the whole reason for 'child bearing hips' is because evolution gave humans big brains, therefore they need bigger heads. That also meant a long gestation period, if memory servies, and all the physiological sleight of hand to female anatomy. It probably also makes males search out females with wider hips as an unconscious preference that means the male's genes have the best chance of being passed on.

 

 But if we find ways to take human bodies off Evolutionary Autopilot, what advantages can be purposely engineered to accomodate ulterior strategies? We probably won't find out unless some miracle happens with life extension, et al. But maybe we should be thinking about it-- because a thousand mile journey always begins with the first step.

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12 hours ago, Calligraphette_Coe said:

You might to want to specifically research the many hormones that come into play during pregnancy. In particular, relaxin. It makes the cartilage that holds together the two parts of the pelvis soften during the final stages of pregnancy. That's nature way of making sure the babies head can fit through it by expanding if necessary. Could that be turned into reverse and make said hips narrower, too?

 

I think the whole reason for 'child bearing hips' is because evolution gave humans big brains, therefore they need bigger heads. That also meant a long gestation period, if memory servies, and all the physiological sleight of hand to female anatomy. It probably also makes males search out females with wider hips as an unconscious preference that means the male's genes have the best chance of being passed on.

 

 But if we find ways to take human bodies off Evolutionary Autopilot, what advantages can be purposely engineered to accomodate ulterior strategies? We probably won't find out unless some miracle happens with life extension, et al. But maybe we should be thinking about it-- because a thousand mile journey always begins with the first step.

Could be! I don't know that much about hormones, but some (maybe most?) do work in pairs and regulate each other indirectly (an example being insulin and glucagon) so if there is a hormone counterbalancing estrogens' effects on the pelvis (and let's not forget fat repartition...), save testosterone, it could be used that way... 

I'm not planning on ever being pregnant, so before I knew about sex hormones' other roles, my strategy was basically getting rid of all of them. Now I know that won't work, and I'm hoping for a replacement. One that wouldn't make the ilium wider like estrogen, but still keeps the other roles, e.g. keeping bones healthy. 

My guess is, both agabs' sex hormones have effects in common, and other very different effects. So, being hormones, maybe they have a similar area that works on one receptor, and that one works the same way in both agabs; and an area where they differ, and that works with two other different receptors. So we could try to dobsomething with the latter area. 

(If someone knowledgeable in biology percieves what I'm saying is nonsense, I'm willing to be educated ^^' again, I've done NO personal research on hormones.) 

 

Unfortunately, I don't see humanity giving up on pregnancy anytime soon, with all due respect to Huxley. I've asked to get rid of my uterus before, and been told that no doctor would ever agree to it since it's assumed all AFABs want to use theirs once they reach adulthood - even with the alternatives available for having children today. I don't think many cis females will want so desperately to get rid of their curves, to create demand for a ''neutral hormone'', even those who aren't able/willing to bear children. 

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DuranDuranfan
On 11/12/2019 at 1:20 AM, PoeciMeta said:

What I'm REALLY looking forward to is a way to straighten my bloody curves, as my ilium is way too wide for my liking. I've heard it can vary with hormone level over several years.

Here is my only hope :P :

https://www.biospace.com/article/around-the-web/the-female-pelvis-adjusts-for-childbearing-years-university-of-zurich-study-/

(can't find the paper of the study itself) 

I haven't spent time researching about hormones yet, and the topic is incredibly complicated, but I'm not giving up on it. 

I wish more people cared about these topics being studied... 

Yeah I wouldn’t mind if my hips weren’t as wide as they are. I’d be able to button up my men’s cut shirts all the way. For now, my pair of hip minimizing boxer briefs helps somewhat. My wide point is more my thighs than hips so the compression effect works better there.

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51 minutes ago, DuranDuranfan said:

Yeah I wouldn’t mind if my hips weren’t as wide as they are. I’d be able to button up my men’s cut shirts all the way. For now, my pair of hip minimizing boxer briefs helps somewhat. My wide point is more my thighs than hips so the compression effect works better there.

About shirts! I found ''women'' cut shirts fitted with darts, and I simply removed these, and now their cut looks pretty ''straight'' or cylindrical, but the shoulders are narrow enough and they're wide enough downwards. I highly recommend that! ^^ It looks a bit wide, couldn't care less... I know it's off topic, but here you go. 

(I'd normally prefer men's shirts but this seriously felt like creating non-binary shirts =D) 

Personally, I don't know if I'm brave enough to wear a binder AND minimising boxers... maybe after top surgery ^^'

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DuranDuranfan

Hey whatever feels right for you. All I know is when I put on my binder for the first time, my lingering dysthymia(low grade depression) was gone. That’s why believe it was actually dysphoria. I just didn’t know the actual term.

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9 hours ago, DuranDuranfan said:

Hey whatever feels right for you. All I know is when I put on my binder for the first time, my lingering dysthymia(low grade depression) was gone. That’s why believe it was actually dysphoria. I just didn’t know the actual term.

That's great! ^^ My binder made me feel so much better as well! 

I'm not really worried about my top dysphoria, surgery would fix it just fine. Now the hip things might require to come up with better solutions, hopefully not surgical... I believe bone surgery is possible for that in theory, but probably not worth it >.>

Then there's fat repartition. I heard of ''liposculpture'', where fatty tissue is relocated on your waist? Won't it move back down if you keep your female hormones? 

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DuranDuranfan

That I’m not sure of. It’s one of the reasons why I wouldn’t mind microdosing testosterone. I can get an in between appearance. 
 

 

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Also on the topic of gender in sci-fi-

Ursula Le Guin wrote a novel (The Left Hand of Darkness) about a society where most people are physically androgynous, and gender roles are an alien concept.

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Does anyone know where I could find reliable, detailed info on sex hormones? I'm getting more and more obsessed with that and I can't think of it properly with the abysmal knowledge I possess. And no chapter dedicated to endocrinology in my biology school book! I'm already imagining how we could break the current hormone 'package deal' thing - do they get converted into other stuff before reaching some receptors, for example? I don't want to get false hopes! 

I'd like to see if anything can be done besides CRISPRing the receptors. 

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DuranDuranfan
1 hour ago, Iridium said:

Also on the topic of gender in sci-fi-

Ursula Le Guin wrote a novel (The Left Hand of Darkness) about a society where most people are physically androgynous, and gender roles are an alien concept.

Sounds similar to that episode of Star Trek: The Next Generation about this alien species that had no gender and their bodies were androgynous.

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Calligraphette_Coe
3 hours ago, PoeciMeta said:

Does anyone know where I could find reliable, detailed info on sex hormones? I'm getting more and more obsessed with that and I can't think of it properly with the abysmal knowledge I possess. And no chapter dedicated to endocrinology in my biology school book! I'm already imagining how we could break the current hormone 'package deal' thing - do they get converted into other stuff before reaching some receptors, for example? I don't want to get false hopes! 

I'd like to see if anything can be done besides CRISPRing the receptors. 

Try this one as a starter:   http://www.pathophys.org/sexhormones/#Sex_hormone_synthesis

 

Everyone's body is pretty much a giant chemistry set and what happens in different situations and people, I think, is partly based on this. We've already learned how we can do different things to make radical, if temporary changes.

 

Here's another one I often quote, from someone who had a very bad condition and did some experimentation with different hormones to keep it from killing her.

 

https://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/24/opinion/sunday/bringing-back-my-real-self-with-hormones.html

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4 hours ago, DuranDuranfan said:

Sounds similar to that episode of Star Trek: The Next Generation about this alien species that had no gender and their bodies were androgynous.

I think the episode might have been based off the book.

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