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Gendered Bathrooms?


crazy ace

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1 hour ago, AmaechiJones said:

@Poecimeta

I'm guessing you haven't had the privilege of a man blocking you on your way out of a women's toilet, or being followed by one,  which I and other women have. Non-gendered toilets also make it easier for more couples to have sex in cubicles, which means fewer of them freed up for those who actually need the toilet.

😶

That sounds appalling, but I don't see how gendered bathrooms prevent that... reduce it, probably... 

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@PoeciMeta Toilets are secluded, and therefore the ideal type of place for an assault to happen. A cubicle is an even better one, as how many people can see what's going on behind the door of one, or intervene with it locked? A man can't follow a woman into a gendered toilet as easily as he could a non-gendered one. A flasher can use the need to pee as a cover for his genitals being on display. The rate of sexual assaults against women and girls is proven to be higher in changing rooms that are genderless. I don't see why it would be any different for toilets.

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DuranDuranfan
On 11/3/2019 at 12:00 PM, Janus DarkFox said:

I don’t see toilets as ‘gendered’ but separated by sex.  The only real difference in the end is use of Urinals in the Male toilets and a Sanitary Bin in the Females in my locality.  Otherwise there are Unisex toilets and Disability and Baby Changing Areas at my local hospital and GP surgeries, as those should.  There’s a very broad topic on gendered public toilets, a part of that is a Mandatory Sex Segregation article https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_segregation

This time today I had to use the women’s bathroom because it’s my time of the month, and the bin is located in the stall. There’s five stalls. All are empty except for the one I’m in. Another woman comes in and first I can hear her pushing on the door to the stall I’m in(you can’t bend down to see if there’s any feet?), and of all the empty stalls she had to take the one beside me! REALLY?! Grrrr!!! Even though I only had to change a tampon still, it rankles me. 
 

My social anxiety comes from when I’ve had doors open up on me either while I’ve been on the toilet(this happened one time in front of a bunch of snooty girls and they just laughed at me), and this other time it happened also while I was changing a tampon. The lock kept coming loose as people were going in and out of the adjacent stalls.

 

This is why I’d rather use single occupant bathrooms or the Men’s bathroom. 

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On 11/2/2019 at 8:25 PM, crazy ace said:

Maybe this is just my aceness showing or something, but I've never understood having bathrooms for only one gender. It's not like it stops any sex-related stuff from going on, and the only thing it does seem to do is cause dysphoria. Why can't all bathrooms be for any gender?

For one, I don't want to walk into 'bathrooms' (strange euphemism in the first place, there's no bath in there, call a spade a spade!) where there's a row of men standing at urinals. If those get abolished and men learn to lift and replace the toilet seat, then yes, I agree.

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1 minute ago, Acing It said:

For one, I don't want to walk into 'bathrooms' (strange euphemism in the first place, there's no bath in there, call a spade a spade!) where there's a row of men standing at urinals. If those get abolished and men learn to lift and replace the toilet seat, then yes, I agree.

Hence the suggestion to put urinals in a different room, out of sight from the stalls. 

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On 11/3/2019 at 8:13 PM, PoeciMeta said:

AFABs can use urinals too, with a stand to pee device for example.

Would you like to stand next to a man with his thing on show, while you're lifting your skirt to use a shewee to pee?

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1 minute ago, PoeciMeta said:

Hence the suggestion to put urinals in a different room, out of sight from the stalls. 

This is the unisex toilet design I've seen when coming back to my former university.

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3 minutes ago, Acing It said:

Would you like to stand next to a man with his thing on show, while you're lifting your skirt to use a shewee to pee?

No. I guess some people wouldn't mind and find it quicker, but this is not my case and therefore I will use stalls. What other AFABs do is none of my business, if they choose to use urinals, I can only encourage them. Also, I'm AFAB but not a woman, please don't speak like this. 

 

This is barely related, but making bathrooms (including urinals!) gender-neutral would really benefit trans people. I'm only guessing so please don't take my word for it, but you're  more likely to be, at best made fun of, and generally harassed, if you go into a bathroom you don't look like you ''belong'' in, be it from your gender expression or not being in a wheelchair (🙄). It sadly isn't socially accepted to go in the bathroom of a gender you don't 'pass' as. 

It's been argued that gender-neutral bathrooms would make it easier for men to assault women. Okay, but it's very specific, isn't it? You can be assaulted anywhere, by anyone, especially if you're trans, and a sign on a door won't stop an ill-intentioned person. I don't think the frail ''safety'' gendered bathrooms provide against this very specific type of assault outweighs, not only the dysphoria, but also the very real risk they create for trans people. 

Not to mention, what are us enbies supposed to do? 

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58 minutes ago, PoeciMeta said:

Also, I'm AFAB but not a woman, please don't speak like this.

I agree with what you say, but please don't be offended. It was a rethorical question using the plural you to make the point/suggesting that most likely most women would find that idea unthinkable, if not abhorrent. It wasn't aimed at you specifically.

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4 hours ago, PoeciMeta said:

This is barely related, but making bathrooms (including urinals!) gender-neutral would really benefit trans people. I'm only guessing so please don't take my word for it, but you're  more likely to be, at best made fun of, and generally harassed, if you go into a bathroom you don't look like you ''belong'' in, be it from your gender expression or not being in a wheelchair (🙄). It sadly isn't socially accepted to go in the bathroom of a gender you don't 'pass' as. 

It's been argued that gender-neutral bathrooms would make it easier for men to assault women. Okay, but it's very specific, isn't it? You can be assaulted anywhere, by anyone, especially if you're trans, and a sign on a door won't stop an ill-intentioned person. I don't think the frail ''safety'' gendered bathrooms provide against this very specific type of assault outweighs, not only the dysphoria, but also the very real risk they create for trans people. 

Not to mention, what are us enbies supposed to do? 

This is pretty much my whole argument against gendered bathrooms. However, I also think that @AmaechiJones and @Acing It have fairly good points as well.

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@PoeciMetaWomen and girls can be assaulted anywhere, but a secluded place like a toilet, where partial nudity is expected, somewhat enables it. Sex offenders don't want to risk witnesses or intervention. Also very, very few men would have the guts to go into a woman's toilet, unless granted permission. Even fathers of young daughters don't follow them in there! In certain places like bars and clubs ppl have sex in cubicles. If anyone can go into any toilet more straight couples will take advantage of it to bang each other. I don't even want to imagine the queues, haha.

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Mackenzie Holiday
10 minutes ago, AmaechiJones said:

Women and girls can be assaulted anywhere, but a secluded place like a toilet, where partial nudity is expected, somewhat enables it.

The same could be said about young boys. Should we instead have a women and children's restroom and an adult men's restroom?

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@Mackenzie HolidayI'm referring to women and girls as they are far more likely than males to be the victims of sexual assault. Personally I would have men's, women's and gender-free options for toilets.

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DuranDuranfan
9 hours ago, Acing It said:

Would you like to stand next to a man with his thing on show, while you're lifting your skirt to use a shewee to pee?

Don’t need one. 

 

And I wouldn’t use a urinal next to one already in use. That’s basic Men’s room etiquette.

 

And, NEVER LOOK. Always up, straight forward, or down. I prefer down, as I gotta stay focused.

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9 hours ago, Acing It said:

I agree with what you say, but please don't be offended. It was a rethorical question using the plural you to make the point/suggesting that most likely most women would find that idea unthinkable, if not abhorrent. It wasn't aimed at you specifically.

Not offended, just dysphoric. 

 

I understand your point and @AmaechiJones's, and I won't repeat mine, the key being which factor is preponderant. 

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Because some people don't feel comfortable sharing a bathroom with the opposite sex.

 

That being said it would be nice if more places would get unisex bathrooms in addition to the binary ones, but most places aren't designed with that in mind and it isn't always that feasible to just add in another bathroom.

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On 11/3/2019 at 9:25 AM, crazy ace said:

Maybe this is just my aceness showing or something, but I've never understood having bathrooms for only one gender. It's not like it stops any sex-related stuff from going on, and the only thing it does seem to do is cause dysphoria. Why can't all bathrooms be for any gender?

 Because a lot of people aren't comfortable doing something so private in a very confined space with members of the opposite sex.

 

And how does it work? The penis-bearers all lop their cocks out over the urinals while mothers take their 8 year old daughters into the same room, and then what? The mother can land any man in there with a charge of flashing a minor if she feels his penis was too visible.

 

I have PTSD, and having to remove my pants anywhere near where a man may be will literally send me into a meltdown, why should I have to hold my pee in when we can just use separate bathrooms?

 

And yes, sexual assaults already do happen in public restrooms (a bathroom gangrape was filmed not that long ago and put onto pornhub before getting taking down, and as far as I know the guys got arrested because they showed all their own faces on camera while raping the girl).

 

Forcing all bathrooms to be gender neutral would increase the problem, because there isn't really anywhere else where a male and a female (who are strangers) are likely to be forced to be alone together, especially in a place with locking doors and no cameras. I actually find it pretty sick that people pass this off as hysteria.

 

Yes, places that have space should always have a gender neutral bathroom as well as gendered bathrooms, but for 99% of the population gendered bathrooms are not an issue (and keep people at least slightly safer) so they shouldn't all have to change what they're comfortable with to accommodate a small percentage of the other 1%.

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12 hours ago, PoeciMeta said:

Hence the suggestion to put urinals in a different room, out of sight from the stalls. 

 

Ah excellent suggestion. Change from two binary gendered bathrooms to.... two separate bathrooms that penis bearers can use. Y_Y

 

This topic is too hot and too triggering for Gender Discussion, I've said it before when it comes up here. This kind of discussion can really negatively effect multiple different people who have dysphoria, anxiety issues, and PTSD etc because of how dismissive and hateful some people can be towards very real fears. Transpeople can also end up feeling deeply offended due to others trying to defend their own right to use binary bathrooms, and to be safe from having to get their genitals out near people with a different set of genitals.

 

So yeah if a mod reads this, this should definitely be moved to Hot Box.

 

 

 

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As a "penis bearer", I think urinals suck, imho.  Don't see what the big deal about them is, unless you love splashback or something.

 

I never use them unless I absolutely have to go *right now* and I have no other choice.

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I'm strongly in favour of urinals vs cubicles whenever possible. They save up an incredible amount of space. Rather than having gendered toilets, I would separate them by their function: cubicles and urinals. What I really hate is when there are "gender-neutral" toilets (and they are always cubicles) only, in particular when they have a "male/female" sign on them, thus excluding everybody who is on the non-binary spectrum.

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So far I've seen no one being dismissive or hateful. :)

A third, non-gendered option in addition to the usual gendered ones would work, if there is sufficient room, and probably if you don't have to justify using it either. I would feel better using an explicitly gender-neutral option, whether or not there are binary ones next to it. 

But then I tend not to use public bathrooms much in general, so. 

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I'm sorry I'm being so hung up on my bathroom doors, but gendered bathrooms (+ the assumption everyone is straight) is kind of used as an excuse to build these cheap cubicles with 5mm thick cardboard doors and walls that are really easy to peek into or force open. In these conditions, of course many people would be uncomfortable with peeing next to other genders. I am too, so using this kind of bathroom is distressing for me when I have to (uncomfortable around men and women, wooo~). I'm sorry I initially didn't take that into account, I didn't want to make anyone uncomfortable. I couldn't see how people would be so bothered by others if we take the type of bathroom with walls between the stalls as thick as the ones between the 2 bathrooms (and which provide enough privacy for me to not care who is in the next stall, gratefully, even though that isn't everyone's case). Otherwise, yes, it's completely legitimate to fear the bathroom, potential assault, and discomfort with having to get undressed next to undressed strangers, especially of the opposite AGAB... 😖 I'm sorry! 

It's a bit strange, actually: being undressed, even in stalls, is big enough a deal to separate that by gender, but within the gendered category, it's okay to have so little intimacy?! This is A Problem, if you ask me. 

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DuranDuranfan

I like the stall designs at McArthurGlen, a designer outlet mall. They look like little rooms with actual doors, even though they’re sex segregated. There is also a family room too. 

 

Thats how all stalls should’ve been designed in the first place. Even in a woman’s washroom I wouldn’t know if someone is actually beside me because with the acoustics more muffled, it’s harder to tell.

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Luftschlosseule

So after all that has been said, I guess the first question should be how we can make bathrooms safer and only if that's achieved we can talk about unisex bathrooms?
I guess there is this cultural difference coming into play. In Germany its more like "Tell nobody you saw me and I will continue to ignore you on the loo". Everybody is embarassed about bodily functions and just wants to get on with it so the more important things can go on.

 

How would you guys feel about stalls only and security cameras in the sink area?
Also, something I find often here is a person that sits in the entrance to collect the fee if there is one, change toilet rolls, sweep the floor. If a disturbance would happen, the person could help, even if it's only calling security or police.

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Also, something I find often here is a person that sits in the entrance to collect the fee if there is one,

Fuck right off with that shit; if I ever ran into something like that I would just drop my drawers right outside and piss on the floor.

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@Philip027

This is very common for public restrooms, at least in my experience

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Calligraphette_Coe

A transitioned friend of mine once told me the story about her being accosted in a restroom by cis people with an axe to grind against trans people. Her ID says F, and she never told anyone about her surgical status. (She passes very well. ) When security came, they instead, challenged a stone butch who used the restroom right after her. "We had a report there was a MAN in the ladies restroom, and....ummm.....errr...uuuuuhhh... we are very sorry."

 

Me, I'm pretty androgynous, and ALL public restrooms give me an intense case of the creeps. I never stop watching my back and having countermeasures ready for any kind of assault (I'm an assault survivor with PTSD, too).

 

It's ironical that, where I work they have threatened to fire any out M2F people as a detriment to their 'public face' of the business, yet all except one ( the one in the front office for visitors) of the 12 bathrooms in that cavernous place are single occupancy unisex, no urinals. There are huge signs reminding everyone to put the seat down and to clean up after yourself. The 'bathrooms' are so small you couldn't get more than one person in one anyway, and the most nefarious things that happen in them are people talking on cell phones and doing drugs.

 

That's another reason why I try to avoid ANY public restrooms-- you could just as  soon get assaulted for witnessing a drug deal.

 

Oh, and by the way, more than once have I been felt up by men in a bathroom who for whatever reason that I'll leave to your imaginations.

 

So my answer is to know where all the 'single hole' restrooms are and to use them, and to watch my back. Your mileage may vary.

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This is very common for public restrooms, at least in my experience

I have never, ever seen it.  It certainly isn't common in the US.

 

Places might say "no public restrooms" or otherwise bar you from using them if you aren't a customer at a particular establishment, but to outright charge you for using them?  Fuck right off with that shit.  That's just scummy.

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On 11/2/2019 at 1:25 PM, crazy ace said:

Maybe this is just my aceness showing or something, but I've never understood having bathrooms for only one gender. It's not like it stops any sex-related stuff from going on, and the only thing it does seem to do is cause dysphoria. Why can't all bathrooms be for any gender?

I believe it is for safety issues. Particularly females as a whole. Men are generally perves and society at least in Western culture encourages men to be horn dogs. Honestly think about if parents want thier girls around random strange men or if they want them to have a safe space. Of course you can be raped by a female but considering male cultures so toxic that's much more likely. I doubt this has anything to drink with your dysphoria. Thanks t just so happens the rule of girls/boys only triggers you. 

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Luftschlosseule
20 hours ago, Philip027 said:

Fuck right off with that shit; if I ever ran into something like that I would just drop my drawers right outside and piss on the floor.

See, that's how I reacted when people said they're afraid in public bathrooms. If I have to chose between paying a few cents and feeling safe, I'd choose the former.

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