Neopronouns

[Guest]

Not a lot of people use them and for good reason. You get labeled wacko. I totally get why someone would use them too (ex: someone who is genderfluid and just want permanent pronouns that fit them and or someone who is like that one gender that's not neutral but is nb and like anywhere on the spectrum.) The problem is that adding a bunch of new pronouns to the English language does not fit with the general population (adding new words is one thing, new pronouns o o f). It doesn't really sit with me either, I don't like them. I doubt I will find the time or the will to care enough to use them because they feel so ridiculous to me. Yea, yea I'm automatically a dick because of this. Save it. They/them is something that already existed and makes far more sense. If nb just means not male nor female I can't see why they don't just use those. (Perhaps because it seems to carry a neutral connotation with them???)  Idk what do you guys think?

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, KrysLost said:

Not a lot of people use them and for good reason. You get labeled wacko. I totally get why someone would use them too (ex: someone who is genderfluid and just want permanent pronouns that fit them and or someone who is like that one gender that's not neutral but is nb and like anywhere on the spectrum.) The problem is that adding a bunch of new pronouns to the English language does not fit with the general population (adding new words is one thing, new pronouns o o f). It doesn't really sit with me either, I don't like them. I doubt I will find the time or the will to care enough to use them because they feel so ridiculous to me. Yea, yea I'm automatically a dick because of this. Save it. They/them is something that already existed and makes far more sense. If nb just means not male nor female I can't see why they don't just use those. (Perhaps because it seems to carry a neutral connotation with them???)  Idk what do you guys think?

What is a neopronoun? Like xe/xher ? 

[Guest]

7 minutes ago, Serran said:

What is a neopronoun? Like xe/xher ? 

Yep. Ze/zim

Nye/Nem

that's sort of thing 

[Guest]

Just now, KrysLost said:

Yep. Ze/zim

Nye/Nem

that's sort of thing 

Ah. Ok. Thanks. Never heard them called that before. 

 

I... mmm. I understand certain things can trigger a dysphoria feeling, but I do struggle with the new pronouns. They are very odd feeling to use so makes it hard to remember. And there are so many it becomes difficult to remember which fits where and why. Would be nice if we could at least decide on one set of neutral pronouns instead of having so many. 

[Mezzo Forte]

I don’t mind them one way or another. I have no interest in using them to refer to myself, but I do have friends who do use neopronouns (Xe/xir/xirs), and while I do hiccup a bit simply because these pronouns are not part of my everyday speech, I prefer to make the effort in much the same way I expect others to make the effort to refer to me with the correct pronouns. (I personally love they/them as pronouns, but I’ve had at least one xe/xir friend express that xe “only tolerates they/them” so I try to avoid defaulting to they in these cases.)

 

If anything, I could see some folks preferring neopronouns because they are an explicit mark of gender nonconformity, as some folks feel more comfortable if they have visible signifiers of their trans identity. (For example, I’ve seen non-binary folks who have small enough chests for periareolar top surgery opt for Double Incision explicitly because they wanted those scars that have become so associated with transmasculine identity.) I’m honestly more on the live and let live side of things.

[PoeciMeta]

They/them is the most unmarked pronoun, you can use them on anyone whose gender is unknown or unspecified, so it fits well for an agender like me; using neopronouns would in fact feel gendered, albeit not binary, if that makes sense, while they/them is to me kind of the default and therefore devoid of gender connotation. I respect the choice to use neopronouns, which do sound weird but whatever. As @Mezzo Forte said, they can be used to enhance a strong gender identity that isn't binary. So, I can't relate but okay. 

 

1 hour ago, Mezzo Forte said:

(For example, I’ve seen non-binary folks who have small enough chests for periareolar top surgery opt for Double Incision explicitly because they wanted those scars that have become so associated with transmasculine identity.)

(I want to do that ^^ not quite the same reasons, in fact it's also to get rid of nipples which would give me a male-looking chest, but globally yeah I kinda want to be visibly trans physically!) 

[Calligraphette_Coe]

I'm all for them, but I'm also a strong pragmatist-- I know it will take a long time for them to catch on ( and maybe we should get started, because that's how new language develops ). For myself, I don't get all out of sorts when the general public doesn't cooperate-- it doesn't, as the famous Thomas Jefferson quote states, "Break my legs or pick my pocket." Nor does it make my general dysphoria worse than it already is.

 

Looking as I do, some days I'm 'ma'am' most days I'm 'sir'. I feel being androgynous is the best I can hope for, so why kick the apple cart over looking for oranges-- that mostly gets you lemons.

 

As always, Your Mileage May Vary, and maybe someday we'll get a world that is more trans/non-binary friendly. It seems logical that we would in spaces that emphasize Libertarianism.

[Captain_Tass]

I use both they/them and ze/hir. To me, they/them signifies gender neutrality (which is welcomed, because I'm agender) and ze/hir signifies androgyny because it's a mixture of "he" and "she" (which is welcomed, because I'm androgynous, but not an androgyne). They both express something that the other can't fully convey, and they both make me feel euphoric in their own way. They also both have their weaknesses, as they/them is widely used to refer to a (binary) person of an as of yet unknown gender and ze/hir can be too reminiscent of binary pronouns. So I can see these pronouns not being for every nonbinary person, with some nonbinary people going by xe/xyr or ne/nim or ey/em (I sometimes go by ey/em too), or other sets of pronouns instead.

 

I feel as if it really needs to be mentioned that neopronouns aren't some new thing. The neopronoun "thon" was invented back in the 1800s IIRC, and the spivak pronouns (e/em, ey/em) date back to the 1970s. I'm not sure about when ze/hir pronouns came to be, but their use in genderqueer communities dates back quite a bit. Leslie Feinberg used ze/hir to refer to hirself.

 

Personally, I love neopronouns. I find that they're an effective way to express one's gender identity. There are so many nonbinary people in this world, and it's obvious that not all of them will want to be referred to as either he, she or they. Languages aren't static, they constantly evolve. They are alive, because the people using them are alive. And, as nonbinary gender identities start being more visible to wider society, nonbinary-specific vocabulary will increase as well. That includes pronouns.

 

Also, most nonbinary people have been shoved in binary categories all of their life, so being shoved in the category "they" or another single pronoun won't sit well with people who don't feel comfortable using these pronouns. Nobody is asking anyone to learn all the neopronouns in existence. All we ask is that, when you know a nonbinary person who uses neopronouns, make an effort to use their pronouns. You don't have to get it right every time, but you'll get there eventually. There will be slip ups, but as long as you're making an effort, it's alright.

[PoeciMeta]

35 minutes ago, Life Of Tass said:

"thon"

(*chuckles cuz it means ''tuna'' *) 

 

I may explore neopronouns when they sound more natural and people actually use them. Like, rolling pronouns could be nice 🤔 I wonder how many different ones you can fit in a single sentence! 

[rotth]

normalizing the use of neopronouns isnt unrealistic. i mean, same things were said about singular they/them but here we are. 

 

normalizing them will take time but it can happen. 

[RoseGoesToYale]

I think the biggest problem with those pronouns is that they don't look like English and their pronunciations are too close to other words that already exist and are used with great frequency. Any time you bring a new word into a language, it has to look like the target language, otherwise people's brains get thrown off, and it's why words that are invented in in a language follow the spelling and rules of that language.

 

E.g. Swedish. The language has had two 3rd person pronouns, hon (she) and han (he), and more recently brought in a gender-neutral one, hen. It looks Swedish, follows Swedish pronunciation, isn't likely to be confused with anything else, and looks like a personal pronoun in letter and number. The country has adopted it more readily.

 

I see they/them as becoming the standard for gender-neutrality because the words have already been used in that sense for a very long time. The only difference is previously 3rd person "they" was used to refer to an ambiguous or unknown person of unknown gender, while now it's being used to refer to specific people, which really won't be a very big transition in society. They look and sound English, they are already established as pronoun words and nothing else, and all it takes is a little context/intonation to know whether the subject is singular or plural. We're already seeing its adoption in far-reaching establishments like Facebook.

 

(And for those complainers out there who say "I can't use "they" with 3rd person singular conjugation, it looks and feels wrong graaaah!" ... Spanish "usted" (you formal sing.) and Portuguese "você" (you sing.) both stem from archaic formal 2nd person plural usage ) Sorry for the ling rant.

[Guest]

Yeah, I like the Swedish "hen" pronoun... it's easy to remember, even for an American. Trying to remember xe/xer/ze/zir/nym/ne/etc etc etc and appropriate use of all of them is just hard. There are just so many, makes me feel like I need a cheat sheet to memorize it to risk offending someone by using the wrong one. 

[rotth]

17 minutes ago, Serran said:

Yeah, I like the Swedish "hen" pronoun... it's easy to remember, even for an American. Trying to remember xe/xer/ze/zir/nym/ne/etc etc etc and appropriate use of all of them is just hard. There are just so many, makes me feel like I need a cheat sheet to memorize it to risk offending someone by using the wrong one. 

all u have to do is ask someone how to use their pronouns. ur not expected to memorize every single set of neopronouns

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, rotth said:

all u have to do is ask someone how to use their pronouns. ur not expected to memorize every single set of neopronouns

Which is fine, when you only know a few people and know them personally. But, once you get into say, AVEN or discord trans groups, then people don't want to correct you more than once and you don't know them well enough to remember which set they use... I can remember oh that person is non-binary but I really struggle to remember pronouns with so many existing. So, I tend to avoid pronouns altogether and use usernames. People also get offended if you use the wrong pronoun for a person from social media or news stories and again, there are so many, it is hard to remember which non-binary one went to which story ... then if you try to discuss general trans issues if you mention pronouns and forget some when listing you can also offend.

 

It's a bit intimidating for people who are genuinely trying to learn about the trans community, because it feels a bit like learning a foreign language and offending the native speakers with every blunder. So, I end up cautiously avoiding pronouns and writing without them whenever possible, because I do prefer to not offend with using the wrong ones. 

 

And, reason I speak to so many people who are not cis despite being cis myself is my partner is trans and I talk to them seeking help in supporting her. Mostly, the communities are pretty understanding (and have spaces for partners specifically). But, it still bothers people when you use the wrong ones. 

[thyristor]

I really feel that making fuzz about which pronoun to use for anyone, is just another way of cementing genderdiversity or genderdegree as something to make a fuzz about. Why can't we just see it as plain good?

 

I honestly don't see how I could ask people about how they prefer to be referred to, because it doesn't stop at he, she, hen, xi, it just goes on and on. This forum is the very proof that there are as many "labels" as there are people really. Instead of feeling offended when someone picks a traditional pronoun rather than making an effort to pick a specified pronoun or ask which pronoun to pick: why not just be glad that the person talking doesn't see anything unnormal and just refers according to what their guts said?

 

I appreciate that there has been a fight for this and that the discussion still is going on. I can guess that not all the times that someone is referred to as their biological gender when in fact they clearly look like something not confined to that, well, not all the times it is friendly, but there are surely times where it is used exactly in order to hurt the referred person or to deny them their chosen gender. We should focus on getting through to that kind of people who act that way, not focus on the pronouns themselves (also, because that would automatically give those mean people an eternal way to explicitly hurt others by just chosing a certain grammatical word over another, they woudn't even have to use names).

 

Language is supposed to make things easier for us. You will not build in obstacles like asking a question before using grammatical words and to ask from people of all different gendertypes and -degrees to remember other peoples' preferred types and degrees is like remembering how everyone wants their coffee, just now you have not only black or white, you have latte and macchiato and vanilla and espresso and melange, and dunno what.

 

Actually, the only situation where asking about gender makes sense is in species reproduction: "If you are willing and able to reproduce: will you contribute with eggcells or sperm?"

 

Being referred to with a slightly off pronoun or with a one-size-fits-all pronoun is something that might not be easy for a person who is going through changes and who needs confirmation. But I guess nuthing much is easy in that situation. Normalizing the big deal in the pronoun-experience is just another way to say "I need a label, cos I'm not normal, and I need everyone to explicitly show their respect for that label because I can't believe it is worthy otherwise." That would be the saddest thing.

 

💜

[Captain_Tass]

9 minutes ago, CBC said:

That was my first thought as well, yep, being Canadian and having purchased many tins of tuna with French on them.  

It's similar in Greek as well! (Tonos). Maybe this is why the word never really took off? I was reading an article on Merriam Webster about "thon" (< that one) and how the word died despite many people rooting for it.

 

Joke time

 

Spoiler

Ah yes, the four english grammatical genders. Masculine, feminine, neutral and french tuna.

 

[PoeciMeta]

4 minutes ago, Life Of Tass said:

 

  Reveal hidden contents

Ah yes, the four english grammatical genders. Masculine, feminine, neutral and french tuna.

 

🤣

[Captain_Tass]

Just now, Poe's Creep Meta said:

🤣

Whoa, my old phone only shows a square.

[PoeciMeta]

3 minutes ago, Life Of Tass said:

Whoa, my old phone only shows a square.

Okay then , the old version: X'D

[Captain_Tass]

4 minutes ago, Poe's Creep Meta said:

Okay then , the old version: X'D

Both my phone and I appreciate that immensly! 

[no-longer-in-use]

Some people are simply more comfortable using neopronouns for whatever reason. It's disrespectful to refuse to make an effort to use people's pronouns. Neopronouns are difficult to use at first, but with practice it becomes easier. It's not about getting it perfect every time, it's about doing your best to make people feel validated and seen.

[thyristor]

On 11/3/2019 at 2:18 AM, Coddiwomple said:

 to make people feel validated and seen.

But that's exactly what I'm questioning: is it normal and nothing fuzzy to identify as some not-obvious gender, or are people in need of comfort if they identify as some not-obvious gender, as if it was a mishap?

 

I'm probably not sensitive enough for peoples' feelings, please forgive me for that. And I'm aware that there is a goal and there is a state of transition, and the two stages are not the same. In the society that is our goal, gender should not have any other importance than the color of your hair. But while we are wandering around to get there, I guess it is very important to a whole lot of people.

 

I am without great success trying to find some aspect in life that is similarly important to me (cisfemale). If anyone can come up with a parallell, tell me.

[no-longer-in-use]

On 11/5/2019 at 1:57 PM, elisabeth_II said:

But that's exactly what I'm questioning: is it normal and nothing fuzzy to identify as some not-obvious gender, or are people in need of comfort if they identify as some not-obvious gender, as if it was a mishap?

I'm not sure what you mean by "not-obvious gender", but being not cis is definitely normal and valid. Saying otherwise would be transphobic/nbphobic.

[PoeciMeta]

I understand the need some people may have to differentiate themselves clearly from binary genders by refusing usual pronouns, including ''they'' which can be used for anyone (not my case, I like they too); after all, if people created new pronouns, it's because they needed them. 

[Larkaloke]

I'm a bit torn on this. On the one hand, I kind of feel that pronouns in general are confusing enough without throwing in a whole bunch more for people to memorize (and things would be so much easier if English had only one or none), but on the other hand, I can see why people want them.

 

Personally I prefer they/them precisely because it feels less gendered at all and more neutral to me than any of the neopronouns (in addition to having a longer historical usage record in the language) - so I can see why someone who feels that they have a gender that isn't male or female would rather have xe/xir or whatever.

 

I'm inclined to think it would be best to settle on one set of pronouns for "gender, but not male or female" and then have she/he/they plus that one, or just do away with gendered pronouns altogether, but that might be me not really understanding what it feels like to have a gender again, so... yeah. -Shrug- All in all, I'm neutral on the whole thing.

[thyristor]

18 hours ago, Coddiwomple said:

I'm not sure what you mean by "not-obvious gender", but being not cis is definitely normal and valid. Saying otherwise would be transphobic/nbphobic.

An "obvious" gender would be: looking like you could be referred to as 'she' and at the same time also actually identify with being referred to as 'she'. Hence, by "non-obvious gender" I mean the issue we are discussing: The question of what pronoun to use when you look at a person that either looks like a woman but who does not identify as a woman, or looks like a man but does not identify as a man or looks in a way where you cannot determine what pronoun to use. The relevance of the word 'obvious' here lies in clichés, or numbers or space and positioning given in public media.

 

Two approaches presented here are:

 

1) The person with the non-obvious gender (feel free to teach me another term for this) will feel glad if you make an effort and try to use the pronoun that the person prefers. You might even say that the person will feel "validated and seen".

 

OR:

 

2) In an ideal world, gender has no importance whatsoever, and the natural way to go would be to strive towards having only one pronoun for refering to third person singular. Wanting to put on lipstick should not be a question of any obvious or less obvious gender, it should simply be at the same level as when I chose dark blue jeans over light blue ones. Feeling drawn towards males or females or both should not be a question of gender, it should be as undramatic as prefering synth-music or rock-music or both. It should not hurt in any way to be born with a body that looks male and to discover that you like to put on lipstick. It should not render any special treatment, negative or positive, from people around. If I have a male friend that one day starts to put on lipstick, I shouldn't need to switch pronoun from 'he' to something that he prefers from that day on. It should be a neutral pronoun from the start, for them AND me. To split up the flora of pronouns into more words that are genderspecific is counterproductive.

 

I understand that we are not in this ideal world right now. That's why I also wrote earlier, it's good that the discussion is alive and taken seriously.

 

I keep trying to imagine what it would feel like if someone referred to me as 'he'. It is hard, I can't imagine it in any other way than when someone does only know my last name or only my profession. This puts light on that 'he' is overused in situations where you don't know the gender and that 'he' is sloppily used for professions that have mainly male workers. Some week ago however, I walked towards a neighbour of mine, and she said that at a distance she thought that I was a boy, due to my bright blue jacket and the way I moved. I didn't feel anything special about that.

 

And since I've never heard of different pronouns before I started reading here, except the one Swedish officially adopted genderless pronoun 'hen', I can not imagine in a valid way what it feels like to be referred to in a way that I don't identify with.

[DuranDuranfan]

@elisabeth_II I think the term you’re looking for is ambiguous.

[Guest]

It's not like I don't get them, but they leave a weird sinking feeling in my stomach. I imagine it's probably the mix of the language and stigma for me. That's why I avoid people who use neopronouns. They deserve to be around someone who's far more open to them and relaxed. I'm not ready yet. 

[Janus the Fox]

I keep an open ended approach to pronouns, more... a they approach first but I’m mostly a “you” maybe, depends, socialising tricky enough with my own pronouns.

[Sherlocks]

On 11/2/2019 at 6:40 AM, KrysLost said:

Not a lot of people use them and for good reason. You get labeled wacko. I totally get why someone would use them too (ex: someone who is genderfluid and just want permanent pronouns that fit them and or someone who is like that one gender that's not neutral but is nb and like anywhere on the spectrum.) The problem is that adding a bunch of new pronouns to the English language does not fit with the general population (adding new words is one thing, new pronouns o o f). It doesn't really sit with me either, I don't like them. I doubt I will find the time or the will to care enough to use them because they feel so ridiculous to me. Yea, yea I'm automatically a dick because of this. Save it. They/them is something that already existed and makes far more sense. If nb just means not male nor female I can't see why they don't just use those. (Perhaps because it seems to carry a neutral connotation with them???)  Idk what do you guys think?

Yes, but than you have to explain it to the grammar Nazis. Like "I'm either being considerate or vague about the gender".