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Traveler40

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How do you help folks that refuse to help themselves? At what point do you cut bait?

 

I’m trained to rescue, but always assess first. If my safety is threatened, it’s ok to watch someone die. Seriously.

 

Theory is great and all, but in the heat of the moment, it doesn’t happen that way. What would  you do though when confronted by someone who doesn’t care if they live or die?  Literally - they don’t give a shit either way and their lack of response / action threatens your safety.  What would you do?

 

Edit: You’d help anyway.  Then, you’ll be up exhausted and haunted by that which boggles your mind. Welcome to my Friday night.

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Yeah Sally, landed here by default.  I’m tired. Mods can move it if they see fit.  Sorry about that 😬.

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No, this IS the right section.  The one I helped rescue was my husband. I’m too tired right now, but there’s a lot swirling in my mind.  
 

It wasn’t so much that he needed rescuing, which he did.  It’s that he didn’t care either way.

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2 minutes ago, Traveler40 said:

No, this IS the right section.  The one I helped rescue was my husband. I’m too tired right now, but there’s a lot swirling in my mind.  
 

It wasn’t so much that he needed rescuing, which he did.  It’s that he didn’t care either way.

The problem with trying to rescue people who don't care is that even if it works once, they may not care enough to stay rescued.  And if you're still around, you have to do it again.  

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Right, that’s what I’m taught. But Ceebs, if it was Skulls? That kinda changes it, no? AND haunts the crap out of you.

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I don’t know, he wasn’t TRYING to get into a situation.  However, once he did, he gave up immediately.  Ahhhhh, can’t solve it tonight, but he’s ok.  I’m just thinking about all the tangential relationship crap where he gave up so easily as well.  Brain on swirl.  Maybe I’ll be more lucid tomorrow.

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Yeah, I need sleep. Thanks.  I can’t clearly form my thoughts, but beyond the haunt of the present lies the haunts of the past. Zero desire to save anything as evidenced by a total lack of action is just tough.  
 

Seeing it play out in an alternate scenario has me drawing parallels and thinking psychologically.  Maybe I’m just spent and tomorrow holds more clarity.  Yeah, sleep! Alright, thanks for listening. Tough afternoon here. 

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Anthracite_Impreza

Surely that depends why they don't care, and whether they really don't care or are just saying or acting like they do because they're completely lost or overwhelmed. I've been through that shit tonnes of times, for mental health issues. At one point I didn't care because I'd been abused and had learnt to just put up with shit to be safe, another point I had horrible depression, another, gender dysphoria which I genuinely thought could never be resolved so gave up entirely... you get the idea. On a certain current issue I keep yoyoing back and forth because it's too much for me and I need help, but I'm scared my 'can't help myself' feelings will cause my support to abandon me.

 

So yeah, just something to consider.

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It's hard to tell what another's particular situation is.

 

I've had difficulty with wanting to live / suicidal ideation for most of my life, but am pretty functional despite that. The "guard rails" for me have been the responsibility I have to others, and the harm I cause to them if I harm myself.

 

Longer term, that same sense of responsibility motivates me to repair myself, because my unhappiness or dysfunction also causes harm to others (eg to go get therapy). I don't have much (if any) intrinsic motivation to help myself. I try to be happy because others want/need me to be a happier person.

 

If someone isn't motivated by their responsibility to others, my strategy doesn't help. If they feel like they don't matter to others, or like the responsibilities are a source of pain -- those are tough things, but they might be addressed.

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So, now that it’s been a couple of days, I can add more color with distance.  My husband decided to pick up our hobbies in order to spend more time together and so we found ourselves on a diving adventure Friday. It was just the three of us. 
 

What I failed to understand at the time was that he likely had a full blown panic attack under water. At least that’s what we think it was. He has been throwing up on and off since and can’t seem to leave the sofa much.  He almost drowned, went complete comatose and was unresponsive to simple instructions.  We surfaced and got him buoyant, but he’d checked out completely.  He had given up almost immediately and was clearly ready to die. He had zero fight, zero care and no desire to live. You could see it. 
 

My lover and I literally had to save him, and he almost took us down in the process. We have been trained for generally that situation, but never understood someone could give up in the sense that he had. My husband is neither depressive nor has ever given any sign of that feeling.
 

What haunts me still was the look in his eyes. What I know is “fight or flight” when faced with such circumstances, but full acceptance of death and almost welcoming it is what I don’t understand.  Additionally, I kept saying, “Please, help us.  We need you to move. If you don’t move, we are all in danger. I need you to move NOW!” He just clocked out, refused to budge and never came back.  Once back on shore, it took hours for him to right his mind. 
 

I think he’s been emasculated in a way.  I think he feels humiliated and unsure of himself.  This is conjecture, but it seems so.  My lover and I both feel very badly about all of it. I can’t say, “please don’t come with us again”, but hope that’s a foregone conclusion. I can’t talk much about it other than to focus on the panic attack angle and keep saying he couldn’t avoid it.  
 

Maybe I just don’t understand panic attacks, or maybe it wasn’t truly that.  I don’t know.  What I do know is that I think we should get some counseling as a precaution.  My friend’s response was, “You know, we are all one event from a mental breakdown!” So that has me on edge as well. 
 

This is all so out of character and wholly unexpected. I don’t know how to deal with it really. He’s dejected to the extreme, and I’m at a loss.

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Very strange behavior on the part of your husband.  If he is also an experienced diver why would he panic?   I keep thinking there is more to this than panic in the water...  perhaps a call for help on a larger scale, a loss of control which he feels he will never regain. Maybe I’m reading too much into the scenario you describe or I just don’t completely understand what happened.    I feel sorry for him because the situation sounds humiliating in the extreme.  His inability to help hisself- also humbling, I’m sure

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He is not an experienced diver. He’s only recently picked it up in order to join us. He has fewer dives under his belt than any diver I know. So yeah, he’s new and clearly not that into it...😬

 

Furthermore, he is not a strong swimmer. We knew all of this and had him take extra classes with personalized attention.  He’s never shown signs of panic before, but it did take him longer to pass the basic courses than your regular person.  I went so far as to hire a specific instructor to ensure safety and personal training.  He had trouble at various stages, but we thought he’d gotten over it.  I think he carries a fear of the ocean at this point.

 

We have suggested skin diving as an alternative while we are under until he’s fully comfortable if he still wants a go (even to save face).  We want to ensure he doesn’t feel left out or less than. He hasn’t said much and is still down in the dumps which is understandable.  It’s tough.

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1 hour ago, CBC said:

I don't know what actually happened here, but if it was a severe panic attack, I can promise you that in that moment he may have been truly unable to help himself snap out of it any more than he could snap out of having a heart attack. They can be completely debilitating....unable to move,... struggling to breathe, either staring like a zombie or looking desperately and helplessly at whoever..., mostly out of touch with any sense of reality and very sincerely convinced I'm dying. If someone has reached that level of panic, they have virtually no control. It stops eventually because the body becomes exhausted from that level of distressing hyperarousal, but the aftereffects suck and linger anywhere from hours to days. It's a significant physical shock to the system.

The part I kept above is pretty much what he describes. He was basically comatose and convinced he was going to die. (And seemed ok with it in the moment) I can only report what he’s said and what I witnessed.  It was mayhem from my viewpoint and completely crazy. I still can’t understand how he couldn’t move even though you describe it here.  
 

Hmm, I’m more sure it was a panic attack after reading this than I was before.  We have not had a doctor look at him. He didn’t leave the sofa this weekend but a few times and still isn’t feeling well, but did go to the office. Our housekeeper is very busy Monday’s especially, so no one likes to be home or in the way which motivated him to go to work. 
 

It was the look in his eyes at the time, and my interpretation of it that still haunts me.  No, we haven’t attended therapy since my husband’s sessions early last year.  I’ve talked with a few close friends and feel it may be beneficial to revisit it.  
 

He was saying he has no idea what happened or how, just that he was completely frozen.  He doesn’t understand it either. He said he was totally wiped out after and couldn’t move.  Yeah, it was serious from my viewpoint.  We came to “panic attack” as it seemed to fit, but we aren’t doctors and have never experienced one personally or otherwise. You describe it pretty well @CBC.  God, I can’t imagine having something like that recurring.  I’m sorry to hear you went through that.  It’s scary for all involved.

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One more tangential thing that may or may not be a factor:  My husband smoked for years as it was just a way of life where he grew up.  He’s quit on and off (always smokes out of sight as I can’t stand it), but finally seemed to kick it a few years ago.  Counterintuitively, when he got diagnosed with cancer, the stress of it had him pick the habit back up.


Yeah, I’ve been riding on him to quit for many months.  He finally decided to quit last week and was on day 5-6 smoke free when all this happened.  Is it a factor?  🤷🏻‍♀️  I can tell you he’s usually a mess for a couple of weeks when he quits.  Anger, sleeps like he can’t get enough of it, feels sick for a few days, etc.  That’s the only negative thing going on that’s out of the ordinary for him.


I honestly do not think this situation is related to our relationship structure even though a few of you think so.  The only real angst he seems to carry on that front is with regard to the future. He worries deeply about how life may unfold around him no matter what discussion we have on it. He loves his family and wants to keep it this way forever. His fear is being alone.

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This kind of sounds like what many people describe in near-death experiences - when fight or flight is impossible for whatever reason, the brain moves on to acceptance and/or the consciousness floating away from one's body, etc. Maybe that's all this is?

If you assume, for instance, that this is linked to a chemical cascade that naturally happens to the brain when it's severely deprived of oxygen, if could be that your husband got caught up in this cascade through no choice of his own, and now he's dealing with the memory of being trapped powerless within his own body during a situation that endangered all of you.

This is all conjecture, but given how shaken up you've described him as afterwards, his actions (or lack thereof) don't sound intentional on his part. It might have just been a small freak accident that was escalated by the panic of a novice diver - if that's the case, it might help both of you if you see it as something that was out of his control, not some secret suicidal urge. If the experience continues to affect him a lot, he'll probably need some help processing it properly.

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Whatever the cause was, it sounds traumatic for everyone involved -- emotionally if not physically, especially given the context of relationships. I'm glad everyone seems okay and safe now! Therapy sounds like a good idea, especially if you already have a therapist you think is good.

 

Since starting testosterone (at "full dose" now), I've had a lot more trouble noticing/feeling my emotions. I thought it was just socialization, but now I wonder... if men genuinely are predisposed to having trouble sensing their own emotions. 😕 I was a little blindsided last week by suicidal thoughts without "warning" of unhappiness (not saying that's the deal here -- it sounds like a panic attack is a reasonable explanation). It was scary to realize I hit that point seemingly out of the blue. (But one I'm familiar with managing; I reached out to a friend.) On the whole I experience a lot less emotional pain with T, but the changes have downsides.

 

All this is to say, men and women are all different (I don't mean to promote stereotypes), but he might not know himself, knowing his own emotions might be genuinely harder for him. I've been frustrated with my spouse for years for his seeming obliviousness in "not knowing himself" and... I'm inclined to be a lot more sympathetic to that now. (Some of this transition stuff feels like eating a little crow...)

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1 hour ago, wyrdwyrm said:

This is all conjecture, but given how shaken up you've described him as afterwards, his actions (or lack thereof) don't sound intentional on his part. It might have just been a small freak accident that was escalated by the panic of a novice diver - if that's the case, it might help both of you if you see it as something that was out of his control, not some secret suicidal urge. If the experience continues to affect him a lot, he'll probably need some help processing it properly.

Yes, I agree with this.  I appreciate all of the input.  It was a freak thing and shook us all up, and he’s still not 100%.  I’m definitely keeping a close eye on him.

 

30 minutes ago, anisotrophic said:

All this is to say, men and women are all different (I don't mean to promote stereotypes), but he might not know himself, knowing his own emotions might be genuinely harder for him. I've been frustrated with my spouse for years for his seeming obliviousness in "not knowing himself"

Yes, I agree with this as well.  Likewise, he can frustrate with missing the broad side of the barn. However, I sense your husband is more nimble in a way. He seems to grasp what you need and morphs to fill those requirements for you.  It’s not that my husband can’t grasp things broken down; he does rather well actually.  It’s that he both needs the detailed explanation and chooses to not resolve things which is less than ideal for sure.
 

I’m sorry you had a rough week last week.  “Out of the blue” would be understandably worrisome as you never know when it might happen again. I’m glad you know the signs and have friends you can call on...
 

It’s interesting that you seem somehow desensitized to your emotions. I wonder if that will be semi-permanent?  You’re clearly so thoughtful by nature (sensitive to self and others) that I’d be curious to see if T blunts that part of you.  
 

Also, how would you feel if you lost sight of the very change itself (even more removed) in time?  I don’t know what to say about that or how you might feel, but it reads a little bit like it a personality change: For you to have a tougher time accessing or recognizing how you feel. On the face of it, I’d assume it could be temporary given that being insightful and/or observant is a basic personality trait (whether male or female). Hmm, you might just have to work a little harder?  Hope that makes sense.  

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8 hours ago, Traveler40 said:

It’s interesting that you seem somehow desensitized to your emotions. I wonder if that will be semi-permanent?  You’re clearly so thoughtful by nature (sensitive to self and others) that I’d be curious to see if T blunts that part of you.  
 

Also, how would you feel if you lost sight of the very change itself (even more removed) in time?  I don’t know what to say about that or how you might feel, but it reads a little bit like it a personality change: For you to have a tougher time accessing or recognizing how you feel. On the face of it, I’d assume it could be temporary given that being insightful and/or observant is a basic personality trait (whether male or female). Hmm, you might just have to work a little harder?  Hope that makes sense. 

It does! It's a strange new territory. I worried to my partner that I may turn into an asshole; he assures me that's not happened yet. (I think it's good to have that observation from another, during hormonal transition.) I'm not too worried about consequences with suicidal ideation (unfortunately, once one has this "habit" – breaking the mental barriers to self harm – it's probably a lifetime affliction), it's something I'm practiced with managing. In general I think it's good for me, emotions were raw before (like BPD).

I used to have a reflexive "worry about what others think/feel" that seems to be muted – and I think that's probably good, it can be debilitating. I can still guess and value someone else's experience without feeling actual pain. It's made me wonder to what extent "empathy" tends to be more of a learned skill for men, done out of respect for others, and more often an instinctive one for women.

(An incident of non-empathy a couple months ago highlighted this distinction. Women that learned of it responded with "how could he?!" while a man I knew responded with "how stupid is he?!")

All that said: this is just how I am when going from female to male hormonal states – everyone is different! I don't doubt there's many people that are happier being in a female hormonal state. (And the ability to transition hormonally is a privilege not all transfolk are able to have.) It's left some open questions – how much of this is just an adjustment period? If I've lost 95% of my ability to cry, my physiology is changing beneath me, maybe it's just having trouble interpreting myself because of that – and I adapt to it in time. Or maybe I don't adapt, but I become less conscious of the shift that occurred.

Apologies for the digression, but I feel more forgiving now of the stereotypical male difficulties in self-knowledge. And that does feel relevant – your husband might not have understood himself in some way (and in a way that's hard for you to imagine), and he might be very upset at the consequences. (And might not even understand he's upset about that!)

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7 hours ago, anisotrophic said:

It's made me wonder to what extent "empathy" tends to be more of a learned skill for men, done out of respect for others, and more often an instinctive one for women.

Interesting.  I feel empathy can be unlearned via circumstance.  I always think jury profilers are actively looking for those stereotypes that might preclude one from being overly empathetic for the prosecution selections 😬.

 

7 hours ago, anisotrophic said:

I feel more forgiving now of the stereotypical male difficulties in self-knowledge. And that does feel relevant – your husband might not have understood himself in some way (and in a way that's hard for you to imagine), and he might be very upset at the consequences. (And might not even understand he's upset about that!)

I read your digression a few times and couldn’t fully grasp it which signals neither can you yet. The above rings true, and I can’t imagine.  I have had the hardest time with the apparent lack of empathy, but haven’t attributed it to his “maleness”.  God, we are all so damn complicated.

 

I happened to bring up counseling recently (before the incident) and was thinking it might be good to see a male therapist.  It was just a thought, and I kind of figured we could do couples work as we only gave it one try together a couple of years ago.  Nothing ventured, nothing gained I suppose and many here point to counseling as critical. (Which hasn’t been my experience, but maybe I need to find someone better?!?)

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Whore*of*Mensa
On 11/4/2019 at 7:36 PM, Traveler40 said:

His fear is being alone

This is a very common fear for asexuals; it's a very likely outcome if you can't accept the other options that are on offer. 

 

Maybe some specialised counselling would help, or maybe making contact with other asexuals which might make him feel less alone. 

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4 hours ago, Whore*of*Mensa said:

Maybe some specialised counselling would help, or maybe making contact with other asexuals which might make him feel less alone. 

The former I’m working on, the latter shows no promise as he simply refuses to accept that he’s asexual.  He’s 10+ years celibate and really does not see it.  He has come to AVEN on a handful of occasions and told me the following:

 

1. The definition does not fit him at all.

2. He was horrified by my advice to another individual (turns out it wasn’t my advice, but I had quoted another member and agreed.) That advice was to leave their spouse.

3. He thinks we are all just wasting time here.

 

I have to say he has a point on #3 at times, but beyond discussions with him or with my lover, I find I talk about my deeper issues best here. AVEN has a weird way of sucking you in. Haha

 

Many times, it’s like therapy.  Me talking to me sorting it out for me. Selfish to the max, I know, but I’m deeply grateful for this place and the ability to throw it out there for a better understanding.  Most often now, I read yet don’t comment since much of the advice is loop or others say what I was thinking.  I recall Tele had a cut n paste. 😂

 

Back to the issue at hand: My husband has a bit of “it can’t stay broken if I fix it” thing going on.  I believe it’s the victim/martyr syndrome.  He’s so over me diagnosing anything so I try not to call it as it see it as far as defining much of anything for him. He thinks I should leave the psychoanalysis to the professionals, and he has a point. 
 

This is why I used to get so upset with @anisotrophic.  (Yes, we hashed it out many moons ago.) Some folks refuse to accept, self define, understand, educate or even discuss the reason for the elephant in the room.  I call the issue in my home asexuality having lived it for near 20 years and spending near 3 years on AVEN educating myself.  My husband lacks both empathy for me and understanding for himself. He is perfectly ok in that space and keeping our lives as is. Is it fear? I don’t know.  
 

I give him full credit for eventually seeing my pain while not feeling it.  He didn’t have much of a choice towards the end of my 8+ years of celibacy. He somehow understood I was breaking, beyond me just telling him. He has been to counseling since me taking a lover.  In both cases the therapists understood he had no problem with our open structure and harbored zero jealousy. That I have known from the start.  
 

My husband doesn’t want to be replaced, but he accepts my need for intimacy while understanding he neither can nor will provide it. It’s how that outside influence has changed me and potentially could change his family that has him preoccupied in a way.  He fears being replaced and thus ending up alone.

 

He loves his family and would do anything to keep it as is, except that which would have kept it as is. He doesn’t identify as ace, and the loop starts anew.

 

Edit: Bottom line, we keep coming back to therapy.  Neon sign? Message received!

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On AVENites:  Once you’ve been here awhile, it seems folks fall into one of 3 camps. 
 

1. Write a thesis for everything.

2. Write in sound bites.

3. Don’t comment often or at all

 

I always fancied I’d be #2.  It’s safe to say I was wrong.  😂

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Whore*of*Mensa

@Traveler40 I can't really comment, you're probably right it's best not to. You obviously know him very well, and don't seem to like him much! But that may just be the way you express yourself.

 

I'm not here for advice particularly, and try not to give it unless I think I can be of use (it seems not, in the present situation!). It is useful to read about other experiences though; it helps me to understand what I want/do not want myself. 

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31 minutes ago, Whore*of*Mensa said:

 

@Traveler40 I can't really comment, you're probably right it's best not to. You obviously know him very well, and don't seem to like him much! But that may just be the way you express yourself.

 

I'm not here for advice particularly, and try not to give it unless I think I can be of use (it seems not, in the present situation!). It is useful to read about other experiences though; it helps me to understand what I want/do not want myself. 

 

Interesting.  I had a few immediate thoughts:

 

1. I thought I said I was grateful for this place and that counseling (your recommendation as well as others) was a recurring theme and one I was looking into?  Thanks for your input - since it wasn’t crystal clear, I appreciated it.

 

2. You mentioned my husband’s fear (of being alone) to which I thought I was agreeing...🤷🏻‍♀️
 

3. I commented at length about him not identifying as ace, which he doesn’t. This has been ongoing in our home. 
 

Lastly, I don’t know why you surmise I don’t like my husband. I find that kind of funny beyond being off base.  I call it as I see it and in this case, he does not self identify.  That neither denotes feeling nor opinion, but fact.  

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Language is a funny thing.  What we think we say and what’s received can be so totally different. I wonder how much of it is our own inner voice creating what we interpret? 🤔

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Whore*of*Mensa

@Traveler40 I don't know the whole situation and it would be very difficult to work it out from a few posts - hence why I feel it's best for me not to comment!

 

it is a shame he doesn't want counselling, or to seek support from anyone with similar kinds of issues. That might help him better understand how he feels.

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19 hours ago, Traveler40 said:

Nothing ventured, nothing gained I suppose and many here point to counseling as critical. (Which hasn’t been my experience, but maybe I need to find someone better?!?)

I'm in graduate school right now to become a relational therapist, and I can say the quality of therapists out there varies wildly.  I've seen three for personal therapy and none have been very helpful at all - I stopped going because I was getting so little out of it.  But in my training I have seen counselors who I can immediately tell are fantastic - that I believe could lead me to life-changing understanding.  I'm far enough along in my training now to recognize my own issues, how much they're affecting my life, and knowing there are absolutely effective paths to working through them, and I'm still a little baffled that none of the counselors I've seen knew what to do.  So I believe almost everyone can benefit enormously from good psychotherapy, but FINDING that good psychotherapist is tough.  You'll know when it clicks.

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4 hours ago, Memento1 said:

So I believe almost everyone can benefit enormously from good psychotherapy, but FINDING that good psychotherapist is tough.  You'll know when it clicks.

I wish I'd been bolder about trying new therapists in the past. It took one good experience to realize how mediocre most of it was. Last crummy therapist is like "well this takes more sessions" when I expressed dissatisfaction. Yeah... no.

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