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Why are we elected

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Puck
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The difference here is that if mods found they really couldn't abide by a ToS they supposedly don't agree with, you'd think they would renounce their position and leave.  (And I'll bet a gazillion dollars that some have done just that.)  By sticking around and not taking any sort of stand against it, you're making a statement that you feel everything is okay, regardless of if that's actually how you feel.

 

Kim Davis didn't do this.  She just wanted to have her cushy job and eat it too.  But it's not like the mods here have "losing their paycheck" as a potential excuse for sucking it up and remaining in a role they supposedly don't agree with.

You are right. I agree, I don't think mods find this a divisive enough issue to step down over. I think most mods who disagree think they can do more good by sticking in their position regardless of this rule.

 

AVEN is still the biggest asexuality website, possibly the biggest community. Mods may not be able to let people "invalidate" each other, but they can push at that rule for all it's worth, they can keep the ToS from getting stricter, they can find ways to make the rule as livable as possible. If they step down, they risk letting things get subjectively worse as there are clearly many who support this rule and might step in to push it farther. Sometimes in leadership, people have to follow a rule they don't love in order to do more good than that rule does harm. Shit ain't black and white, this rule isn't the core of AVEN, nor is it the only element of AVEN.

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daveb
47 minutes ago, Puck said:

there are clearly many who support this rule and might step in to push it farther.

Ah, yeah, the slippery slope argument. I'm not on board with that. That's a fallacy with no basis as far as I'm concerned.

 

I do my best to apply the rules as written, and to follow the spirit of them as well as the letter. I see a big part of my job as moderator to be one of adjudication, to try to be impartial and give everyone a fair hearing and a fair outcome (or to abstain if I feel I can't do that - and I'd step down if I felt there were too many cases where I couldn't). Yes, everybody has their own interpretations, although some cases are clearer than others, but when I think it's clear enough I don't agree with "pushing" it (one way or the other) just because I don't agree with a rule or policy. I support the Board's position on the issue we are all talking about, because I examined it, their reasoning and the history they provided. I had plenty of time to give input before their statement was made public, as did everyone else on the admod team. I feel like it does serve the membership, in spite of some people being against it. That's my opinion on it and others may disagree in good faith. I am doing my best not to impugn anyone's motives, intelligence or diligence. In the end though, I feel the Board's established position is not for me, as a mod or as a member, to go against.

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Kisa needs a latte

Pretty much what daveb said.  I even issued a few concerns about how this could affect modding or where I felt the line should be.  I still want to be able to have conversations about the validity of labels but in the right areas.  Not in a thread where somebody is calling themself a cupiosexual.  I’ve even posted about how I felt about autismgender in hotbox once and had somebody explain why they identified as autismgender and my mind changed from “that’s offensive never use it ever” to “okay, only people on the spectrum can use it otherwise that’s a bit offensive”.  I like that I had that conversation but I would not have had the space to have it if I couldn’t say my beliefs at the time.  But I also don’t believe I should be going into random people’s threads and saying “you’re using this label wrong”

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Puck

Well, I’ll just say for the record I was trying to express why someone who disagrees with one rule might still find it worth it to stay in a position of enforcing said rule. I didn’t mean to imply that if all mods who stepped down did so everything would get subjectively to those mods thoughts worse. I just meant that, as I said above, there are benefits to staying in a position where one has to enforce a rule they aren’t in love with.

 

That being said, I’ll admit this rule is a main reason I stepped down and why I don’t see myself rejoining admins in any capacity in the future. In fact, I suspect that once I step down from PT, that will be my final experience in AVEN leadership. But those are personal choices for personal reasons, others who are of my opinions might make different choices.

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Moderne Jazzhanden

Re the op:- In my view a mod should only intervene in a discussion on a thread if someone's mode of expressing themselves is considered to be deliberately offensive, as described in the ToS. Moderating Hot Box is thus more of a challenge (I would imagine) than moderating other forums as there is leeway in Hot Box to discuss issues and express viewpoints that might upset some users. So, as a mod it would be necessary to distinguish between a viewpoint and the way it's expressed, whether or not you also wish to imply your own stance by liking certain posts. I am not a mod btw (and never have been) but have not found cause to complain of the way threads I have started in Hot Box have been moderated. 

 

But a mod liking certain posts in a debate is imo controversial. You could argue the mod has no right to do this. On the other hand, why should the mod pretend he has no viewpoint? Impartiality relates to allowing freedom of expression I would say, which does not necessarily imply adopting a mask of pretend objectivity. 

 

In terms of mods representing the members, I would say it depends on whether you view AVEN as 'just' a website or whether AVEN is more than just a website and also constitutes a part of the asexual community.

 

If you take the latter view, then transparency in terms of who decides what a mod can or cannot do, and how and where to object to what is going on if you disagree with the way things are being done, i. e. how and where to debate the changes you want to see, is also important. 

 

From this 'more than just a website' stance one could ask the following:- does electing mods make them responsive and accountable to the membership? Or is more transparency needed? 

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Blaiddmelyn
2 hours ago, FaerieFate said:

This implies that all admods do is make and interpret roles, though, which I disagree with. I'm doing a lot on backend that's not even related to the rules to help new members that are questioning find their sexuality, most of which hasn't been brought to front end yet, and won't be seen by anyone that doesn't follow my threads. 

 

There's a lot of resources to do a lot more than be judge and jury if admods want to use it.

Fair enough. As most AVENites who've met me in person can attest, I don't get too involved in how the site runs and am generally clueless about the various politics. Didn't mean to demean what you do so apologies if I offended you. I'll add on, "I also understand they do some stuff on the backend to keep the site functioning, but I'm still not sure they're sitting in some kind of Parliamentary democracy with the BoD as PM." Feel free to correct if that's still wrong :)

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Skullery Maid
20 hours ago, SithGirl said:

Yeah, I never really saw a reason for the elections since I didn't feel Mods represent members as much as just do what the BoD and Admods don't. It's like hiring a manager for a McD's, except once promoted to manager, the worker is no longer expected to take the side of the other workers but just be a voice for the franchise owner. Why ask the other workers who they want as manager when it doesn't matter since they're a voice piece? 

This. 

 

AVEN isn't ours. The United States belongs to all of us... our representatives are supposed to, well, represent us, because it's literally our country. 

 

AVEN does not belong to the members. We're here by courtesy, just like when we walk into a McDonald's. Just like it's the manager's job to uphold the owner's rules, so too the mods have to uphold the BoD rules. Voting for the BoD would be far more meaningful, but to my own legal knowledge, this would have to be a publicly traded company before public voting rights kicked in. 

 

I know this upsets people who think AVEN should be like their own Facebook feed, but sorry, tisn't. But hey, you still do have your own Facebook feeds, your Twitter feeds, your ig feeds, your snaps, your stories, your YouTube channels... 

 

The world has so many avenues for all of us to nonstop spout our opinions. AVEN just isn't one of them. To me, that's not an offensive concept. 

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Moderne Jazzhanden
23 minutes ago, Skullery Maid said:

AVEN does not belong to the members. We're here by courtesy, just like when we walk into a McDonald's. 

If AVEN is just a website, I agree. 🙂

 

If it's more than just a website, if it's a community, I disagree. ☹️

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Skullery Maid
Just now, Moderne Jazzhanden said:

If AVEN is just a website, I agree. 🙂

 

If it's more than just a website, if it's a community, I disagree. ☹️

I would argue that your point makes the rules more, not less, valid.

 

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Moderne Jazzhanden
25 minutes ago, Skullery Maid said:

I would argue that your point makes the rules more, not less, valid.

 

I would argue that my second point makes who controls what the rules are a key issue. 

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Skullery Maid
5 minutes ago, Moderne Jazzhanden said:

I would argue that my second point makes who controls what the rules are a key issue. 

I would agree. 😂

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Janus DarkFox
1 hour ago, Moderne Jazzhanden said:

From this 'more than just a website' stance one could ask the following:- does electing mods make them responsive and accountable to the membership? Or is more transparency needed? 

Transparency fall onto the responsibilities of the Declassification Team.  The transparency in our cases means releasing most Admod, Policy and Report Threads after sensitive information is taken out, usually for the safety and the security of the Member, AVEN and Data Protection as a whole.  Some information cannot be made Readable for various reasons and rules.  All released content is in the Admod Archives under Site Comments for anyone to read.

 

DT is elected in for this transparency viewing of Admod content among other reasons as overall staff in my view.

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Moderne Jazzhanden

That all sounds very reasonable. 🙂

 

But it also seems somewhat labyrinthine, as if you'd have to conduct some sort of research project to try and assess what's going on. It all seems somewhat abstruse and off-putting. 😐

 

Is there no way to make this more accessible in a user friendly way? 

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Sally
2 hours ago, Moderne Jazzhanden said:

If AVEN is just a website, I agree. 🙂

 

If it's more than just a website, if it's a community, I disagree. ☹️

It's a website that's a community which has private ownership -- and the Board of Directors is legally responsible for decisions, as delegated by the owner.  The admods carry out those decisions, partly by enforcing the TOS.  

 

Toocomplexdidn'tread: It's  someone's house we're invited into.  

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Janus DarkFox
39 minutes ago, Moderne Jazzhanden said:

That all sounds very reasonable. 🙂

 

But it also seems somewhat labyrinthine, as if you'd have to conduct some sort of research project to try and assess what's going on. It all seems somewhat abstruse and off-putting. 😐

 

Is there no way to make this more accessible in a user friendly way? 

Possibly moving the Adomds Archive to somewhere else may help.  I know that due to way the last comment is made, the threads are usually slotted into towards several pages back, once the Backlog is cleared, new threads would be guaranteed to be on the first page.  There isn't a way to re-order the threads without making a comment in them which is Thread Necromancy.

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ithaca
On 11/1/2019 at 7:57 PM, Pumpkin Spice Eggnog Latte said:

Pretty much what daveb said.  I even issued a few concerns about how this could affect modding or where I felt the line should be.  I still want to be able to have conversations about the validity of labels but in the right areas.  Not in a thread where somebody is calling themself a cupiosexual.  I’ve even posted about how I felt about autismgender in hotbox once and had somebody explain why they identified as autismgender and my mind changed from “that’s offensive never use it ever” to “okay, only people on the spectrum can use it otherwise that’s a bit offensive”.  I like that I had that conversation but I would not have had the space to have it if I couldn’t say my beliefs at the time.  But I also don’t believe I should be going into random people’s threads and saying “you’re using this label wrong”

 

Pumpkin, I'd like to second some of what you say here. God knows how many labels I find absurd, but I don't think it's appropriate to go into forums attended by newbies and start presenting my opinions as facts (e.g. "X-sexual has been made up in the last 2 years by 1 person on the internet and doesn't really make any sense at all, it would be pointless to use it" or "most people think this label is useless") no matter how much I think I would be educating people or making the world a favour. Which I might think.

 

There's 2 main reasons why I wouldn't do that:

1- it's honestly just a bit shit to storm a newbie's thread like that. They're here to figure themselves out, and if in that journey they take on labels that make my smoothie come out of my nose due to hysterical laughing, it's not my place to say that. 

2- and this is more specific to people with a recognisable position on the forums: the discussion around having a responsibility. I am now not in the BOD, nor Admods or any other group, but I still understand that my name can be recognisable by quite a few people (including newbies who stumble on my poorly-written pinned posts in several forums) and there can be confusion about who I am or what I do here for some (hopefully not many). Because of my PAST positions I do not personally dare to misrepresent AVEN, no matter how much I may personally disagree with some things. Which I do. I hope current Admods will understand what I mean, and take their influence and role to represent AVEN's values seriously, even when it comes to things they don't agree with.

 

So the question to me, to reply to the OP, is not "why are we elected" but "why are we running for this position". 

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FaerieFate
4 hours ago, ithaca said:

2- and this is more specific to people with a recognisable position on the forums: the discussion around having a responsibility. I am now not in the BOD, nor Admods or any other group, but I still understand that my name can be recognisable by quite a few people (including newbies who stumble on my poorly-written pinned posts in several forums) and there can be confusion about who I am or what I do here for some (hopefully not many). Because of my PAST positions I do not personally dare to misrepresent AVEN, no matter how much I may personally disagree with some things. Which I do. I hope current Admods will understand what I mean, and take their influence and role to represent AVEN's values seriously, even when it comes to things they don't agree with.

As someone that's been in and out of the backroom myself (with my own poorly written pined threads) I know exactly what you mean.

 

I see a lot of newbies come in and ask for help with labels in my thread or like posts in my thread. And I know they look up to me because they follow me soon after or they start quoting my thread either to help people that are also questioning or in definition debates. And I'm like "I see why you look up to me. I been there, thinking that these staff that are so knowledgeable making these threads. But I promise, I'm just a rando just trying to figure themselves out just like everyone else."

 

I spent a lot of time on my threads and am proud of them, but they're far from perfect, and I'm even less so. Lol

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