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MichaelTannock

What are your Invalidation Policy concerns?

Poll on Invalidation Policy concerns  

49 members have voted

This poll is closed to new votes
  1. 1. What are your concerns with the Invalidation Policy?

    • People won't have the freedom to tell others that their identity is wrong.
      11
    • People won't be able to suggest other labels for others to consider.
      19
    • People will be disciplined for merely relaying information.
      27
    • "Asexual" will lose meaning leading to the disintegration of the community.
      29
    • Asexuality will not be taken seriously by outside communities.
      27
    • It won't be possible to create resources to help others understand Asexuality.
      12
    • Education will be impossible without clear definitions.
      32
    • AVEN is not supporting a large section of the Asexual population.
      22
    • The term "Asexual" has become a status symbol so people to stop exploring.
      20
    • AVEN will stop improving its resources for fear of invalidating people.
      18
    • More pressing problems will be ignored to focus on stopping invalidation.
      19
    • Not concerned.
      11


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LeChat
35 minutes ago, Janus DarkFox said:

...I can only see a very vague broad defence based on a persons ability to understand themselves, the water of justice gets dirty amongst the genuinely learning and intellect different according to law differences around the world.

 

In many places, the ‘gay defence’ was a thing for decades...

Right: even if sexual assault happened, jurors and judges can be convinced to let someone off or give them a lighter sentence, when given excuses that sound plausible.

 

TW: discussing sexual assault

Spoiler

For example, in the Nastor case, even though there were dozens of girls and young women who were testifying that they'd been sexually assaulted by Nastor, the judge admitted that--in the beginning of the trial--she did believe Nastor and his lawyer's defense that he was a doctor who was performing a legitimate, medical procedure (later pointed out to not have been a legitimate way of performing a medical procedure), that all the girls and young women must've been mistaken that they were being sexually assaulted.

 

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Pan Ficto. (on hiatus?)
18 hours ago, MichaelTannock said:

Whether they're Asexual or not is no defence, so I don't see how that's a defence of them?

But it *is* trying to be used as a defence.

 

His defence is literally "I didn't know that was wrong because I'm asexual"

 

And not only are certain people seemingly accepting that defence, they're defending that by saying you're invalidating him if you even suggest maybe he's just using the identity as a tool to assault people and get a lesser charge because he can claim "I'm asexual, I didn't know it was wrong".

 

So I can say  "maybe he's not asexual (he probably isn't if he's actively desiring sex with people to the extent he's assaulting them). Maybe he's just using the identity as a shield so he can say he didn't know touching their genitals was wrong" (which is the defence he's using)

 

And the people defending him are saying "how dare you invalidate his identity, if he says he's asexual then he is!"

 

Which means they're supporting the chance of him getting a much lighter sentence if the lawyer can try to prove diminished responsibility due to his 'asexuality'.

 

 

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MichaelTannock

@Pan Ficto. (on hiatus?) I don't see you saying that as invalidation, and I don't think any sane person would excuse the behaviour.

 

Let's swap out Asexuality for Homosexuality: If someone did something of a sexual nature to someone of the opposite sex against their will, does their being gay excuse their actions? If so, then how so? If not, then of what relevance is it?

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GlamRocker

@pook Why the sweater guy?!!!! Is it funny because he's the sweater guy?!!! Is it funny because it's random?!!! Why is it funny?!!! Is it because Stonehenge?!!! What do I NOT GET HERE?!!!!

 

After all the stuff in this thread, you wouldn't think it would be SWEATER GUY that would push me over the edge

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Mackenzie Holiday
4 minutes ago, GlamRocker said:

@pook Why the sweater guy?!!!! Is it funny because he's the sweater guy?!!! Is it funny because it's random?!!! Why is it funny?!!! Is it because Stonehenge?!!! What do I NOT GET HERE?!!!!

 

After all the stuff in this thread, you wouldn't think it would be SWEATER GUY that would push me over the edge

This

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fragglerock
33 minutes ago, GlamRocker said:

@pook Why the sweater guy?!!!! Is it funny because he's the sweater guy?!!! Is it funny because it's random?!!! Why is it funny?!!! Is it because Stonehenge?!!! What do I NOT GET HERE?!!!!

 

After all the stuff in this thread, you wouldn't think it would be SWEATER GUY that would push me over the edge

https://www.asexuality.org/en/topic/168266-aven-specific-memes/page/234/?tab=comments#comment-1063560691

 

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pook
38 minutes ago, GlamRocker said:

@pook Why the sweater guy?!!!! Is it funny because he's the sweater guy?!!! Is it funny because it's random?!!! Why is it funny?!!! Is it because Stonehenge?!!! What do I NOT GET HERE?!!!!

 

After all the stuff in this thread, you wouldn't think it would be SWEATER GUY that would push me over the edge

3fd7d0.jpg

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Pan Ficto. (on hiatus?)
51 minutes ago, MichaelTannock said:

@Pan Ficto. (on hiatus?) I don't see you saying that as invalidation, and I don't think any sane person would excuse the behaviour.

Oh I do agree, but based on what @butterflo was saying, that seems to be something that is actually happening in the Korean asexual community :o Did you read butterflo's previous posts in this thread? My comment was in response to that whole situation mostly. :cake:

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Pan Ficto. (on hiatus?)
2 minutes ago, pook said:

3fd7d0.jpg

I would wear that shirt if I could, it's amazing 💚

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FaerieFate

Members, can we get back on topic of concerns you have with the invalidation policy? Thank you!

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KrysLost

i can sense angery breathing. AiGHt i dont really think there's much more to add to this thread, its kinda dead now. 

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Pan Ficto. (on hiatus?)
On 11/6/2019 at 9:08 AM, pook said:

I wonder if he's single :wub:

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MichaelTannock

I left the poll up for eight days, and forty-seven members have voted, do you think it is okay if I close it now?

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Knight of Cydonia

Given the poll has been up for a little while now and the majority of respondents have selected clear concerns about the policy (e.g. 3 times as many people voted "asexuality will not be taken seriously" and "asexual will lose its meaning", compared to those that answered "not concerned"...), is anything actually going to be done about it? Can we expect an official announcement at some point or something?

 

Anyways. I'm concerned that education has lost a lot of meaning on what is advertised as an Education Network and is used by so many as a resource to learn about asexuality. On other sites I see people that don't take asexuality seriously and an increasingly common sentiment is that anyone can be asexual these days. I believe AVEN's stance on "invalidation" (which disallows "implicit" invalidation, not just explicit) only worsens this problem. We should be able to provide information, such as with AVEN's own definitions of asexuality, and share our experiences without being seen as invalidating. There is also hypocrisy in that it seems so much more acceptable for people to say "yes, it sounds like you're asexual!" than anything close to a suggestion that someone isn't asexual.

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LeChat
47 minutes ago, MichaelTannock said:

I left the poll up for eight days, and forty-seven members have voted, do you think it is okay if I close it now?

:) Whatever you'd like, although, I don't know--perhaps, it might be kind/polite to give a 24-hour warning before closing the poll, in case there might be a few others who might want to vote.

 

I didn't vote because I couldn't decide; I understand many of the points others brought up. However, I can share examples of what happened on Reddit, where there weren't any invalidation rules: people of color who were asking a question and talking about their experiences of racism were downvoted and/or others criticized them for talking about their experiences of racism; other people who'd try to discuss with others how, despite not being a person of color or seemingly LGBT+, they still experienced discrimination from others throughout their life, who'd assumed that they were these identities were downvoted by several people and criticized by a few who bothered to comment (who said that, even though they'd experienced discrimination that was painful, it still didn't matter because the person wasn't a person of color or LGBT+).

 

Well, that poster assumed that they must be straight at the time, even though they weren't; no one bothered to think or comment that, perhaps, they were LGBT+ and weren't aware of it or, perhaps, were mixed-race but didn't know it. Everyone automatically assumed that the person was straight and not a person of color, and therefore, didn't have the right to complain about others assuming and mistreating them/making cruel comments about them.

 

It's pretty cruel of strangers who don't know a person, to say that their painful struggle with depression and suicidal thoughts because of being mistreated doesn't matter, just because others, online, are all assuming they're straight or because they can't relate to someone who's experienced discrimination based on being gender non-conforming, having a different skin color from others, etc.

 

That's why having invalidation policies is important: groups of others who assume they know what a person is or isn't could be completely wrong about someone's sexual orientation, their race, etc., just because the OP might not know their own orientation at that moment in time or if they're mixed race or not.

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MichaelTannock

@Knight of Cydonia My idea was to address the concerns from the poll.
But I'm having doubts over whether that's possible, and I'm starting to think actions would be better than words. i.e. if members can see how the Admod team will enforce the policy.

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Pan Ficto. (on hiatus?)
3 hours ago, MichaelTannock said:

members can see how the Admod team will enforce the policy.

We can never see though because all disciplinary stuff is hidden 😕 

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Firefly8
3 hours ago, MichaelTannock said:

@Knight of Cydonia My idea was to address the concerns from the poll.
But I'm having doubts over whether that's possible, and I'm starting to think actions would be better than words. i.e. if members can see how the Admod team will enforce the policy.

So the concerns in the poll will only be addressed by showing how mods enforce the policy? I was kinda hoping for more...

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MichaelTannock
5 minutes ago, Pan Ficto. (on hiatus?) said:

We can never see though because all disciplinary stuff is hidden 😕 

Well, you have a point there.

I meant that members would see they're not being cracked down on for making suggestions.

There goes my hope for at least that then.

 

2 minutes ago, Firefly8 said:

So the concerns in the poll will only be addressed by showing how mods enforce the policy? I was kinda hoping for more...

I was also hoping to do more, but all attempts I've seen to address concerns even before the poll seemed to go nowhere.

 

I'll be honest, the way this subject has been discussed has made me feel pessimistic about any resolution.

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Anthracite_Impreza

I just wanna say @MichaelTannock, I gotta admire your efforts to actually listen to the members and come up with concrete solutions. Unfortunately I think you're gonna end up hitting a brick wall cos it would appear upper management have already made their minds up.

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Firefly8

Thank you for trying @MichaelTannock. I feel let down by AVEN, not you.
DYUdV2pVMAAFzxn.jpg

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MichaelTannock

I will close the poll tomorrow, at around the same time.

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gisiebob

I think you can look at switchbacks on a map and wonder why the trail is so long quite easily

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MichaelTannock
41 minutes ago, gisiebob said:

I think you can look at switchbacks on a map and wonder why the trail is so long quite easily

I don't understand?

 

Anyway, I've now closed the poll with 49 votes.

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LeChat
3 hours ago, MichaelTannock said:

I don't understand?...

I'm not 100% sure what it means, either, but, after trying to look up those phrases online and only getting search results about online GPS mapping, my guess would be that perhaps it's meant to be a metaphor (in answer to your thread title, "What Are Your Invalidation Policy Concerns"), meaning something like, "One can read several, previous threads and discussions about 'invalidation' and understand why others are concerned quite easily."

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gisiebob
8 hours ago, LeChat said:

I'm not 100% sure what it means, either, but, after trying to look up those phrases online and only getting search results about online GPS mapping, my guess would be that perhaps it's meant to be a metaphor (in answer to your thread title, "What Are Your Invalidation Policy Concerns"), meaning something like, "One can read several, previous threads and discussions about 'invalidation' and understand why others are concerned quite easily."

oh, right. a switchback is when a trail turns back on itself, can end up looking like a curvy snake on a map. it's for steep climbs in elevation, taking a longer route on purpose for a shorter rise over run. and it's not just for the hiker's benefit, a trail going straight up the mountain turns into stream when the rain comes and before long erosion makes that a rock gully. it's a matter of perspectives, of stopping to think before saying "naw I'm just going to cut through here" that maybe someone designed something for a reason. 

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