AVEN's policy on invalidation

[Guest]

21 minutes ago, FaerieFate said:

How is that the problem. Are you saying that sex-desiring asexuals are invalidating, or that your afraid you won't be able to explain sexuality to them without getting in trouble? 

I'm saying that the very fact that we use AVENs definition of sexual attraction, and that we discuss sexuality and asexuality from that perspective, is what has CAUSED all these claims of invalidation.

 

It's not this angry group of sexuals going around yelling at people (as you pretty much said in your comment earlier) it's literally asexuals, sexuals, and ace-to-sexual people all just having general discussions about attraction, desire, sexuality and asexuality in general. But the very fact that we are all doing that from a certain perspective is what is being called 'invalidating'. Certain members who feel invalidated by said defintions (based on their misconceptions about how sexual people feel) jump in, start arguments and debates, try to catch us out in 'gotchas' then say we are gatekeeping and identity policing etc just because we are sticking by said definition. None of us say "you're not asexual" and we make it very clear it's the definitions we are discussing, not individuals. But that's not enough to prevent the claims of invalidation.

 

There is NO mysterious, angry group of sexuals jumping on newbies to yell at them about how they're not actually asexual or whatever though. That entire scenario (which many are taking as fact, yourself included) just does not exist.

 

I don't know how else to say it, how else to word it, that will somehow make it clearer Y_Y

[Guest]

38 minutes ago, GhostGoesToWail said:

Man, in an ideal world, people would be able to have sex or not have sex and no one will care who, what, when, why, why not, how or how not because son of a butter biscuit, that would be like wanting to know the intimate details and personal identifications associated with who has or hasn't had a bowel movement in the past 24 hours.

Not sure how anyone would find a sex partner in that world... but maybe that's just me not understanding how "normal folk" tick. 🤷‍♀️

[Guest]

Y'all can we stop talking about definitions for a second and talk about HOW we talk about definitions?

 

People are mean.  And I mean they are REALLY mean sometimes.  A newbie makes a thread and says something and suddenly people are jumping down their throats and definition debates happen.

 

How is this helpful?  Like to anybody?  Congratulations, you made your point on the internet.  Other than that...nobody wins.  The newbie gets upset and everyone argues.

 

I really don't care where you stand on this debate.  You can believe that the definition of an asexual is a purple seahorse from Mars for all I care.  You can even go into a thread and say "well according to this random definition an asexual is a martian seahorse".  And I'm not saying that as "every definition is right".  NO!  I GENUINELY DON'T CARE ABOUT THE DEFINITION DEBATE!

 

The truth is people will come to their own conclusions.  Personally, I would go "ummm...that doesn't sound right, let's see what other people think".  But it's not my job to yell at people because they used a definition wrong.

 

 

[daveb]

2 minutes ago, Pumpkin Spice Kale Chips said:

Y'all can we stop talking about definitions for a second and talk about HOW we talk about definitions?

 

People are mean.  And I mean they are REALLY mean sometimes.  A newbie makes a thread and says something and suddenly people are jumping down their throats and definition debates happen.

 

How is this helpful?  Like to anybody?  Congratulations, you made your point on the internet.  Other than that...nobody wins.  The newbie gets upset and everyone argues.

 

I really don't care where you stand on this debate.  You can believe that the definition of an asexual is a purple seahorse from Mars for all I care.  You can even go into a thread and say "well according to this random definition an asexual is a martian seahorse".  And I'm not saying that as "every definition is right".  NO!  I GENUINELY DON'T CARE ABOUT THE DEFINITION DEBATE!

 

The truth is people will come to their own conclusions.  Personally, I would go "ummm...that doesn't sound right, let's see what other people think".  But it's not my job to yell at people because they used a definition wrong.

 

 

Exactly.  

[crazy ace]

4 minutes ago, Pumpkin Spice Kale Chips said:

Y'all can we stop talking about definitions for a second and talk about HOW we talk about definitions?

 

People are mean.  And I mean they are REALLY mean sometimes.  A newbie makes a thread and says something and suddenly people are jumping down their throats and definition debates happen.

 

How is this helpful?  Like to anybody?  Congratulations, you made your point on the internet.  Other than that...nobody wins.  The newbie gets upset and everyone argues.

 

I really don't care where you stand on this debate.  You can believe that the definition of an asexual is a purple seahorse from Mars for all I care.  You can even go into a thread and say "well according to this random definition an asexual is a martian seahorse".  And I'm not saying that as "every definition is right".  NO!  I GENUINELY DON'T CARE ABOUT THE DEFINITION DEBATE!

 

The truth is people will come to their own conclusions.  Personally, I would go "ummm...that doesn't sound right, let's see what other people think".  But it's not my job to yell at people because they used a definition wrong.

Perfect.

[Guest]

5 minutes ago, Pumpkin Spice Kale Chips said:

Y'all can we stop talking about definitions for a second and talk about HOW we talk about definitions? [etc.]

 

3 minutes ago, daveb said:

Exactly.  

 

1 minute ago, crazy ace said:

Perfect.

Nope.

[Guest]

12 minutes ago, Pumpkin Spice Kale Chips said:

 

 

People are mean.  And I mean they are REALLY mean sometimes.  A newbie makes a thread and says something and suddenly people are jumping down their throats and definition debates happen.

Who is doing all this yelling at and invalidating of new members? Because yeah.. I've been involved in many of these topics recently and it's always established members who are just trying to start arguments with other established members. You must have been hanging out in different threads than I do which is weird because I've been super active here lately. 

 

(Edit; but yeah, those of us who have been involved in this for the past few months know exactly where this is coming from, and it's actually nothing to do with new members getting yelled at. Just to clarify. We all agree that no one should yell at new members and we all understand that's against the ToS.)

 

12 minutes ago, Pumpkin Spice Kale Chips said:

Y'all can we stop talking about definitions for a second and talk about HOW we talk about definitions?

That's exactly what we've been trying to explain for the past 4 frikken pages  Y_Y

[daveb]

I'm trying to listen to all of the objections people have to the OP/Board statement, but I'm having trouble pulling out the actual objections from all of the emotions and everything else, much less figuring out how to summarize them. And at this point I'm not sure it would even help.

[Guest]

My reason for agreeing with the statement is because I see this:

 

"I'm a grey a because I don't get turned on when I see my boyfriend."

 

"lol you're totes sexual.  Stop fooling yourself"

 

Instead of something like

 

"I know you didn't mean it but that statement comes off as a little antisexual.  You know, there are a lot of sexuals who feel that way too.  You can identify however you want but I just wanted to let you know that this feeling isn't exclusive to greys.  Anyway have some cake  "

 

I just want people to be nicer.

[Guest]

Does it feel to anyone else like certain mods and admins are intentionally not understanding the point being made?

 

@MichaelTannocktried really hard to understand our perspective and I applaud them for that. But it seems like certain others are literally just skimming, refusing to read properly what's being said, then claiming no one is making valid arguments or logical objections. 

 

The blatant disregard for what has been said here is actually starting to get a little worrying, if these are the people who are meant to be in charge of things around here : /

 

2 minutes ago, Pumpkin Spice Kale Chips said:

My reason for agreeing with the statement is because I see this:

 

"I'm a grey a because I don't get turned on when I see my boyfriend."

 

"lol you're totes sexual.  Stop fooling yourself"

 

Instead of something like

 

"I know you didn't mean it but that statement comes off as a little antisexual.  You know, there are a lot of sexuals who feel that way too.  You can identify however you want but I just wanted to let you know that this feeling isn't exclusive to greys.  Anyway have some cake  "

Y_Y 

 

Somebody has literally read nothing of what's actually been said here, and clearly doesn't actually spend much time in the threads where we all literally say exactly what was just outlined in the last paragraph there (which is every frikken thread we are involved in, bar a few minor incidents from certain members which we all agree are totally not okay)

 

Where the hell have you been? 

[Guest]

1 minute ago, Pan Ficto. (on hiatus?) said:

The blatant disregard for what has been said here is actually starting to get a little worrying, if these are the people who are meant to be in charge of things around here : /

Starting to get? Your patience is incredible.

[Guest]

There are also people who say what I just said.  Just because some people say good things doesn't mean everyone does it.

 

This happens more often than people think.  AVEN has gained a reputation for this in other areas of the internet.  There are multiple stories of newbies who run off because the members ganged up on them.

 

You won't find these stories on AVEN.  These guys left for other places that they felt were more friendly.  And I honestly don't blame them.  If your first impression of AVEN is a definition debate after one "am I asexual" question or getting yelled at for using a definition "wrong" then why would you want to stick around?

 

Btw the thread is too long and everyone types too fast.  So fuck it, listen to me make my point this time.  I'm a member too and I just want people to be nice to each other okay!

[SithLord]

5 minutes ago, Pan Ficto. (on hiatus?) said:

Does it feel to anyone else like certain mods and admins are intentionally not understanding the point being made?

 

@MichaelTannocktried really hard to understand our perspective and I applaud them for that. But it seems like certain others are literally just skimming, refusing to read properly what's being said, then claiming no one is making valid arguments or logical objections. 

 

The blatant disregard for what has been said here is actually starting to get a little worrying, if these are the people who are meant to be in charge of things around here : /

Honestly I came to that conclusion when I fell asleep at page 7. Now we're at page 11 and nothing has changed. 

[Guest]

13 minutes ago, Pumpkin Spice Kale Chips said:

"I'm a grey a because I don't get turned on when I see my boyfriend."

 

"lol you're totes sexual.  Stop fooling yourself"

1) no one is saying that's okay here. And we all agree it's against ToS if someone does say that. And that's totally not an okay way to talk to someone, especially a newbie. But it's a lot rarer than people (ie you) are making out in this thread and it will obviously be met with disciplinary action if someone was actually speaking that way to anyone, not just newbs. We all agree on that. 

 

 

13 minutes ago, Pumpkin Spice Kale Chips said:

"I know you didn't mean it but that statement comes off as a little antisexual.  You know, there are a lot of sexuals who feel that way too.  You can identify however you want but I just wanted to let you know that this feeling isn't exclusive to greys.  Anyway have some cake  "

2 that's literally what we all say, how we all word our responses. But your exact comment there IS the type of response that will be meet with indignant claims of invalidation. THAT'S THE ISSUE. 

 

Honestly I just can't reiterate it anymore though. Multiple members now (myself, Serran, Mysticus, Snao, Alej, Chihiro, and others) have tried to explain this so many ways and in so many different variations in the hopes that it will sink in. But you and certain other mods and admins have made it blatantly clear you've literally just skipped everything we have said so you can keep on this dogmatic, bullshit hate train based entirely in fantasy. Better that than to actually examine what's really happening here, right? Safer just to continue to make these literally fake accusations and ignore everything we say, ignore all our explanations. It's easier for you that way I guess.

 

 

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, Pumpkin Spice Kale Chips said:

There are also people who say what I just said.  Just because some people say what I said doesn't mean everyone does it.

 

This happens more often than people think.  AVEN has gained a reputation for this in other areas of the internet.  There are multiple stories of newbies who run off because the members ganged up on them.

 

You won't find these stories on AVEN.  These guys left for other places that they felt were more friendly.  And I honestly don't blame them.  If your first impression of AVEN is a definition debate after one "am I asexual" question or getting yelled at for using a definition "wrong" then why would you want to stick around?

As I said before... I don't agree with that automatically being a loss. What y'all call feeling ganged up on and being invalidated is often enough what I'd call someone throwing an entitled tantrum because they can't handle their ideology being challenged in even the slightest way whatsoever. AVEN doesn't need any more of that.

[Guest]

8 minutes ago, daveb said:

I'm trying to listen to all of the objections people have to the OP/Board statement, but I'm having trouble pulling out the actual objections from all of the emotions and everything else, much less figuring out how to summarize them. And at this point I'm not sure it would even help.

Easy summary then:

 

Sex loving aces are becoming a big thing on social media, news articles, ace dating sites etc in the last few years especially. This is making many aces very uncomfortable sharing their spaces with people who love sex and seek it out for a few reasons.

 

1) ace spaces used to be safe from sexual advances... now aces are being sexually harassed / having to put up with sexual advances from other asexual identifying people

 

2) aces used to be free to discuss how they feel about lacking desire for sex and all without people chiming in every time with "but im ace and I love sex!!!! Being asexual has nothing to do with not loving sex!" ... and this is pushing asexuals away from their own spaces. And now they can't even discuss how this makes them feel, because that would be "invalidating" sex loving aces, essentially shutting them off from the one space they are meant to be able to escape the sexual world and feel comfortable expressing their difficulties with it on

 

3) people are claiming people run around saying "You arent ace", when in reality, the majority of the debates are "this experience is the same as normal sexuality, many sexuals feel this way too" ... and that has run people off screaming invalidation. Which is what the BoD seems to want to end, but to do so would end any educational sharing of experiences. And admods are saying nothing has changed, while admitting things have changed....so I still havent gotten an answer on that cause Tannock is about as clear as muddy water and contradicting themselves. 

 

4) no one has answered on if correcting a very bad and rather anti-sexual definition with AVENs own definitions would be counted as invalidating and people would like an answer 

[Philip027]

Quote

Does it feel to anyone else like certain mods and admins are intentionally not understanding the point being made?

It's not much different from the supposed "sex-favorable asexuals" saying they're being discredited by people here telling them they're not allowed to like sex, even when it's pointed out over and over that nobody is saying that (rather that it's the desire/pursuit of sex with others that sets sexuals apart from asexuals, because that's more or less what it means to be sexually attracted to said others).  Nobody here is trying to claim asexuals can't enjoy sex, and if anyone tries to do so, they're promptly corrected by pretty much everyone else.

 

There's a very peculiar sort of shared "head in the sand" behavior going on here.

[Guest]

Ummm... @Serran I just answered number 4.  See above.

 

Do people think having a "sex free zone" would be useful?  Somewhere that is for aces who are not into sex?  Would that help?  It's not a completely full fledged idea but it's a start.

[Guest]

9 minutes ago, Serran said:

Easy summary then:

 

Sex loving aces are becoming a big thing on social media, news articles, ace dating sites etc in the last few years especially. This is making many aces very uncomfortable sharing their spaces with people who love sex and seek it out for a few reasons.

 

1) ace spaces used to be safe from sexual advances... now aces are being sexually harassed / having to put up with sexual advances from other asexual identifying people

 

2) aces used to be free to discuss how they feel about lacking desire for sex and all without people chiming in every time with "but im ace and I love sex!!!! Being asexual has nothing to do with not loving sex!" ... and this is pushing asexuals away from their own spaces. And now they can't even discuss how this makes them feel, because that would be "invalidating" sex loving aces, essentially shutting them off from the one space they are meant to be able to escape the sexual world and feel comfortable expressing their difficulties with it on

 

3) people are claiming people run around saying "You arent ace", when in reality, the majority of the debates are "this experience is the same as normal sexuality, many sexuals feel this way too" ... and that has run people off screaming invalidation. Which is what the BoD seems to want to end, but to do so would end any educational sharing of experiences. And admods are saying nothing has changed, while admitting things have changed....so I still havent gotten an answer on that cause Tannock is about as clear as muddy water and contradicting themselves. 

 

4) no one has answered on if correcting a very bad and rather anti-sexual definition with AVENs own definitions would be counted as invalidating and people would like an answer 

Please @daveb, @Pumpkin Spice Kale Chips, @FaerieFate, and everyone else who is making these ridiculous claims that angry sexuals are running around on AVEN blatantly invalidating newbs etc.

 

Please, please read Serran's comment here. It's a literal summary of everything we've been trying to say, all of which is just being blatantly ignored and denied.

 

Ah okay wait, I see Pumpkin already responded:

 

5 minutes ago, Pumpkin Spice Kale Chips said:

Ummm... @Serran I just answered number 4.  See above.

 

Do people think having a "sex free zone" would be useful?  Somewhere that is for aces who are not into sex?  Would that help?  It's not a completely full fledged idea but it's a start.

Another blatant dismissal of what we are trying to say.

 

And really fucking ironic that the proposed solution here is that aces who don't desire sex need a safe space on the Asexuality Visibility and Education Network, that's actually funny. But I don't know whether to laugh or cry at this point.

 

Do you hear yourself?

 

 

[Guest]

1 minute ago, Pumpkin Spice Kale Chips said:

Do people think having a "sex free zone" would be useful?  Somewhere that is for aces who are not into sex?

Good grief.

[Philip027]

Quote

Do people think having a "sex free zone" would be useful?  Somewhere that is for aces who are not into sex?  Would that help?  It's not a completely full fledged idea but it's a start.

No, it wouldn't.  That's not related to the issue at hand at all.  Asexuals aren't a bunch of prudes or something, if that's what you're getting at.

 

We just don't want basically anyone to claim the asexuality label based on whatever bs criteria they want.  That's a belittling of what asexuality means and represents, and is its own form of erasure and invalidation (yet seems to be perfectly A-OK to the staff around here)

[SithLord]

4 minutes ago, Pumpkin Spice Kale Chips said:

Do people think having a "sex free zone" would be useful?  Somewhere that is for aces who are not into sex?  Would that help?  It's not a completely full fledged idea but it's a start.

Some sex-repulsed individuals have expressed this desire in the past, but it's not a solution to the current problem. 

[Guest]

At this point I'm really REALLY trying to listen but all I'm getting is sass.

 

So I'm out.  I tried.

 

I'm going to go greet some newbies or something.

[Guest]

Just now, SithGirl said:

Some sex-repulsed individuals have expressed this desire in the past, but it's not a solution to the current problem. 

Nor does it actually have anything to do with the current problem, no matter what the cupio narrative wants people to believe.

[Guest]

Just now, Pumpkin Spice Kale Chips said:

Ummm... @Serran I just answered number 4.  See above.

 

Do people think having a "sex free zone" would be useful?  Somewhere that is for aces who are not into sex?  Would that help?  It's not a completely full fledged idea but it's a start.

You didnt though. You gave an example of exactly what 99% of the debates are as the right way to post and an example of a tiny minority as the wrong... and the wrong was already punished by admods. 

 

So, either the whole OP is a fake PR stunt to try to make people happy without actually doing anything, since people already got warned for saying you are sexual, stop fooling yourself. So it wasnt "lax", or not enforced. 

 

Or, as they added things like "asexuality is not a spectrum" to the list of punishable things, then admods will punish for a lot more now. 

 

So, again... if a user says "I am asexual cause I dont get turned on by looking at people, even though I desire sex with them, so i dont experience sexual attraction" and someone posts "According to AVENs definition, sexual attraction is the desire to share your sexuality with someone, so what you are describing is what many would call sexual attraction and is an experience many sexuals share" would that be against the rules now or no?

[SithLord]

Just now, Philip027 said:

We just don't want basically anyone to claim the asexuality label based on whatever bs criteria they want.  That's a belittling of what asexuality means and represents, and is its own form of erasure and invalidation (yet seems to be perfectly A-OK to the staff around here)

This. Very much, THIS!

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, SithGirl said:

Some sex-repulsed individuals have expressed this desire in the past, but it's not a solution to the current problem. 

Pumpkin Spice Kale Chips didn't even say 'sex repulsed asexuals', they said 'asexuals who aren't into sex'

 

.....As though the normal asexual experience is loving and desiring sex and the odd ones out are the ones who don't really get anything out of it. 

 

And that, friends, sums up the entire issue better than almost anything else could. 

[Guest]

Yeah honestly I think the sex free zone being for aces who dont desire sex, putting them in the outlier groups like greys and demis and trans forums... would probably smack the aces who feel cast out already even harder. 

 

But it would benefit repulsed aces. 

[Guest]

7 minutes ago, Pumpkin Spice Kale Chips said:

At this point I'm really REALLY trying to listen but all I'm getting is sass.

Yes because you blatantly ignored the past 5 pages where people were calmly and eloquently articulating exactly what the issue is. Then you came in with sass, threw some blatantly false accusations around, and are still choosing to ignore those who are calmly and eloquently articulating the issues that are at hand here (ie Serran).

 

If you ignore everyone who is trying to explain, in favour of spitting your own false narrative about all these hateful sexuals storming around cruelly invalidating newbs, then get mad and storm off as soon as everyone disagrees with you, how the heck are we meant to get anywhere???

[Guest]

14 minutes ago, Pumpkin Spice Kale Chips said:

At this point I'm really REALLY trying to listen but all I'm getting is sass.

Aven glitched