Struggling with feeling fake

[Awren]

I am non-binary. I know this. The problem is, I look very feminine: petite, delicate facial features, hourglass figure with large breast, etc. Women's clothes are the most comfortable for me due to my shape. I have some medical issues that mean I would probably have problems wearing a binder and I am large enough that a sports bra still leaves me obviously female. For the most part I have made peace with how I look. The problem is, since I look so feminine I feel like a fake when I say that I am non-binary. 

 

Is anyone else non-binary, but looks very much like your assigned gender, or possibly you choose to look like your assigned gender? If so, do you struggle with feeling fake and how do you handle it? 

[uhtred]

In addition to identifying somewhere on the scale of male->non-binary->female, there is a separate axis of how strongly you identify.   For some people gender identity is a critical part of their image of self, for others it really doesn't matter much.  

For example I'm biologically male and identify as such, but I don't consider it important. For someone like me, if you happen to look like a particular gender there is no reason not to let people assume you are that gender.    For others, who's sense of self-gender is very strong, that doesn't work. 

 

I only recently because aware of this question of strength of gender identity, when a gay friend of mine mentioned that his gender identity was extremely strong, that he wold rather die than be female. He was amazed that to me it wasn't a big deal, and was surprised that to him it was.  Clearly people vary on this a lot. 

 

So the point of my ramble is that depending on how important gender identity is to you, it may or may not make sense for you to just let people identify you as they wish. 

[Awren]

That's basically where I've been. I would rather appear more gender neutral, but it doesn't really bother me when someone identifies me as female.

 

Part of what brought this up is that I am going to a conference soon where there will be pronoun pins for participants to pin to their name badges. I plan to get the pin for they/them, but I know that I appear female, so I worry that people will think I am taking the pin to get attention or something rather than as an actual expression of gender identity. The fact that I have both social anxiety and generalized anxiety disorder means I am probably completely overthinking this, but I'm still interested in other's experiences and opinions.

[anisotrophic]

@Awren personally I love seeing folks of all stripes with "they" pins because it helps normalize that pronoun.

[Scottthespy]

I've chosen to go with the phrase 'I don't care' when it comes to gender, but the label that I've seen on Aven that applies best is "cisgenderless". I think its both a thing you can naturally be and a thing to strive for...basically you feel how you feel but don't care what others call you...thus the 'guess' in my 'gender' slot under my not-avatar. I genuinely enjoy seeing how people online guess at my gender, its interesting to see what people usually think, though I'm sure my username taints opinions somewhat. 

 

Now, cisgenderless specifically refers to people who don't feel like they're any gender, but I think the idea of not caring what pronouns other people use for you is very freeing, if you can manage to get your head into that space. If people ask me about gender in real life, which has only happened when they're questioning themselves or being half joking dicks about the topic, I tend to shrug and say 'I honestly don't care, I feel as I feel and what my body looks like has nothing to do with that'. 

 

I don't think your clothes, activities, or even body shape have anything to do with how you feel in your mind, what you like and want to do with yourself. Your body dictates certain physical capabilities, but that's about it. So if you're happy in your body, its you, there's no faking.

[DuranDuranfan]

Oh, I’m in the same quandary. I’m bigender, but I also look very feminine in terms of body shape. D cup breasts and wide hips. I can wear a binder but it doesn’t make me completely flat. If anything it looks like I have body builder pecs. So I wear t-shirts or button down shirts with horizontal patterns and stripes to give the illusion of a flatter appearance. This is when my masculine side asserts itself. 
 

If your medical problem has to do with your spine, I have spine issues too. One of them is thoracic kyphosis(hunchback). It’s in the early stages but wearing my binder has helped straighten it. I know this because when I first started wearing it, I had headaches during the adjustment period but now that my body is used to it, no more headaches.

[Fraggle Underdark]

So technically I consider myself agender but I'm fine with being seen as male and that works fine with how I want to dress and act. It feels weird to say I'm agender because it's so easy for me to get by. So far AVEN is the only place I've described myself this way, and then only because I saw a lot of existing variety and similar things. And because I'm anonymous here. In fact it feels so weird to say I'm agender that I didn't want to respond to your question at first, ironically.

 

So to answer your question yes it feels kind of fake for me. Or not "fake" really but so many people go through so much hassle and prejudice over it and for me I can just waltz around life dressing and acting like I like. (That is: if I was in a female body I would still want to have short hair and no makeup and wear tshirts and jeans, but then society would see it as a problem while for a male body that's expected.) And I don't mind being seen as male so that's easy too. So it feels like I'm casually jumping onto a bandwagon that other people have sweat and bled for. And if I really cared about being seen as agender then one might say "well you weren't there for the fight but it's good that we all get the benefit" but again I don't mind being seen as male.

 

As for how I handle it I just don't mention it, since it's not that important to me and it's not a battle I'm choosing to fight right now. (I don't mean battling with other GSD folks, I mean identifying that way to friends and others and having to argue that you can be agender and still conform this much to gender expectations for your perceived gender.)

 

That said I think it's great that there are others who conform to visual expectations of their perceived gender (I'm probably not using the right terms) and still identify as non-binary or similar. I saw something about how there's no wrong way to look non-binary. And like with aces I suppose no one else can tell you what gender you identify with. Rock on.

[Rynn]

I feel you. I look very female. I do wear binders, but it's not nearly enough to really hide.. ya know. Tiny frame, big chest... The place where I got my binders didn't even have any for people with such a tiny frame and big chest. I literally had to have it manually adjusted.

It does bother me that this is how I look, and I am slowly amassing more masculine/feature hiding clothing (but I hate shopping, and shopping in the male section when you look like I look.. I mean I feel judged. And I shouldn't, but I do. Also, money.) but that's never going to be enough to make me look non-feminine.

 

What makes me feel fake is my hair. I like it long. It helps me hide the parts that do give me dysphoria. But when I tell people I'm nonbinary, the first thing they advise is to cut it off. Like, I'll tell them that I want top surgery, and they immediately go "No, you should start by cutting off your hair." But I still need my hair to hide my body behind! Also, don't you think I've thought of that myself? And why should all afab enbies have short hair anyways? That isn't a requirement for men, women, or amab enbies! Aargh! (I should say that none of the trans people I've met have made this comment, ever. It's just 'helpful' cis people.)

The fact that long hair is REALLY uncommon among afab enbies also really doesn't help. It makes me feel like I don't belong.

 

I'm on the waiting list for the gender team, and I'm really scared that when I finally have my intake conversation with the gender team therapist, they'll tell me I'm not non-binary enough to get treatment, and that I shouldn't waste resources they could have used on other, more worthy, trans people, because I don't want to cut off my hair. (Obviously a gender therapist wouldn't be that harsh, that's just my own insecurities talking.) That fear really really seriously fucks with me, because it makes me feel like I'm hurting other trans people, just because I need help too. The fact that they're currently severely understaffed and can't take all applicants in a timely fashion really doesn't help with this.

 

So yeah, I feel you.

What helps me is to realize that I'm unjustly holding myself to binary trans standards. I keep feeling fake, because subconsciously I still believe that in order to be nonbinary, I need to be masculine, look masculine and identify with masculinity, and I'm not and I don't. I'm just also not feminine. That's the whole point of this agender thing. But society doesn't have a code for what 'not masculine, and not feminine, and not both or in between either' is supposed to look like, so now what?

 

Another thing is that I don't currently go by they/them in daily life, because 1, I'm still half a closet case and don't want people to accidentally out me to others, 2, I don't want to be awkward and difficult (I know, I need to work on that), and 3, we don't have a good equivalent of they/them pronouns in Dutch.

What helps me cut myself some slack on that is to realize that if everything was easy, and I wasn't scared that people would reject me for being a crazed SJW if I asked them to call me by they/them, I would've done it years ago. So it's not because I'm 'not really nonbinary', it's just because things that are outside of my control suck right now.

[Awren]

So I want to start by saying thank you to everyone who has replied so far. All of you were saying things that I have been feeling, but that I struggled to put into words. 

 

@DuranDuranfan - My medical issues include respiratory issues, fibromyalgia, and a skin condition. Any one of those would make it difficult for me to wear a binder. I'll admit I have been tempted to  try one, just to see how bad it would be.

 

I don't really care what gender people think I am and that contributes to my feelings of being fake. I do typically wear female clothes, so I feel fake. I don't shop in the men's section because I don't want to deal with the hassle or the side eyes as people try to figure out if I am buying it for myself or if I am shopping for a very tiny male SO. I wear a little makeup, concealer and mascara, because I like looking less tired and having visible eyelashes, so I feel fake. I also am not out locally. This conference I am attending will be the first time I have really told others that I am not female. That is causing a lot of anxiety. 

 

I don't have a good support system for the gender side of things, so that probably also contributes. I am so glad that I can come on here and hear from others who are supportive and who deal with the same issues that I do.

[Snao Cone]

I'm going through a similar struggle right now but I'm not sure if I should dare presume I'm welcome in the non-binary world...which I know is a loaf* of crap and yet I'm still feeling like my T&A and wearing mostly women's clothing disqualify me from challenging gender like that. 

 

*autocorrect, but I choose to ride with it

[Fraggle Underdark]

6 hours ago, Laurann said:

What makes me feel fake is my hair. I like it long.

FWIW I think long hair looks good on everyone, including cismales. (As commented I also think short hair looks good on everyone.) For a while I grew out my hair pretty far because I wanted a good mane  But then it got hot and the point of my long hair was to have it flowing so using a ponytail would defeat the purpose. Even before I considered myself agendered I was growing out my hair and only got rid of it because of heat and hassle (washing etc).

 

Keep in mind that a lot of guys have long hair and there's nothing feminine about it. Hah someone put a picture of Fabio up here recently, a little before my time but I feel like he was an oft-cited example of male beauty in the 80s or something? And for some reason Mel Gibson in Braveheart is coming to mind, hah. But there are lots of less silly examples!  Just what my brain is giving me, like I said I think it looks good and lots of guys have it.

 

Not quite the same thing but I saw an interview with non-binary actor Asia Kate Dillon, who plays the first enby character on mainstream TV IIRC, Taylor Mason on Billions. They said that playing that character was helpful for them because they had felt like a fake for not wanting to change their body and when they saw the script were like "oh, you can do that and that's how I actually feel". They have a buzz cut but it's an example of not having to do change things to be non-binary. No wrong way to be.

[DuranDuranfan]

Well, I have a somewhat feminine looking face structure, and for a while, I had long hair and liked wearing braids. Still do. I recently got it cut and styled like Matt Flynn(Maroon 5 drummer, very good looking if I may add). Although I know in my heart of hearts I’m bigender, I have this fear that if I choose to go into the Men’s bathroom during my masculine phase(if there’s no option of a gender neutral bathroom), I’ll get questioned if my hair is still long. Which is silly because we have laws in place that protect gender identity and expression. But there’s still a lot of ignorance. 

[Rynn]

28 minutes ago, fragglerock said:

Keep in mind that a lot of guys have long hair and there's nothing feminine about it. Hah someone put a picture of Fabio up here recently, a little before my time but I feel like he was an oft-cited example of male beauty in the 80s or something? And for some reason Mel Gibson in Braveheart is coming to mind, hah. But there are lots of less silly examples!  Just what my brain is giving me, like I said I think it looks good and lots of guys have it.

This isn't any less silly, but I've always liked the aesthetic male elves have in any high fantasy setting. Long straight light hair, like mine, is the standard for them. They look kind of non-binary to me.

[Fraggle Underdark]

45 minutes ago, Laurann said:

This isn't any less silly, but I've always liked the aesthetic male elves have in any high fantasy setting. Long straight light hair, like mine, is the standard for them. They look kind of non-binary to me.

Good point yeah, they do look good and almost every fantasy setting treats them as androgynous. 

[Awren]

18 minutes ago, fragglerock said:

Good point yeah, they do look good and almost every fantasy setting treats them as androgynous. 

I like how elves, whether they have short hair or long hair, almost always look androgynous. In a perfect world that's basically how I would want to look: fine features, short pixie cut, and mostly androgynous. And now I feel the need to dress as a high elf for Halloween. 😊

[Snao Cone]

Thoughts on this are starting to make my heartbeat race today, for some reason, and I'd feel terrible for starting my own thread about it because I'm so fucking full of myself and this is not space I'm simply entitled to. I spent years suffering before I accepted my body for what it is, and I didn't think being nonbinary or agender were options for anyone who wasn't thin and androgynously chic. I was quite feminine for a few years, with how I dressed, and now I'm swinging in another direction and it's making me feel more alien to sharing spaces with other women. I HATE being called a "lady" or a "girl" or "miss/mrs/ms" and I want a third gender/gender neutral legal ID once that option is available. But I pass for a woman and I'm fine with she/her, and I suffer through a lot of the things women do or face and benefit from the advantages. I want clothes that make me look good and feel good, which are mostly made for women. I like makeup aesthetically on myself and on people of all genders, which I have always supported and advocated for since grade school. And yet... I'm a bad person for stepping in enby/gq/gnc territory. Because I'm not trans, because I look like a woman, because for 10 years now I have not wanted to chop off my tits. I'm at work but I want to cry. Sorry for dragging down the thread. 

[Fraggle Underdark]

Sorry to hear that @Snao van der Cone  FWIW at least it seems you'll be welcome here on AVEN with whatever identity you like. (I say "seems" because I'm so much newer than you so it's like who am I to say.) Assuming you weren't being purely facetious with your preferred pronouns let me say rock on, my dude.

[Awren]

@Snao van der Cone - You're not dragging down the thread, which started as my anxiety fueled attempt to find people who would understand what I am feeling and be able to relate to it. As everyone has been telling me, there is no right or wrong way to be enby. In fact, what you posted reinforced that for me. I would never tell you that you are not enby because of how you look or what you wear, so why would I tell myself that. Actually, thinking about it, your post helped clarify things for me.

 

Having said that, I am so sorry you are struggling with this too. It is so hard to finally find a label that actually fits but then feel you don't deserve it. We all deserve whatever labels fit us best and make us feel our best. Despite my struggles, I never truly felt comfortable wearing a dress until I accepted that I wasn't truly female. So, virtual hugs and I hope you feel better about your struggles soon. 

[Snao Cone]

1 minute ago, fragglerock said:

FWIW at least it seems you'll be welcome here on AVEN with whatever identity you like.

AVEN is a really good environment for this kind of thing. My own skull...not so much. Thanks, though. 

[Rynn]

17 minutes ago, Awren said:

And now I feel the need to dress as a high elf for Halloween. 😊

Haha I was thinking the same thing! But I already decided to go as a scarecrow, so I can be a 'friend of Dorothy'  (I hope someone gets that reference)

 

13 minutes ago, Snao van der Cone said:

Sorry for dragging down the thread. 

 

13 minutes ago, Snao van der Cone said:

I'd feel terrible for starting my own thread about it because I'm so fucking full of myself and this is not space I'm simply entitled to.

When I do this (saying sorry for having negative feelings and taking up space) my friend says "You and your feelings are not a burden." my therapist says "It's important to express your feelings, and you shouldn't keep silent just because you think others will react negatively. How others react is for them to decide, and not for you to worry about."

I think they're right. 

 

You don't always have to be happy and bubbly. That's not human. Expressing negative feelings is important, and you are exactly in the right place to do it. Digital space isn't limited. You're not taking it away from anyone else. Please stop being so hard on yourself ❤️

[Snao Cone]

Thanks @Awren and @Laurann. It's very helpful to hear about your experiences, and getting words of encouragement is a great help to me. 

[PoeciMeta]

@Snao van der Cone, no one isn't welcome in the non-binary world. If anything, we need more people to show that all enbies don't look like elves , which would be nice for everyone to know. Then I wouldn't be constantly misgendered just for liking my hair long. It's just some keratin outgrowths, seriously > <'

Appearance is a matter of taste, but gender is about comfort and self-respect. When you call yourself something, you should feel like you're respecting yourself and nothing bloody else. 

[Awren]

3 hours ago, Poe's Creep Meta said:

Appearance is a matter of taste, but gender is about comfort and self-respect. When you call yourself something, you should feel like you're respecting yourself and nothing bloody else. 

This is really helpful and I need to reword my thinking with it in mind.

 

So, what I need to tell myself going forward: I look feminine because of genetics and I wear a little makeup because I like how it makes me look. None of this makes me fake. I am non-binary not because of how I look, but because of who I am.

 

Now to make my brain accept this. 

[Snao Cone]

I think it's also important to remember that being non-binary doesn't invalidate your perspective on binary gender issues. We can still bond and unite on issues women face even if we don't fully feel connected to that gender, because we face challenges due to it based on how we're perceived. So being non-binary isn't excusing ourselves from the conversation, just like how being asexual doesn't free us from issues like sexual harassment, expectations, and objectification.

[Bloc]

10 hours ago, Laurann said:

Haha I was thinking the same thing! But I already decided to go as a scarecrow, so I can be a 'friend of Dorothy'  (I hope someone gets that reference)

Not sure if I got this correctly, but it sounds pretty gay to me.

 

On the topic: I don't present femme at work and will probably not in the next time as I have to change jobs and I am scared if I would get and keep a new job if I am visible non-binary/trans. Maybe when I have worked there for a while and finished the trial period.

[Awren]

7 hours ago, Snao van der Cone said:

I think it's also important to remember that being non-binary doesn't invalidate your perspective on binary gender issues. We can still bond and unite on issues women face even if we don't fully feel connected to that gender, because we face challenges due to it based on how we're perceived. So being non-binary isn't excusing ourselves from the conversation, just like how being asexual doesn't free us from issues like sexual harassment, expectations, and objectification.

That is true and something that I do feel is very important. I look female, so I have to deal with all of the same issues that women do. Even if I get to the point that I don't automatically read as female, by that point I will have been dealing with those issues for many years, so they will still be important to me.

[PoeciMeta]

Glad I could help @Awren. I also like to take the issue the other way around: instead of the 'trans enough' try to argue to yourself that you are 'binary enough' and you may find reasons not to call yourself that. Even a 'I'd rather not be cis' is sufficient (especially since feelings like this can be hard to grasp, this can be the only indication on how you feel). If the idea of being your AGAB is even slightly off, or if something else sounds better, it's enough of a reason to consider yourself that somethingf else.

It's start to stop wondering ''But am I?'', I know, but if you allow yourself to be that regardless of how much you ''really are'' that identity, and find that it works for you, then it's enough to confirm that you really are that. 

Guh, sorry it's hard to explain.

 

I agree with @Snao van der Cone too. I share many experiences with everyone of my AGAB and thus can relate to them in many points, and even feel better 'connected' to them due to pure... familiarity, I guess. I just know them better and therefore am (sometimes) less ill at ease with them than with people of the other binary gender, unless the environment is too heavily gendered and dysphoria inducing.

[everywhere and nowhere]

17 hours ago, Laurann said:

This isn't any less silly, but I've always liked the aesthetic male elves have in any high fantasy setting. Long straight light hair, like mine, is the standard for them. They look kind of non-binary to me.

Every trans person or any person interested in trans issues knows that the gendered expectations from trans and non-binary people are much higher than from cis people. Trans people are constantly expected to "prove" their gender and everything can be used to invalidate them - hairstyle, or even their orientation (and in case of cis men, hardly anyone would say that someone is not a man because he's gay... but in a lot of places being openly queer may disqualify a person from getting hormones and legal gender reassignment.

Hairstyle is a good example - really, the times when long-haired boys were ridiculed or even forced to cut their hair are long behind us. And short hair in men is a really fairly recent tradition, it became fixed around the time when modern bourgeois society was born. Earlier men could wear long hair and, if anything, the gender difference was rather that men wore long hair and women were expected to cover their hair - colourful headscarves and bonnets are common in a lot of European folk costumes.

In Poland the hostility against long hair in men lasted longer - even now long hair is very rare in boys below ca. 14 years of age, in communist times long-haired high school students were almost forced to cut their hair and there was a saying: "Long hair - short brain". I'm not sure if it really was so - there's much less data about humour and everyday life in older times than about "official" politics, for example - but in one Polish comic the characters travel back in time and short hair in a medieval student is considered rather inappropriate, the saying is reversed - "Short hair - short brain"...

(And coincidentally, that comic series has been running very long and after communism ended, one of the protagonists grew long hair. The author is quite elderly (he was a participant in the Warsaw Uprising, so he is now close to 100 years old), rather conservative, his protagonists have spent over 50 years as permanently young adventurous boy scouts - but he noticed that times have changed and, as an artist, he wears long hair, let one of the protagonists wear long hair as well...)

[Noego]

I'm non binary. I have no gender or agenda. Simple. Dress male so people assume male. But for me it goes a little futher.........

 

No nationality,

No colour,

No politics,

No borders,

No religion,

No thought,

 

[Rynn]

@Noego I'm not sure what you mean with that.

You have no thoughts?

What do you mean with no colour?

And no borders seems like a political opinion, but you also have no politics, so... you lost me there sorry ^^"