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"Only two genders"


Enzi

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So I'm nonbinary and I hear those 3 words a lot. That "there's only two genders."

 

Obviously the first best thing is to ignore it, but I was actually wondering how do I argue it? I don't know a ton about being nonbinary scientifically, I mostly just know that it describes me and that it feels right. I know some basics but nothing in depth.

 

I was wondering if anyone had any good resources (websites, books, etc.) for learning more about gender? Mostly centered around nonbinary/the nb spectrum, but also gender in general would be helpful.

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Just remember that a lot of people say gender when they mean to say sex.  It probably isn't worth your time trying to argue with them all

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There's only two binary genders.

There's only two easily classifiable sexes. 

There are intersex people. It makes sense that there should be non-binary people too. 

 

Oh, look, I exist [reference needed] and I'm non-binary. There are many countries where I can be recognised as such because there are enough people to whom this is important enough. And also many cultures, that have been more or less silenced because yay colonialism, but even the colonialist culture is starting to recognise it. 

 

If the person is unwilling to be educated after basic arguments like these, it's not worth insisting. 

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I mean, you could start reading Judith Butler and work your way up through subsequent theories about gender, but I don't think that's the way you're going to convince anyone, because you'll spend a lot of time and effort on convincing people who probably aren't all that interested in listening to you listing off stuffy philosophers and their theories.

 

My method of arguing isn't very scientific, but it's more aimed at being convincing to those who don't think NB's exist, and for that purpose, I have to simplify. 

I post something I wrote a while back around sometimes (it's in the spoiler). So far it's been convincing to mildly empathetic people who don't think we exist. I think it tickles their 'I'm so rational, much science, so logic'- fancy (because yeah that is exactly the type of person to go all 'two genders!' on you) while still being simple to understand, and while mostly avoiding words that tend to set them off into a 'haha you're a triggered snowflake'-meltdown, like 'social construct,' 'feelings' and 'identify'. Maybe it'll give you arguments to use.

If you wanted to, you could even copy paste bits and pieces out of it, and pretend you wrote it. 'Two genders!!1!!'- type people sometimes do like wasting your time (google sea-lioning), so probably don't tell them you copy-pasted anything at all, pretend you're giving them special treatment. You have my permission to pretend you wrote it.

(In all honesty, I did write it, I am not pretending right now. I'd only sell that white lie to people I suspect are somewhat douchy.)

Spoiler

Transgender:

 

Denoting or relating to a person whose sense of personal identity and gender does not correspond with their birth sex.

 

But what is meant by 'sense of personal identity and gender'? In this next bit I'll lay out some of the theories around what 'gender identity' means.

  • Sex is whether you’re biologically male, female or intersex.
  • Gender is psychological, not biological, and should be separated from sex entirely. From here on, I’m going to leave sex out of the equation.
  • Sexual orientation is even less relevant to this conversation. It's who you're attracted to, not who you are. I'm leaving this out of the equation too.

(I usually leave these first three definitions^ out nowadays. These used to be necessary, but even anti-feminists usually know them now.)

 

There are a lot of different aspects to gender.

  • Gender roles/norms/expectations are unwritten rules society has for how men and women should behave. (Men can't wear make-up. Crying is for girls. Women shouldn't be too assertive.) These are not part of an individual's identity. They are part of a society's culture.
  • Gender expression is what your gender appears to be to other people. (Includes gendered things like clothing, colors, make-up, mannerisms, tone of voice, way of walking, gestures while talking, how intensely emotions are expressed etc)
  • Gender identity is a very complicated concept and it is the core of what we are talking about when we’re discussing trans issues. Before you can know what ‘transgender’ is, you need to know what ‘gender identity’ is. 

So there are two main theories on what 'gender identity' is.

 

First you've got the (in my opinion outdated) theory put forward by Judith Butler, Simone de Beauvoir and the like. They resist the idea that any aspect of gender identity can be innate. As de Beauvoir says "One isn't born a woman, one becomes a woman." This basically means that you feel like a woman because it's what you're used to. You behave like a woman because that's what's socially acceptable. In this view people act how they're supposed to act according to the gender roles in their culture. The constant repetition of doing what they're supposed to do gets etched into their brains and becomes their gender identity. For Butler and de Beauvoir, gender identity is the internalization of culturally imposed gender norms and expectations.

 

Then there's a newer theory about gender identity. This one builds on the first one and accepts it as partially correct, but asserts that gender identity is also partially innate. If it wasn't, then it would logically follow that trans people simply can’t exist, because your gender identity would entirely depend on what you were raised to be.

 

Joan Roughgarden, a transgender evolutionary biologist who wrote a whole book on the science of lgbt identities, is a proponent of this one. According to her, ‘gender identity’ is a deep-seated sense of self that's been established from the time you were born. In her book 'Evolution's Rainbow', she writes:

 

I envision gender identity as a cognitive lens. When a baby opens his or her eyes after birth and looks around, whom will the baby emulate and whom will he or she merely notice? Perhaps a male baby will emulate his father or other men, perhaps not, and a female baby her mother or other women, perhaps not. I imagine that a lens in the brain controls who to focus on as a “tutor.” Transgender identity is then the acceptance of a tutor from the opposite sex. Degrees of transgender identity, and of gender variance generally, reflect different degrees of single-mindedness in the selection of the tutor’s gender. The development of gender identity thus depends on both brain state and early postnatal experience, because brain state indicates what the lens is, and environmental experience supplies the image to be photographed through that lens and ultimately developed immutably into brain circuitry. Once gender identity is set, like other basic aspects of temperament, life proceeds from there.

 

So a cisgender female baby instinctively emulates women, a transgender baby with a female body instinctively emulates men, and a non-binary baby instinctively emulates both. Simple. 

 

The innate part of gender identity is the part that decides which of the two genders (or both or neither) you will instinctively emulate during your life. The behavior of that group of people then supplies you with the learned aspect of your gender identity. So the innate part tells you which gender(s) to imitate and the learned part is what kind of behavior you're actually imitating and internalizing.

 

Gender identity as Roughgarden describes it, is a deep-seated, immutable sense of belonging or kinship to a gender (either to the social construct or to the group of people). A sense of "I belong with those people, or the other group, or maybe both or not really with either."

 

You can't change this sense of belonging by raising someone differently. There have been cases where a doctor made a mistake while circumcising a baby boy and accidentally cut of the entire penis. For example, there’s David Reimer. That boy was raised as a girl instead, from birth, but still always felt like a boy. He 'transitioned' back into a man eventually.

 

Gender identity is at least partially innate and biological, not just cultural, so the argument that your gender identity can't be anything but 'man' or 'woman' because that's the only two genders that exist in our culture, is not applicable. Gender identity =/= gender as a social construct. Gender identity is to which degree you instinctively identify with those two culturally established genders.

 

Why is it so hard to imagine that some brains are simply somewhere in between male and female? Why is it so hard to imagine that some people feel a sense of belonging to both genders, and others to neither?

 

My guess is agender people don't feel at home in either group, genderfluid babies could emulate their dad during some activities (like boxing) and their mom in other situations (like socializing), and neutrois people sort of feel stuck in between the two groups, but I don't know. The only way to know is to ask them. Our neurobiology science skills aren't advanced enough to read people's minds yet.

Gender Identity versus Gender Expression

Yes, of course everyone has a feminine and a masculine side, but that's not what we're talking about here. For example, a man can be feminine, he can like wearing make-up and dresses, talk in a stereotypically feminine way, and still identify as a man. Is his feminine side a 'deep-seated sense of identity', 'a cognitive lens that determines which gender(s) a baby will emulate from the minute they're born'? I doubt it. I think it's gender expression, not gender identity. For a nonbinary person, that's different.

 

A nonbinary person is not someone who simply dislikes the gender role they're put into. A guy who likes to break gendered expectations by wearing dresses is a crossdresser, a drag queen or a gender-nonconforming person, not a nonbinary person. Those are terms for people who have non-standard gender expressions. A nonbinary person is a person who has this innate, deep-seated, unchangeable sense of belonging to both genders, or to neither. If their body or the social role people ascribe to them doesn't line up with their inner sense of what they are, this leads to dysphoria. Dysphoria is an integrally important sign of ‘transgenderness’.

 

Gender dysphoria is either a feeling of discomfort/distress with gendered aspects of your body (meaning you'd feel a need to change your body = transition) or a feeling of discomfort/distress because of what gender people perceive you to be (meaning you'd want to take steps in order to be perceived differently = transition).

 

Gender euphoria is the opposite of dysphoria, it's feeling extremely 'right' when you're seen by others as how you perceive yourself. Euphoria can also be the thing to clue people in on their gender identity, sometimes instead of dysphoria.

 

Gender expression includes gendered things like clothing, make-up, mannerisms, tone of voice, way of walking, gestures while talking etc.

The innate part of gender identity doesn't have anything to do with any of those things.

Are NB’s trans?

                                                                Trans people

                                                       ↙                                  ↘

                                    binary trans people                nonbinary trans people

They're all trans.

 

Nonbinary people can transition, so even if you were (in my opinion incorrectly) basing your definition of ‘transgender’ on whether or not transition is possible, you still wouldn’t have a reason to say NB’s aren’t trans. NB’s can transition medically (through hormone treatment and surgery) as well as socially. Social transition isn't easy. It should be taken seriously. http://gender.wikia.com/wiki/Social_Transition

 

An NB transitions for the same reasons a binary trans person transitions, in order to have their body reflect their inner selves more, and in order to be perceived differently. It's true that in this culture NB's won't 'pass' as their true gender, because not enough people know that nonbinary identities exist, so they won't automatically recognize someone as 'Oh, that person doesn't look quite male or female, they're probably nonbinary,' as they would (most of the time) correctly recognize a woman to be a woman and a man to be a man. However, that's a problem with our culture, not with nonbinary people.

 

'Binary trans' and 'nonbinary trans' are two different types of being trans. If individual nonbinary people don’t identify as trans, then there's probably a personal story for why they don't, or maybe they just aren’t aware that nb’s are trans, or maybe they’ve made the common mistake to confuse gender expression with gender identity and they’re actually gender-nonconforming. You won't know until you ask them.

 

NB's not identifying as trans is kind of like black feminists not identifying as feminists. Some black feminists don't identify as feminists because they don't feel represented by white feminism. They feel white feminists aren't committed enough to ending all forms of oppression, instead of just to ending sexism. I believe they call themselves womanists. They're feminists, but refuse to identify as such for personal or political reasons.

 

That's what it's like with nb's too. They're trans, but some refuse to identify as trans for personal or political reasons. These reasons are very diverse. For example, indigenous folks don't conceptualize their genders in the same way western societies do. It's not as medicalized or othered. Personally I could understand why they'd rather identify with the concepts they had before ours came along.

 

Generally, people who don't believe in NB people's existence aren't likely to be responsive to the way feminists explain gender, because of the jargon they use. I don't recommend linking those people to websites like everydayfeminism. 

 

Do you know the YouTuber Contrapoints? Her style tends to be more effective on people who are convinced we don't exist. She has dropped out of a PhD in philosophy, and she's trans herself, so I'd say she knows some things. You could try sending them one of these videos:

Spoiler

 

 

 

 

But yeah, like Philip says, if they show no empathy or willingness to at least hear you out, then don't waste your time on them.

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Anonymous Axolotl

When people bring up the "there are only two genders" argument, you'd probably first want to figure out if they are confusing biological sex with gender/believe they are the same, or are just trying to be a jerk to offend you. If it's the latter, you unfortunately probably won't be able to do anything and it's best to distance yourself from people like them if possible. Sadly, some people just don't have the capacity to have an open mind.

 

However, if it's the former, you can educate them. Biological sex comes from a hard sciences (and specifically, biology) side of things, whereas gender has a heavy sociological aspect to it, which is in the soft sciences. If you've also heard the "gender is biological" argument on top of the "there are only two genders" one, I think looking into third genders (not that there are only three, it's just that the concept is named that) across various cultures and times periods in history could really help you. You could argue, "How can gender be biological and restricted to two (and even then, it isn't, because intersex people exist) when there have been completely separated cultures all around the world who have various genders outside of the binary?" Once someone knows that gender is largely culturally and socially dependent rather than a universally biological "rule," it's easier to distinguish and understand that multiple genders are entirely legitimate and not just some "fad" people identify as for attention, which is what I feel like many people who deny multiple genders think.

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I usually just explain the difference between gender identity and biological sex.

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1 hour ago, Poe's Creep Meta said:

Oh, look, I exist [reference needed]

I’ll reference ya bud. You’re real. Congrats. 

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2 minutes ago, Lichley said:

I’ll reference ya bud. You’re real. Congrats. 

Whooo hey I really exist now!!! 🎉🍾 Thanks!! 

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7 hours ago, Enzi said:

So I'm nonbinary and I hear those 3 words a lot. That "there's only two genders."

 

Obviously the first best thing is to ignore it, but I was actually wondering how do I argue it? I don't know a ton about being nonbinary scientifically, I mostly just know that it describes me and that it feels right. I know some basics but nothing in depth.

 

I was wondering if anyone had any good resources (websites, books, etc.) for learning more about gender? Mostly centered around nonbinary/the nb spectrum, but also gender in general would be helpful.

well whenever somebody says that 99% of the time they're equating gender to biology. you could briefly explain how the two are different and mention how the concept of a gender binary is completely a cultural thing.

 

 you cannot scientifically prove the existence of non binary genders, or any gender for that matter since there is no observable fact about gender. the whole thing with the male/female brain scans don't hold up as hard evidence because they only offer statistical averages and scientists admit they need to do more research.

 

if you want to learn more about gender i suggest reading things written by LGBT+ elders (leslie feinberg for example). i say elders because they grew up during the sexual revolution so their views are more insightful.

 

 

 

 

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6 hours ago, rotth said:

you cannot scientifically prove the existence of non binary genders, or any gender for that matter since there is no observable fact about gender. the whole thing with the male/female brain scans don't hold up as hard evidence because they only offer statistical averages and scientists admit they need to do more research.

Agreed. That male/female brain thing. There are some slight tendencies observed. However, 1: is that really innate, or the result of both differential education and brain plasticity? and 2: so what? It's just a tendency. The brain is too complex to draw conclusions yet. It would make for a disastrous diagnosis tool. And we don't even want a diagnosis tool. 

 

Most of all, if we try to prove we exist, we're not giving ourselves much credit, are we? It would encourage others not to take us for granted. Believing a large group of very various people who don't hurt anyone and find themselves experiencing similar things is, I'd say normal, but if that group is seeking proof of, and thus appears to be doubting, its own existence, it's tempting not to believe in them until they do find that proof. 

And that proof doesn't exist. 

But we should be believed nonetheless. There are many things we believe without proof. Except in math. 

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On 10/19/2019 at 3:06 AM, rotth said:

you cannot scientifically prove the existence of non binary genders, or any gender for that matter since there is no observable fact about gender.

This assumes that only natural sciences are science. It's true that you cannot biologically prove the existence of non binary genders. Anthropologically, sociologically, psychologically, historically, you can. Just look at cultures around the world throughout history. If this many societies independently came up with non binary people, why wouldn't they be a thing? Certainly no self-respecting anthropologist who studies gender in Indonesia, native American tribes or India would come away with the conclusion that those cultures only have two genders. 

 

On 10/18/2019 at 8:08 PM, Poe's Creep Meta said:

There are intersex people. It makes sense that there should be non-binary people too.

From experience, I can tell you that this argument doesn't work on people who leave 'two genders!' comments. It's a good try though :) 

 

On 10/18/2019 at 8:11 PM, Anonymous Axolotl said:

When people bring up the "there are only two genders" argument, you'd probably first want to figure out if they are confusing biological sex with gender/believe they are the same, or are just trying to be a jerk to offend you.

It's not this simple. People don't neatly fall into the 'confused' or 'asshole' categories. They're usually a mix of both. Anyone who comments 'two genders!' on a YouTube video has at least heard of non binary gender identities, and most of them have already heard the argument that gender and sex are different, and they've most likely heard it being ridiculed by anti-SJW's too.

 

I'd strongly advise against jumping right into explaining the difference between sex and gender, because that is exactly what they'll expect from an 'SJW,' and if you fit within their idea of what constitutes an 'SJW,' that means they get to dismiss everything you say, because they won't think of you as a rational person, but rather an indoctrinated blue haired idiot. 

 

To be clear, I personally think it's important to fight (= explain calmly and clearly) against cultural oppression, so that would make me an SJW, and I don't think SJW's are indoctrinated, blue haired, or idiots, but that is the stereotype you will have to do your very best to avoid falling into when arguing with the 'rational skeptics' 'two genders' crowd, because otherwise you won't get anywhere.

 

I think it's important to remember that even if you have the most valid arguments, and the most accurate factoids to share, you won't necessarily change people's minds, because even if these people claim to be 'rational skeptics', they definitely aren't rational or skeptic when it comes to gender. You've got to play to their emotions too (definitely don't let them know that that's what you're doing though).

 

It's important to catch these people off guard. Say something they don't expect from an SJW. If you can, make sure to agree with at least one thing they said. Stroke their ego a bit. Don't yell, don't insult, don't say you're offended. Say 'I think', instead of 'I feel,' and if possible, just state things as facts and leave the 'I think' out alltogether. Don't say catchphrases like 'trans women are women.' You can call it self-tone-policing, but the truth is that it works.

That way you're showing them you're listening to what they're saying and you're not starting out with a cliché, making them more likely to put you into the 'not a brainwashed idiot, but a person who says interesting things' -category. As you talk more, they'll see you more and more as a person with authority, and you can explain more and more risky (=more likely to expose you as an SJW) topics to them. It has to be gradual. Definitely don't let them know you're an NB right off the bat. Save it for later.

This is also why this'll be harder on twitter, where they can check your tweet history, than on YouTube, where all they've got on you is your username. If you play it right, you position yourself just a little to the left of the person you're talking to, so the positions you express and the wordings you use will have to differ a little bit depending on who you're talking to. You don't want them to read your comment history and see how far to the left you actually are (and I assume that you are, because NB's tend to be left-wing/progressive).

You're pulling them to the left bit by bit. Start slowly. Sometimes you'll have to pretend to concede small things in order to save a bigger point you're pulling them left on.

 

Second piece of advice: Save all of your explanations in a word document and re-use them when appropriate, tweaking them along the way. It'll save you a lot of time, and really, 'two genders' peeps are not that original, so you'll have a lot of opportunities to.

 

Let's start with some examples. Here's a reply chain on a comment I made about being pan versus bi:

Spoiler

 

V: Literally though you need to explain yourself because it's not making any sense, there are only 2 genders.

 

(Some random person): there's many video's on youtube explaining how there are more, so just look for them!

 

V: No there aren't though, why do you think I'm here, no one ever makes sense, e.g people who say they're non binary aren't physically different from their actual gender/sex so if I was attracted to a girl who "identified as non binary" that would still mean that I'm attracted to girls, it's literally impossible to be physically attracted to more than 2 genders, because they don't exist. (If he hadn't posted this second thing, which shows potential, I wouldn't have bothered to talk to him.)

 

Me:  I actually agree with you that people don't tend to explain this clearly. There are indeed only two established genders (at least in contemporary western society). (I got to agree with two things he said right away, putting me on his side, and I got to diverge from the standard SJW narrative without any actual damage done.) The problem mostly arises from how the word 'gender' is used. 'Gender' is in fact multiple very different concepts rolled up into one word. Splitting it up works a lot better.

(Insert the long thing that's in the spoiler in my previous post, minus the first part, because I felt it would be patronizing since he probably already knew that argument, and you definitely don't want to start out with a patronizing tone.)

And about that second thing you said "It's impossible to be attracted to more than 2 genders"; well people are attracted to other people's gender expressions, not to their gender identities (again, diverging from standard narrative to throw him off), because you can't truly know anyone's gender identity anyways (if you're a woman who is attracted to a dude who later turns out to actually be a trans woman, you're not suddenly bisexual, you were just attracted to this trans woman's masculine gender expression.)  (He didn't understand this one right away, meaning that for next time I need to tweak it to be clearer, and unfortunately less short.)

Does that clear things up, V?

 

V: 

Well firstly thanks for actually taking the time to write out a detailed answer, thats the best I've been able to find, and I'm not trying to be offensive by the way. I guess what confuses me is the word "Gender" Gender to me and most others has always meant the same thing as someones sex, so when people say there are more than 2 genders it is incorrect, I understand how and why people might want a different identity to what society portrays as the norm, but I don't think that warrants a different gender title, why can't male and females not just act, dress and talk how they want to? I think it creates so much confusion, and not just among adults but with children too, e.g. I had a friend (female) at primary school, she didn't play with the girls, she played with the boys, she played football, wore jeans and t-shirts, and she was attracted to girls, so growing up today would that not be confusing to her? If someone is telling her that she might be a boy in the wrong body is that not dangerous? or that she might not be female because of how she acts and what she enjoys? When in actual fact she was a totally normal girl who just happened to like the more stereotypical "boy things" and was a lesbian.

Also the point you made about a woman being attracted to a man who turned out to be a transwoman, I just don't see how that can change someones sexuality, if they were born male and were male in physical appearance then a woman who is attracted to them is straight surely? If they then transition, and physically appear female, then a woman being physically attracted to them would be lesbian/bi, do you not understand my point? you can only look physically either male or female, no matter how someone dresses, or expresses theirselves, no matter how they feel inside, on the outside they can't appear in between as such, I suppose you can be a feminine male and a masculine female but again they still appear as male or female, the way I feel is that your sexuality and your sexual preference are different things, so if you're a bi-sexual male, you can be attracted to women and feminine guys only or you could be attracted to feminine and masculine guys but only a select few women or however many countless combinations there are, but that is more of a preference/type thing than a sexuality thing is it not?

 

Me: 

Yeah (starting off with seeming agreement), so the difference between a tomboy and a non-binary person born female would be that the tomboy simply likes to dress and act boyishly, and doesn't feel like she belongs to a different gender identity, while the non-binary person does. Non-binary people can feel crippling social and bodily gender dysphoria, feelings of not belonging in their body, being seen as someone they're not, and a tomboy does not feel like that.

 I can see that growing up with all of these gender identity options can be mildly confusing for tomboys who don't need them (acknowledge their feelings, then ask them to do the same for you. Reciprocity works.), but can you see how feeling like you want to cut off your boobs because they feel like tumors that just shouldn't be there, and you inexplicably get angry or sad every time someone calls you 'she' 'her' 'girl' 'lady', and you don't know why you feel like that, and there is no word to describe that experience in your culture, and nobody around you feels like that, can you see how that experience can be even more confusing and alienating? The feelings and experiences that come with being non-binary have always existed. It's just that now we have words to describe them. (I agree that we've gone a bit overboard with all of the new gender identity terms, and I don't think most of them will stick around, but some will resonate with enough people that they will.) (Again, agreeing, and conceding small issues to save larger ones.)

 I think you misunderstood that last point I made. I agree with you on that one. People are attracted to a person's gender expression (which includes appearance, mannerisms etc), and not to people's gender identity, because you can't truly know anyone's gender identity.

 A woman being attracted to a man who turns out to be a trans woman is straight, because she was attracted to that trans woman's masculine appearance. If that trans woman transitions and appears female, and a woman is then attracted to her, that woman is a lesbian or bisexual. We agree there.

 However, it ís possible to look not quite male, not quite female. You then look androgynous. Your gender expression is androgynous. You should look up images of androgynous people on Google. They exist.

 Here I'm talking about gender expression, not about genitals, so fully clothed people. I suspect when you say 'you can only look physically either male or female, regardless of dress etc', you're talking about genitals. (I was wrong to assume this. It wasn't a smart move.) Genitals can actually look 'in between' male and female (look up intersex), but that's irrelevant because people usually aren't attracted solely to genitals. You don't have to see someone's genitals before you can feel attracted to them. That's just not how it works. You may not want to have sex with someone who turns out to have a set of genitals you didn't expect, but that doesn't change the fact that you were attracted to that person, and it doesn't change your orientation.

 Genitals don't play a role in these classifications. That trans woman we were talking about earlier can have a feminine gender expression, dress and act femininely, and still have a penis. If the 'straight' woman in our example is still attracted to her when she's transitioned and presents as female, that's still pretty gay, regardless of the penis the trans woman in the example still has. The penis is just not important for deciding whether our 'straight' woman is straight or not.

 

V:

Yes I can see now how non binary people might feel isolated and confused growing up, I am wondering though, what is it about them that feels wrong? e.g. with someone born a female but identifies as non binary,  is it the things like wearing makeup and certain clothes not feeling right? not wanting to act as they feel they have to? because wouldn't that just mean they didn't fit with the social stereotypes? and they were in fact female, just not in the stereotyped sense? Or is it that they hate their body, and don't feel comfortable in it, then would it not fall under body dysmorphia? Again I'm not trying to be offensive I'm just trying to get my head around it.

And no, when I said people can only look physically male or female I didn't mean in terms of genitals, I meant more facially. I looked up androgynous people, and I'm not trying to be awkward here but I didn't see one person who didn't look male or female, there were guys who I thought were girls and visa versa but there wasn't one who looked separate from both male and female, thats the point I was making with that, you can't really look like an entirely different sex other than male or female.

 

Me: 

Oh, well people often look very 'in between' to me, to the point that I really can't tell what they are, but I guess that's different for you then. (Here I conceded a small point, in order to be able to keep him reeled in on the larger issue) 

(also, again, I'm not talking about a 'different' or 'third' sex, just talking about in between.)

The difference between body dysmorphia and body dysphoria is that when people with body dysmorphia look in the mirror, they see their body differently than it actually is, and no matter what they do to change their body, their body will always look wrong to themselves, so they can get addicted to changing their body (with surgeries, diets, whatever). People with body dysphoria know exactly what their body looks like, and their symptoms of distress stop when they change the things that feel wrong.

Okay, so time to fess up. I'm someone born female and I identify as non-binary agender (so I don't identify with either gender). In those examples earlier I was drawing from personal experience. (He showed empathy for NB's, and sees me as a worthy conversationalist, meaning it's already a lot safer to disclose that I'm NB.)

(And here I inserted another long thing I tend to copy-paste around, basically my sob story which explains what dysphoria feels like as an NB. It tends to be successful in convincing people that we're not just confused cis people by playing in to the dysphoria. You don't have to read it all, just including it to be complete.)

Spoiler

 

To me being agender isn't feeling like you don't, or barely, have a gender identity, as in 'I don't care about gender, and I don't really feel like a man or a woman so I guess I'm agender,'  and it's also not simply a dislike of gender roles (who on earth likes gender roles? I mean, they're restrictive, and nobody likes being restricted.) Rather, it's a 'negative' gender identity, as in 'I have a very strong feeling of not being a man and not being a woman.'

This feeling is strong enough to give me heaps of both body and social dysphoria ever since I started growing boobs at the age of ten. I was convinced they were tumors and made my parents take me to the doctor for it, and after they'd become larger I wore sweaters every day for over two years, even when I could barely take the heat in summer, just to cover them up. I also didn't wear bras, because wearing those meant admitting that my boobs existed, which wasn't something I was willing to do. (To this day I can't go shopping for bras without tearing up). These. Things. Should. Not. Be. On. My. Body.) At the time I didn't understand why I felt this way, but I knew something was very wrong. I saw a documentary about people with some sort of dysmorphia disorder which made them want to cut off their own arms or legs because they didn't feel like they should be there and I thought I had that, except with boobs. (I have always felt like my boobs are just like lego-blocks attached to my real chest underneath, so even though I logically knew that was nonsense, I've still tried to just plop them off more times than I can count, including one painful but ultimately unsuccessful episode involving a pair of kitchen scissors). My parents made some negative comments about those people in the documentary so I kept silent.

This feeling is strong enough to make me feel like I don't really belong either with women or with men, because I don't intuitively understand girltalk or guytalk like I should if I was a girl or a guy. It's a fundamentally alienating experience. Ever since I was eleven I made a point out of it to dislike all that was girly and all that was boy'y (why is that not a word?). That wasn't a conscious decision I made, I just suddenly started hating all of that gendered stuff with a passion, even if I'd loved it before. I guess it was my way of distancing myself from both womanhood and manhood and telling the world not to categorize me as 'girl' or as 'boy' without actually having the vocabulary to do so. Being called a 'girl' or a 'lady' has upset me for as long as I can remember (for some reason 'sister' is fine ¯\_(ツ)_/¯).  It's sad because I lost a lot of the things I used to like this way. I loved pink, but it's been banished out of my life. I used to adore swimming and the underwater world is still my favorite place to be, but wearing bathing suits in front of people is just about the worst thing I can imagine. 

The feeling is strong enough for me to not recognize myself in the mirror. I would look in the mirror and think "Who even is that? Shit is that what I look like?!" I've gotten better in the last couple of years, but when I was younger I used to think that I mistakenly lived in someone else's body. I knew it didn't make sense, but I caught myself thinking things like "If the girl who's actually supposed to inhabit this body saw how much I neglected it she'd be pissed!" (because obviously make-up and morning routines were not my thing) I don't tend to have that feeling anymore, thank gosh I recognize my face as my own now, but I still feel a huge disconnect with my body. It's uncomfortable. I wish I could take it off like a piece of clothing, and just exist without it. I want to be able to bike to the train station without constantly thinking of how people see me, without making myself as small and inconspicuous as possible in order to pass unnoticed. I want to stop feeling sick to my stomach whenever I feel my body move in ways it shouldn't be able to according to my inner sense of self whenever I hit a bump in the road. Quite literally, every pothole in the road is a source of dysphoria for me.

Most examples of dysphoria and 'feeling agender' will probably sound petty to most people, and I guess they are, but the thing is, they happen every day, all day long, and that builds up. In the end every little thing hurts. The metaphor I've used to describe this is that every little everyday gendered interaction is like a tiny rock that hits my body. By now my bruises have bruises and every new little thing hits a sore spot. It makes me want to lock myself in my room, close the blinds and crawl under the blankets. Being agender makes me feel helpless because I don't feel there's anything I can do to make the world see me the right way. People will always see me as male or female, no matter what I do, and I don't feel like have the right to get angry about that, or even to feel hurt by that, because it's not their fault, they mean well, they didn't know and they couldn't possibly know. Telling them will just open me up to more rocks thrown my way as they inevitably fail to understand, which I also cannot blame them for. It's a whole lot of hurt that nobody is to blame for. Anything I could do to improve my situation would be interpreted as 'militant' or 'pushy' or 'Oh her again, talking about trans people, we get it by now!' so now I mostly just shut up and take whatever comes at me. I'm sure that's not the best strategy, but I'm clean out of options.

At age 16 I started pulling myself out of what I think was probably a depression I'd had since I was 11 (yes, that's the same time at which my dysphoria began, but I also started going to a different school at that time, so I'm not sure what caused it.) and at that point I started actively copying girls because I wanted to finally fit in. Being myself hadn't worked out, so I started living by the motto 'fake it 'till you make it'. Well I faked the hell out of it and successfully developed feminine mannerisms that I now can't get rid of anymore, and it worked! People bought it!

I did this until I was about 20 - 21, at which point I had started to feel like I didn't even know who I was anymore because I hadn't acted like myself for so long. I felt like I'd lost my ability to be myself and I didn't know how to fix it, or if I even should, because being myself had never worked out for me anyway. At that point I had been questioning my gender for about a year and I'd given myself the label 'demigirl' (even though identifying myself with something that ended in 'girl' made me want to puke), because I knew I had feminine mannerisms/ ways of talking so I didn't feel justified in claiming a label that said I wasn't feminine at all. Realizing that acting like a girl had been just that, ácting like a girl, freed me up to finally feel justified in taking up the label I had actually, secretly in the back of my mind, been identifying with most closely, 'agender.' And I added AFAB (assigned female at birth) in to let people know that I've been raised/socialized as a girl, because that's what feels most fair to me. That's me.

The moment in which I finally allowed myself to say 'I am agender' (to myself) was such a powerful moment that I can't even describe it. I cried and wanted to scream with joy and I could barely contain myself. I guess that's what gender euphoria (opposite of gender dysphoria) feels like. It just felt extremely right. It was a eureka moment for a problem I hadn't been able to solve for over a decade.

I am now 23 and still not out of the woods. I'm not out to anyone but my sister and a handful of close friends. Being called 'she' feels as alien to me as 'he' or 'they', to the point that I don't know which I prefer so I've pretty much just given up on the pronoun issue. Call me anything. Whatever. 
I know I want these things that are attached to my chest removed, but I also know that gender therapists will probably interrogate the heck out of me to prove I'm trans enough to get that treatment, and I know I'll get tons of shit from the 'I identify as an attack helicopter'-crowd if I do get it and I'm just not ready for any of that. 
One point of light is that my Chinese name (I major in Chinese and am called by my Chinese name more often than my real name) is gender neutral and I am loving it to bits. I wish I could use that name all the time, but since it's Chinese and hard to pronounce that's a bit much to ask (Laurann is an approximation of that name, but that's still too feminine for my liking), and as long as I get to be in Chinese class it's good enough for now. We'll see what happens after I graduate from my master's program next semester. It's scary, but I guess I can't hide from the real world forever.

 

I hope this helps you see why being non-binary is not the same as simply disliking gender roles, and why non-binary people tend to feel so strongly about this part of their identity. If not, well now you know my life story, there you go. Cheers! (trying to lighten the mood again, too much drama and victimhood. 'Rational skeptics' tend to disdain victimhood. Though at this point, I didn't think he'd identify as one of those. He seemed a little too emphathetic.)

 

V: 

Sorry if that comment offended you, it wasn't meant to, and yes I can see how hard that must be, the saddest part is I'm not sure how that can be fixed? If he, she and they all sound alien to you, and being seen as either a male or a female is equally as horrible, maybe I'm naive or uneducated on this kind of thing but I don't know what else there is, out of interest do you know what would make your life feel more bearable? or is it that you'll always be uncomfortable?

 

Me: 

You're not offending me at all. (He wasn't, but even if he was, don't ever admit that. Keep it amicable. Reassure him that he's doing fine and can be honest.) Honestly, as long as you're genuinely interested, it's pretty hard to. You can't just be expected to know everything, right?

Yeah I know that there isn't much I can do about it. I'm kind of stuck. Top surgery and a name change would help I think, (not that I'm ready to come out and start doing that, also I'll wait until this wave of non-binary bashing blows over) but I think I'll probably always be uncomfortable even after that. And I mean, sure it's hard at times, but there are a lot of people who have much bigger problems than I do. So thanks for your concern but all in all my life really isn't that bad. I mean, some people are sleeping on the streets right now, Saudi Arabian women don't have the right to leave the house without permission from their male guardian, slavery is still a thing in many parts of the world, the Rohingya are going through ethnic cleansing. I really can't complain about my life. I'm good. Don't worry. I'll manage. (It's hard to simultaneously stress that NB's can experience crippling dysphoria, while you avoid playing the victim, which is something 'skeptics' hate. Here, due to his reaction, I felt I'd strayed too far into 'victim mentality' territory in my last post, and tried to rectify that.)

 

V: 

Ok good, well thank you for having an actual adult conversation about it, that doesn't happen too often on the internet, and you have managed to change my views on the matter. 

And about people having bigger problems, all I'll say is, all you know is yourself, so don't ever feel like your problems are inadequate no matter what you compare them to, I hope things somehow start to get better for you someday, hopefully soon.

 

Me:

Thank you for the pleasant conversation too, and I'm glad I was able to make a difference.
And thanks for that second thing you said too, I'm aware that I tend to prioritize other people's problems and neglect my own and I need to work on that. Thanks for pointing that out to me once again! :)
Have a nice day!

 

Second example. This was a comment left on a video about a trans woman. Here there was nothing I could initially agree with, so I avoided the central thing he had an issue with, which wasn't territory I could concede, and instead made a different argument he didn't expect:

Spoiler

M:

in my opinion, there are 2 biological genders.
If your mind does not accept your biological gender, then you are affected by a mental illness.

What do you think ? (Without the 'what do you think?' I wouldn't have bothered with this person. Choose your targets wisely. This tactic takes a lot of time per person.)

 

Me: 

We (I use we instead of I. "We're a 'we' now, I'm no different than you, don't worry, you can trust me ;p") can disagree endlessly on whether 'your mind not accepting your biological sex' is a mental illness, but the fact of the matter (I deliberately use the word 'fact' to signal I'm a 'rational free thinker' and am likening myself to the 'rational skeptic' crowd) is that just like you can't magically change your sexual orientation, no matter how much you want to, you also can't change the gender that you feel in your mind. If that was possible, don't you think trans people would choose to do that, instead of killing themselves (42% attempted suicide)? (using statistics to signal I know my shit and am a 'rational thinker') So simply saying 'well it's a mental illness,' even if it is true (I say 'if it is true, instead of was, because that implies I might agree), does not solve anything. Then we still have a whole lot of trans people who are suffering from dysphoria who need a solution.

So they can't change their mind to fit their body, but they can change their body to fit their mind, and that is in most cases effective in reducing gender dysphoria and overall misery.

Do you think they should continue to suffer to the point of being so miserable that a large number of them end up killing themselves (deliberate crude phrasing, to signal that I don't care about 'feelings' and am not easily offended), if it is possible for them to lead a happy life as the opposite gender? 

If so, why? What is there to be gained by letting them suffer, rather than letting them be happy? (Asking him to justify a moral position that isn't justifiable, to let him get to the right conclusion by himself, rather than telling him he's wrong. Throughout this reply chain, I am implicitly encouraging him to see trans people as people who are worthy of happiness and respect, though I'd never explicitly tell him that they deserve that, because that would make it debatable.)

 

M: 

what you say is really interesting ! 
The question im asking is : are people born trans ?
Contrary to homosexuality, there is no transidentity in nature, and I dont think I ever saw anything talking about trans in history before the XX-XXI century.

My question is: is the gender problem an existing problem or is that something new ?

(Something else too, the main problem I have is that people try to make the fact that a man can look behave and BE a woman as something normal. That is just not the case^^)

Sorry for my bad english too^^

 

Me:

Your English is fine, don't worry about it :) (Stroking ego, keeping it friendly)
There actually are a ton of examples of trans people in history, not only in western history, but also in cultures all over the world. In India for example, you have the 'hijra', who are usually born male, but take up a female role in society. They are regarded as a third gender option there. And I'm sure you've heard of (I'm not sure of that at all, but I want him to know I respect his knowledge) all of the native American tribes that had third gender options (two spirit) as well. 
Here's a wikipedia article on transgender people in history: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transgender_history    
Of course wikipedia is not going to be a very reliable source of information, but it can be a good starting point and overview, as well as link out to more reliable sources :) (You can link to wikipedia, but always justify it with a supplementary sentence like this one, otherwise linking to wikipedia is an excuse to dismiss everything you say, because it's not a scientific source.)

Genuinely, scientists have not yet found a 'trans gene,' or figured out what causes somebody to be trans, so we can't say 100% sure that somebody is born that way. (Deliberately diverging from standard 'born this way' narrative you will hear from 'SJW's' to hide that I am one) What we can say is that whatever made someone trans, it is outside of their control, and it is decided very early into their lives. Little 4 year olds tend to naively believe everything their parents say (including obviously false things, because they trust their parents), and yet there are 4 year olds who were born male who tell these same adults "No, I'm a girl!" with an incredible amount of conviction and consistency into the rest of their lives. These 4 year olds aren't paid political actors. And this happens in conservative families too, so it's not like they are all just influenced by their parents' liberalism or something. (Here, I was assuming what he believed. I'm not sure this was smart.)
The recent increase in the number of trans people coming out is much more easily explained by increased visibility and acceptance, than by some nefarious political influence that makes people want to make their lives infinitely more difficult by living as the opposite gender. And why would progressives want there to be more trans people? What do you think they'd gain from that? (Again, asking, rather than telling)

You say the main problem you have is that people want to normalize biological men looking like and being accepted as women, right? (rephrase their argument in your own words, and ask for confirmation. It makes someone feel heard, and that's important, because otherwise you'll both start endlessly repeating what you've already said, thinking that the other still doesn't get it, while in actuality they heard and understood, they just disagree.) Why is that a problem for you? (I genuinely want to know.) (If there's any risk of a question sounding accusatory, add "That's a genuine question.") Is it that you think it is morally wrong for a biological man to do that? Or is it that you think it is simply impossible for that person to actually change their gender/sex and so the rest of society shouldn't engage in this person's 'delusions'? My response will be different depending on which of these two it is ^^ (If you're not sure what their underlying reasoning is, don't assume. Assuming something like this can easily offend someone, because you're essentially falsely accusing them of something, and then you've lost your shot at changing their mind. If you are sure, argue against their underlying reasoning, rather than the actual details in their wording)

As for trans animals, I would say most species do not have societal gender (maybe with some exceptions for primates, but that hasn't been proven), or even societies at all for that matter. They only have biological sex. So, if they don't have societies, they can't have genders, and they can't be trans.

Let's get some terminology out of the way. It will make communication easier :)

(Again, insert the long explanation thing I posted before, leaving out the NB-specific bits at the end, but this time including the first bit that explains the difference between sex and gender, because he seems confused enough to need it.)

Animals, as far as we know, don't have different cultures with different gender norms. Their behavior is just instinct. (I don't necessarily believe that's true, but he probably does, and it was convenient for the argument.) If we wanted to know whether deep inside they felt male or female, we would have to be able to ask them, which obviously we can't do.

So yes, there are a lot of animals, like clownfish, that change their biological sex over the course of their lives, but transgender animals? I'm saying probably not. (Honestly I don't know if there could be transgender animals. Primates maybe. But here I'm trying to find things to agree with him on, so I could put myself on his side, and this seemed like a harmless candidate.)

 

M: 

Thank you for this LONG but VERY interesting comment !

In my honest ominion, the feeling of being in the wrong body IS a disease, I dont say that people cant be trans, I NEVER said that^^ (Oops, he felt accused, wasn't careful enough), but I just think that going against what his body is, is a mental anomaly. I'm not a doctor, or anything, but I dont know how going against his body could be considered "normal" or not like a mental issue^^

 

Me: 

Okay, thanks for clarifying and for being honest :) (thanking and adding smilies to keep it friendly, definitely not letting any annoyance at being called a disease, abnormal and unnatural shine through)
So, correct me if this is not what you were trying to say, but I understood that you think that it is okay for someone to change their body to fit their mental gender in order to live a happier life, but that it is still a mental disorder, correct? (Here I am assuming what he means, not knowing it for sure, but phrasing it in a way that makes it seem I'm not assuming. I can't afford to ask for clarification again, we've got to keep things moving.)

So, let's start here: At what point does a variation become a mental disorder? All brains are different. Some people have ADHD, others autism, others are introverted, extraverted, naive, impulsive etc, and not all of these things are considered disorders. Where is the line? Psychologists have been asking themselves this question for a long time. Now, generally, they won't diagnose someone with a disorder until their symptoms are so severe that it hinders their ability to lead a functional and happy life. Anything that does not interfere with your life, does not 'disorder' your life, and so is not a mental disorder.

Gender dysphoria (the feeling that your body and mind don't match) is considered a disorder, because it interferes with your ability to lead a healthy and happy life, since it makes you absolutely miserable. Gender dysphoria is listed as a disorder in the DSM 5 (DSM = basically the handbook psychologists use to diagnose people with). (Deliberate sophistry/fallacy: argument to authority)

Currently, trans activists are not campaigning to completely demedicalize being transgender by removing 'gender dysphoria' as a diagnosis from the DSM, because doing that would cut them off from the medical help they need in order to live happier lives. (I don't agree with this. I do want to demedicalize being transgender. But I felt this was the moment for concessions, because I would definitely not get him on board for total demedicalization. This is one of the larger concessions I've made, but I did it so I could make the argument that it wasn't being trans that was the disorder, but dysphoria. I went for the lesser evil.)

However, transitioning (changing your body and appearance in order to match your inner sense of gender identity) is very effective at reducing gender dysphoria. If, after transitioning, a trans person does not feel gender dysphoria anymore, then they are still trans, but they no longer have a disorder. So, the point is, the dysphoria is the disorder, 'being trans' is not a disorder.

The problem I tend to have with people constantly saying to trans people "You are not normal. You have a mental anomaly, a disease." is that it serves to alienate them, and not to help them deal with what they are going through. If people were saying 'These people suffer from a disorder, so let's help them and make sure they don't suffer any more dysphoria than necessary', I wouldn't have a problem with it (I really would have a problem with that, but again, conceding small to preserve big), but instead it's usually more like 'These people suffer from a disorder, so let's reject them.' (Again, encouraging him to see us as people who deserve happiness and respect.)

If this had been a video about depression, you would not have this many comments saying: 'Depression is a disorder. These people are sick. They are not normal.', even though depression is clearly a disorder, disease and mental anomaly, whatever you want to call it. When it comes to depression, people understand that those aren't helpful things to say. Saying those things doesn't lead to a solution. It only further stigmatizes people who suffer from the disorder, which increases their suffering. (I left my response to his central issue until I had already given him a bunch of terminology, and after I'd already established myself to know things, because I knew it would be hard to make him give up on his 'being transgender is a mental illness' point. It was too risky to do it earlier. At this point I could no longer avoid it.)

I would like to decrease suffering instead :)
Does that make sense?

 

Notice that in this case I didn't reveal that I was defending my own identity. This helped, because it allowed him to be more honest about what he actually believed without worrying about offending me, which makes it easier for me to respond to his actual beliefs, rather than embellished bullshit layered on top of his actual beliefs.

It also helped because this way I didn't have to mark myself as a 'diseased mentally ill abnormal freak of nature' (in his eyes), and he could actually take me seriously.

 

He didn't reply to this last message, but after a while I sent him a TED Talk about transgender history, and he thanked me and promised he'd watch it. I'm not sure if he was convinced. Maybe he ran out of arguments. Maybe he got bored. Maybe he forgot to reply.

But it's also completely possible he was stringing me along just to fuck with me, and that's a possibility you'll have to accept if you're willing to spend time doing this. 

I myself don't do this too often. I'd get burned out. I only do it when I see a clear opening.

 

So yeah. I hope this helps. Honestly most of the time I don't feel up to the task of convincing these people either. It takes a lot of studying, not only of your own side's arguments, but also of their side's, so you can effectively counter them, and don't get caught off guard. On top of that, you'll have to learn how how to sound convincing, which is an art in itself. You don't need to be right to sound right.

Unfortunately, because the political well has been thoroughly poisoned by all of the billionaire-funded right wing content online, there is no level playing field. They take our words, mis-explain them and make them sound ridiculous, rendering them useless in arguments. Don't ever try to use the word 'patriarchy' or 'toxic masculinity,' for example, you will instantly be dismissed, even though those words describe very real phenomena proven to exist. And because you will need to talk around such 'poisoned' words, your comments will always have to be longer and better argued than theirs, regardless of whether you're right, and that sucks. It is easier for someone on the political right to sound correct than it is for us, just because of the way words work in our culture. You're fighting against the standard, against what is considered 'common sense' in contemporary culture, and striving for non-standard but better understanding of the world. That's what progressivism is

Good luck :) 

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Wow @Laurann congrats for educating people, that's an awesome thing to do! :D:cake:

It's cleverly done, too. I've seen people ridiculed for their extensive and somewhat obscure labels, which consumed most of the conversation. If I were to discuss with people like that ('people like that', such a horrible phrase to be referred to as ^^') I would probably start right away by going 'hell yeah, too many of them and no one knows what they mean amirite' just to give myself a chance to be listened to. 

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Calligraphette_Coe
18 hours ago, rotth said:

 

 

if you want to learn more about gender i suggest reading things written by LGBT+ elders (leslie feinberg for example). i say elders because they grew up during the sexual revolution so their views are more insightful.

 

 

 

 

I was very sad to hear that he recently passed. Here is a link where you can read more about him and his book "Stone Butch Blues".

 

https://www.lesliefeinberg.net/

 

Things were very different back then. One could still be institutionalized and administered electroshock therapy to 'cure' one of homosexuality or anything conflated with the same. A shiver goes through me everytime I hear Dr. Martin Luther King's "I have a dream" speech. Some of us grew up with just that hope on our minds.

 

Are we there yet? Maybe not, but at least we able to talk about it now without being sent to the White Coat Suite. Maybe in another generation we won't have to worry about straying from the Glass Closet and being fired legally from our jobs or be refused a rental unit because we became outed.

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Janus the Fox

The gender spectrum is a long stick with 2 different ends, some are anywhere along this stick and take a part of it, while others could have a mixed gender and take a a larger bit of stick with them or even take more than one bit at either end, this stick can be swapped and changed or some rather the whole stick or no stick either changing or unchanging of mind.

 

The sex spectrum is I’d say roughly the same to me.  Though what I’ve understood over time is that gender is quite the a 4 dimensional sliding graph, all the same as any other attraction identity.

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@Janus DarkFox

This is the simplest way to graph gender identity I'd say (notice that this does not include gender expression): 

Wm1KqL3.png

 

I think graphing sex would probably be harder, because there are more factors. You've got chromosomes, gonads, hormones, primary and secondary sex characteristics... You'd need a whole bunch of dimensions.

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32 minutes ago, Laurann said:

I think graphing sex would probably be harder, because there are more factors. You've got chromosomes, gonads, hormones, primary and secondary sex characteristics... You'd need a whole bunch of dimensions.

Yeah, and there is no real consensus to decide what is the determining factor when all doesn't coincide. 

Sometimes DNA sex can even be different from chromosomal sex, having XX but with the SRY gene normally located on chromosome Y can result in a male phenotype. So you have DNA, karyotype, anatomy, hormones, and type of gonad tissue/gametes produced. I may be forgetting some. 

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  • 3 weeks later...

I'm a little late to the discussion, but I've been thinking about this a lot lately. 

 

I'm a biology major so I tend to approach the "only two genders" argument very scientifically. I think people that argue that there are only two genders see anything else as unnatural. However, when you look at biology of animals other then humans that's not that case. Non-binary genders are actually common among other animals particularly invertebrates. Hermaphrodite ( simulataneous or protandic or polygynous sequential) is a term used to describe animals that are not exclusive always male or female. So biological non binary sexes exist in nature and are thus are not unnatural. There are even cases of sharks giving birth with out ever mating where the offspring has only one parent. To me that is just as if not more crazy than there being non binary identities in humans.

 

Then you can look at the things people have invented to grant abilities that humans don't have naturally, like airplains or toasters. What's the big deal about non binary identities when compared to the ability to fly?  Additionally, many scientist are working on ways to cure genetic conditions such as alzheimer's and Down's syndrome. To me it seems that if humans can do those things having genders beside just male and female like other species do should be no problem.

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@Rowan Berry Yay, a fellow biology nerd ^^ I'm nowhere as advanced study-wise but I agree!

And then there are some whiptail lizards whose species are entirely comprised of females that give birth to clones. It's fantastic. So many living beings make the ''only two genders'' thing look ridiculously unrealistic. 

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