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.Lia
2 minutes ago, Kimmie. said:

So basically when we vote we are voting for someone to be a mod in general and not to a specific forum if they can move if they want? 

yes. you're also basically voting for them to potentially be an admin at a later date, as admods are the ones who vote on admins out of the current admod pool (elections for admins are basically the same for admods, just done in admods only and they're shorter, thank god).

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Kimmie.
37 minutes ago, .Lia said:

yes. you're also basically voting for them to potentially be an admin at a later date, as admods are the ones who vote on admins out of the current admod pool (elections for admins are basically the same for admods, just done in admods only and they're shorter, thank god).

Okay that Admods can be Admins i did know ( you are very clear with that in the election posts) but you should maybe say the same thing about the moving.  For when I vote i vote for the one that would be the best for just that subject that forum has. Like candidate A could be the best one for just that forum but candidate B could be a better mod in general for other forums. So should one vote for A or B?

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Janus DarkFox

As I’ve stated, that Site info centre thread has mod and admin roles so everybody has a resource for becoming an Admod.  I suppose other smaller projects where kept secret for reasons, but for which could be greatly expanded to include AVENues, Q&A Team, PT, DT Wiki Team, Webmaster, etc.
 

Forums using the same software has an Applications page that can be a tab page alongside Forums and Activity, I’ve suggested about this if it was possible to put Chat as a tab here.  Applications pages can be a general job listing for all jobs minus a few that should be kept secret.  Answering this Application can include forum areas the candidate want to apply for, this can help creating a list of potential candidates.

 

Yeah currently, the Elections state the post, but it also details that these members being elected in can become a mod of another forum and even an admin.  It’s not like the British political system that the seat you’re sitting for as an MP cannot be shuffled around.  If an MP wanted to be an MP for another constituent, one has to resign, move to that constituent and I think live there for 6 months before being eligible to be put on the vote papers

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Kimmie.

I guess you are ofcource right. I am sorry that I have wasted your time everyone. 

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FaerieFate
15 minutes ago, Janus DarkFox said:

I suppose other smaller projects where kept secret for reasons

Can you expand upon this? I'm confused, but I want to answer. :) Thank you.

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Kimmie.

To be clear i trust you all in the team and AVEN as a whole because if I didn't i would not post those photos i am doing here and still be here for that matter. 

 

I just say some stupid things that I don't really think or mean when I get worked up so again i am sorry for the trouble i may have created. 

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KYON.

Hey @Kimmie., you really don't need to apologise for asking or saying any of this stuff!

 

You're being very respectful - plus some of the stuff you've mentioned has been brought up by other people in the past, so you're not the only one who's noticed/spoken about them. 

 

I'm sure the staff appreciate how polite you've been and I don't think you're wasting anyone's time either. The staff asked for feedback and you gave some. I really doubt you've caused any kind of trouble and you've not said anything stupid either.

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LeChat

@Kimmie. :) I wouldn't worry; you didn't do anything wrong by asking questions. 

 

It's not a waste of time, if it helps clarify forum procedures for you. It might've also helped other members, who might've not known these things, either.

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Janus DarkFox
3 hours ago, FaerieFate said:
3 hours ago, Janus DarkFox said:

I suppose other smaller projects where kept secret for reasons

Can you expand upon this? I'm confused, but I want to answer. :) Thank you.

Are there any project groups that are only known to staff and are kept away from the member ship for any reason? would these best be kept secret or opened up to the membership if such are interested to join?  I know that Q&A Team was kept secret due to a heavy responsibility for sensitive information mainly e-mails and only sporadically mentioned.  Are there other projects that could be advertised effectively to gain it's own membership?

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FaerieFate
2 minutes ago, Janus DarkFox said:

Are there any project groups that are only known to staff and are kept away from the member ship for any reason? would these best be kept secret or opened up to the membership if such are interested to join?  I know that Q&A Team was kept secret due to a heavy responsibility for sensitive information mainly e-mails and only sporadically mentioned.  Are there other projects that could be advertised effectively to gain it's own membership?

Lol. I don't know what the teams are myself. I do know there is a Census team, but it's not an AVEN team, they just use AVEN to try to recruit more people when they need it.

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Janus DarkFox
2 minutes ago, FaerieFate said:

Lol. I don't know what the teams are myself. I do know there is a Census team, but it's not an AVEN team, they just use AVEN to try to recruit more people when they need it.

Never considered a Cencus team lol, I guess it might be time to consolidate and track all these groups and have some form of official recruitment tool.

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Cheshire-Cat
16 hours ago, Janus DarkFox said:

Never considered a Cencus team lol, I guess it might be time to consolidate and track all these groups and have some form of official recruitment tool.

I've mentioned it to Phoenix as a possible project.

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Kelly

Making the elections more fun may help. The requirements for elections evolved over many years.  Presently, they seem to put candidates through a ringer. They can still change. Elections that are not so stressful, and perhaps even fun, might be an idea.

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WünderBâhr

(Sorry to the wall o text, ahead of time)

 

Hi, all. Just wanted to pop in and say thanks to all of the members for contributing their feedback. I appreciate the candor and honesty of your experiences being voiced in your posts. I also want to give much appreciation to the team members helping to respond, as they are able to.

 

I wanted to add a bit of history with elections that some may find interesting. In the past (ye old days), elections were colorful, JFF-like campaigns, with posters, status messages and stuff that basically made it feel like candidates were like sign spinners on street corners. Back then, in a much smaller community, people knew each other well enough to treat it that way. And then... We saw the trend of it becoming more of a popularity contest and less about taking the positions and process seriously.

 

So, things shifted (slowly but surely) in a more serious direction. This was done partly to encourage members who may not have been "chat" favorites but were active enough in the forums and made meaningful contributions to the community, to run in elections. The Q&A and campaigning was separated from the voting, so people had time to answer questions and those voting wouldn't miss any of the answers before adding their vote. And other such changes....

 

You also have to think, this was at a time that AVEN was still developing and establishing its presence among media, academia and other communities. It was becoming more than an online website where people could chat and find others with similar experiences. Vis-ed was always a focus. The chunk of what would be known as the community feel (and some of the more social forums) would come later; especially the more we expanded. 

 

Unfortunately, with that expansion, some of the "fun" had to be (for lack of a better word) corralled into places like JFF/Arcade and chat (anyone read the archives about the yadas?). Whew. That was a hectic time, but things settled and structure became the new focus for the backbone of AVEN - - the teams, the events, developing and keeping to our mission statement. As people came and went, more changes occurred.

 

Rules were created for situations we hadn't faced before. It was a steep learning curve, because there wasn't an online community that we could pull relevant/appropriate examples from. The culture of the internet was undergoing a lot of changes, too. And that impacted how the teams worked within their roles, as well as with the general membership. It still does.

 

Seriously, if you have the time, read through Admod Archives. You may be able to see the moments where more restricted campaigns and election bans became a thing, bc of situations that hadn't been foreseen. Like any rules for safety, security and structure, there was usually a catalyst. And that is something I hope every member considers when they don't understand or disagree with a rule, or change on the forums. 

 

Now, that's not to say that AVEN isn't capable of changing. It changes all the time, though it may be harder to see in the right now. I've been around for almost 2 decades, and I can say with absolute confidence that this is not the same AVEN as when I first joined (for better or worse). But we (the collective AVEN "we") still care. It's evident in the fact that people continue to contribute to threads like this, and in those who help manage forums and chat, which can become little communities within themselves.

 

I think some of the suggestions put forward are worth discussing. Keep them coming! Let us know what you want to see, and/or how you think it can be done. :) There are quite a few points and suggestions that have made me go into Bahr thinking mode. 🤔🤔🤔😁👍

 

 

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Serran
10 hours ago, Kelly said:

Making the elections more fun may help. The requirements for elections evolved over many years.  Presently, they seem to put candidates through a ringer. They can still change. Elections that are not so stressful, and perhaps even fun, might be an idea.

Given elections are a breeze compared to actually being an admod,... I wonder how long admods would last if they came in thinking it's all fun and games from a "fun" election and got into the bogged down nature of being an admod with all the red tape and backroom "debating" and nasty PMs from users upset with the team? 

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WünderBâhr
9 hours ago, Serran said:

Given elections are a breeze compared to actually being an admod,... I wonder how long admods would last if they came in thinking it's all fun and games from a "fun" election and got into the bogged down nature of being an admod with all the red tape and backroom "debating" and nasty PMs from users upset with the team? 

Not sure. I was on the team for 2 yrs when that happened with me. 

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Cheshire-Cat

Maybe the system itself needs an overhaul. I know sometimes admods can have trouble discussing reports etc. due to time constraints. Could a better system be that each forum has it's own admod and then there's an additional 'reports' team who only deal with reports. So each time a report comes in it's dealt with by that forums admod and the report team without the other admods having to be involved. Having a dedicated team would likely mean reports were dealt with faster and give admods the time to actually sort the admoddy stuff. Maybe the reports team could have its own AVEN account that would send out (and respond to) nudges and warnings so it's not attributed to a particular admod. Having done DT I'd actually be far more interested in doing a role based purely on reports than the current admod role. In part because it's something I could do more easily from my phone.

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.Lia
1 hour ago, Cheshire-Cat said:

Maybe the system itself needs an overhaul. I know sometimes admods can have trouble discussing reports etc. due to time constraints. Could a better system be that each forum has it's own admod and then there's an additional 'reports' team who only deal with reports. So each time a report comes in it's dealt with by that forums admod and the report team without the other admods having to be involved. Having a dedicated team would likely mean reports were dealt with faster and give admods the time to actually sort the admoddy stuff. Maybe the reports team could have its own AVEN account that would send out (and respond to) nudges and warnings so it's not attributed to a particular admod. Having done DT I'd actually be far more interested in doing a role based purely on reports than the current admod role. In part because it's something I could do more easily from my phone.

if admods don't have time to discuss reports then they don't have time to be an admod, imo.

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Cheshire-Cat
22 minutes ago, .Lia said:

if admods don't have time to discuss reports then they don't have time to be an admod, imo.

What I'm saying is the forums admod would only have to be involved in discussions for their forum (but would be welcome to join in others). If there was a team dedicated  reports their entire focus could be on knowing the ToS inside out and getting reports completed in a timely manner. You can't say reports haven't gone out of ToS due to them dragging on because admods have been busy elsewhere. Plus you could potentially make it easier for them to contact members to defend themselves as a part of the report process, which would make reports fairer to members.

 

It has to be remembered that the more members a site gets the more reports will be generated and the more time managing them takes. AVEN has grown significantly since the admod system was implemented which means a greater workload for admods. Therefore we should be questioning whether a mod system designed for a significantly smaller system still works effectively in the current system or whether it could be improved by changing some off the duties. I mean declass was an admod duty until 2015 when a team was created because it was realised that it wasn't receiving the attention it should, maybe we're reaching that time with reports. A reports team could potentially also be involved in the declass of reports that have reached 6 months since they were locked so that these get declassed earlier and members can get a better idea of how the current team think rather than looking 3 years back. The declass team could then concentrate on backlog. I mean when I counted the other month we'd declassed 40 odd threads in one month, but over 60 had been created between admods only and reports.

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KYON.

I get the point and it sounds like a decent idea - but who'd actually want to do it?

 

The OP of this thread lists five different positions and says volunteer interest is at an all time low for all of them. If none of us want to do what's already available, we probably wouldn't want to do Option 6.

 

I'm sorry to be negative - but I think realistically, staff need to worry about how they can fill the roles they already have before coming up with new ones.

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Pumpkin Spice Eggnog Latte
25 minutes ago, spookyon. said:

I get the point and it sounds like a decent idea - but who'd actually want to do it?

 

The OP of this thread lists five different positions and says volunteer interest is at an all time low for all of them. If none of us want to do what's already available, we probably wouldn't want to do Option 6.

 

I'm sorry to be negative - but I think realistically, staff need to worry about how they can fill the roles they already have before coming up with new ones.

I agree to a point.

 

I found out the hard way that some roles do well when we ask the membership about them first (I was pretty much slapped in the face by y'all about DT and I deserved that one).  If the membership expresses interest in a role then it should be something the team should look into.

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.Lia
2 hours ago, Cheshire-Cat said:

What I'm saying is the forums admod would only have to be involved in discussions for their forum (but would be welcome to join in others). If there was a team dedicated  reports their entire focus could be on knowing the ToS inside out and getting reports completed in a timely manner. You can't say reports haven't gone out of ToS due to them dragging on because admods have been busy elsewhere. Plus you could potentially make it easier for them to contact members to defend themselves as a part of the report process, which would make reports fairer to members.

 

It has to be remembered that the more members a site gets the more reports will be generated and the more time managing them takes. AVEN has grown significantly since the admod system was implemented which means a greater workload for admods. Therefore we should be questioning whether a mod system designed for a significantly smaller system still works effectively in the current system or whether it could be improved by changing some off the duties. I mean declass was an admod duty until 2015 when a team was created because it was realised that it wasn't receiving the attention it should, maybe we're reaching that time with reports. A reports team could potentially also be involved in the declass of reports that have reached 6 months since they were locked so that these get declassed earlier and members can get a better idea of how the current team think rather than looking 3 years back. The declass team could then concentrate on backlog. I mean when I counted the other month we'd declassed 40 odd threads in one month, but over 60 had been created between admods only and reports.

what you've described is what an admod's job is: to moderate their forums, mete out warnings/nudges as needed based on an expert knowledge of the terms of service. there's nothing that gives anyone the opportunity to 'defend' themselves when they're being discussed for a warning, because the member doesn't know they're being discussed for a warning. in order to have that happen, we'd have to at least let the person/people involved know which could possibly out the identity of the person who reported it, or simply start more shit in a thread that's already gone to shit. 

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Pumpkin Spice Eggnog Latte

Well we probably should be questioning our mod system just due to our growth.  Is it sustainable or should we do something else.

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Cheshire-Cat
45 minutes ago, .Lia said:

what you've described is what an admod's job is: to moderate their forums, mete out warnings/nudges as needed based on an expert knowledge of the terms of service. there's nothing that gives anyone the opportunity to 'defend' themselves when they're being discussed for a warning, because the member doesn't know they're being discussed for a warning. in order to have that happen, we'd have to at least let the person/people involved know which could possibly out the identity of the person who reported it, or simply start more shit in a thread that's already gone to shit. 

An admod does significantly more than just reports though. At the moment most areas that admods are involved in don't get the response they deserve due to there being so many areas they need to keep an eye on. And plenty of admods have left due to the work load. It's not saying admods couldn't give out nudges or warnings, but I think saying that is their entire role is extremely simplistic. If admods didn't have to care about checking all the reports from other forums in the reports area then maybe it would give them more time to keep an eye on, and actually interact with, their forums. It would also give them more time to keep up with an interact with any policy or other ongoing discussions. Again I've seen plenty of admods who feel they've lost out on being an actual member of AVEN, checking and posting in their own forums and others, because they end up spending all their time checking their own forum or admods just to try and keep with with everything going on.

 

And why shouldn't a member know their post is under investigation? In any other area of life you would know. If there's an issue with me at work they have to let me know I'm being investigated and what for. It's not exactly hard to say 'xyz post of yours has been reported due to potentially breaking ToS clause abc and as such has been temporarily hidden whilst the team discuss this. If you feel this post does not break this clause please can you let us know why not, and this will be considered during our discussions. We will endeavour to let you know the outcome of the report, and whether your post will be reinstated, within 3 days'. Not only would this show members admods are actually taking their reports seriously by temporarily hiding the post (this wouldn't be necessary unless it was looking at a warn) but it would give people chance to explain their meaning whilst they actually remembered what they posted and without having to wait to eventually receive a warn and then go through the appeals process.

 

Just because the admods role has been done a certain way for a period of time doesn't mean it couldn't, or shouldn't change. That's part of the problem. We're stuck in a rut of saying 'well this is how we've done it so it's how we'll keep on doing it. Even if it isn't working'.

 

2 hours ago, spookyon. said:

I get the point and it sounds like a decent idea - but who'd actually want to do it?

 

The OP of this thread lists five different positions and says volunteer interest is at an all time low for all of them. If none of us want to do what's already available, we probably wouldn't want to do Option 6.

 

I'm sorry to be negative - but I think realistically, staff need to worry about how they can fill the roles they already have before coming up with new ones.

I think there would be people who would. I know interest is currently at a low point, but some of that is due to the sheer workload expected of the admod role. Maybe if some of that could be taken away people might actually be more interested in applying for it. Also as far as I'm aware DT and PT are fully manned, and although I'm not sure about the other volunteer projects I'm sure if there any any issues with lack of uptake it may well be due to the fact people don't know they exist, or how to apply, as they aren't advertised in the same way as the main staff roles. Realistically out of all the staff roles mod is the hardest to recruit to, as well as really being the most crucial because when we're short of admods it adds workload to the others making them more likely to leave. The idea is to reduce workload and thus make it a potentially more attractive role.

 

 

You could start out with a small number of report team members (maybe 2 or 3, possibly taken from previous/current staff team members/TT) to work alongside admods to focus on reports. If it worked, and meant reports were dealt with faster, then the team could be expanded and admods would need to have less involvement (unless they wanted to). It's something that would be relatively easy to trial, especially if it was done with current staff members/TT and the effectiveness could be easily monitored during the trial period by looking at the amount of discussion occurring on report threads, and the speed with which the reports are dealt with. Along with how it effects discussion on none report threads, and whether admods feel it removes some of the pressure allowing them to undertake their other duties more effectively.

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Janus DarkFox
11 hours ago, Cheshire-Cat said:

An admod does significantly more than just reports though. At the moment most areas that admods are involved in don't get the response they deserve due to there being so many areas they need to keep an eye on. And plenty of admods have left due to the work load. It's not saying admods couldn't give out nudges or warnings, but I think saying that is their entire role is extremely simplistic. If admods didn't have to care about checking all the reports from other forums in the reports area then maybe it would give them more time to keep an eye on, and actually interact with, their forums. It would also give them more time to keep up with an interact with any policy or other ongoing discussions. Again I've seen plenty of admods who feel they've lost out on being an actual member of AVEN, checking and posting in their own forums and others, because they end up spending all their time checking their own forum or admods just to try and keep with with everything going on.

 

And why shouldn't a member know their post is under investigation? In any other area of life you would know. If there's an issue with me at work they have to let me know I'm being investigated and what for. It's not exactly hard to say 'xyz post of yours has been reported due to potentially breaking ToS clause abc and as such has been temporarily hidden whilst the team discuss this. If you feel this post does not break this clause please can you let us know why not, and this will be considered during our discussions. We will endeavour to let you know the outcome of the report, and whether your post will be reinstated, within 3 days'. Not only would this show members admods are actually taking their reports seriously by temporarily hiding the post (this wouldn't be necessary unless it was looking at a warn) but it would give people chance to explain their meaning whilst they actually remembered what they posted and without having to wait to eventually receive a warn and then go through the appeals process.

 

Just because the admods role has been done a certain way for a period of time doesn't mean it couldn't, or shouldn't change. That's part of the problem. We're stuck in a rut of saying 'well this is how we've done it so it's how we'll keep on doing it. Even if it isn't working'.

 

I think there would be people who would. I know interest is currently at a low point, but some of that is due to the sheer workload expected of the admod role. Maybe if some of that could be taken away people might actually be more interested in applying for it. Also as far as I'm aware DT and PT are fully manned, and although I'm not sure about the other volunteer projects I'm sure if there any any issues with lack of uptake it may well be due to the fact people don't know they exist, or how to apply, as they aren't advertised in the same way as the main staff roles. Realistically out of all the staff roles mod is the hardest to recruit to, as well as really being the most crucial because when we're short of admods it adds workload to the others making them more likely to leave. The idea is to reduce workload and thus make it a potentially more attractive role.

 

 

You could start out with a small number of report team members (maybe 2 or 3, possibly taken from previous/current staff team members/TT) to work alongside admods to focus on reports. If it worked, and meant reports were dealt with faster, then the team could be expanded and admods would need to have less involvement (unless they wanted to). It's something that would be relatively easy to trial, especially if it was done with current staff members/TT and the effectiveness could be easily monitored during the trial period by looking at the amount of discussion occurring on report threads, and the speed with which the reports are dealt with. Along with how it effects discussion on none report threads, and whether admods feel it removes some of the pressure allowing them to undertake their other duties more effectively.

An Admods roles are listed in the Site Info Center, so would be Admods are informed on exactly what is down, perhaps this can be expended and include other staffing.  This info could play a greater role in any nominations and/or elections, unless such are already linked in every nomination/election thread.

 

Unfortunately, telling people they’re being investigated will cause significant stress, this may cause drama and possibly a form of breaching under current processes.  Allowing a person to defend themselves means any defence forms an appeal under current processes so may prevent further appeals currently.

 

All Admod duties are a shared responsibility as I see things, even if a mod or 2 in a forum have sole responsibility of their forums, reports and other discussions are shared. The final say on things are encouraged to be voted on if actions are complex or new.  Some experienced solo mods, if feeling competent enough can do the whole process themselves, especially if things are more simple and clear cut or it’s often a repeat situation, those often go into Spares Report threads.  It is not as though we are undermanned, it’s often than not those manned often find little time to do things either, unfortunately though, Guaranteeing a minimum effort means adding additional election criteria which goes against lowering criteria to run.

 

Im all for any and all staff officially contribute toward active Reports, even if it’s just a second opinion, advice or a sort of professional witness.  Not often though I’m compelled to comment on a report currently active, even if it is just a reminder of what Admods have done in the past.  Staff have been voted in, all votes could be contributed to reports, this though could be stepping in too many toes.  I’m not sure what kind of authority other staff other than Admods can have on report threads. 

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daveb
4 hours ago, Janus DarkFox said:

Im all for any and all staff officially contribute toward active Reports, even if it’s just a second opinion, advice or a sort of professional witness.

I agree with this. Sometimes DT, TT, or other team members will have knowledge (such as history and past decisions, why certain policies are in place, etc.) that current admods might not have. So I welcome the input if it appears we aren't aware of it.

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LeChat
1 hour ago, daveb said:

I agree with this. Sometimes DT, TT, or other team members will have knowledge (such as history and past decisions, why certain policies are in place, etc.) that current admods might not have. So I welcome the input if it appears we aren't aware of it.

That's a good point; there are DT or TT staff who mentioned during their election campaigns that they used to mod, as well.

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Kimmie.

Reading this has made me sure of one thing atleast i am not at all admod material.

I have way to many contradicting feelings about some of the rules that i could not do the job fair.

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.Lia
1 hour ago, InquisitivePhilosopher said:

That's a good point; there are DT or TT staff who mentioned during their election campaigns that they used to mod, as well.

dt didn't used to mod. some of them might have but it's not a pre req like it is to be tt. i'd caution against this type of thing (encouraging teams other than admods to speak up in reports). it's a slippery slope, and tt are not elected. dt are elected only to handle past reports, and pt are elected only to handle projects, not reports or discipline.

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LeChat

@.Lia Sure. I just like keeping an open mind to others' ideas/solutions. ^_^

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