Guilt sex? No thanks.

[Sinking_In]

So things had been getting...better, lately. We've worked on intimacy without sex, recently. Wife is happier, so was more inclined for sex, but it's starting to drop off, again. We've been connecting every day, some more than others, and initially, she offered sex (we all know that's about as good as it gets, so I gladly accepted). Well, some life got in the way, and 2 weeks passed without a rendezvous (not exactly the end of the world). Today was open, and our usual day for it, because it's the ONLY day our schedules are open for it. Well, she made up an excuse to ditch me, though I've no idea what it was. I didn't ask, I didn't beg, I simply let her know I was coming home. It's OUR day. Nothing. I had to drive by her work on the way to mine, anyway. I wasn't stalking, but yes, I looked, and her car wasn't there. No biggie, I thought at the time, she's not supposed to be there. I got home tonight, and I asked (in a usual way), what she did today? She told me she was working (on her day off). Okay. So what about lunchtime? Ignored me completely. I let it go. Obviously, she simply did not want to be available at lunch, at all, and did not want to tell me about it.

 

I later reminded her that I was out of town next Monday. I think she then realized she blew me off for what will be TWO full weeks, rather than just this week (on top of the past 2 weeks that "couldn't" happen, anyway). Well, she offered a make-up session tomorrow. I don't think I want it. I'm not really mad about the sex, but I am mad about seemingly being lied to, ditched, ignored. I don't think I want to broach the subject tonight, because I don't want an off-the-rails argument (if she doesn't want to admit to something, a whole shit storm gets thrown into my face, then a shit storm gets thrown right back, and nothing productive comes of it). I have a session scheduled for Thursday with my go-to therapist, anyway. It's better I hash this out with him, I think (though what am I doing here, right?) I see him about every 2-3 years to recalibrate, but I'm thinking I'm going to need a full tuneup this time. Why is this so difficult? I feel like this has just been a merry-go-round of years of trying and giving up.

 

The truth is, I think I'm done with sex with my wife at this point. It's becoming less and less appealing to me each time, really, especially since I know it's charity, gift, pity, guilt, whatever you want to call it. I'm afraid it's turning into a total turnoff. So no sex anymore? But I'm NOT asexual. I'll never be asexual. I know myself well enough that I cannot live a celibate life. I don't want to. I used to really, really enjoy sex, and I know I COULD enjoy it with a sexual person. I'm getting to the point where I think I'd prefer an open marriage, if it were even on the table. I know I could handle it, but I just don't believe she could/ would. Regardless, I have to get what happened today sorted out. Totally fucked up, but she thinks somehow guilt sex tomorrow will make it all better? I have a lot to talk about with my therapist. I guess I just needed to vent. It's been a frustrating couple of weeks, really, but it was manageable up until today. I don't know if all of that made me feel any better, actually, but at least I've sorted some thoughts out. I'll try and update this, later.

 

[SithLord]

I think you should try and bring it up with her. She might not fully understand how you feel about it. I know I've acted similarly towards my boyfriend. I've pissed him off whenever sex was expected but didn't happen (it was almost always my fault, but I always had a dumb excuse) and I only understood after a few different conversations with him how "guilt sex" made him feel. 

 

It is a serious concern if she's outright ignoring you and doesn't even have a good excuse. This isn't good even in a non-mixed relationship. It seems to me that if she's not willing to compromise and keep with it, then you shouldn't either. She needs to know how all this is making you feel. 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, SithGirl said:

I think you should try and bring it up with her. She might not fully understand how you feel about it. I know I've acted similarly towards my boyfriend. I've pissed him off whenever sex was expected but didn't happen (it was almost always my fault, but I always had a dumb excuse) and I only understood after a few different oncersations with him how "guilt sex" made him feel. 

 

It is a serious concern if she's outright ignoring you and doesn't even have a good excuse. This isn't good even in a non-mixed relationship. It seems to me that if she's not willing to compromise and keep with it, then you shouldn't either. She needs to know how all this is making you feel. 

Well... sex could be worse for her than not getting it is for him 😕 She may be trying to avoid it because she can't take the emotional toll it has on her.

 

OP, you need to have a proper talk about this with her. She could be trying to avoid it because it causes her legitimate suffering that she doesn't know how to vocalise presently, maybe out of shame or fear. The pressure of knowing you have to have sex can be utterly overwhelming for some people, worse than the sex itself, and it just makes you want to run away and hide which it sounds like she's doing 😕

[Sally]

22 minutes ago, Pan Ficto. (on hiatus?) said:

The pressure of knowing you have to have sex can be utterly overwhelming for some people, worse than the sex itself, and it just makes you want to run away and hide which it sounds like she's doing 😕

Yes, exactly.  

[Lisa Smith]

I don't know the full story, only what you've written above but relationships don't work like this. I've been in several with sexual people and they always go bad because they want sex and I see it as something I HAVE to do or like a chore, but don't want to. Neither of you will change your minds on this so it may be kinder to you both to call it a day.

[anisotrophic]

@Sinking_In

 

I hate to say it but my immediate thought was "oh they've reached that stage".

 

Because this is a very typical thing: once it's offered, a sexual partner doesn't want it: it feels rapey, or it offends their pride, or they feel too vulnerable/disempowered by the imbalance in attraction. It's very normal to cease being attracted to someone that's not attracted to you.

 

In your story, I'm also seeing a lack of explicit conversation about sex. I don't think that's helpful.

 

If your therapist isn't ace-savvy they could drag you into unhelpful stuff.

 

My therapist challenged me: "why do you need him to be attracted to you?"

 

I concluded I don't, but neither can I live with knowing I'll never experience being desired, nor does he want that for me, so the relationship is now nominally open.

 

I also fluctuate on the sex thing, between "why bother / this makes me feel worse" vs. "this gift makes me feel loved" vs. "I'm allowed to request/take sex" -- the last being a bit dom, I do worry and check in a lot. If someone is in "why bother" zone, I totally hear you. It's very real.

 

That's all just us; you'll be navigating your own course. It is normal and very reasonable to feel like you don't want sex with someone that doesn't want it with you.

[Traveler40]

^ That, yes. Once I lost the desire to sexually connect with my husband, I never got it back. That was one critical step in the journey that can forever alter things as you’re sexual, yet stuck.  Now what?  The answer is different for each couple, but the options are few. You two must be talking about this a lot and often.
 

Tangentially, my husband is having some odd emotions as a result of his prostectomy given his status at zero function. Now that he can’t get hard, he’s having to face the removal of option. I find it curious since he never exercised use (with someone) across the past decade plus, but total removal of choice has added another dimension of emotion for him to work through.
 

Your wife needs to understand your thoughts and feelings.  Once choice is removed, emotions will get ever more complicated and solutions narrow further.

[Sinking_In]

I thought sleeping on it would help. It didn't. I barely slept, and I woke genuinely annoyed. Worse, she asked (in a rather demanding way) if we're meeting at lunch, and if I didn't confirm right then, she'd make other plans. I bit my tongue and said yes (though I wasn't 100% sure I could get my head right by then). To clarify, I'm not annoyed that we did not have sex. I'm annoyed that she seemingly, purposely ditched me and attempted to lie about it. It's the lie that gets to me. I concede it could be simply reverting to a child's reaction, to lie when caught, but she's an adult, and should know better. Then again, I know this about her, just disappointed she hasn't outgrown it in 12 years of marriage

7 hours ago, Pan Ficto. (on hiatus?) said:

knowing you have to have sex can be utterly overwhelming

I also concede that, so I'll have a talk with her during the time she set aside for the guilt sex. I'd rather talk about this than have any sex at all. I'll let her know if she just can't, then say so. Lying to me will make it 1000x worse. She's told me she is more or less sex indifferent, not sex adverse, but maybe that is changing? If so, then so must our relationship change. We will both have to adapt to new boundaries, both hers and mine. I have a lot to think about in the next 4 hours, while trying to work, and also get this sorted out so I can have a calm and understanding conversation, checking my hurt and anger at the door.

 

@anisotrophic "oh they've reached that stage" I hate to be a cliché   My therapist isn't ACE experienced, per se, but I did ask, and he said he is better versed in the fallout that comes of it. He's kind, never pushy with opinion, so I'm sure he won't steer me wrong. He also said he'd find an ACE referral for me if need be (I wish I can convince my wife to see one, but she firmly believes this is all MY problem). Since both you and @Traveler40 see a turning point here, I'll take heed and proceed with more caution and understanding than usual. I value your experienced input.

 

Now I have work to do. Literally, and mentally.

[Mysterywriter221]

4 hours ago, Sinking_In said:

I wish I can convince my wife to see one, but she firmly believes this is all MY problem

If your therapist suggested couples counseling would she agree to go for /your/ benefit? 

[Ours]

Mixed relationships are so delicate with hurt for both parties always around the corner

 

the lying is so much worse. For me saying something to acknowledge the day then hearing I feel to much anxiety/stress/ugly/fat/gassy or what have you is some much intimate then a doing a runner.  (I’ve lowered my standards to just require intimacy hell its all we have.)

 

tread lightly on asking for an open relationship I asked my husband and talk about shit storm. 

 

[Sinking_In]

Okay, so we talked. My wife HATES serious conversations, but I did my best to reaffirm it's just to help me sort out my own thoughts. I did learn more, and I do with every conversation, though she'd argue I don't. She believes it should be simple to get, but maybe I'm just slow (my words, not hers)? Anyway, I think it's sunk in for both of us that our sexual incompatibility is really too great a hurdle. The middle ground in our "compromise" seems to keep shifting, which is frustrating both of us. We agreed that we love one another, and that every OTHER aspect of our lives together is what we want (sound familiar?). It was at that moment, and to my surprise, that she suggested I find a sexual partner. But, not so fast. I know what she meant. Was she serious? Mostly. Is it what she wants? Certainly not, but she said if it meant we could share our lives together, and never talk/ argue about sex again, she believes she would be happy with that, so long as it also brought peace to the household. I know this is a much longer, much more serious conversation to be had, so we just put a pin it for now. (One more thing to talk to my therapist about on Thursday). 

 

Oddly enough, she said she believes she has a libido, but it takes months and months (and months and months) to build, and if there is one slight bump along the way, it would start from absolute zero, again. She thinks she felt "desire" a few times, when she was younger, but admits she hasn't felt it for well over a decade. Ouch, but I did not take it too personally, because she explained sex with me is a reset, so there has never been a build for desire from her. Although I did let her go about 8 months without sex, nor asking for it, and I can say I never saw any signs of building desire, so....She also admitted that if I did that, again, she'd definitely revel in a good 4+ months of sexless happiness. That speaks VOLUMES, so I think the sex talks will take a brief hiatus, at least until I get my head straight. For myself, I've taken sex off the table for now. Yes, I appreciate she has sex FOR my sake, to show me she loves me, but in the same token, I should show her I love her by NOT expecting her to have sex with me just for my sake. The truth is, I'm actually relieved to just not even think about sex with my wife, as crazy as that might sound, but knowing there's zero expectation, zero anticipation, zero rejection, it's a bit of a relief. For now, at least.

 

Oh, and just to follow up on feeling "ditched and lied to", she honestly thought she had no reason to set that time aside, nor inform me that she made other plans. Chalk it up to poor communication, I guess (as well as that shifting middle ground). She went into work, and went to lunch with her friend, which honestly I have no reason to doubt, and I refuse to let my mind go down some dark rabbit hole over nothing. I'm still annoyed, but I give her credit for realizing it (after she saw I was not happy), and trying to make it work today. She does try, she does, and I have to give her credit for that and stop pressuring her to try harder. I know it isn't fair. My therapist is going to have his work cut out for him, that's for sure!

 

Thanks for letting me vent and get my thoughts out!

 

 

[Sinking_In]

2 hours ago, Mysterywriter221 said:

If your therapist suggested couples counseling would she agree to go for /your/ benefit? 

Maybe, but I know she would be terribly annoyed if she did. I'll cross that bridge when I get to it.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Sinking_In said:

Oddly enough, she said she believes she has a libido, but it takes months and months (and months and months) to build, and if there is one slight bump along the way, it would start from absolute zero, again.

I can relate completely. I was with my ex for 5 years (and gave him sex twice every day even though I hated it, because I was young and thought I had to Y_Y) but I was never, ever able to 'want' the sex, even before we officially got together so I wasn't drained from sex all the time or anything. Anyway, many years after I left him I met a guy on AVEN who thought he may be asexual, and I realised that with him having ABSOLUTELY no real desire to connect sexually, and no issue with never having sex, my libido was actually able to 'build up' and I was able to actively desire sex  It's something sometimes I'd forget about for weeks or months, but then when it built up enough I could want a lot of it quite happily (and he found his libido works 'reactionary' so he can only want sex if his partner wants it, otherwise he doesn't think about it). But yeah, if I was with an 'average' sexual person, the moment they have an expectation of or need for sex, or get upset or whatever over me totally forgetting about it, my libido sets back to 0 and just stays there Y_Y So even though I realised I'm not ace, my libido is such that I will probably never be able to have a relationship with a sexual person because my desire pattern just works so ridiculously, and it sounds like your wife could be in a similar boat as me :c

 

It's good that you were able to have a talk at least, and that at least some things (like the lack of communication) were cleared up a little!

[Sinking_In]

@Pan Ficto. (on hiatus?) that is interesting, regarding your similarities with my wife. I gotta ask, though (if you don't mind), did  you meet your ace man IRL, or was this online? Just wondering if the build up would work when faced with physical contact as opposed to just intellectual stimulation? Does it seem being desired/ pestered for sex is just simply a turn-off for you (as is the case with my wife), and being ignored (sexually speaking) is a turn-on? I believe these things are more common than one might think, actually, regarding most sexual people, really. Maybe, since I'm becoming sexually disinterested now, our sex life might pick up?  JK, I know I'd never make it.

[Guest]

12 minutes ago, Sinking_In said:

@Pan Ficto. (on hiatus?) that is interesting, regarding your similarities with my wife. I gotta ask, though (if you don't mind), did  you meet your ace man IRL, or was this online? Just wondering if the build up would work when faced with physical contact as opposed to just intellectual stimulation? Does it seem being desired/ pestered for sex is just simply a turn-off for you (as is the case with my wife), and being ignored (sexually speaking) is a turn-on? I believe these things are more common than one might think, actually, regarding most sexual people, really. Maybe, since I'm becoming sexually disinterested now, our sex life might pick up?  JK, I know I'd never make it.

For me, being desired without him actually expecting sex was the key. I needed him to be overt in his desire for me, without him having any actual need for that to progress to sex (and being very happy to go without sex to the extent he'd even forget about it). I did need to be honored and respected for my appearance though (edit, and for my brain too of course, lol), and to know I aroused him. But just that he didn't care if he never had sex. 

 

We only were together online (for about 2 years), didn't meet physically, but in person it would need to be exactly the same. He still has to show desire for me, but also have utterly no expectation of sex, ever. His desire for actual sex must ONLY be triggered by my desire for it, or my libido is instantly killed. It's taken 8 years (since leaving my ex) for me to learn all this, having had 3 online partners in that time. I haven't physically had sex (or even talked with a guy lol) since leaving my ex though.

 

Pretty much, my requirement for me to be able to desire sex is: For a partner to overtly desire me sexually to the extent they masturbate a lot, while also having no expectation or need of actual sex from me. That's the only way to wake my libido up.

 

Hence why I will probably be single for the rest of my life  

[Guest]

9 minutes ago, Sinking_In said:

Maybe, since I'm becoming sexually disinterested now, our sex life might pick up? 

I actually knew a sexual partner here on AVEN who that happened to, lol. According to him, when he stopped asking his wife for sex and pretended he wasn't interested anymore (even had sex with other women), she got really horny and kept trying to have sex with him. He was a bit of a dodgy character though so I take everything he said with a grain of salt  

[Sinking_In]

8 minutes ago, Pan Ficto. (on hiatus?) said:

Pretty much, my requirement for me to be able to desire sex is: For a partner to overtly desire me sexually to the extent they masturbate a lot, while also having no expectation or need of actual sex from me. That's the only way to wake my libido up.

I think if I started to masturbate to my wife IRL, she'd be more grossed out than turned on, but then again, I haven't tried it yet.

Maybe I should surprise her tonight?  💣💥☠️

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Sinking_In said:

@Pan Ficto. (on hiatus?) that is interesting, regarding your similarities with my wife. I gotta ask, though (if you don't mind), did  you meet your ace man IRL, or was this online? Just wondering if the build up would work when faced with physical contact as opposed to just intellectual stimulation? Does it seem being desired/ pestered for sex is just simply a turn-off for you (as is the case with my wife), and being ignored (sexually speaking) is a turn-on? I believe these things are more common than one might think, actually, regarding most sexual people, really. Maybe, since I'm becoming sexually disinterested now, our sex life might pick up?  JK, I know I'd never make it.

I honestly am kinda similar to your wife and Pan. And I have a sexual relationship IRL now. But, even the expectation of sex "reset" me and made me feel tired of sex. Knowing it is a give it or take it situation makes my desire spark. Once it sparked, it could be slowly built and now ... just visited my wife for 3 days and, well, we had a very healthy amount of sex ha so it is now "normal" levels for my wife. But, it took a year of no sex, followed by sex only when we both truly wanted it... very low pressure... pressure me and it all tanks to nothing. Put too many expectations it does same. Fights do same. Etc. It has to be the right emotional connection. 

[wyrdwyrm]

I wonder if you guys could try flirting via text or email (or post-it notes)? Not right now, since you both need some time to stop forcing things on both sides, but it might be a fun way to explore some kind of intimacy without the danger (or perceived danger) of it leading to sex? While I've never really pursued a relationship, I know it's definitely easier to relax and be more playful when I'm safe behind a computer screen.

[Sinking_In]

5 hours ago, wyrdwyrm said:

a fun way to explore some kind of intimacy without the danger (or perceived danger) of it leading to sex

Oddly enough, we have no problem being flirty and intimate, physically: touching, embracing, cuddling, kissing, all of it, just not sex. In fact, she actually craves it, and longs for it when she sees others engaged in PDA. When we are with friends and family, we likely come across as a healthy, physically attracted and sexually active couple. She's actually more demonstrative than I am around others (though tame by many standards, I'm sure). It would frustrate me at times (most times, really). I felt like a garage kept muscle car, that gets turned on a few times a week, but only taken out for a drive once in a great while, just around the block, never wide open on the track. Sorry, I like analogies  I'm a very visual oriented person, and my wife is very attractive to me....such is life, no? (Blasphemous Rumors just played in my head)

[Traveler40]

20 hours ago, Ours said:

tread lightly on asking for an open relationship I asked my husband and talk about shit storm. 

This has stuck with me. If I had outright asked or brought it up out of the blue, I suppose my husband would have reacted much the same way. Arriving at the decision to open our marriage took time measured in many years. All conversations as time wore on led to the options before us:

 

1. find a mutually agreeable schedule. 
2. celibacy 

3. open

4. divorce 

 

Having failed at the first across years of attempts, then finding the second a no-go after 8+ years sunk into that option, we arrived at open or divorce. Neither of us wanted to divorce.  At the end of the day, it was years in the making and both parties communicating to solution that naturally led to the open option. Anything else with some folks might lead to a shit storm, yes. Again, it also depends on the folks involved.

 

You have planted a seed the hard way for better or worse though. 

[Sinking_In]

12 minutes ago, Traveler40 said:

All conversations as time wore on led to the options before us:

 

1. find a mutually agreeable schedule. 
2. celibacy 

3. open

4. divorce 

 

Having failed at the first across years of attempts, then finding the second a no-go after 8+ years sunk into that option, we arrived at open or divorce. Neither of us wanted to divorce.

^THIS appears to be where we are, in the same order of conclusions. I know there is a LOT that goes into your own situation, but yours is an inspiration.

[wyrdwyrm]

18 hours ago, Sinking_In said:

I felt like a garage kept muscle car, that gets turned on a few times a week, but only taken out for a drive once in a great while, just around the block, never wide open on the track. Sorry, I like analogies  I'm a very visual oriented person, and my wife is very attractive to me....such is life, no? (Blasphemous Rumors just played in my head)

The classic car analogy is actually a pretty good one!  

[Traveler40]

On 10/16/2019 at 10:04 AM, Sinking_In said:

I know there is a LOT that goes into your own situation, but yours is an inspiration.

So, this has stuck with me. Thank you for your words; I thought a bit about that after you wrote it. I think what is different in our situation, beyond the flexibility in all parties, boils down to mindset and patience. Yes, communication is critical, but the keys to evolving into something (hopefully) better, whatever that may be for the folks involved, are mindset and patience.
 

Many times on AVEN I hear sexuals lament of a life that is less than. In fact, I lived that for years and held onto the fear of change.  However, by nature I always think “I can do better” when faced with a problem. Yes, there is great risk in upsetting the apple cart, but I’d rather take that risk then wonder or wallow. Change is never comfortable, but requisite in my journey. My motto is, “make it great!”.  Here’s to never giving up. 💪🏼
 

As to patience, taking great care to getting it right generally yields a better result. Impeccable execution via planning and communicating, coupled with understanding what you can’t control, allows for a calculated risk worth taking many times. Often, I see lack of patience be the downfall...

[Sinking_In]

I've got to limit my threads, before it's too many to update  I've posted this in my other threads:

Talked to my therapist last night (I see him about once or twice every few years), and we discussed all of this. I was surprised at how well versed he was in polyamory. Unfortunately, he isn't very knowledgeable regarding asexuality. He did offer to find referrals, though, and suggested he find us a couples therapist who is versed in polyamory, and I asked he also add they be knowledgeable regarding asexuality. He has a rule to not see couples if he is already seeing one spouse, which I respect and understand. Plus, I think if my wife sees anyone, they need to know where she is coming from regarding asexuality. I'm not sure if she's willing to see a therapist, just yet, but I'd like to know one is available to us, to her, especially if/ when we decide to open up the marriage. One day at a time. The PDA is still in effect, and it still feels good  

[Snow in the background]

On 10/16/2019 at 2:07 AM, Pan Ficto. (on hiatus?) said:

Petty much, my requirement for me to be able to desire sex is: For a partner to overtly desire me sexually to the extent they masturbate a lot, while also having no expectation or need of actual sex from me. That's the only way to wake my libido up.

It may sound odd..., but this statement sounds romantic and sexy to me.🤷

[Sinking_In]

It is official now, ours is an open marriage. We talked, and it's happening. My therapist found a referral for a couples' therapist for us, and though my wife does feel the need, she said she would go. I'll try and get that set up. I want to make sure she is okay, but according to her, so long as our love doesn't change, and no one is neglected, she is all for it. I trust her to be blunt if she feels any of that change, because she usually is blunt about such things. We'll see where this leads. So for it's led to some dating apps that are, quite frankly, daunting to look at, and a realization that I'm much better in person. I have a feeling my search for a sexual partner, who is safe, sane, and on board is going to take a while. I could quite possibly, inadvertently end up celibate during my search

[anisotrophic]

5 hours ago, Sinking_In said:

I could quite possibly, inadvertently end up celibate during my search

Yeah, I think just having genuine sense of permission makes it a lot easier to chill out on this front. I don't about others, but mainly knowing I *could* was the relief for me; staring at a lifetime resignation was too much. But now I figure, no rush.

[Sinking_In]

@anisotrophic strange how that works, isn't it? Just like knowing she wasn't going to be asked for sex made my wife more affectionate. Taking the pressure off of sex, for both of us, removed a lot of our angst. We're no longer boxed in or cornered. We've both been so much calmer. Of course, this is now. Later, who knows? But we're enjoying it for the time being.

[Sinking_In]

Update: I've had my first polyamory experience, and I dare to say it was really good, with the promise of something ongoing. She was aware of my situation beforehand, as was my wife. It has literally been decades since I've been with a lover like this. I didn't realize how much I had missed it to be honest. I mean, I wanted to have it with my wife so badly, but to actually get to experience it again was amazing. That said, I am keenly aware that there is a distinction between my relationships. Of course, people are human, and emotions can happen, but my wife is my north star. We shared so many intimate moments this weekend, and she even wanted to make love (it's all safe-sex from here on out, and under all circumstances), and no, it didn't feel like "hysterical bonding" at all (I had come across that term in my research). It's like we're falling in love all over again. Things have been so positive, and everyone around us is starting to notice. I'm hoping it all continues along this path for quite some time, but time will tell.